Anger Erupts In Thailand Over Plans For Amnesty

[marstons]

i am sure if there were to be a referendum as to whether he should be allowed to return it would be a massive yes, so hope he comes back. strong hand not a whimp who had a puppet master behind him.

but then again the poor masses who arfe peasnants etc dont deserve democracy and westerners who know whats best for them, because westerners know whats best.

the majority would overwhelmingly want him back. 1 person 1 vote. bring him back.

[RedNIvar]

"Anger erupts", really, where? Apart from the TV forum, I have not really seen any anger erupting. It may just be me then I guess.

What really amuses me when I read threads like this is that, all the huffing and puffing by TV members is in no way going to change the fact that Taksin will be back. He is coming back and as many coups you throw into the country, he and his people with take the following democratic election (by lying, paying off the people or whatever excuse that is normally used). Unfortunately do not see an end to this cycle.

[animatic]

It's so blatant, it's almost comical - though having T return is no joke.

Thailand has a gnarly tradition of PM leaving in disgrace and/or by coups, and then returning again to the PM's seat.

For many decades, it was military tough guys commandeering Thai gov't. Thaksin changes that just a bit. He's a police academy tough guy.

If PT and Ms Yingluck could feel any shame, it would be over this sham amnesty thing. Alas, they only feel elation - that the person who thinks for them is coming back to re-take Thailand's top political seat.

Mostly after being deposed 'most Thai leaders' left, and then quietly came back and lived quietly, and maybe 15 years later made public comments. One or two left and never dared return.

Only Thaksin has made a huge move to take over completely rather than lose face. This is why we have had this huge problem for so many years, his ego is so overwrought, or potentially socio-pathic, he has broken the classic standards of Thai political behavior, for an all or nothing strategy his excessive wealth allows him to attempt.

And this explains why they have had such a hard time dealing with him the last 4 years. No one has acted like this in the past; an unknown quantity.

Edited November 17, 2011 by animatic

[gregb]

Of course resolving the Thaksin question is necessary for reconcilliation of a majority of people and that will mean compromise.

You are very wrong there. That will mean bloodshed. There is no reconciliation of the Thaksin question except through his death. Luckily, we can be certain this will happen within a few decades, and the only questions are how long we have to wait for this resolution, whether someone will speed this event along, and how many other people will have to die during that period to satiate his lust for power.

Thaksin is the root of everything. Thaksin is the crisis. There can be no reconciliation without Thaksin admitting guilt for his crimes, and that will never happen. Ergo, war.

[whybother]

Which PMs in the past have been forced to leave the country and then come back to PM again?

My thai political history isnt so good.

Which PMs in the past have been forced to leave the country?

None in the last 20 years.

[h90]

What is noticeable on the street is that there is no strong feeling about this issue. I cant even find it among people who used to attend PAD demos back in the day. People seem to have a lot of other priorities and to be sick of the whole issue from what I see. Mr. Fuller seems to be refering to anger in certain elite, certain bureaucratic, certain media and certain political circles. From what I see most people dont seem to care whether Thaksin comes back or not. I would also say there are more who want him back than dont. However, obviously it is the job of those who want him back to increase their support and it is the job of those who despise him to create anger and resistance. Default of people who dont care is go with letting him back as it ends the whole saga. That reality needs changing by making them worry about impending armageddon

Of course resolving the Thaksin question is necessary for reconcilliation of a majority of people and that will mean compromise. However, compromise means he does return and unfettered of the decided charge. The rest of the charges and whether he will ever again indulge directly in politics are likely to be the areas of negotiation. The alternative: an increasingly unstable divided country with the old guard losing more and more ability to control things as time goes on

It is all rather sad really and in retrospect it seems many would have done nearly everything differently. Its like one of those shakespeare tragedies

there is not so much worry about Thaksin, people worry about the dictatorship that he'll establish.

[whybother]

What is noticeable on the street is that there is no strong feeling about this issue. I cant even find it among people who used to attend PAD demos back in the day. People seem to have a lot of other priorities and to be sick of the whole issue from what I see. Mr. Fuller seems to be refering to anger in certain elite, certain bureaucratic, certain media and certain political circles. From what I see most people dont seem to care whether Thaksin comes back or not. I would also say there are more who want him back than dont. However, obviously it is the job of those who want him back to increase their support and it is the job of those who despise him to create anger and resistance. Default of people who dont care is go with letting him back as it ends the whole saga. That reality needs changing by making them worry about impending armageddon

Of course resolving the Thaksin question is necessary for reconcilliation of a majority of people and that will mean compromise. However, compromise means he does return and unfettered of the decided charge. The rest of the charges and whether he will ever again indulge directly in politics are likely to be the areas of negotiation. The alternative: an increasingly unstable divided country with the old guard losing more and more ability to control things as time goes on

It is all rather sad really and in retrospect it seems many would have done nearly everything differently. Its like one of those shakespeare tragedies

It sounds like "compromise" from a Thaksin supporter point of view is "Ignore everything bad that Thaksin has ever done".

[gregb]

i am sure if there were to be a referendum as to whether he should be allowed to return it would be a massive yes, so hope he comes back. strong hand not a whimp who had a puppet master behind him.

but then again the poor masses who arfe peasnants etc dont deserve democracy and westerners who know whats best for them, because westerners know whats best.

the majority would overwhelmingly want him back. 1 person 1 vote. bring him back.

Justice is not decided by popular vote. It is a matter for the courts. Voting and personal opinion is irrelevant.

1 criminal, 1 prison term. Bring him back in chains or not at all. End of story. Fairness, justice, equality and democracy all demand it.

[animatic]

Which PMs in the past have been forced to leave the country and then come back to PM again?

My thai political history isnt so good.

Which PMs in the past have been forced to leave the country?

None in the last 20 years.

But you can make educated guess linking from this page

http://en.wikipedia....ers_of_Thailand

See: Deposed by coup, pressured to resign by coup group etc.,

then look up their personal history links.

For instance se Seni Pramoj

Resignation: Controversy of Thanom Kittikachorn's return from exile.

http://en.wikipedia....om_Kittikachorn

" 6 October 1976 massacre and aftermath

Main article: Thammasat University massacreIn October 1976, Thanom returned to Thailand as a novice monk at Wat Bowonniwet. His return triggered student protests which took place on the campus of Thammasat University. The far right, aided by government security forces, stormed the campus and massacred protesters on 6 October 1976. That evening, the military again seized power from the elected civilian government.

Thanom soon left the monkhood but never took a role in politics again.

Later in his life, he made an effort to rehabilitate his tarnished image and recover properties that had been seized when he was overthrown."

Sadly this episode sets a logical and very saddening precedent for Thaksins 2nd return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaek_Pibulsongkram

...coup in October 1958 by Field Marshal Sarit Dhanaraj, who had earlier sworn to be Pibul's most loyal subordinate. Sarit was supported by many royalists who wanted to regain their foothold in Thailand's royalty. Pibulsonggram was then forced into exile in Japan. He lived there until his death in 1964....

Edited November 17, 2011 by animatic

[Pi Sek]

What is noticeable on the street is that there is no strong feeling about this issue. I cant even find it among people who used to attend PAD demos back in the day. People seem to have a lot of other priorities and to be sick of the whole issue from what I see. Mr. Fuller seems to be refering to anger in certain elite, certain bureaucratic, certain media and certain political circles. From what I see most people dont seem to care whether Thaksin comes back or not. I would also say there are more who want him back than dont. However, obviously it is the job of those who want him back to increase their support and it is the job of those who despise him to create anger and resistance. Default of people who dont care is go with letting him back as it ends the whole saga. That reality needs changing by making them worry about impending armageddon

Of course resolving the Thaksin question is necessary for reconcilliation of a majority of people and that will mean compromise. However, compromise means he does return and unfettered of the decided charge. The rest of the charges and whether he will ever again indulge directly in politics are likely to be the areas of negotiation. The alternative: an increasingly unstable divided country with the old guard losing more and more ability to control things as time goes on

It is all rather sad really and in retrospect it seems many would have done nearly everything differently. Its like one of those shakespeare tragedies

Me and you live on completely different streets, clearly. If PT continue you to pursue this amnesty/pardon/whatever resistance from normal people will soon become very visible again, and not just in certain social and print media circles. From what I can see (and have seen all along) is that the majority of people who have been to school see Thaksin for the charlatan that he is, and while these people are arguably the minority in Thailand right now, this is unlikely to last forever.

The time bomb resulting from the general election result that many have been fearing looks like it's in the process of being lit. Even from a politically neutral point of view it's a terrible state of affairs for the country as it's unlikely to see any reasonable stability any time soon.

I personally hope by this time next year I'm observing the situation (or whatever remains of it) from afar.

Yeah, sorry, I also clearly live on a different street to hammered. I have seen a fairly evil reaction in the last 24 hours from those I live around, quite a few of whom are (sorry to say) fairly easily-led anti-Thaksinites. I have been trying to preach reconciliation for the last year and have been gaining some ground but this suggestion of amnesty (especially right now) has absolutely killed any progress I have made.

[scotbeve]

Deficits do not define a banana republic, quite the opposite if the deficits are incurred to provide benefits for their citizens. As Thailand provides little if any support for their poor and elderly, it is quite obvious this is the banana republic. Only the rich get anything and piss on the poor and working class.

+10 Seen it far too often but the last administration was over the top (too stupid to vote for just one example - <deleted>!)

[Insight]

"Anger erupts", really, where? Apart from the TV forum, I have not really seen any anger erupting. It may just be me then I guess.

What really amuses me when I read threads like this is that, all the huffing and puffing by TV members is in no way going to change the fact that Taksin will be back.

He is coming back and as many coups you throw into the country, he and his people with take the following democratic election (by lying, paying off the people or whatever excuse that is normally used). Unfortunately do not see an end to this cycle.

Try here:

http://www.facebook.com/events/177436405680294/

Nearly about to hit 100,000 and that's just in 24hrs.

Like I said before, the (overwhelming) majority of these folk are not "rich elite" people on here try to tar them with, just people who have finished school.

And I'll bet the weekend's beer money on it materialising into real crowds sooner rather than later. And I'm sure this is all anticipated by Thaksin's red army

[noitom]

Thailand is an inbred military dictatorship and kleptocracy. Has anyone considered that this must be some kind of "board game?" In other words, how is it possible that the PAD and other elite business class lovely folks couldn't predict that there would be an initiative to bring the former PM back from his self-imposed exile? Did they have their heads in the sand and/or are they total idiots falling asleep at the opposition switch? This gives rise to the supposition that there was a "back room deal" between PTP and PAD with the army sitting at the table to count the pot. Let's further suppose that there was an "arrangement" that said - look, we need to assure that Bangkok is not flooded so that we can protect the wealth and property of our fabulous elite super rich business class and keep the cash registers ringing, and there is a way to achieve that. In return, let's say that we offer to sign off on a proposal to provide amnesty that includes your man, but we want your assurance that he won't replace you or be designated as DPM. Then with that offer on the table back in July or August, with the floods gaining ground, the mechanics of rerouting the water were put into action by the incumbent, thinking all along, this will never stick. All we have to do is play along and make sure when the music stops that we have a chair.

Then all hell broke loose Thai style. Finger pointing, blame, political gamesmanship with people as pawns, opportunism, and of course, the money game. Everyone now wanted to collect $200 and pass go, and build up their property and roll the dice again. So all the players saw accelerating opportunity in the face of disaster. There is a lot of aid coming in, supplies can be re routed, resources can be squandered, people can be ransomed, property deeds can be changed...and on and on. People on the side of one color started interpreting the signals differently from the people of the other color. With decades of control, even the army was baffled for a while as it took them a while to mobilize in helping the people. Finally, they had to go in. Ruffled feathers, broken promises, reneged arrangements, hot tempers, visions of grandeur, overinflated senses of self importance, alternative game moves, lots of over sized ego, all adding up to a classic "Thai style double cross." But, even though it's written down, what we really meant is.....

The excitement builds, the blustering and puffing get aggressive, threats, disclosures, blackmail....and on and on. The de facto head man panics and calls a play at the line of scrimmage and runs in with a manipulated agreement and amnesty plan with the "I'll show them" attitude and "do you know who I am?". And voila! The Thai style double cross becomes the stalemate, conflict and rumble in the schoolyard. The board game now changes to the good old Texas Hold 'em bluff. The clock is ticking and the army is preoccupied but not unaware. The sitting player needs to find some dough to try to flip the army, while the other side, dough in hand, tries to muster popular support. What a game!! Good old fashioned Thai double cross and fight.

Who will make the next move?

[daboyz1]

Thailand is an inbred military dictatorship and kleptocracy. Has anyone considered that this must be some kind of "board game?" In other words, how is it possible that the PAD and other elite business class lovely folks couldn't predict that there would be an initiative to bring the former PM back from his self-imposed exile? Did they have their heads in the sand and/or are they total idiots falling asleep at the opposition switch? This gives rise to the supposition that there was a "back room deal" between PTP and PAD with the army sitting at the table to count the pot. Let's further suppose that there was an "arrangement" that said - look, we need to assure that Bangkok is not flooded so that we can protect the wealth and property of our fabulous elite super rich business class and keep the cash registers ringing, and there is a way to achieve that. In return, let's say that we offer to sign off on a proposal to provide amnesty that includes your man, but we want your assurance that he won't replace you or be designated as DPM. Then with that offer on the table back in July or August, with the floods gaining ground, the mechanics of rerouting the water were put into action by the incumbent, thinking all along, this will never stick. All we have to do is play along and make sure when the music stops that we have a chair.

Then all hell broke loose Thai style. Finger pointing, blame, political gamesmanship with people as pawns, opportunism, and of course, the money game. Everyone now wanted to collect $200 and pass go, and build up their property and roll the dice again. So all the players saw accelerating opportunity in the face of disaster. There is a lot of aid coming in, supplies can be re routed, resources can be squandered, people can be ransomed, property deeds can be changed...and on and on. People on the side of one color started interpreting the signals differently from the people of the other color. With decades of control, even the army was baffled for a while as it took them a while to mobilize in helping the people. Finally, they had to go in. Ruffled feathers, broken promises, reneged arrangements, hot tempers, visions of grandeur, overinflated senses of self importance, alternative game moves, lots of over sized ego, all adding up to a classic "Thai style double cross." But, even though it's written down, what we really meant is.....

The excitement builds, the blustering and puffing get aggressive, threats, disclosures, blackmail....and on and on. The de facto head man panics and calls a play at the line of scrimmage and runs in with a manipulated agreement and amnesty plan with the "I'll show them" attitude and "do you know who I am?". And voila! The Thai style double cross becomes the stalemate, conflict and rumble in the schoolyard. The board game now changes to the good old Texas Hold 'em bluff. The clock is ticking and the army is preoccupied but not unaware. The sitting player needs to find some dough to try to flip the army, while the other side, dough in hand, tries to muster popular support. What a game!! Good old fashioned Thai double cross and fight.

Who will make the next move?

I think you've watched too many Oliver Stone movies. There's no conspiracy here. She and her ilk have said it from the beginning. Bring him back and get him off the hook. Not sure why people are so outraged here are so surprised and outraged by this. Granted it is so blatant. What can you expect.

"Let them eat cake"

[OzMick]

Deficits do not define a banana republic, quite the opposite if the deficits are incurred to provide benefits for their citizens. As Thailand provides little if any support for their poor and elderly, it is quite obvious this is the banana republic. Only the rich get anything and piss on the poor and working class.

+10 Seen it far too often but the last administration was over the top (too stupid to vote for just one example - <deleted>!)

How do you get 10 votes?

[jimbeam1]

Well now The PT have successfully made Thailand look like a third nation country to the rest of the world.

isn't it still officially a developing country and not a first world country anyway?

maybe --- but developing into what exactly ?

It has already developed.... Into an Newly Industrialised Country. Apparantly that is official according to Wikki?

It appears that the World Bank decides?

jb1

[OzMick]

i am sure if there were to be a referendum as to whether he should be allowed to return it would be a massive yes, so hope he comes back. strong hand not a whimp who had a puppet master behind him.

but then again the poor masses who arfe peasnants etc dont deserve democracy and westerners who know whats best for them, because westerners know whats best.

the majority would overwhelmingly want him back. 1 person 1 vote. bring him back.

Justice is not decided by popular vote. It is a matter for the courts. Voting and personal opinion is irrelevant.

1 criminal, 1 prison term. Bring him back in chains or not at all. End of story. Fairness, justice, equality and democracy all demand it.

Actually there should be quite a few prison terms, given the number of outstanding warrants.

or the alternative equation 1 bullet + 1 head = a lot less problems

[scotbeve]

Deficits do not define a banana republic, quite the opposite if the deficits are incurred to provide benefits for their citizens. As Thailand provides little if any support for their poor and elderly, it is quite obvious this is the banana republic. Only the rich get anything and piss on the poor and working class.

+10 Seen it far too often but the last administration was over the top (too stupid to vote for just one example - <deleted>!)

How do you get 10 votes?

There's 10 of us here... duooh!

[jpinx]

Just google it: Taksin only PM to finish one term. or here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...acific-13891650

Is this not a full term? Just before Thaksin....

(20)

Chuan Leekpai

(1938-)

(2nd Time) 53 9 November 1997 House of Representatives Resolution 9 February 2001 Term Ends: 6 January General Election 3 years, 92 days 20 November 1997 Democrat Party

[OzMick]

Deficits do not define a banana republic, quite the opposite if the deficits are incurred to provide benefits for their citizens. As Thailand provides little if any support for their poor and elderly, it is quite obvious this is the banana republic. Only the rich get anything and piss on the poor and working class.

+10 Seen it far too often but the last administration was over the top (too stupid to vote for just one example - <deleted>!)

How do you get 10 votes?

There's 10 of us here... duooh!

It had occurred to me before this that you were posting for your wife's family.

[scotbeve]

Middle bits left out....

It had occurred to me before this that you were posting for your wife's family.

That's a possibility...

[Nickymaster]

i am sure if there were to be a referendum as to whether he should be allowed to return it would be a massive yes, so hope he comes back. strong hand not a whimp who had a puppet master behind him.

but then again the poor masses who arfe peasnants etc dont deserve democracy and westerners who know whats best for them, because westerners know whats best.

the majority would overwhelmingly want him back. 1 person 1 vote. bring him back.

Justice is not decided by popular vote. It is a matter for the courts. Voting and personal opinion is irrelevant.

1 criminal, 1 prison term. Bring him back in chains or not at all. End of story. Fairness, justice, equality and democracy all demand it.

Correct!

Justice is not decided by popular vote. It is a matter for the courts. Voting and personal opinion is irrelevant.

A country can only develop when justice and personal opinion are seperated.

When Thaksin was in power he always said "I can do whatever I want because the majority of the Thai people have voted for me".

[Insight]

Cabinet Secretary-General Ampon Kitti-ampon was supposed to keep it all confidential about the amnesty royal decree draft raised in the "secret session" of the Council of Ministers on Tuesday. And he did a great job at answering all the questions from reporters without revealing anything.

Q: Was the amnesty decree draft discussed in the secret Cabinet meeting?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Is it a custom to announce amnesty for prisoners every Dec 5?

Ampon: Probably.

Q: Was it just a discussion or was there an approval of the proposed decree?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Will there be a press conference to explain the issue?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Shouldn't this matter be made public?

Ampon: I don't know.

Of course' date=' he did know the answers to all the questions. He should probably have said: "I know but I can't talk."

But he insisted he didn't know.

[/quote']

http://suthichaiyoon.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-cabinet-secretary-general-answers.html

[Buchholz]

Q: Was the amnesty decree draft discussed in the secret Cabinet meeting?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Is it a custom to announce amnesty for prisoners every Dec 5?

Ampon: Probably.

Q: Was it just a discussion or was there an approval of the proposed decree?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Will there be a press conference to explain the issue?

Ampon: I don't know.

Q: Shouldn't this matter be made public?

Ampon: I don't know.

http://suthichaiyoon.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-cabinet-secretary-general-answers.html

He sure is eager to answer any and all questions

Cabinet Secretary-General Ampon Kitti-ampon

.

[chainarong]

One would hope that the gentleman in question buys himself a Cadillac ,like the man who runs the US uses, and thats just to go down to the Chiang Mai Big "C"

[sparebox2]

Suddenly no want talk about the flood crisis anymore. Just like it never happens.

Do you think this is a YS flood control measures? If yes, YS has done a good job.

[jpinx]

In UK the queen has to sign all the laws - iirc - but she has not refused any that I have heard about

[pomchop]

Just google it: Taksin only PM to finish one term. or here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...acific-13891650

Is this not a full term? Just before Thaksin....

(20)

Chuan Leekpai

(1938-)

(2nd Time) 53 9 November 1997 House of Representatives Resolution 9 February 2001 Term Ends: 6 January General Election 3 years, 92 days 20 November 1997 Democrat Party

Good question. I am no expert but i think a full term is four years and this guy was 3 years and 92 days. Notice that BBC report says Taksin is only ELECTED PM to finish a full term. Bottom line is Taksin lasted longer than most all of them. The point was that it appears to me that the military is the one who ultimately decides who will be "permitted" to serve and who will be removed by a coup at their discretion. So for all the angst over Taksin this and Taksin that and what the Thai voters or citizens may or may not want/like it has been the military and a handful of generals that have been pulling the strings for many many years. Why even bother with elections if the military can decide they don't like someone who was elected by the people? How long til the next coup? Who knows but i would not bet against it if past history is an indicator.

[sparebox2]

Just google it: Taksin only PM to finish one term. or here: http://www.bbc.co.uk...acific-13891650

Is this not a full term? Just before Thaksin....

(20)

Chuan Leekpai

(1938-)

(2nd Time) 53 9 November 1997 House of Representatives Resolution 9 February 2001 Term Ends: 6 January General Election 3 years, 92 days 20 November 1997 Democrat Party

Good question. I am no expert but i think a full term is four years and this guy was 3 years and 92 days. Notice that BBC report says Taksin is only ELECTED PM to finish a full term. Bottom line is Taksin lasted longer than most all of them. The point was that it appears to me that the military is the one who ultimately decides who will be "permitted" to serve and who will be removed by a coup at their discretion. So for all the angst over Taksin this and Taksin that and what the Thai voters or citizens may or may not want/like it has been the military and a handful of generals that have been pulling the strings for many many years. Why even bother with elections if the military can decide they don't like someone who was elected by the people? How long til the next coup? Who knows but i would not bet against it if past history is an indicator.

Bull's eye.

[maidu]

Taksin is the ONLY Thai prime minister to finish ONE full term. The ONLY ONE. Would seem to indicate that the ones who truly run Thailand are the generals who can oust anyone they don't like at pretty much any time.

Since when? How many years are you going back? I know little about Thai politial history

Since 1932, 42 head of government changes. That's an average of one every 22.5 months, and that's not including interim governing councils.

Five PM's, including Thaksin, have come back after interim terms of other PM's or ruling councils. Two (Kuang and Thanom) have resurfaced twice. At least four times, there have been governing councils put in place. I count 10 coup d'etats in the 79 year period since absolute monarchy, but I've heard others report as many as 18 coups during that period. Nearly all political top bananas have been military, and most of them have proved to be corrupt, callous, selfish and heavy-handed. Thailand has had a bumpy road regarding its fledgling democracy. It's still trudging along, with much to be fixed.

note: There were at least 5 men who had earlier chaired the PM's seat for longer than Mr. T. I don't where PC got the idea that 'T was the only Thai PM to finish a full term.' His term was interrupted by the Yellows, and then an interim council took over for 88 days. T came back for a few months, but when the coup happened, he was officially a 'caretaker PM.'

Edited November 17, 2011 by maidu