Soccer More Exciting Than Yank Football?

[sierra01]

jackr

a bit sensitive are we? did my post come a little too close to home?

Come on now, Everyone knows Brits have a chip on their shoulders about America and never miss a chance to engage in a bit of America bashing. Kind of funny really, but again, soccer may be your national sport, but you guys ain't very good at it. keep dreaming of the glory years of your sporting successes, like Brits keep dreaming of the time your nation was a world power. Times change, England, Scotland or Wales are not powers in International soccer, and haven't been for a long long time, just like the UK is not an economic or political power in the word either, and hasn't been for a long long time.

If u enjoy soccer, go for it, I think it is a great game to play, but pretty boring to watch. 1-0 or 0-0 games are not my cup of coffee (Tea is that sissy stuff we throw in Boston Harbor).

Just that remark on it's own shows your ignorance of the game mate.

[steveromagnino]

Ladprao

Might interest you to know that there are plenty of non-Brits and non-septics posting on this board as well... there are more than just 2 cuntries in the world you know :-)

That said, your post explaining the two games I think explains it very well; AF is a series of moments, each planned by the coaches, played out, then things start over again. Most impressive and demanding perfection in execution for the most part. All the cheerleaders, music entertainment, replays and so on fill in the gaps so that it is a media product people want to watch.

Football, icehockey, basketball and rugby (as a result of rule changes) are flowing on and on, so while they have the cheerleaders and so on, there is less need because the action is more constant.

Regarding the flow of play, rugby due to the massive advantages now incurred through posession mean that whoever can maintain and control possession has a big advantage, far bigger than football UK style I would guess. As with AF, the going backwards effort is much more than going forwards, but because it is flowing, it is, as you point out, more aerobic in fitness.

FYI among Pacific Islanders, rugby is probably most popular, but AF is also popular, and I knew a few (2) guys who went to USA growing up playing rugby but ending up getting into USA colleges playing AF.... not sure what happened to them. They were too big to run around 80 minutes for rugby, but that size was of big advantage in AF; Samoans just look at weights or food and they get bigger.

There is another version of rugby called rugby league, which is similar to AF in that it is play by play. It isn't played without breaks however, and there is only 1 team. 4 downs and then kick. It is extremely physical; the tackling is much harder than rugby (or used to be; now the way Australia and NZ play tackling does use league style tackling at certain phases) because the aim is to stop the guy dead, then drive him backwards. This sport went professional earlier than rugby, but is currently dying because in both Australia and NZ rugby and Aussie Rules seem more popular these days. Lots of good league players going to rugby.

Re. Jonah Lomu. He is not one the biggest guys on the field for reasons of size; he actually used to play as a wing which would be the equivalent of a wide receiver; it is just coincidence that he was also massive. His speed and ability to move around was quite amazing for someone that big, and I have never seen an AF player that agile. While the AF tackles in the line of scrimmage are clearly a lot tougher than anything in rugby, the running tackles on the backs are much softer than rugby or league; I am surprised that a good league tackler has not taught AF defensive backs how to tackle guys with no mercy and no mistakes. Rugby used to be the same, and a wave of league players coming into rugby (particularly Australia) has made defenses a lot tighter. The coverage of the backs seems remarkably poor compared to league style defense, but I am not an expert of the game, and have only once ever got to discuss with an AF high school level coach as to why this was (and never got a satisfactory answer).

Re. injury statistics; USA deaths vs. State of Victoria deaths. Consider how many people play each sport; Australia is a tiny country and USA is massive.

Which is more exciting? I know NFL keeps trying to push the sport out to the rest of the world with other leagues such as the European league, but I understand that the exhibition game at Wembley had walk outs, as the English just suddenly realised that 1 hour on TV with highlights was great but 4 hours live was a long time.

I'd say it was because Americans seem to be willing to have sports like this which move at a slow pace with tactics in the background (baseball the same) but then again cricket is much the same. So it comes down to what you grow up with and what you are familiar with.

Certainly when I lived in USA, I enjoyed watching AF, and can appreciate the perfection required to play the game; I think the biggest problem is that like American Wrestling the professional game is a mile away from everyday life. The physiques. The huge amount of equipment (you can play club rugby with a ball and a field, AF requires the pads or else you aren't playing the same as on TV). Whereas rugby (touch or club), soccer and boxing; I can go down to the gym/field have a go and think that tomorrow I gonna get a call up from Graham Henry/Ferguson/Don King - 'get your boots lad, with such an endless stream of pointless observations and drivel we think you'd be perfect for a run on Eden park/Old Trafford/MCM'

Out of interest, after college level, are there scores of leagues of AF for amatuers and older guys like with presidents level rugby/club rugby and all the numerous soccer leagues? Or is it solely professional?

[Rhys]

Well, good to hear that MNFB will be on ESPN.. L2-47 Dive pass, first go. break.

Trust the terrible towels make it all the way...

[TokyoT]

It has been kind of interesting reading thru this tread. You have those who prefer AF saying they don’t like football because of the lack of action, at the same time those who prefer football are using basically the same reason for why they don’t like AF – lack of action/ the games doesn’t flow/ too many breaks.

For the AF fan it seems that action = points, while for the football fan action = movement of any kind on the pitch. I have a growing (still minimal) interest in football, I love AF, and would watch more rugby if it were available here (Thailand) on television.

I love AF, and pretty much hated watching football until I had been in Asia for several years. I have come to appreciate football more over time but still find in lacking the action (action for me equates not necessarily scoring but at least real potential for scoring – ie corner kicks, balls controlled inside the box). Obviously everyone has their own interpretation of what constitutes action. For me too many football games are defensive matches – not enough aggressive play, not enough pushing the ball. Teams basically playing to not get scored upon rather than playing to score – this becomes especially evident if a team gets up say 2-nil.

Rugby for me has kind of the best of both worlds, some of similar physical tackling/confrontation from AF, and the always-ticking clock/ non-stoppage of play as football. But like I say there is a definite lack of coverage her in Thailand.

Steveromagnino:

I wanted to address a couple of your points/questions directly:

Besides college ball there are not that many options if one wants to play full-on tackle AF. There are some scattered leagues, and if you are lucky you can find a semi-regular pick-up game in some towns. I think this is mostly due to the very physically demanding nature of the game (in combination with the general lazy nature of many of us Americans). I used to play in pick-up games in college on a semi-regular bases, the games pretty much had to be played on Saturday as everyone needed a full day to recuperate to be reasonably fit to work on Monday. And almost every weekend someone got hurt bad enough to go to the hospital (stitches, dislocations, an occasional broken bone).

There are however more options available if you are willing to play touch or flag football - Basically playing with no tackling. Still not wildly popular in the US by any stretch of the imagination.

In addition to the physical nature of the sport (in the pro’s most of these guys don’t play after 30), you also have to consider the American football culture. It is the #1 spectator sport in the US, and many people watch games in person or on the telly all weekend long. Friday night is high school football night – so you go out and watch/support you local high school football team (for some areas – particularly in Texas/Ohio/Pennsylvania) nothing is more important than the local high school football game. Saturday is college football day, and then Sunday is professional football day.

So a person with a regular Mon-Fri job has little time to play. The games take at least 3 hours – so playing thru the week is pretty much out (no time after work, unless you can find a field that will turn on lights to play into the night). Then the weekend is spent watching the games of those in truly organized programs.

You also made a comment about the remarkably poor coverage of backs compared to league style defense. I am not 100% sure of the specific question, but most of the rules in AF have been slanted to favor the offensive team. For example the defensive player can not make any contact with the wide receiver after the wider receiver has gone 5 yards past the line of scrimmage (the point where the ball was at the beginning of the play). So as the wide receiver goes down field he is at a definite advantage and this makes him harder to cover.

Also with few exceptions (even at the primary school levels) most players play either offense or defense. The guys on offense get to score points and get all the headlines, so generally people prefer to play on offense. This means a guy that has a lot of talent and could be either a great defensive back or a good wide receiver, will choose to play wide receiver. Leaving a smaller pool of good talent for defensive backs.

I would be more than happy to discuss this point further over a pint in Bangkok anytime - PM me if you like.

[sadman]

FYI among Pacific Islanders, rugby is probably most popular, but AF is also popular, and I knew a few (2) guys who went to USA growing up playing rugby but ending up getting into USA colleges playing AF.... not sure what happened to them. They were too big to run around 80 minutes for rugby, but that size was of big advantage in AF; Samoans just look at weights or food and they get bigger.

Rugby is a way of life in the islands, but different islands have different styles: Fijians have traditionally liked the movement and passing, but stayed out of contact (though this is changing) which is why they produce such magnificent 7s players. Samoans hit harder than any other national group I have ever seen, very often illegally (again, this is changing, with the Iceman coaching their national side).

It is extremely physical; the tackling is much harder than rugby (or used to be; now the way Australia and NZ play tackling does use league style tackling at certain phases) because the aim is to stop the guy dead, then drive him backwards. This sport went professional earlier than rugby, but is currently dying because in both Australia and NZ rugby and Aussie Rules seem more popular these days. Lots of good league players going to rugby.

Rugby league has had a huge influence. Before union turned pro in 1996, union players would switch codes in order to play for a living. Since then, many of them have come back, together with other league players. The hits used to be harder, but the difference is negligible now, especially given that Phil Larder (England's defence coach), Joe Lydon (England A head coach) and others are all league legends, and the players are too many to name, in the UK and Aus.

Re. Jonah Lomu. He is not one the biggest guys on the field for reasons of size; he actually used to play as a wing which would be the equivalent of a wide receiver; it is just coincidence that he was also massive. His speed and ability to move around was quite amazing for someone that big

I don't really agree. Lomu at his peak was 19 stone and ran the 100m in some incredible time, which made him impossible to stop when at full pelt, given that his opposite numbers would generally be 14 stone at most. He was found out if made to bend, tackle someone his own size, or turn. His real advantage was that by sucking in 2 or more defenders, he created space for his team mates to exploit, and it was in this way that he was utilised to best effect. He is very much a one-off.

[mogoso]

Football is 90 minutes of excitement (unless you like Sunderland )

American football = night of boredom

Must be the worlds favorite sport.

The leading article beginning this futbol vs football finishes with a statement saying over the last ten years baseball tops soccer in the excitment factor. You gonna believe those american scientists.

[justsignedin]

Football is 90 minutes of excitement (unless you like Sunderland )

American football = night of boredom

Must be the worlds favorite sport.

The leading article beginning this futbol vs football finishes with a statement saying over the last ten years baseball tops soccer in the excitment factor. You gonna believe those american scientists.

What's this gotta do with futbol and foot ball.

[mogoso]

Football is 90 minutes of excitement (unless you like Sunderland )

American football = night of boredom

Must be the worlds favorite sport.

The leading article beginning this futbol vs football finishes with a statement saying over the last ten years baseball tops soccer in the excitment factor. You gonna believe those american scientists.

What's this gotta do with futbol and foot ball.

About as much as your comment, didn't you read the whole article?

[quiggs]

A true sportsman would appreciate both soccer and american football.

This is the first intelligent post of this thread

[steveromagnino]

A true sportsman would appreciate both soccer and american football.

And a true armchair sportsman would complain about both.

And ask for anuffa.

[tutsiwarrior]

as an american I am not a big fan of american football (I only watch the occasional baseball game for sentimental reasons). However I cannot help but watch with fascination how such huge specimens can move about the field with tremendous speed and almost balletic gracefulness.

It is also amazing that many players manage to stay on the field throughout the game with injuries...in contrast to the histrionics displayed by soccer players when accidentally kicked in the shins...

Edited January 25, 2006 by tutsiwarrior

[chuchok]

Re. Jonah Lomu. He is not one the biggest guys on the field for reasons of size; he actually used to play as a wing which would be the equivalent of a wide receiver; it is just coincidence that he was also massive. His speed and ability to move around was quite amazing for someone that big

I don't really agree. Lomu at his peak was 19 stone and ran the 100m in some incredible time, which made him impossible to stop when at full pelt, given that his opposite numbers would generally be 14 stone at most. He was found out if made to bend, tackle someone his own size, or turn. His real advantage was that by sucking in 2 or more defenders, he created space for his team mates to exploit, and it was in this way that he was utilised to best effect. He is very much a one-off.

well sadman, this is where we disagree a little bit.Lomu at his peak had the quickest 40m dash than anybody in NZ at the time.The length of his stride,balance and size helped him no end, but there is no substitute for pace. He was first really noticed, when Eric Rush made a clean break 20m out fromthe line in a local sevens game with the line open.He got mowed down 10m from the line.Jonah was only 16.

[CTM]

Edited January 25, 2006 by CTM

[stats]

Oh yeah Soccer is fun and exiting

Check this out

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=57075

[Boon Mee]

...in contrast to the histrionics displayed by soccer players when accidentally kicked in the shins...

Good choice of words, tutsi...

[steveromagnino]

...in contrast to the histrionics displayed by soccer players when accidentally kicked in the shins...

Good choice of words, tutsi...

The thing is that you get rewarded with penalties for contact, so they milk it.

And what about the score a goal celebration where the guy takes off running and all his team mates run after him in some sort of 'catch the scorer and give him a dry root and a hug' - what is that all about>?

In AF you get some sort of crowd love situation if you show off after scoring points?! Can someone explain the bizarre rituals after a guy finishes a play or sacks someone?

These guys are supposedly grown men, yet their strutting and posturing upon making ONE play is so OTT that they look like a 5 year old kid... what is that all about?!

At least in rugby you are doing the clothed orgy mauls and sticking the boot up the guy's pants and so on as part of the game, I just cannot understand all the over the top antics of AF and soccer....

Although the snorting the sideline incident was well good to watch :-)

[sadman]

I don't really agree. Lomu at his peak was 19 stone and ran the 100m in some incredible time, which made him impossible to stop when at full pelt, given that his opposite numbers would generally be 14 stone at most. He was found out if made to bend, tackle someone his own size, or turn. His real advantage was that by sucking in 2 or more defenders, he created space for his team mates to exploit, and it was in this way that he was utilised to best effect. He is very much a one-off.

well sadman, this is where we disagree a little bit.Lomu at his peak had the quickest 40m dash than anybody in NZ at the time.The length of his stride,balance and size helped him no end, but there is no substitute for pace. He was first really noticed, when Eric Rush made a clean break 20m out fromthe line in a local sevens game with the line open.He got mowed down 10m from the line.Jonah was only 16.

I don't disagree at all! He has an abundance of gas and is unbelievably powerful. He was also an asset to 7s, IMHO, for those reasons. However, when matched against similar-sized players, or faced with guile, he was found out. Compare him with Rush, Owen Scrimgeour, Cain Asala (sp?) from NZ 7s, or Peter Miller, Serevi etc etc etc, and he didn't compare. But at 15's, his talent was in creating space as well as demolishing smaller wings. I'm not detracting from him - IMHO he is one of the all-time greats.

If hit properly, he is as vulnerable as anyone. I saw Richard Hill (2 or 3 stone lighter) hit him when Lomu was at full pelt. Hill took him from directly in front, technically perfect, and drove Lomu backwards and off his feet. But it takes a big man to do it. I'm only glad that JL's kidney problem was sorted and that he's back playing.

Edited January 26, 2006 by sadman