Reasonableman Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sounds like we need a referendum of the whole world to settle this one, if we're not satisfied with one man's word against 12. <deleted>! Not facts, one mans opinion, I'll take 12 everyday, man on the street, AMERICAN jurors with no personal agenda who heard the evidence first hand over ANY one RUSSIAN consul anytime.. Yes, thats it. 12 average American think Bout is guilty. That is not the whole world, nor is it evidence for an actual guilt that could stand any other non-American jurisdiction. Like in Russia for example, they wouldn't even open a case about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 He didn't do any crime? That's news to the rest of the world.... He did do crimes, and was convicted of them in the most balanced legal system in the world (take note, I didn't say perfect).. Civilized governments should respect other countries legal systems and rule of law to extradite those criminals for trial if the charge is valid and accompanied by reasonable proof which is what happened in this case.. I'm looking forward to your agreement with any future claim of extradition by Iran of U.S. or Israeli officials for supporting terrorism by directly founding several armed groups inside Iran's borders. The bold type should exclude you from your wait then... Starting wars, imprisoning people for victimless crimes, executing retarded people, long history of human abuse and segregation. Civilized you said? According to who? You either play in the international arena or you don't. You want to both have the cake and eat it. Don't complain when others will not follow your wish then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopnarak Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That seals it then!!! We heard from the RUSSIAN Consul... I wish the US government had saved us poor tax payers all that money and trouble and just asked him to begin with Yes, he isn't guilty for the rest of the world. He is just guilty in the eyes of an American jury (add any smiley of your choice to show respect and make clear that you are free of any nationalistic bias). Ok keep telling yourself that if it'll help you sleep better at night, but the reality is, he is guilty and in prison in solitary confinement until his sentencing.. Keep telling yourself that its the MOST balanced legal system, in the MOST CIVILIZED country in the world and show your disrespect for anything that is non-American if you think that would convince anyone in the rest of the world. Thats fine for me, as long you don't start accusing me of being anti-American. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sounds like we need a referendum of the whole world to settle this one, if we're not satisfied with one man's word against 12. <deleted>! Not facts, one mans opinion, I'll take 12 everyday, man on the street, AMERICAN jurors with no personal agenda who heard the evidence first hand over ANY one RUSSIAN consul anytime.. Yes, thats it. 12 average American think Bout is guilty. That is not the whole world, nor is it evidence for an actual guilt that could stand any other non-American jurisdiction. Like in Russia for example, they wouldn't even open a case about this. And that's more then likely a mix of 12 people of formerly different nationalities who are now American citizens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 He didn't do any crime? That's news to the rest of the world.... He did do crimes, and was convicted of them in the most balanced legal system in the world (take note, I didn't say perfect).. Civilized governments should respect other countries legal systems and rule of law to extradite those criminals for trial if the charge is valid and accompanied by reasonable proof which is what happened in this case.. I'm looking forward to your agreement with any future claim of extradition by Iran of U.S. or Israeli officials for supporting terrorism by directly founding several armed groups inside Iran's borders. The bold type should exclude you from your wait then... Starting wars, imprisoning people for victimless crimes, executing retarded people, long history of human abuse and segregation. Civilized you said? According to who? You either play in the international arena or you don't. You want to both have the cake and eat it. Don't complain when others will not follow your wish then. My wish? No the civilized worlds wishes friend.. When you live in ANY community you have to abide by the laws of that community and try to be civil with your neighbors or in essence they'll teach you civility or make your life so miserable that you decide to move on.. The community in this case is the civilized world of which numerous countries (mostly in the middle east) such as Iran continue to scorn and deny kicking and screaming like attention starved children by required to go to school.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That seals it then!!! We heard from the RUSSIAN Consul... I wish the US government had saved us poor tax payers all that money and trouble and just asked him to begin with Yes, he isn't guilty for the rest of the world. He is just guilty in the eyes of an American jury (add any smiley of your choice to show respect and make clear that you are free of any nationalistic bias). Ok keep telling yourself that if it'll help you sleep better at night, but the reality is, he is guilty and in prison in solitary confinement until his sentencing.. Keep telling yourself that its the MOST balanced legal system, in the MOST CIVILIZED country in the world and show your disrespect for anything that is non-American if you think that would convince anyone in the rest of the world. Thats fine for me, as long you don't start accusing me of being anti-American. It's clear you have a bias against America/Americans and the justice system but understandable of people who have no understanding of a balanced legal system. JFYI don't misqoute me, I never said "most civilized" so stick to the points at hand or you loose the debate and credibility.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z12 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? Weapons running a victimless crime, too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? Weapons running a victimless crime, too funny. It is either a crime in all cases or not a crime in all cases. Why is it that some people just love double-standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopnarak Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? Weapons running a victimless crime, too funny. It is either a crime in all cases or not a crime in all cases. Why is it that some people just love double-standards? ... American standard. They love American standard. Some people love it, at least. Edited February 11, 2012 by gopnarak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? Weapons running a victimless crime, too funny. If it weren't so tragic it might be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yes they were, definitely many victims and besides have you ever heard of intent? Weapons running a victimless crime, too funny. It is either a crime in all cases or not a crime in all cases. Why is it that some people just love double-standards? ... American standard. They love American standard. Some people love it, at least. Is there any other valid kind?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Detention hearing postponed for Russian arms dealer NEW YORK — A US federal court in New York postponed a decision on whether to modify detention conditions for convicted Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout. Judge Shira Scheindlin scheduled the hearing to address a complaint from Bout's defense attorneys about harsh conditions at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York, where Bout has been imprisoned for more than a year. Scheindlin plans to reschedule the hearing soon, court sources told AFP. "The judge did not make a decision," the source said. Scheindlin rejected an appeal last Wednesday by Bout's defense team to dismiss the November 2 conviction against him. He is set to be sentenced March 12 on four charges for which he faces 25 years to life in prison. Bout, 45, is accused of being the largest clandestine arms dealer in the world. The former pilot and translator for the Soviet military was arrested in 2008 in Bangkok, Thailand. He was flown to the United States in 2010 after a long legal battle to extradite him from Thailand that created tensions between Washington and Moscow. Bout says he only transported arms as part of a legitimate air cargo business. Bout was convicted of trying to sell surface-to-air missiles and other weapons to undercover agents. The agents posed as Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia guerrillas who planned to use the weapons against US counter-narcotics agents. -- (c) Copyright AFP 2012-02-11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z12 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) "Bout says he only transported arms as part of a legitimate air cargo business." An admission of GUILT. He knew what his cargo was. Edited February 11, 2012 by z12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 <deleted>! Not facts, one mans opinion, I'll take 12 everyday, man on the street, AMERICAN jurors with no personal agenda who heard the evidence first hand over ANY one RUSSIAN consul anytime.. Yes, thats it. 12 average American think Bout is guilty. That is not the whole world, nor is it evidence for an actual guilt that could stand any other non-American jurisdiction. Like in Russia for example, they wouldn't even open a case about this. It seems that you are slowly getting to the obvious. That is why he is an american prison, and not one in some other part of the world. Like most countries, the US gaols those who break their laws, and could not care less what the rest of the world thinks. BTW the missiles he purported to have for sale are just as effective at shooting down airliners during take-off and landing. As a frequent flyer, I don't trust the worthy FARC gentlemen to sell them on to some other radical idiot with a mindless cause, and wholly support the actions of the US (in this case) though it is beyond me why they didn't just blow the mongrel's brains out in the hotel room and walk quietly away, saving us all from the pointless discussion (go back to 3rd sentence). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z12 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) I thought russians said American prisons were like paradise? Edited February 11, 2012 by z12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopnarak Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I thought russians said American prisons were like paradise? No, Americans said that. And that all is for FREE. Its in one of yesterdays posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z12 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) I thought russians said American prisons were like paradise? No, Americans said that. And that all is for FREE. Its in one of yesterdays posts. No a russian said it in some steven seagal movie. Edited February 11, 2012 by z12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyserSoze01 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 " Victor Bout has been in solitary confinement for over a year." Anyone guess why the prison would decide to do that? Seems a bit excessive. Perhaps he'd prefer a Japanese or Korean prison; I know someone who spent 7 years in a Japanese prison in complete solitary for 7 years. I agree about missing what he can buy in a Thai prison. If you can't do the time; don't do the crime. His only crime was acting as the primary broker for the CIA, for nearly 20 years, supplying them with weapons for overseas adventures. The US government is a very fickle, and unreliable friend. Utter nonsense unless you have a link to prove your claim, which you cannot produce. There is a vast difference between petty allegations and the truth. The US is the largest arms dealer on the planet. Why would they need a Russian arms dealer to ply their trade. Viktor Bout was caught selling arms to a known terrorist organization (FARC) and is now paying the price (according to the evil empire). As for the title of this thread, "Viktor Bout prefers Thai Prison", well that comment does not exist in any of the text of the linked articles. Yet again, more creative license by the Thai media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airconsult Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 " Victor Bout has been in solitary confinement for over a year." Anyone guess why the prison would decide to do that? Seems a bit excessive. Perhaps he'd prefer a Japanese or Korean prison; I know someone who spent 7 years in a Japanese prison in complete solitary for 7 years. I agree about missing what he can buy in a Thai prison. If you can't do the time; don't do the crime. His only crime was acting as the primary broker for the CIA, for nearly 20 years, supplying them with weapons for overseas adventures. The US government is a very fickle, and unreliable friend. Utter nonsense unless you have a link to prove your claim, which you cannot produce. There is a vast difference between petty allegations and the truth. The US is the largest arms dealer on the planet. Why would they need a Russian arms dealer to ply their trade. Viktor Bout was caught selling arms to a known terrorist organization (FARC) and is now paying the price (according to the evil empire). As for the title of this thread, "Viktor Bout prefers Thai Prison", well that comment does not exist in any of the text of the linked articles. Yet again, more creative license by the Thai media. Just a couple of things that occur to me..... from another article, it appears that perhaps the US does not deal directly government to government with small arms - If they use private brokers for that... could they have used Viktor in the past? "The Stockholm data includes sales of things like tanks, military helicopters, and fighter aircraft. But it doesn't include small arms and dual-use equipment, which are often sold through brokers rather than by direct government-to-government arrangements." http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/2011/01/us-far-outstrips-china-in-arms-sales-to.html "The lawyer referred to conditions of Bout’s detention in New York as “barbarian,” compared to those of the Thai prison where Bout spent about two years." I think that section of the first article is sufficient license for the title of the topic? Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyserSoze01 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 No victim, no crime :-P Were the missiles sold/used? You ever hear of "intent" or "conspiracy to commit". Both are crimes in civilized nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gopnarak Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 ... creative license by the Thai media. What Thai media? Typical Thaivisa forum Thai bashing comment that makes no sense. Some people here just dream things up and than accusing others of posting 'utter nonsense'. Unbelievable. Btw. Bout never talked with any FARC members. Thats another fantasy repeated here in this thread, but not true. So he was never caught selling weapons to them. Where did you got your creative license from? America? Right? You are correct on the title of the thread. It appears that Webfact took the creative license as this news article was not linked to a Thai news article, which is normally the case. As far as Bout not having any contact with the FARC, just how do you know this? Have you ever been to Colombia? Do you know anything of the FARC or the ELN and how they came into existence or are you just blowing it out of your rear end. Having lived in Colombia for a number of years and witnessed the results of FARC bombing attacks, I can provide my own anecdotal evidence, although it would most likely fall on deaf ears. Bottom line is you are full of sh*t and you know it. Yes, I am a citizen of the US, so what. What's your nationality? 1. Not webfact used a creative license to made this to a Thai media article. All that happened just in your head. your perception, your bias. 2. The US has no evidence that Bout ever met any FARC members and talked with them about weapon deals. 3. You are an US citizen. I am not. I have the ability to take and to understand different viewpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I thought russians said American prisons were like paradise? No, Americans said that. And that all is for FREE. Its in one of yesterdays posts. No a russian said it in some steven seagal movie. That's because Bout was in the elite in his country so he never saw the inside of his own, so nothing to really compare to.. Personally I'm glad to hear they aren't a paradise I'd hate to be paying for this guys life of leisure.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well they do use small arms dealers and some of other nationalities but there are still boundaries and limitations in that like not selling to both sides and rightfully so, so no free lancing is permitted.. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone with business or moral ethics though.. So being a true capitalist and selling to any buyers is wrong - selling to one side, be it murderous and immoral, is right? Are we on the other side of the looking glass here? Apologists really scape the barrel to declare their warped views as right and morally right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 USA is not gun-runners? So if we can show that any arms from the US has landed in the arms of 'bad' people we can openly declare you not only a liar but your whole defense as null and void? Not even close to logical so give it another try because a "gun runner" is breaking the law silly.... It's a matter of semantics I know but the law distinguishes from a legal sale versus an illegal sale and the "gun runner" is generally considered taking the illegal approach... but the law distinguishes from a legal sale versus an illegal sale If the government becomes a law breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means 'to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal' would bring terrible retribution. From dissenting opinion in Olmstead vs. United States, in which the court upheld the use of wiretaps in a case involving an investigation of bootlegging. Brandeis strongly defended the individual right to privacy from government intrusion. -Louis D. Brandeis, 1928 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonableman Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Brandeis lost that argument bigtime. Look at how government intrudes on every aspect of human life, even areas of human activity that are victimless and without social impact. Gun-running does not fall within this group of activities, however. USA is not gun-runners? So if we can show that any arms from the US has landed in the arms of 'bad' people we can openly declare you not only a liar but your whole defense as null and void? Not even close to logical so give it another try because a "gun runner" is breaking the law silly.... It's a matter of semantics I know but the law distinguishes from a legal sale versus an illegal sale and the "gun runner" is generally considered taking the illegal approach... but the law distinguishes from a legal sale versus an illegal sale If the government becomes a law breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means 'to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal' would bring terrible retribution. From dissenting opinion in Olmstead vs. United States, in which the court upheld the use of wiretaps in a case involving an investigation of bootlegging. Brandeis strongly defended the individual right to privacy from government intrusion. -Louis D. Brandeis, 1928 Edited February 12, 2012 by Reasonableman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Off topic posts have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefBEM Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 After living in Asian countries/cultures for over 40 years, it remains amazing to me how so many expats are so bitter, ilinformed, and lack tne motivation to find the truth in any situation. However, the lack of truth and the lack of knowledge does not keep these few expats from attempting to influence others based on their individual bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamboking Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Here is no simple answers. How do you know that he is bad guy? From media? Do you really trust media? I believe that in fact nobody care what he's doing, it's only abou business, about competition. Another concpiracy theorist ???? where do you pop up from ? You have problems about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamboking Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Here is no simple answers. How do you know that he is bad guy? From media? Do you really trust media? I believe that in fact nobody care what he's doing, it's only abou business, about competition. Everything is about Competition With remarks like yours You have proved you are in competition with other fools to be the head fool. Smartest opinion here, yeah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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