Prem Accord Leaves The Red Shirts Simmering

[rixalex]

No serious social commentator or analyst agrees with you.

Sorry but it always makes me chuckle when you see fit to line up all the academic heavy-weights behind you.

The current split in the redshirt movement also makes your position untenable.

That there is infighting going on within the movement could prove all sorts of things. Could simply mean that they are badly organised. You read what you want to read into it.

What it has done however is to ensure the Thai majority can never be condescended to, ignored. patronised and exploited ever again - by a greedy, unrepresentative and corrupt set of unelected elites..

Nonsense. The Thai majority remains condescended to, ignored. patronised and exploited, only minor difference being that on this occasion they had a more direct hand in choosing which corrupt greedy group would be doing the ignoring, patronising and exploiting. Guess some will celebrate that tiny shift. I see it more as a sideways move that in real terms will yet again do nothing for democracy or for the people.

[jayboy]

Sorry but it always makes me chuckle when you see fit to line up all the academic heavy-weights behind you.

Not just academic heavyweights but all serious commentators.By all means chuckle away but I note you can't reference one respected source that goes along with your version of recent Thai history.

Incidentally it is a demonstrable rule of history that people preder to be governed by those they choose regardless of how flawed that government is.

[jayboy]

You speak of one "PAD admirer". And then you speak of others that no longer admire them.

Pease read my post more carefully.It was perfectly clear, particularly on why some PAD supporters are more guarded now in giving overt support.

[whybother]

You speak of one "PAD admirer". And then you speak of others that no longer admire them.

Pease read my post more carefully.It was perfectly clear, particularly on why some PAD supporters are more guarded now in giving overt support.

"guarded in giving overt support" ... Do you mean, no longer admire them?

Just because people used to support someone, does that mean that they have to support them forever?

[rixalex]

Not just academic heavyweights but all serious commentators.By all means chuckle away but I note you can't reference one respected source that goes along with your version of recent Thai history.

My position isn't one of, "nothing has changed", but rather one of, "things have changed, but whether it will lead to long term gain in terms of democracy and in terms of the lives of those most in need, remains to be seen", and i have yet to read anyone who i take seriously saying anything much different from that.

Incidentally it is a demonstrable rule of history that people preder to be governed by those they choose regardless of how flawed that government is.

Is it "Stating the Obvious Day" today?

Of course they do. But that is like being able to choose who will rob you. You still end up being robbed.

[OzMick]

You speak of one "PAD admirer". And then you speak of others that no longer admire them.

Pease read my post more carefully.It was perfectly clear, particularly on why some PAD supporters are more guarded now in giving overt support.

Perhaps in your sophistication you overlook that the labels you apply to others don't always fit - that a PAD admirer might change their views as political organisations change their goals.

But NO, the yellow stain remains, and now our support is covert.

[h90]

Communism bubbles under in parts of Isaan still today, and were the political stance of the reds to be obviously that way, there is no way that the army would countenance them having any significant political role. It is one thing for Prem and Yingluck to have a cup of tea together to work out if there is a way for Thaksin to get back, it is a completely different thing for extreme left wing politics to come into the mainstream of Thai politics.

Of course there are many shades of red, it would be interesting to see how scarlet any policies of a "red shirt" party would be.

Yes the communist bubble is still active. I was at a National Park up in Issan earlier this year that is dedicated to some communist people who were eventually killed in a battle back in the 70's sometime. I asked the Thai people I was with if they actually understand that if these communist uprisers had won their battle, the wouldn't have a King they are so proud of and support, they didn't seem to understand the link between the communists and their anti Royal and anti religious stance. I'm 99 per cent sure that thought I didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

There is a book from the communists with the title:

"Communist Thailand with the King as head of state and Buddhism as state religion."

super strange, or?

[h90]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

Me?

[animatic]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

In general, yes.

Red China, The Soviet Union and its satellites, Mao's Little Red Book, "A red under every bed" (McCarthyism.)

Sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists.

Manchester United, Arsenal & Liverpool are not.

They are opportunist, greedy communists. A real communist who believes to do good for the people by being communist can't support Thaksin who is the worst nightmare of a communist.

A commie must demand to nationalize Thaksins wealth and not giving him back the tax money.....A lot of his majesties projects of self sufficient communities are much closer to the communist thinking than all the things Thaksin did to make the poor more depending of the big companies.

They really must read their own books again....

Everyone is equal (big brother Thaksin can not earn more money or be treated different than the lowest labor)

Everyone gets the same chances (no family clans, free education)

Taking away the money from the rich (not giving them more taxpayer money)

Nationalizing companies, not privatizing as Thaksin did.

If sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists, why are they not arrested and put to jail or re-education camp?

Communists is a crime and punish by law right?

I even heard that shooting a communist is not a crime in the USA, and it is encouraged, that is why they (the American) went to Vietnam (&Korea, & Laos, & Cuba, etc).

They are running the re-education camps in Issan themselves.

They haven't been arrested because they are still useful tools or pawns in Thaksin's schemes.

It is presently not illegal to be a communist or for it,

but only to try and bring down the government to install communism.

[thaihome]

What it has done however is to ensure the Thai majority can never be condescended to, ignored. patronised and exploited ever again - by a greedy, unrepresentative and corrupt set of unelected elites

If you truly believe that, you have no idea what Thai politics is about. The areas where the UDD is most active, Khon Kaen, Udon, etc, contain some of the most “greedy, unrepresentative and corrupt set of unelected elites” in the entire country.

You being so convinced that the problem for the people of those areas is the “Amart or the Bangkok Elite” is only proof of how effective the propaganda campaign of the last 4 years has been.

You, and many others have been had. The day of reckoning is approaching, and though it will be gradual, the UDD will become just a memory as the local factions minimize its local presence.

TH

Edited May 11, 2012 by thaihome

[h90]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

Yes I admire what the PAD did to fight corruption and help democracy.....No secret....

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic.....They should have established them self as pure movement for democracy, against abuse of power, against corruption....

So I am not too happy with what they did at the end, but still I admire their previous things.

[jayboy]

My position isn't one of, "nothing has changed", but rather one of, "things have changed, but whether it will lead to long term gain in terms of democracy and in terms of the lives of those most in need, remains to be seen", and i have yet to read anyone who i take seriously saying anything much different from that.

A complete shift in your position.I don't think anyone would argue with your amended line.But it doesn't match up with your previous rigid defense of the status quo.

[jayboy]

Incidentally I also find it ironic that the PAD admirers have adopted the Pandora's box image in respect of Thaksin and the reds.I pointed this out and used the image years ago.Thaksin is not an admirable person and his significance is his catalytic effect.The box has been opened (by Thaksin) and Thai politics has changed forever., and not in a way that unelected elites, the corrupt generals, monopolist businesses and the frightened and myopic middle class are going to find very comfortable

Who are these "PAD admirers" that you speak of?

h90 doesn't hide his PAD affiliations and credit to him for his honesty.Other Padsters tend to be more guarded now the movement is so widely discredited but their hatred and fear of democracy,their fetish for the military and belief in fairy tales tends to make them easily discernible.

Yes I admire what the PAD did to fight corruption and help democracy.....No secret....

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic.....They should have established them self as pure movement for democracy, against abuse of power, against corruption....

So I am not too happy with what they did at the end, but still I admire their previous things.

An honest statement which I respect.Makes sense too although politically naive but I fear you underestimated the shadowy powerful interests who had their own agenda in fighting Thaksin.

[rixalex]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

[rixalex]

My position isn't one of, "nothing has changed", but rather one of, "things have changed, but whether it will lead to long term gain in terms of democracy and in terms of the lives of those most in need, remains to be seen", and i have yet to read anyone who i take seriously saying anything much different from that.

A complete shift in your position.I don't think anyone would argue with your amended line.But it doesn't match up with your previous rigid defense of the status quo.

My position has always been that things have changed but the status quo has ultimately remained in tact. Perhaps you can point to where i have suggested otherwise.

[h90]

An honest statement which I respect.Makes sense too although politically naive but I fear you underestimated the shadowy powerful interests who had their own agenda in fighting Thaksin.

Even if there are mysterious shadowy powers that have their own agenda in fighting Thaksin, I prefer this shadowy powers over Thaksin.

[OzMick]

An honest statement which I respect.Makes sense too although politically naive but I fear you underestimated the shadowy powerful interests who had their own agenda in fighting Thaksin.

Everybody but you is "politically naive"? Political pragmatism is making whatever alliances are necessary to achieve the primary objective. Differences can be sorted AFTER that is achieved. That is real world politics.

Who cares if "shadowy powerful interests" have their own agenda, as long as they are prepared to stick a knife in Ceasar's back?

[h90]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

Well....I do understand the arguments of PAD for the "no vote" nonsense. Their argument that the complete political system is corrupt, and in fact there isn't any major change no matter if you vote for PTP, Democrats (who showed that they aren't able to do much), Banharn or Newin.

While that might be true, it didn't help anything. Actually it just weakened the opposition.

Of course it is always easy to tell that the decisions of the past weren't good......Also I fail to see what they could have won if it worked well.

If say 30, 40, 50 % would have voted "no" it would have looked bad for the political system, but it wouldn't have changed anything at all.

So afterwards I don't think it was a good idea and as more time passes as more I think that it was stupid.

[rixalex]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

Well....I do understand the arguments of PAD for the "no vote" nonsense. Their argument that the complete political system is corrupt, and in fact there isn't any major change no matter if you vote for PTP, Democrats (who showed that they aren't able to do much), Banharn or Newin.

While that might be true, it didn't help anything. Actually it just weakened the opposition.

Of course it is always easy to tell that the decisions of the past weren't good......Also I fail to see what they could have won if it worked well.

If say 30, 40, 50 % would have voted "no" it would have looked bad for the political system, but it wouldn't have changed anything at all.

So afterwards I don't think it was a good idea and as more time passes as more I think that it was stupid.

Thanks for the explanation and i fully agree, with the one caveat that with regards the Dems not doing much, if we are talking about the last time they were in power, i don't think their coalition was strong enough to do much, and of course they had their hands full for most of the time with red protests. How much they would achieve were they lucky enough to be in Yingluck's position, we'll never know until they learn the art of decent campaigning and popular appeal. I'm not holding my breath.

[h90]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

Well....I do understand the arguments of PAD for the "no vote" nonsense. Their argument that the complete political system is corrupt, and in fact there isn't any major change no matter if you vote for PTP, Democrats (who showed that they aren't able to do much), Banharn or Newin.

While that might be true, it didn't help anything. Actually it just weakened the opposition.

Of course it is always easy to tell that the decisions of the past weren't good......Also I fail to see what they could have won if it worked well.

If say 30, 40, 50 % would have voted "no" it would have looked bad for the political system, but it wouldn't have changed anything at all.

So afterwards I don't think it was a good idea and as more time passes as more I think that it was stupid.

Thanks for the explanation and i fully agree, with the one caveat that with regards the Dems not doing much, if we are talking about the last time they were in power, i don't think their coalition was strong enough to do much, and of course they had their hands full for most of the time with red protests. How much they would achieve were they lucky enough to be in Yingluck's position, we'll never know until they learn the art of decent campaigning and popular appeal. I'm not holding my breath.

The Democrats should have done MUCH more even it would have let the coalition explode. AND the same important: Be honest and direct, not the empty blabla they did, outspeaking things instead of backroom deals. If the coalition would have broken apart people would think that the Democrats did something and tried to do more but were blocked.

So they look, depending on the person either like a watered down PTP, or like some people who are just not competent to get things moving.

The only reason to vote the Dems is that they aren't as bad as the PTP. But that isn't enough.....

[FOODLOVER]

Does the world in general associate Red with communism?

In general, yes.

Red China, The Soviet Union and its satellites, Mao's Little Red Book, "A red under every bed" (McCarthyism.)

Sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists.

Manchester United, Arsenal & Liverpool are not.

They are opportunist, greedy communists. A real communist who believes to do good for the people by being communist can't support Thaksin who is the worst nightmare of a communist.

A commie must demand to nationalize Thaksins wealth and not giving him back the tax money.....A lot of his majesties projects of self sufficient communities are much closer to the communist thinking than all the things Thaksin did to make the poor more depending of the big companies.

They really must read their own books again....

Everyone is equal (big brother Thaksin can not earn more money or be treated different than the lowest labor)

Everyone gets the same chances (no family clans, free education)

Taking away the money from the rich (not giving them more taxpayer money)

Nationalizing companies, not privatizing as Thaksin did.

If sister Thida and her husband Weng Tojirakarn are communists, why are they not arrested and put to jail or re-education camp?

Communists is a crime and punish by law right?

I even heard that shooting a communist is not a crime in the USA, and it is encouraged, that is why they (the American) went to Vietnam (&Korea, & Laos, & Cuba, etc).

Correct! We tie the communist to our hoods of our pickem up trucks. They are then smoked or cured. Commies last longer that way.

[otherstuff1957]

Both the Red Shirts and PAD are alliances of different groups, not monolithic blocks of people who believe the exact same things.

The Reds include old-fashioned Communists and Socialists, people who follow a Thaksin Personality Cult, a large number of people who would just like to change the status quo and a few mercenaries. Their motivations vary from a desire to reform the economy & aspects of society to a semi-religious belief that Thaksin will cure all of society's ills to an abhorrence of military intervention in politics to a desire to get 500 baht at the end of the day.

PAD included Royalists, right-wingers who distrust democracy and a large number of people who felt that Thaksin was out of control and needed to be ousted. The latter group is not really active now and so PAD is a shadow of its former self, but they might come back out of the woodwork if Thaksin returns.

The more ideological of the Reds are starting to feel betrayed by their leaders (as they should!). It will be interesting to see if they have enough numbers & willpower to either influence the government or form their own party.

[h90]

Both the Red Shirts and PAD are alliances of different groups, not monolithic blocks of people who believe the exact same things.

The Reds include old-fashioned Communists and Socialists, people who follow a Thaksin Personality Cult, a large number of people who would just like to change the status quo and a few mercenaries. Their motivations vary from a desire to reform the economy & aspects of society to a semi-religious belief that Thaksin will cure all of society's ills to an abhorrence of military intervention in politics to a desire to get 500 baht at the end of the day.

PAD included Royalists, right-wingers who distrust democracy and a large number of people who felt that Thaksin was out of control and needed to be ousted. The latter group is not really active now and so PAD is a shadow of its former self, but they might come back out of the woodwork if Thaksin returns.

The more ideological of the Reds are starting to feel betrayed by their leaders (as they should!). It will be interesting to see if they have enough numbers & willpower to either influence the government or form their own party.

PAD also include a fair share of left wings.

That alone make it impossible to make a party out of it.

You have ultra right and ultra left

you have have royalists who want an absolute monarchy and pure democracy lovers

you have religious nuts who would love to make Thailand a iran style god state and you have libertarians.

The only think that could hold them together was to get rid of Thaksin.

[rixalex]

The Democrats should have done MUCH more even it would have let the coalition explode. AND the same important: Be honest and direct, not the empty blabla they did, outspeaking things instead of backroom deals. If the coalition would have broken apart people would think that the Democrats did something and tried to do more but were blocked.

So they look, depending on the person either like a watered down PTP, or like some people who are just not competent to get things moving.

I think you are being naive if you think any political party would take a stand on principle if by doing so would inevitably lead to them losing power. Being in power but with hands somewhat tied is always going to have more appeal to any party, than being out of power. It is what politics is all about.

The only reason to vote the Dems is that they aren't as bad as the PTP. But that isn't enough.....

If you are only faced with two alternatives, why wouldn't you vote for the lesser of two evils? What is choice number three that is so much more attractive? A protest vote that counts for nothing? What good is that?

[h90]

The Democrats should have done MUCH more even it would have let the coalition explode. AND the same important: Be honest and direct, not the empty blabla they did, outspeaking things instead of backroom deals. If the coalition would have broken apart people would think that the Democrats did something and tried to do more but were blocked.

So they look, depending on the person either like a watered down PTP, or like some people who are just not competent to get things moving.

I think you are being naive if you think any political party would take a stand on principle if by doing so would inevitably lead to them losing power. Being in power but with hands somewhat tied is always going to have more appeal to any party, than being out of power. It is what politics is all about.

The only reason to vote the Dems is that they aren't as bad as the PTP. But that isn't enough.....

If you are only faced with two alternatives, why wouldn't you vote for the lesser of two evils? What is choice number three that is so much more attractive? A protest vote that counts for nothing? What good is that?

Yes you are right on that! "I think you are being naive if you think any political party would take a stand on principle if by doing so would inevitably lead to them losing power. Being in power but with hands somewhat tied is always going to have more appeal to any party, than being out of power. It is what politics is all about."

And it should change. It is moral corruption. See Chamlong, he always stepped back if would have to do a bad compromise.

If you have a Toyota with complete broken engine and a BMW with complete broken gearbox, which one do you choose to travel? Broken gearbox is the lesser evil, still the car won't bring you anywhere.

The only answer to the two evils would be to change the system.

They tried it with the new politics party, which can't work if you put total different groups in one party.....And why should this party not be the same corrupt?

So they stopped that idea.

Than they got the idea "no vote" to show that the people are fed up. First of all it did not work well and second who cares if they are fed up as long as the money flows.

What they also discussed was to change the system to a pure proportional system. Which is a good idea as it makes vote buying much more difficult and expensive, but it isn't the solution that fixes everything.

[volk666]

...The more ideological of the Reds are starting to feel betrayed by their leaders (as they should!)...

They knew perfectly well they were going to get screwed when they got into that bed. That's what the bed was there for.

They got seduced by the opportunity to speak to thousands of people from the red stage, that moment has passed, now it's time to pull down their pants and let their masters have their way, too.

What right to they have to speak of betrayal when they abandoned their own ideology for a short moment in public spotlight? Serves them well.

Speaking of red leaders, the other day I read about one of them form the provinces complaining about govt doing this and not doing that and that red shirts are getting fed up. Turns out it was a business woman with a hundred tonnes of tapioca in stock she didn't know where to sell.

If those village reds choose to be led by businessmen they've been selling products of their labor all their lives and are still left poor and saddled with debt then nothing, absolutely nothing has changed, except now they have formed even stronger bond with their exploiters.

Right from the beginning of TRT's foray in villages the idea was to shackle them even tighter and convince them that their local rulers are the one and only source of hope. Now they've achieved almost arian ideological purity with all their red villagers and one and only Dear Leader at the top.

And some think this is democracy!

[kerryk]

...The more ideological of the Reds are starting to feel betrayed by their leaders (as they should!)...

They knew perfectly well they were going to get screwed when they got into that bed. That's what the bed was there for.

They got seduced by the opportunity to speak to thousands of people from the red stage, that moment has passed, now it's time to pull down their pants and let their masters have their way, too.

What right to they have to speak of betrayal when they abandoned their own ideology for a short moment in public spotlight? Serves them well.

Speaking of red leaders, the other day I read about one of them form the provinces complaining about govt doing this and not doing that and that red shirts are getting fed up. Turns out it was a business woman with a hundred tonnes of tapioca in stock she didn't know where to sell.

If those village reds choose to be led by businessmen they've been selling products of their labor all their lives and are still left poor and saddled with debt then nothing, absolutely nothing has changed, except now they have formed even stronger bond with their exploiters.

Right from the beginning of TRT's foray in villages the idea was to shackle them even tighter and convince them that their local rulers are the one and only source of hope. Now they've achieved almost arian ideological purity with all their red villagers and one and only Dear Leader at the top.

And some think this is democracy!

Thailand has never had a democracy. How would you advise them to proceed? Would you have to tell them who to vote for? Or is there a list somewhere?

[hellodolly]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

Well....I do understand the arguments of PAD for the "no vote" nonsense. Their argument that the complete political system is corrupt, and in fact there isn't any major change no matter if you vote for PTP, Democrats (who showed that they aren't able to do much), Banharn or Newin.

While that might be true, it didn't help anything. Actually it just weakened the opposition.

Of course it is always easy to tell that the decisions of the past weren't good......Also I fail to see what they could have won if it worked well.

If say 30, 40, 50 % would have voted "no" it would have looked bad for the political system, but it wouldn't have changed anything at all.

So afterwards I don't think it was a good idea and as more time passes as more I think that it was stupid.

So munch said about the democrats doing nothing. Did any one of you geniuses ever stop to think of what they could have accomplished if given the same support as the PT enjoys. If they didn't have to cater to 40 Thaksin trained politicians who cared for nothing except for what they could get out of it.

If they had not had to put down a armed group of terrorists.

Easy to make a promise but why can you not carry it out when you have the power remember just one party has enough votes to do what ever they want.

Give the Democrats that munch power and you will see a different Thailand.

Only idiots and red shirts say why didn't they do that when they were in power.

[Thai at Heart]

Communism bubbles under in parts of Isaan still today, and were the political stance of the reds to be obviously that way, there is no way that the army would countenance them having any significant political role. It is one thing for Prem and Yingluck to have a cup of tea together to work out if there is a way for Thaksin to get back, it is a completely different thing for extreme left wing politics to come into the mainstream of Thai politics.

Of course there are many shades of red, it would be interesting to see how scarlet any policies of a "red shirt" party would be.

Yes the communist bubble is still active. I was at a National Park up in Issan earlier this year that is dedicated to some communist people who were eventually killed in a battle back in the 70's sometime. I asked the Thai people I was with if they actually understand that if these communist uprisers had won their battle, the wouldn't have a King they are so proud of and support, they didn't seem to understand the link between the communists and their anti Royal and anti religious stance. I'm 99 per cent sure that thought I didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

I worked with a guy a couple of years ago who was told me one night how he was moved out of the country for being a communist and employed by a multinational in the middle east for many years at the request of the government at that time. He was a student activist in the mid 70's, was kicked out and was allowed to return at the end of the 90's. He didn't like to talk about it much, but as he told it, he was a university student in Isaan in his youth, and got caught up in it all and said that he had learned his lesson and made a mistake in his youth.

Knowing him quite well, it was obvious that this was what he felt he "should" say, but nonetheless, the communist idea still bubbles under in Isaan. When he came back, he said he found it very difficult to get jobs, but nonetheless he was very happy to be able to come back home.

On the other side of the stick, I was looking to buy a house up country from a retired army guy, who during conversation proudly described how he had killed "hundreds" of communists in his time.

[h90]

Their ideas "New Politics Party" and "vote no" were complete idiotic....

Must be mistaken because i thought you backed the "no vote" nonsense. Or was it just you backed not voting for the two main parties?

Well....I do understand the arguments of PAD for the "no vote" nonsense. Their argument that the complete political system is corrupt, and in fact there isn't any major change no matter if you vote for PTP, Democrats (who showed that they aren't able to do much), Banharn or Newin.

While that might be true, it didn't help anything. Actually it just weakened the opposition.

Of course it is always easy to tell that the decisions of the past weren't good......Also I fail to see what they could have won if it worked well.

If say 30, 40, 50 % would have voted "no" it would have looked bad for the political system, but it wouldn't have changed anything at all.

So afterwards I don't think it was a good idea and as more time passes as more I think that it was stupid.

So munch said about the democrats doing nothing. Did any one of you geniuses ever stop to think of what they could have accomplished if given the same support as the PT enjoys. If they didn't have to cater to 40 Thaksin trained politicians who cared for nothing except for what they could get out of it.

If they had not had to put down a armed group of terrorists.

Easy to make a promise but why can you not carry it out when you have the power remember just one party has enough votes to do what ever they want.

Give the Democrats that munch power and you will see a different Thailand.

Only idiots and red shirts say why didn't they do that when they were in power.

Well if I would have seen 10 super ideas from the Democrats which they try to push thru the parliament and fail while doing so, than I would fully agree. But I haven't seen anything like that.

The only powerful decision I have seen was handing over Victor Bout to the USA and by doing do braking Thai law, braking international laws and make Russia who was a friend very upset.

On other things I couldn't see anything like that.

On the Cambodian thing.....I can't recall any clear word from Abhisit or anyone else.

1) Yes this is theirs.....an here ours begin or

2) No everything is ours or

3) Yes it just belong to them

Instead he only talked bs, trying to sit it out and make no one too upset. This isn't what leaders are supposed to do.

He tried to make nothing wrong by doing nothing and it won't be different if he has 80 % of the seats.

Why did he hold Suthep, who is well known for being corrupt.

Why did he hold Kasit who has shown complete incompetence (I have read some letters from him to Germany which were below the level of a 8 year old)

No one would have stopped him to remove his own people.