Forget Gay Marriage; We've More Important Things To Do: Thai Opinion

[tombkk]

Well this thread seems to have caught a lot of attraction. I see there are two posters who are "against" homosexuality. It's like being against the weather, by the way: It has happened forever and is not limited to species, locations and cultures. It is part of nature, and if you are religious, your god made us so.

Let's go into detail:

Fantastic5: You are right, there is no purpose in the sense of reproduction in gay sex. Neither is there in the sex of most straight sex. Like somebody recently quoted on a science forum: "Physics is like sex: There might be a practical outcome, but that's not why we do it."

Alexakap: Very interesting posts, deliberately provocative. You seem to be very interested in matters homosexual, and you give even a few anecdotes where you saw gays. Wow, the guy putting on lipstick in a public bathroom was so important for you! Please check and ask yourself why this is.

I have more straight than gay friends, and they couldn't care less. The reason is that they are firm in their sexuality, they cannot find anything attractive about guys, and they would probably notice that guy with the lipstick in passing but not think further about it. Reason: It does not concern them. Why does it concern you? Why is it so important for you that your kids are not gay?

Oh, and you say you can "sense" if someone is gay. We call this "gaydar" and had a recent discussion about it. People have different opinions, but most say only gay people have it. Others say that straight people can also have it, if they have experience with gays. Now, it seems like you have experience as you are focused on gay people in your surroundings - why do you think this is?

Also, Alaxakap does confirm that Thai society is more tolerant than others, which I agree with. Watch the Western world catch up:

Read this article and especially (if you have the time, it's 30 minutes long) watch the embedded video.

[Rusty2009]

Well this thread seems to have caught a lot of attraction. I see there are two posters who are "against" homosexuality. It's like being against the weather, by the way: It has happened forever and is not limited to species, locations and cultures. It is part of nature, and if you are religious, your god made us so.

Let's go into detail:

Fantastic5: You are right, there is no purpose in the sense of reproduction in gay sex. Neither is there in the sex of most straight sex. Like somebody recently quoted on a science forum: "Physics is like sex: There might be a practical outcome, but that's not why we do it."

Alexakap: Very interesting posts, deliberately provocative. You seem to be very interested in matters homosexual, and you give even a few anecdotes where you saw gays. Wow, the guy putting on lipstick in a public bathroom was so important for you! Please check and ask yourself why this is.

I have more straight than gay friends, and they couldn't care less. The reason is that they are firm in their sexuality, they cannot find anything attractive about guys, and they would probably notice that guy with the lipstick in passing but not think further about it. Reason: It does not concern them. Why does it concern you? Why is it so important for you that your kids are not gay?

Oh, and you say you can "sense" if someone is gay. We call this "gaydar" and had a recent discussion about it. People have different opinions, but most say only gay people have it. Others say that straight people can also have it, if they have experience with gays. Now, it seems like you have experience as you are focused on gay people in your surroundings - why do you think this is?

Also, Alaxakap does confirm that Thai society is more tolerant than others, which I agree with. Watch the Western world catch up:

Read this article and especially (if you have the time, it's 30 minutes long) watch the embedded video.

I like this, very nice and calmly written, i have just done some more reading on Homophobia, and came across one passage saying homophobia can be realated to sexism, rasism and can be classed as a personality dissorder, which can be treated and cured,

I also remember somebody once saying´, Acrophobia and Virtigo, some people have the feeling and urge that they want to jump, maybe this could be related to Mr Alexakap maybe he has the Gay urge, and is openly fighting his own feelings

[Fantastic5]

My fascination with homosexuality is mostly a scientific one, I would welcome a homosexual into my home if I enjoyed his company the Same way I wouldnt welcome a heterosexual person in to my home if didnt find his presents tolerable.

I have briefly explained my opinion of sexual intercourse that doesn't lead to conception.

I have always found it difficult to accept anything that I can't understand, and I don't see the necessity of homosexuality, when I do I will accept it. That goes for bowing to spirit houses, I accept Buddhism as a philosophy and think its a rather wonderful one but don't accept it as a religion. I accept certain arias of Islam, Judaism and Christian as a religion.

I think if somthing is functioning in one way, but has no beneficial function, isn't it better to try and get it to function another way that has a positive outcome? I don't see myself as a bigot, I don't see the need to express yourself in a sexual leading nature in puplic be it heterosexual or homosexual.

I don't go out of my way to affend people, I simply do not understand the positive necessity of it and it counteracts the most necessary Fuction.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Fantastic5

[Jingthing]

...

I don't go out of my way to affend people, I simply do not understand the positive necessity of it and it counteracts the most necessary Fuction.

Fuction (sic), Schmuction. Oy vey. What's to understand? We like d--k! Someone needed to say it.

Debating with you is a black hole. We can't convince you that two men sexing it up can ever create babies because it can't and you are obsessed that the potential to make babies is the only thing of value in human sexuality.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Jingthing

[Rusty2009]

My fascination with homosexuality is mostly a scientific one, I would welcome a homosexual into my home if I enjoyed his company the Same way I wouldnt welcome a heterosexual person in to my home if didnt find his presents tolerable.

I have briefly explained my opinion of sexual intercourse that doesn't lead to conception.

I have always found it difficult to accept anything that I can't understand, and I don't see the necessity of homosexuality, when I do I will accept it. That goes for bowing to spirit houses, I accept Buddhism as a philosophy and think its a rather wonderful one but don't accept it as a religion. I accept certain arias of Islam, Judaism and Christian as a religion.

I think if somthing is functioning in one way, but has no beneficial function, isn't it better to try and get it to function another way that has a positive outcome? I don't see myself as a bigot, I don't see the need to express yourself in a sexual leading nature in puplic be it heterosexual or homosexual.

I don't go out of my way to affend people, I simply do not understand the positive necessity of it and it counteracts the most necessary Fuction.

Dear mr Fantastic 5, or rather Dear Mr Spock, what is to rationalise or not rationalise, what is logical or not logical, at the end of the day we are discussing the love and trust two consenting adults place in each other to marry and share a life together. If they do not produce offspring as a result of this, is it really such a waste of time?

[tombkk]

My fascination with homosexuality is mostly a scientific one, I would welcome a homosexual into my home if I enjoyed his company the Same way I wouldnt welcome a heterosexual person in to my home if didnt find his presents tolerable.

I have briefly explained my opinion of sexual intercourse that doesn't lead to conception.

I have always found it difficult to accept anything that I can't understand, and I don't see the necessity of homosexuality, when I do I will accept it. That goes for bowing to spirit houses, I accept Buddhism as a philosophy and think its a rather wonderful one but don't accept it as a religion. I accept certain arias of Islam, Judaism and Christian as a religion.

I think if somthing is functioning in one way, but has no beneficial function, isn't it better to try and get it to function another way that has a positive outcome? I don't see myself as a bigot, I don't see the need to express yourself in a sexual leading nature in puplic be it heterosexual or homosexual.

I don't go out of my way to affend people, I simply do not understand the positive necessity of it and it counteracts the most necessary Fuction.

You are very honest in admitting that you do not understand it. I do not understand why you would want to live with a women and beget children, but that does not mean that I want to change you. I accept you the way you are, and if it makes you happy to love a woman, and if it makes her happy too, it is good. Therefore, it would be reasonable if you accepted gay people. (You're a bit contradictory in that you say you would welcome homosexuals to your home but continue to say that you don't accept homosexuality as a concept. Please explain this a bit better.)

The relationship with my boyfriend is functioning very well, if you can accept that a relationship goes far beyond the physical aspect. If you see your relationship with your girlfriend or wife as functional in the sense of begetting children, I need to feel very sorry for her, as it makes you emotionless. I don't think that you are, but this is what it sounds like.

I appreciate your open-mindedness, in that you ask what you don't understand.

[Fantastic5]

Hi tombkk, your message did make me look at things in bit of a diferent way.

I would welcome a person in my home as I would like the person/personality of , I can find things in most people that I don't much like, if i distanced my self to such a extent purely on thoughs grounds I would be very lonely, but then again I don't have to be ok with them practising the act I'm not so fond of under my roof.

I understand wanting to be with the someone you have strong intermat feelings for, but if someone can have the same feelings with a person of the opposite sex, from my understanding it would be practical to go the way that is essential to the survival of the species.

In all honesty I would be mortified if I learned of my daughter or sons intention to engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex or even to decide not to have children and not to form a traditional husband, wife and children family.

So I gues it's fair to say 'yes' I feel threatened by homosexuality both for the future of my bloodline and culture.

Maybe someone knows of or has had experiences as a homosexual person whos parents found it difficult to accept and what was the outcome?

[geriatrickid]

I'm Thai English, mixed.

That suprises me. Assuming that you grew up in Thailand, were you never aware that many Thais have a quite bigoted view of mixed-race children? Hard to believe that you would grow up to hold equally bigoted views of other minorities.

Actually quite common. Sorry, but that's what the research shows.

[ginjag]

Hi tombkk, your message did make me look at things in bit of a diferent way.

I would welcome a person in my home as I would like the person/personality of , I can find things in most people that I don't much like, if i distanced my self to such a extent purely on thoughs grounds I would be very lonely, but then again I don't have to be ok with them practising the act I'm not so fond of under my roof.

I understand wanting to be with the someone you have strong intermat feelings for, but if someone can have the same feelings with a person of the opposite sex, from my understanding it would be practical to go the way that is essential to the survival of the species.

In all honesty I would be mortified if I learned of my daughter or sons intention to engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex or even to decide not to have children and not to form a traditional husband, wife and children family.

So I gues it's fair to say 'yes' I feel threatened by homosexuality both for the future of my bloodline and culture.

Maybe someone knows of or has had experiences as a homosexual person whos parents found it difficult to accept and what was the outcome?

You said----''I would be mortified if I learned of my daughter or sons intention to engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex''. Don't you think that your offspring would be mortified knowing you were ???? If you really loved them -you would love them for who they are, not what they do in bed. Many people change feelings in later life not only young people. Some older people start to be attracted to people of the same sex, I hope this doesn't happen to you-or else you would be MORTIFIED. tolerance, acceptance are the words you ought to concentrate on, not mortified, unnatural, horrified,

[tombkk]

Hi tombkk, your message did make me look at things in bit of a diferent way.

I would welcome a person in my home as I would like the person/personality of , I can find things in most people that I don't much like, if i distanced my self to such a extent purely on thoughs grounds I would be very lonely, but then again I don't have to be ok with them practising the act I'm not so fond of under my roof.

I understand wanting to be with the someone you have strong intermat feelings for, but if someone can have the same feelings with a person of the opposite sex, from my understanding it would be practical to go the way that is essential to the survival of the species.

In all honesty I would be mortified if I learned of my daughter or sons intention to engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex or even to decide not to have children and not to form a traditional husband, wife and children family.

So I gues it's fair to say 'yes' I feel threatened by homosexuality both for the future of my bloodline and culture.

Maybe someone knows of or has had experiences as a homosexual person whos parents found it difficult to accept and what was the outcome?

I know lots of homosexual people whose parents had difficulties to accept them, to extent of throwing them out of their house. I also know lots of homosexual people whose parents tried to understand them, under the principle of unconditional love.

I am glad to hear that my previous post made you think, that's all I ask for. You still say that you would be mortified if your children turned out to be gay or lesbian, and I don't expect you to change your whole view of life in a day.

I do believe that the discussions we've had in the past few days in this thread may have an impact on how you view gays, and that would be a great success. Thank you for contributing to this thread, and please come back for questions later.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I have met many gay men who were disowned by their parents, many growing up in families knowing that would happen. It is very sad and they are usually very emotionally damaged from that. My feeling is parents like that are monsters. Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[pxlgirl]

Problem is, those who barely met gay people except what they see on TV or on the street from time to time, stick to the stereotypes that have been presented to them. They come handy, one can easily create some sort of view around it and make everything fit so it matches their opinion.

The truth however, is not as spectacular and exciting as some wish it to be. Gay people have relationships, one night stands and other more or less kinky things straight people do as well. There are some who maintain a long relationship, some who can't keep a partner for more than a week. Some are a happy and loving couple, some are in toxic and abusive constellations, pretty much like any straight couples who face the same hopes and worries. It sounds so common and not exciting at all. Again, stereotypes come handy, they kinda spice it up make it look like it's something oh so special.

The fact that gay people cannot reproduce the traditional way doesn't make them more or less natural. Anyone who doesn't reproduce for whatever reason can actually help to raise others in case of a loss of parents. Someone can raise their siblings (who are genetically the same as if they had children of their own) as well as other relatives or even orphans. But despite of biological aspects, reproduction is cultural matter. A few decades ago, a woman in western society had absolutely no say if she wants to reproduce or not. She had no choice, men have decided beforehand for her. After she finally had a some sort of freedom of choice by preventing pregnancy, the old way of thinking is still deeply rooted within both genders. A woman who decides not to have kids, is still not exactly accepted, as there always be some who try to convince her that she still might change her mind one day... Those who want to be in power to decide over such things are in fear of losing power, and now those gay people come along wanting another piece of the pie... Scary, isn't it?

And there's this thing about straight men fearing that a gay man might "hit on them". Dear men, just think about women for a second, who have to face those kind of "hittings" from your fellow straight friends on a regular basis. Consider yourself lucky that you don't have a dozen of guys luring from around the corner, undressing you in their thoughts, making stupid sexist comments and other annoying stuff. Many women have developed a few effective ways to defend themselves unless a man is up to much worse things... So get over it, stop whining and move on ladies.

One thing can't be unmentioned though. There is always the other side of the story. The gay movement has made one big mistake over decades. By forming a community of its own, creating certain outer appearances don't do very well if the goal is to be accepted within a society. Instead, it feeds stereotypes and rather scare off those who never had any contact with gays before. By showing how much a gay person tries to "break" so called traditional gender roles, they push themselves in the corner. One would wonder, why do gay men look like bad copies of women and why do lesbians look like a mismatched wannabe male? If it was all about style and taste, that wouldn't be that much of a big deal, but in fact these are some serious gender role issues and a topic of its own. Yes, we all should live the way we want, but on the other hand, a society does have certain values and if acceptance and tolerance what gays want, they also should adapt to certain things. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean that one has to obey the masses, just be aware of the reactions something might cause. The result might not be as good as originally wished for. So just be who you are, do what you really believe in and do not let the gay or straight world label you too much. Those who are not into the whole "community" thing might understand where I'm going here.

Edited January 16, 2012 by pxlgirl

[Jingthing]

...

One would wonder, why do gay men look like bad copies of women and why do lesbians look like a mismatched wannabe male?

...

That's really funny to me, because a gay man that looked like a woman, bad copy or good copy, would be of absolutely no sexual interest to me or I presume most western gay men anyway.

Of course as mentioned before these kinds of "norms" vary widely over different cultures. The mainstream gay culture in the Philippines has gay men presenting as feminine with the typical dream being to couple with a so called real man. This real man is seen as heterosexual. What a miserable setup that is. Not the butch-femme attraction so much as the idealization of having a straight man as a lover. They describe two gay men together as lesbians. Of course with a transgender person (as opposed to a feminine presenting gay man) really presenting as a woman, they can actually realistically hope for a real heterosexual lover.

I have to admit I make a judgment about gay cultures like the Philippines (similar situations exist in Latin America). To me that style of gay culture represents an acting out of internalized homophobia forced on them by living in a macho homophobic culture. I just can't see how gay men only being happy loving straight men is an emotionally healthy model.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

Yes, I have met many gay men who were disowned by their parents, many growing up in families knowing that would happen. It is very sad and they are usually very emotionally damaged from that. My feeling is parents like that are monsters. Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse.

I agree. I could never understand parents that would abandon their children for being gay or lesbian.

[pxlgirl]

Of course as mentioned before these kinds of "norms" vary widely over different cultures. The mainstream gay culture in the Philippines has gay men presenting as feminine with the typical dream being to couple with a so called real man. This real man is seen as heterosexual. What a miserable setup that is. Not the butch-femme attraction so much as the idealization of having a straight man as a lover. They describe two gay men together as lesbians. Of course with a transgender person (as opposed to a feminine presenting gay man) really presenting as a woman, they can actually realistically hope for a real heterosexual lover.

You do have a valid point here, it's like homophobia upside down within one's own territory. Even the butch-femme couples face this issue. For those who are not aware, butch-femme represents a couple of two women, one looking masculine, the other feminine. It's like a mimicry of rather traditional straight roles and values, even though we all should know that those don't exactly promote equality. Equality should be one of the core values for any kind of relationship between two people.

Edited January 16, 2012 by pxlgirl

[Jingthing]

If people are enjoying those roles, I'm all for freedom no matter how it looks to the world. Its just that I strongly suspect the origin of those roles comes from a not so ideal and free societal situation. Of course, there are limits for all people, perhaps gay people more so, always being a tiny minority having to find ways to survive in sometimes very hostile environments.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

Yes, I have met many gay men who were disowned by their parents, many growing up in families knowing that would happen. It is very sad and they are usually very emotionally damaged from that. My feeling is parents like that are monsters. Emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse.

I agree. I could never understand parents that would abandon their children for being gay or lesbian.

We've got a gay magazine in the UK called 'Attitude'. Once a year they have the 'Youth Edition'. Some of the stories in it make you want to weep. 15 year olds who spent the previous 6 months working up the nerve to tell their parents they're gay slung out on the street in the clothes they stand in. Beatings, 'treatment'. Some of these parents ought to be neutered. They don't deserve the enormous privilege of bringing children up, gay or not.

[endure]

I have to admit I make a judgment about gay cultures like the Philippines (similar situations exist in Latin America).

Apart from macho culture the Philippines and most of South America have the teachings of the Catholic church to contend with.

[tombkk]

I have to admit I make a judgment about gay cultures like the Philippines (similar situations exist in Latin America).

Apart from macho culture the Philippines and most of South America have the teachings of the Catholic church to contend with.

That's why I always wondered how Argentina allowed gay marriage. It appears that some Catholic-majority countries can indeed be tolerant and accepting.

[Rusty2009]

...

One would wonder, why do gay men look like bad copies of women and why do lesbians look like a mismatched wannabe male?

...

That's really funny to me, because a gay man that looked like a woman, bad copy or good copy, would be of absolutely no sexual interest to me or I presume most western gay men anyway.

Of course as mentioned before these kinds of "norms" vary widely over different cultures. The mainstream gay culture in the Philippines has gay men presenting as feminine with the typical dream being to couple with a so called real man. This real man is seen as heterosexual. What a miserable setup that is. Not the butch-femme attraction so much as the idealization of having a straight man as a lover. They describe two gay men together as lesbians. Of course with a transgender person (as opposed to a feminine presenting gay man) really presenting as a woman, they can actually realistically hope for a real heterosexual lover.

I have to admit I make a judgment about gay cultures like the Philippines (similar situations exist in Latin America). To me that style of gay culture represents an acting out of internalized homophobia forced on them by living in a macho homophobic culture. I just can't see how gay men only being happy loving straight men is an emotionally healthy model.

please do not presume anything, me personaly i do not like the clone leather wearing men, or should we see the village people as role models?

[Rusty2009]

has anyboby been following the Aussie tennis open, things are hotting up over gay rights http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/australianopen/9018707/Laura-Robson-makes-equal-rights-statement-at-Australian-Open.html

[Jingthing]

...

One would wonder, why do gay men look like bad copies of women and why do lesbians look like a mismatched wannabe male?

...

That's really funny to me, because a gay man that looked like a woman, bad copy or good copy, would be of absolutely no sexual interest to me or I presume most western gay men anyway.

Of course as mentioned before these kinds of "norms" vary widely over different cultures. The mainstream gay culture in the Philippines has gay men presenting as feminine with the typical dream being to couple with a so called real man. This real man is seen as heterosexual. What a miserable setup that is. Not the butch-femme attraction so much as the idealization of having a straight man as a lover. They describe two gay men together as lesbians. Of course with a transgender person (as opposed to a feminine presenting gay man) really presenting as a woman, they can actually realistically hope for a real heterosexual lover.

I have to admit I make a judgment about gay cultures like the Philippines (similar situations exist in Latin America). To me that style of gay culture represents an acting out of internalized homophobia forced on them by living in a macho homophobic culture. I just can't see how gay men only being happy loving straight men is an emotionally healthy model.

please do not presume anything, me personaly i do not like the clone leather wearing men, or should we see the village people as role models?

Hey, there, you just presumed something I didn't say. When a gay man isn't attracted to a man presented as a woman, does it follow that he only likes butch drag? Of course not! And I never said or implied such a thing. What I did mean, which I will clarify, and I think it is true, is that in mainstream WESTERN gay male culture, as in American/European/Australian etc. those modern men self identified as GAY MEN (a relatively modern identity concept in itself) prefer men who do not self present as women. Within not presenting as women, there is of course a huge range of personal ways to ... not present as women. Including being an effeminate male, again that is not the same thing as presenting yourself to the world as a woman. Simple as that. No more, no less. Edited January 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

has anyboby been following the Aussie tennis open, things are hotting up over gay rights http://www.telegraph...alian-Open.html

Interesting, thanks. Good for the young lady.

[Rusty2009]

This is not a hi jack of gay marriage

But i think i have found the perfect wife for Mr Alexakap,( who has been very quiet lately), her name is Margret Court,

http://www.crikey.co...ustralian-open/

i would like to hear, from any Aussies straight,gay,bi or the third gender-sex, what they think of Mrs Court and her views on gay marriage

Edited January 17, 2012 by Rusty2009