Am I A Bad Employer?

[xen]

I would like to clarify that is a couple of years that I cannot find, here in KPG, any reliable or willing Thai staff, the few I found during the last years were found to be so lazy, or thieves when dealing with the cash machine, or too much proud to take order from a woman or a farang.

So now I take almost only Burmese.

Most of staff I had don't care so much about the money, but they want to stay closer to friends, relatives, boy/girlfriend, etc. And they prefere a less paid but lighter job that a well paid but more difficult and 2/3 hours a day heavier job. This is a fact, both for Thais that for Burmese.

In my experience most of the workers (there are a very few exceptions) absolutely don't care to lern a profession, allowing them to get a better salary, looking for a more high grade job and anyway to work more easily, knowing very well what they are doing.

P.S.:

I work in the kitchen too, cooking, cleaning and peeling vegetables too.

My ex wife and i ran a couple of restaurants in Sydney for quite a few years.She still does. We found our full time staff were generally pretty reliable but would often leave on whim so they can work with a friend even if it was for lower pay or less conditions . We went by Australian labour laws and paid award wages and superanuation unlike many of our Thai competition but that did not stop them from leaving. We would provide partys for Christmas and New Year and a trip to the snow for the day once a year but they would leave to work with another restaurant for les money etc and then start the moving around every few weeks until they came back to us. A lot of them have become good friends .

However Casual staff are something different .Our Friday and Saturday night casual staff were hopeless but my wife would only employ Thai . ( i think because she found it easier to communicate in Thai when the Pressure of mid Friday night is on both the kitchen and front of house pressure. Most of these were Thai Students and a lot of the worse ones were Hi-So Bangkok Thais who could not learn how to do even the simplest of tasks as like Angrid says they are too proud to take instructions from a woman or falung. Some thought they knew how to do everything anyway and were there to chat rather than to wait on customers .And some were too aloof to even talk to farung customers !. Some, we would train up and then they would not turn up because they had an important party to go to or some other excuse , and send somebody else in their place who werealso completly useless and required more training. Most of these students , some who were doing Masters in Business or Marketing or whatever had no idea what it was like to operate a business on a practical level and were too aragorant to learn. Yes, i know - different cultures and all that but operating a business is operating a business.

This is just some of my experiences of Thai staff in restaurants .

[angiud]

IMHO is mostly laziness. "Better a less paid job that a good one but harder"

You're dam_n right - at wages of 19 Baht/hour one would expect life-long loyalty from these lazy buggers. <deleted>, what more do they want, maybe health and retirement benefits on top of your generous offer?

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

[maccaroni man]

IMHO is mostly laziness. "Better a less paid job that a good one but harder"

You're dam_n right - at wages of 19 Baht/hour one would expect life-long loyalty from these lazy buggers. <deleted>, what more do they want, maybe health and retirement benefits on top of your generous offer?

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

it's much easier to tell others how they are not spending enought money than to open a business and understand what it means to take money out of your pocket and pay wages.

[Trapper]

IMHO is mostly laziness. "Better a less paid job that a good one but harder"

You're dam_n right - at wages of 19 Baht/hour one would expect life-long loyalty from these lazy buggers. <deleted>, what more do they want, maybe health and retirement benefits on top of your generous offer?

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

That's more than reasonable, I pay my workers almost exactly the same as you do with the same bonus system and tips etc. But they have the added bonus of free iphones, ipods, cameras and anything else that gets left behind after they clean the rooms when people check out.

[Totster]

Pay a little less, over staff then if 3 go you can still run your business. Accept this is what will happen.

totster

[Sophistichica]

It may be the long hours. 12 hour shifts are not easy. Try splitting it into two hour shifts and see what happens.

I agree with the above. I have a busy bar in Samui and to start with struggled with staff, but now I'm happy to say I have a great hard working team with little to no stealing at all. They work 6/8 hours a day 6 days a week, those with more responsibility get more salary, lowest salary is 7k and the highest is 10k but they all receive a share of the tips at the end of the night which range from 200 - 1,500 baht a day. I provide healthcare for the thai staff but no bikes or accommodation. I have had staff leave higher paid jobs to come and work with me, I guess it's about working with your friends and happiness at work. Lets face it, most of us have come here to be happy and for quality of life, if I cared about money more than happiness I'd still be working in an office in London earning a ridiculous amount of money but miserable as hell.

Even though it's a cliche we are like a family and have become very very close friends. At least 3 of the bar tenders are best friends together so they really have fun at work. I'm not too strict now.. When I first began I was very strict as i'd heard all the rumours about thai staff. I find the less you worry and the more relaxed you are - the more they respect you for it and will in fact go over and above to help you out. One guy said to me when i first opened shop here was "Chill out, you're not in Europe now, you're in Thailand" and it's true. It's a much more relaxed outlook on life here, they're not thinking about longevity or pension plans. They live for the moment and once you understand their way of thinking, I guess the less expectations you'll have followed by nice surprises and loyalty. Don't get me wrong, if they take the piss or if i catch them doing anything wrong they get fines taken from their salaries, I'm no walkover.

However, having said all the above. I RARELY let any of them handle real cash, only delivering to and from the cash machine to the customer. My farang staff handle the money and 'touch wood' i haven't had any problems with them so far.

I do think however, a 12 hour shift is too long, we're all human and 8/9 hour shifts is more than enough. Plus the more staff you employ (to split the shifts with) you can pay the staff less and if some of them leave you won't be left without any staff.

Hope this has helped

[angiud]

Pay a little less, over staff then if 3 go you can still run your business. Accept this is what will happen.

totster

Ihave reached your quota of positive votes for the day so I give my like this way

[lazygourmet]

This has nothing to do with the salary package, worldwide the hospitality industry is suffering from the highest rate of employee turnover.

In South-East, it is a nightmare... and in Thailand it is even worst.

Not talking about the islands where all of the migrants workers are in some way related.

If one decide to leave the island -even if that person is not working on your premises- all the band wagon will follow.

[angiud]

That's more than reasonable, I pay my workers almost exactly the same as you do with the same bonus system and tips etc. But they have the added bonus of free iphones, ipods, cameras and anything else that gets left behind after they clean the rooms when people check out.

I'm looking for a second hand Ipad...

Edited January 7, 2012 by angiud

[janverbeem]

IMHO is mostly laziness. "Better a less paid job that a good one but harder"

You're dam_n right - at wages of 19 Baht/hour one would expect life-long loyalty from these lazy buggers. <deleted>, what more do they want, maybe health and retirement benefits on top of your generous offer?

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

That's more than reasonable, I pay my workers almost exactly the same as you do with the same bonus system and tips etc. But they have the added bonus of free iphones, ipods, cameras and anything else that gets left behind after they clean the rooms when people check out.

When they check out or while they take a shower?

[robsamui]

I would pay them 8000 thai baht per month but pay them only 6000 baht. the other 2000 baht goes into a deposit account which they get every 6 months should they not run away.

that way if they leave within the first 6 months then they shall be out of pocket.

Interesting idea. But from what Anguid says they couldn't care less about this. I have the feeling that the idea of numbers on the paper page of a bankbook might be too abstract for a Thai. And if they are going and actually leaving cash behind, then a bank book won't make a difference.

Sounds to me like just too much work for them (long shifts). But the wages and conditions are really good, I think . . . I'm puzzled . . .

R

Edited January 7, 2012 by Rooo
dual quote.

[robsamui]

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

You've just answered your own question! Add all this up and it comes to 14,000 baht a month. So pay them all 14,000B a month, no tips, no bonus, no recycle money and charge them 10B for each bowl of rice ... pay as they eat.

And work a split shift with fewer hours each time maybe?

R

[theblether]

Robsamui is going the right direction, reduce the hours, increase the amount of staff you have, pay a higher guaranteed wage. I lay you odds that if you did that some of your old staff would come back.

The other benefit of doing that is that with more staff in the labour pool you wont be forced into this critical situation of having to close if two or three skip.

I get the idea / notion that you are a chilled out kind of guy but 12 hour days are not on. I think that is your achilles heel.

[kdadane]

Continue the beatings untill morale improves.

[insertmembernamehere]

This might not be exactly right, but in my experience, it is the one, single sum of monthly salary that actually registers with Thais. Sure, a tip here, a bowl of rice there and so on add up to a bit more, but I bet when asked by their Thai friends how much they make each month they say, "6,000 baht."

I don't have to tell you that in the Land of (Sly) Smiles, money is what it's all about....

By the way, on a personal note, I despise employers who demand that their employees work 12 hours a day (or more) as "normal," without paying anything extra. I see this ALL THE TIME and it's loathsome behavior. I think it's a kind of abuse.

I also detest the common practice here of making new employees work every day for the first month with NO day off, and only in the second month are they allowed maybe 3 days off (for the whole month). I think this is a form of quasi-slavery.

Would YOU work 12 hours a day/night with no days off for the first month and then only a few off the second for UNDER A US DOLLAR AN HOUR?

Of course not, but for the locals it's just another day in paradise....

Edited January 8, 2012 by insertmembernamehere

[koheesti]

IMHO is mostly laziness. "Better a less paid job that a good one but harder"

You're dam_n right - at wages of 19 Baht/hour one would expect life-long loyalty from these lazy buggers. <deleted>, what more do they want, maybe health and retirement benefits on top of your generous offer?

My starting salary is 6000 baht/month, but I have a couple of more than one year girls taking already 8000

plus 50 baht/day for food (1500 baht/month)

plus free flow rice (and believe me, they use it a lot),

plus a bonus of 50 baht every 10.000 baht on the daily gross return (say between 100 to 200 baht a day each),

plus the money of the recycle,

plus the customers tip,

plus some extra from my wallet for new year, Christmas, very good or extra time job, etc.

PS: I pay for them also something more, or the amount of 600 baht/month, that I'm not free to write here

So, make your calculations and leave the irony out of this

That's more than reasonable, I pay my workers almost exactly the same as you do with the same bonus system and tips etc. But they have the added bonus of free iphones, ipods, cameras and anything else that gets left behind after they clean the rooms when people check out.

Or when they go to lunch?

[i now see Janverbeem beat me to it. ]

Edited January 8, 2012 by koheesti

[longtom]

Continue the beatings untill morale improves.

That made me spill my coffee!

[steelerian]

Im not an employer, so dont have the experience of many of you posting before me, but I agree that 12 hour shifts are wrong, and probably a large reason why many staff leave. Especially when after that 12 hour shift is over, they probably rarely leave on time anyway, so a 12 hour shift ends up turning into a 13 or 14 hour shift when busy.

[angiud]

Ok, one of the staff come back yesterday crying sorry. Another one just stay in Samui with the new boyfriend, 2 more just recruited by a big resort here nearby.

The working time is now 12 hours, but actually after a rapid cleaning of the shop at 11.30 they start to survive in the back of the shop until the time the first customers come, this usually is not before 2/3 pm, but the 'real'work start around 6 until 10pm. So for sure the working time is at our western eyes so long (really!) but sometimes is simply wrong to apply our farang view on the local work market.

PS:

This missing staff phenomenon is happening only in ther last 2-3 years. I'm on the business since 2001 and I had staff lasting 6 years too. And now I'm more generous than before.

[Sophistichica]

By the way, on a personal note, I despise employers who demand that their employees work 12 hours a day (or more) as "normal," without paying anything extra. I see this ALL THE TIME and it's loathsome behavior. I think it's a kind of abuse.

I also detest the common practice here of making new employees work every day for the first month with NO day off, and only in the second month are they allowed maybe 3 days off (for the whole month). I think this is a form of quasi-slavery.

Would YOU work 12 hours a day/night with no days off for the first month and then only a few off the second for UNDER A US DOLLAR AN HOUR?

Of course not, but for the locals it's just another day in paradise....

Can't agree with this statement more...

My staff receive their first day off a week to 10 days after starting with me, most of them can't believe they already get a day off and it's this treatment which makes them happy at work and want to stay longer... Just sayin!

[theblether]

Ok, one of the staff come back yesterday crying sorry. Another one just stay in Samui with the new boyfriend, 2 more just recruited by a big resort here nearby.

The working time is now 12 hours, but actually after a rapid cleaning of the shop at 11.30 they start to survive in the back of the shop until the time the first customers come, this usually is not before 2/3 pm, but the 'real'work start around 6 until 10pm. So for sure the working time is at our western eyes so long (really!) but sometimes is simply wrong to apply our farang view on the local work market.

PS:

This missing staff phenomenon is happening only in ther last 2-3 years. I'm on the business since 2001 and I had staff lasting 6 years too. And now I'm more generous than before.

Why dont you do the logical thing then and have the staff arrive at 1.30? They will have the place spick and span before the first customers arrive at 2.30. After this length of time in business you should be able to judge your opening hours better.

I have been in business for 25 years, the one thing I have learnt is you must change with the times.................by your own words you were stable for 6 years, now you are far from it. Having to close a business due to staff abandonment is a first class disaster.

I think you need to move with the times a bit here.

[Spoonman]

This missing staff phenomenon is happening only in ther last 2-3 years. I'm on the business since 2001 and I had staff lasting 6 years too. And now I'm more generous than before.

Why did the original "reliable" employees leave ?

[insertmembernamehere]

So for sure the working time is at our western eyes so long (really!) but sometimes is simply wrong to apply our farang view on the local work market.

Wow....amazing that you still don't get it.

Yes, you are right and quite wrong at the same time. It's the difference you have not understood yet.

"When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave."

[angiud]

This missing staff phenomenon is happening only in ther last 2-3 years. I'm on the business since 2001 and I had staff lasting 6 years too. And now I'm more generous than before.

Why did the original "reliable" employees leave ?

Went back Burma, married and gone, caught stealing, hundread more reasons.

[steelerian]

The working time is now 12 hours, but actually after a rapid cleaning of the shop at 11.30 they start to survive in the back of the shop until the time the first customers come, this usually is not before 2/3 pm, but the 'real'work start around 6 until 10pm. So for sure the working time is at our western eyes so long (really!) but sometimes is simply wrong to apply our farang view on the local work market.

angiud, you are obviously a very confused man.

one the one hand you want western loyalty and work ethics.

on the other hand you want to pay thai wages, and make your staff work 12 hour shifts, 6 days a week, which (I'll do the numbers for you) is a 72 hour working week. correct me if I'm wrong, but the average working week in the western world is far far far from 72 hours.

[Soboringtochooseaname]

One Resort on Koh Phangan charges staff 5 thb/ for every minute late at work.

I wonder how they can keep their staff years after years ?

[itishothere]

It sounds to me like there isn't an answer to this problem - or one that is universally agreed. So how about some experimentation with some of the variables to see if it creates a better place for people to work, and stay?

I know as a westerner I could not work in Thailand. 12 hours a day with just one day off would drive me mad. When I ask people what they do on their day off, they usually say 'sleep'. That is it. Sleep. It sounds like they have no time to do anything else that I would do on a normal weekend. And it is those little things that reinforce my view that I work to live, and not live to work.

I know it is the norm to work 6 days a week. But how about giving them more time off? Maybe another half day occasionally, or one more day a month? Give them sufficient time to perhaps get off the island to briefly visit family/friends if that is possible? Or at least enough time to get their sleep done, and then to actually DO something? Of course adjust pay accordingly if required, which might not be difficult as pay does not appear to be the most important factor here.

As said above, we want western work ethics, so give more western benefits. Although more time off to play might be a bit too western!

[maccaroni man]

It sounds to me like there isn't an answer to this problem - or one that is universally agreed. So how about some experimentation with some of the variables to see if it creates a better place for people to work, and stay?

I know as a westerner I could not work in Thailand. 12 hours a day with just one day off would drive me mad. When I ask people what they do on their day off, they usually say 'sleep'. That is it. Sleep. It sounds like they have no time to do anything else that I would do on a normal weekend. And it is those little things that reinforce my view that I work to live, and not live to work.

I know it is the norm to work 6 days a week. But how about giving them more time off? Maybe another half day occasionally, or one more day a month? Give them sufficient time to perhaps get off the island to briefly visit family/friends if that is possible? Or at least enough time to get their sleep done, and then to actually DO something? Of course adjust pay accordingly if required, which might not be difficult as pay does not appear to be the most important factor here.

As said above, we want western work ethics, so give more western benefits. Although more time off to play might be a bit too western!

there is a way to accomplish more time off with one day off per week. the way i did it was put them on the opening shift the day before their off day and the late shift on their return day. I did this for myself too and it was great, i used the first work day to travel when i got off and then had all day to chill on my official day off and left for the following day.

[steelepulse]

Why not split their shifts or have them start later if really nothing happens much before 2:30? No one wants a long work day even if they aren't actually working, but are still required to be at a specific location.

I have staff working around the house and they work an 8 hour day 6 days/week and I've had them for years.

[insertmembernamehere]

Has any employer actually asked the people under him/her what they need to motivate them to stay?