Rule Of Law Takes A Back Seat In Thaksin Passport Drive

[hammered]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

Sales and hits are what it is all about. Media business. Controversy is always a good one. And headlines carefully prepared to gain response are part of it even if they dont reflect the body of the story. Its all business at the end of the day, and dont we just love it;)

[hammered]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Yes, good question. Anyone wish to respond to this critical request?

Reconcialiation for the yellow shirts is reconcilliation on their terms. That is no different from red shirts, Dems, elite, PTP or whetever. They all have their own different ideas of what it is. All of those ideas are political and hence the whole notion of reconcilliation can only be resolved in the poltcial arena, which is fairly obvious anyway. Right now the rules of how that will be resolved in the poltical arena are not agreed on. Reconcilliation cannot be achieved by trying to sideline either reds or Thaksin which is something the yellow shirts actually know and would try to get round by an alternative form of democracy. Reconcillaition also needs to include the Democrat party.

The main players in terms of numbers are the PTP, the reds, Thaksin and the Democrat party. The other players dont have numbers although in the case of the military they have weaponry and the elite have their influence and connections and at the have an alliance with the democrat party. The yellow shirts these days have denounced all of the other players although Thaksin still seems to be number one enemy.

Reconcilliation for a lot of ordinary people just seems to consist of anything that makes the whole thing end from what I see. The problem is how do you reconcile extremes with the question of do you have to reconcile them? Democracy is really a system for resolving differences with a winner and loser if there is no consensus. And of course the winner and loser can change over time. Thailand has for a long time had a demcoracy where all the parties pretty much were the same, had the same ideology if they had any ideology, parties coexisted or even subordinated themsleves to vested interests, MPs changed parties just to always be in government etc. In more recent times this polity unity has developed into a more comabtive system exposing and sidelining the power of the extra-parliamentary players to at least some degree. At some point this will all be moved on with a more adversarial democracy developing not disimilar to what is seen in other countries, and while the influence of extra-parlaimentary players will never go away totoally as in other countires, the nature of who, how and the level of power they have will change if history is anything to go by. The interesting thing is a lot of Thai people say things will be better in the future and seem quite positive in the longer term.

[KKK]

Thaksin - come back, do your 2 years `bird` and then slip quietly into anonymity. It really is that simple!

Agree..and if he had kept quiet after he left Thailand and his sister had not become PM and there had not been such public moves as to pardon him and reisssue his passport he would have disappeared and been forgotten. Revered by those who like him, hated by those that don't, but forgotton. Out of sight out of mind. But because he continually loud-mouthed his innocence, got a puppet PM carrying out his wishes etc. he is in the limelight still after what, 4 or 5 years. What a total idiot.

Edited December 6, 2011 by KKK

[sparebox2]

Since when can a fugitive hold a passport?

[hansnl]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Not the issue.

The question is what the redshirts deem necessary to get Mr T back in busniness, whatever business.

Does not matter what is going on in the country, nor the return of Mr T will do to this country.

You might say, seen the manifestations of the PT government up till now, this is a one issue business.

Solely in business for getting him back in power.

[AleG]

How nice of Red Shirts to insist in reconciliation now.

Where were the calls for it when people were dying on the streets? when their leaders urged them to burn down the country and fight to the last drop of blood?

It's like someone slapping a person on the face and then hiding his hand and asking to be friends... and then feigning indignation when the aggravated person tells them to take their reconciliation and shove it.

The whole "Reconciliation" from the Red Shirts is nothing but a hostage takers demand, do what we say and nobody gets hurt.

Edited December 6, 2011 by AleG

[Skywalker69]

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

I have no idea. Go and ask a yellow shirt.

But a lot of people don't want Thaksin to be whitewashed of his crimes and charges. A lot of people are prepared to accept a Thaksin proxy government, and want to get rid of double standards (from all sides).

There won't be reconciliation with Thaksin in the picture. Whether you think that is right or wrong is irrelevant.

oh i just asked because you seem to know about what the red shirts want to do for reconciliation, so i guessed that you knew about what the yellow shirts want to do too.. are you a red shirt then maybe?...... since you have to go and ask a yellow shirt to know, i take it you have to go and ask a red shirt to know too.

but all pettiness aside, yeah there won't be reconciliation with thaksin looming.

Thaksin or no Thaksin makes no difference.

The red shirts are in power now and they could care less about it.

The only time they will be interested is if it serves their ends.

As it is they are in the driver seat and have nothing to gain from it so kiss it goodby.

Your right, but Khun Thaksin is holding the steering weel.

[Skywalker69]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

Thank you OzMick! 100% agreed!

[Skywalker69]

Thaksin - come back, do your 2 years `bird` and then slip quietly into anonymity. It really is that simple!

Thaksin slip quietly into anonymity.

[tlansford]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

ah yes, the old "military coup as the ultimate check and balance on Thai Democracy" argument. I'm sure that people all around the world agree with this for their own country: Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless... good point.

Edited December 6, 2011 by tlansford

[OzMick]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

ah yes, the old "military coup as the ultimate check and balance on Thai Democracy" argument. I'm sure that people all around the world agree with this for their own country: Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless... good point.

Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless...... even some on this forum..............are completely ignorant of the political situation in Thailand, or take the simplistic view that elections are the be all and end all of democracy.

[tlansford]

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

ah yes, the old "military coup as the ultimate check and balance on Thai Democracy" argument. I'm sure that people all around the world agree with this for their own country: Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless... good point.

Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless...... even some on this forum..............are completely ignorant of the political situation in Thailand, or take the simplistic view that elections are the be all and end all of democracy.

no, you are absolutely right, a coup is the end all of democracy....

[Skywalker69]

OzMick.

I think most westernes are ignorent because the bias reports from Western media during last years uprising.

BBC, CNN and many other media should be ashame of their reports.

[Oberkommando]

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

History suggests otherwise.

Indeed, coups throughout Thai history have been beneficial to several fascist dictators, the military's own self-interests and anti-Democratic movements as well as other interests we cannot discuss.

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Oberkommando

[hammered]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

ah yes, the old "military coup as the ultimate check and balance on Thai Democracy" argument. I'm sure that people all around the world agree with this for their own country: Americans, Germans, Brits, French, Swedes, etc, etc, etc, ... The list is endless... good point.

Most of those countries had brutal wars against their military-state-legal establishments to free themselves and establish demcoracy which was often very flawed at first and took years and decades and centuries even to develop to the point we see today. Hopefully Thailand will dodge this one. No more coups of any kind would probably increase the chances of avoiding more conflict as would allowing demcoracy to develop in its own way even if it means, as happened in other countries, periods of flawed, authoritarian, self serving or corrupt leaders. You dont parachute in a perfect democracy even if one actually exists

[ginjag]

Tiansford #105

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy. The Thaksin family dictatorial rule is not democracy. Democrats rule far from being super efficient (and not long enough in office to put more money into the treasury) was far better than this load of crap---and never mind the crushing defeat--what 48% 5haha. so to my mind better have another FAIR election and change--here impossible--another coup seems to be the only way out of the situation now---the same as the last time Thaksin was at the helm ( REAPING)

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed as well as a bickering session.

[tlansford]

Tiansford #105

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy. The Thaksin family dictatorial rule is not democracy. Democrats rule far from being super efficient (and not long enough in office to put more money into the treasury) was far better than this load of crap---and never mind the crushing defeat--what 48% 5haha. so to my mind better have another FAIR election and change--here impossible--another coup seems to be the only way out of the situation now---the same as the last time Thaksin was at the helm ( REAPING)

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy

Believe what you want. A comedian once joked that such things are akin to f_%king for virginity.

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

[TAWP]

Tiansford #105

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy. The Thaksin family dictatorial rule is not democracy. Democrats rule far from being super efficient (and not long enough in office to put more money into the treasury) was far better than this load of crap---and never mind the crushing defeat--what 48% 5haha. so to my mind better have another FAIR election and change--here impossible--another coup seems to be the only way out of the situation now---the same as the last time Thaksin was at the helm ( REAPING)

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy

Believe what you want. A comedian once joked that such things are akin to f_%king for virginity.

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

Electing a populist, a fascist or a communist is rarely good for democracy either.

[rixalex]

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

There is no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy, assuming that democracy actually existed.

[tlansford]

Tiansford #105

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy. The Thaksin family dictatorial rule is not democracy. Democrats rule far from being super efficient (and not long enough in office to put more money into the treasury) was far better than this load of crap---and never mind the crushing defeat--what 48% 5haha. so to my mind better have another FAIR election and change--here impossible--another coup seems to be the only way out of the situation now---the same as the last time Thaksin was at the helm ( REAPING)

no you are Nearly-absolutely wrong-the coup here is a try to restore democracy

Believe what you want. A comedian once joked that such things are akin to f_%king for virginity.

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

Electing a populist, a fascist or a communist is rarely good for democracy either.

??

that is really amazing. Are you saying that all of these are bad people? populists? I don't know what party you could mean by 'populists', but...

Even communists still are elected regularly in democracies - France has several municiplities which have elected communists and not the UMP or the PS.

And yes, all over the world, there are also far-right parties, participating in elections and democracy. (in the USA, that is even one of the 2 major parties... )

Which is exactly what democracy is about. Participation and representation. Exercising the organs of democracy. It is not about military coups... That is not a "reset" button as some here say... a military coup is just, well, a military coup - nothing to do with democracy.

[TAWP]

Believe what you want. A comedian once joked that such things are akin to f_%king for virginity.

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

Electing a populist, a fascist or a communist is rarely good for democracy either.

??

that is really amazing. Are you saying that all of these are bad people? populists? I don't know what party you could mean by 'populists', but...

Even communists still are elected regularly in democracies - France has several municiplities which have elected communists and not the UMP or the PS.

And yes, all over the world, there are also far-right parties, participating in elections and democracy. (in the USA, that is even one of the 2 major parties... )

Which is exactly what democracy is about. Participation and representation. Exercising the organs of democracy. It is not about military coups... That is not a "reset" button as some here say... a military coup is just, well, a military coup - nothing to do with democracy.

I know mobsters that are great with their grand-kids. So I am not saying that everyone that holds a political view is inherently bad. Some are misguided, some are just under the false belief that they should impose their will on others 'in [their] best interest'.

If you don't understand why populism is a perversion of democracy then just say so and we can have a debate over it. Same goes for Communism and Fascism, but for slightly different reasons.

[pastitche]

Believe what you want. A comedian once joked that such things are akin to f_%king for virginity.

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

Electing a populist, a fascist or a communist is rarely good for democracy either.

??

that is really amazing. Are you saying that all of these are bad people? populists? I don't know what party you could mean by 'populists', but...

Even communists still are elected regularly in democracies - France has several municiplities which have elected communists and not the UMP or the PS.

And yes, all over the world, there are also far-right parties, participating in elections and democracy. (in the USA, that is even one of the 2 major parties... )

Which is exactly what democracy is about. Participation and representation. Exercising the organs of democracy. It is not about military coups... That is not a "reset" button as some here say... a military coup is just, well, a military coup - nothing to do with democracy.

I know mobsters that are great with their grand-kids. So I am not saying that everyone that holds a political view is inherently bad. Some are misguided, some are just under the false belief that they should impose their will on others 'in [their] best interest'.

If you don't understand why populism is a perversion of democracy then just say so and we can have a debate over it. Same goes for Communism and Fascism, but for slightly different reasons.

OK I don't know why "populism" is a perversion of democracy, but I do know why military coups are - they inevitably lead to either military dictatorships or to a civilian government that does not represent the wishes of the electorate

[ginjag]

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

There is no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy, assuming that democracy actually existed.

Come on Tiansford....it's easy to say the thing that on paper is correct....BUT........

To get rid of tyrants you rely on peoples uprisings, ????? or have military coup--even international military, anything is better than Sadam, Gadaffi, etc--but you cannot compare them to Thaksin, BUT the reaping of the country and unlawful management can be seen as similar, even if it's not as brutal (drug killings) aside.

The near total suppression of Thai people, boardering on total dictatorship IS BRUTAL.

How in this country do the people get shut of this family rule..............please do not say by fair elections--impossible. arranging near 50% of the population, bribes manipulation, knowing most are not educated enough to understand until it's too late................................Peoples internal war---thousands are killed.... a coup cost 90 ???

[whybother]

OK I don't know why "populism" is a perversion of democracy, but I do know why military coups are - they inevitably lead to either military dictatorships or to a civilian government that does not represent the wishes of the electorate

Oh ... so the PPP didn't represent the wishes of the electorate. OK.

[tlansford]

Electing a populist, a fascist or a communist is rarely good for democracy either.

??

that is really amazing. Are you saying that all of these are bad people? populists? I don't know what party you could mean by 'populists', but...

Even communists still are elected regularly in democracies - France has several municiplities which have elected communists and not the UMP or the PS.

And yes, all over the world, there are also far-right parties, participating in elections and democracy. (in the USA, that is even one of the 2 major parties... )

Which is exactly what democracy is about. Participation and representation. Exercising the organs of democracy. It is not about military coups... That is not a "reset" button as some here say... a military coup is just, well, a military coup - nothing to do with democracy.

I know mobsters that are great with their grand-kids. So I am not saying that everyone that holds a political view is inherently bad. Some are misguided, some are just under the false belief that they should impose their will on others 'in [their] best interest'.

If you don't understand why populism is a perversion of democracy then just say so and we can have a debate over it. Same goes for Communism and Fascism, but for slightly different reasons.

democracy is a system for selecting representation.

Liberals, republicans, democrats, communists, socialists, greens, nationalists are all parties functioning within the democratic system.

When you claim that one of these parties participating in a democracy is a perversion of democracy, then you don't understand democracy.

[tlansford]

No matter from what position you start, there can be no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy.

There is no sane argument that justifies a military coup as good for democracy, assuming that democracy actually existed.

Come on Tiansford....it's easy to say the thing that on paper is correct....BUT........

To get rid of tyrants you rely on peoples uprisings, ????? or have military coup--even international military, anything is better than Sadam, Gadaffi, etc--but you cannot compare them to Thaksin, BUT the reaping of the country and unlawful management can be seen as similar, even if it's not as brutal (drug killings) aside.

The near total suppression of Thai people, boardering on total dictatorship IS BRUTAL.

How in this country do the people get shut of this family rule..............please do not say by fair elections--impossible. arranging near 50% of the population, bribes manipulation, knowing most are not educated enough to understand until it's too late................................Peoples internal war---thousands are killed.... a coup cost 90 ???

Hammered had a good response regarding Thailand's current state of democratic development.

I will agree with what I think you are saying, that is : it is simple to say what is not going to benefit a democracy - like military coups - but it is difficult to implement, care for, and nurture a democracy. And it can be really hard for a society to steer a democracy out of a "tight spot" which is where some call the military coup a "reset button".

The organs of democracy exist. They should be used, not tossed out with a coup. Simple to say, yes, easy to do, no.

[patjem]

no, you are absolutely right, a coup is the end all of democracy....

Only when democracy is actually in existence, which was not the case, Tom.

I'm sure you are aware that an election that should have been called, hadn't, with Khun_T retaining a caretaker status well beyond the constitutionally-allowed time limit.

[tlansford]

no, you are absolutely right, a coup is the end all of democracy....

Only when democracy is actually in existence, which was not the case, Tom.

I'm sure you are aware that an election that should have been called, hadn't, with Khun_T retaining a caretaker status well beyond the constitutionally-allowed time limit.

details, details, details, but you should at least get them right... The election hadn't taken place because it was scheduled for 4 weeks after the coup. It had been called in the summer.

[lannarebirth]

The organs of democracy exist. They should be used, not tossed out with a coup. Simple to say, yes, easy to do, no.

It was when the organs of democracy got thrown out that a coup occured.