Remove The Democrats, Reds Told

[h90]

It's all relative Jurgen.

In this case it was preceded by something much worse.

The Allied Forces overcame Hitler and installed a government to return Germany to normal.

Same kind of thing really

And if the German military would have had balls (they didn't like Thaksin Hitler and specially they didn't like the Red Brown Shirts thugs) and made a coup it could have saved millions of lifes.

[rixalex]

Despotic ? And how you call a junta that forces a new constitution upon the voters as a pre condition for a return to democracy ?

There was a referendum for that new constitution and people voting in favour was not a pre condition for a return to democracy.

[h90]

Despotic ? And how you call a junta that forces a new constitution upon the voters as a pre condition for a return to democracy ?

There was a referendum for that new constitution and people voting in favour was not a pre condition for a return to democracy.

And there was no referendum for the previous constitution and PTP plans no referendum for their changes. So the junta was doing it more democratic than everyone else.

[JohnAllan]

Ah! So it is the Democrats who out to destroy democracy and the constitution. I am glad Weng cleared that up. I feel duty bound to apologise to the redshirt leaders, and the government, for having ever doubted the purity of their motives.

[JohnAllan]

It's all relative Jurgen.

In this case it was preceded by something much worse.

The Allied Forces overcame Hitler and installed a government to return Germany to normal.

Same kind of thing really

And if the German military would have had balls (they didn't like Thaksin Hitler and specially they didn't like the Red Brown Shirts thugs) and made a coup it could have saved millions of lifes.

Members of the German military tried that. It failed.

[gemini81]

A mixture of violence, terror and political indoctrination is being foisted upon a group of people who have no idea of what the consequences of their actions might be.

That's exactly what a number of us was saying early 2006.

But today is 2012, and unless you own a Time-Machine you aren't going to see 2006 again anytime soon.

Why not look at events today instead, the PTP government in power today, their bills to overturn supreme-court rulings, their refusal to engage in debate on all their policymaking, their refusal to discuss matters without scripting, telling opposition MPs to go hang themselves, and the PTP handing out home-addresses of dissidents to angry mobs. These are the events of 2012, and this is the despotic government we are all living under today.

Despotic ? And how you call a junta that forces a new constitution upon the voters as a pre condition for a return to democracy ?

Sorry, again not off topic, just a bit of background for the present events.

Prefer corrupt dictators? Why not make china or N. Korea your stomping grounds then?

[JohnAllan]

Bunch of children.

.

... I suggest a fight after school ... behind a neutral exclusive golf clubhouse ... Thaksin v. Apisit ... no holds barred ... hand to hand ... razor blades, chains, knives, whatever ... a fight to the death ... winner take all ... televised, so all may relish in the real life blood for which Thais seem to hunger.

... the protracted pain these people are causing this nation is killing Thailand ... better to suffer the deeper, though shorter in duration, excruciating pain of an all out final battle to the finish.

... it is all too perverse ... a pathologically sick nation ... be done with it!

Wouldn't it actually be more enjoyable to see a one on one discussion between Abhisit Vejjajiva and Thaksin Shinawatra in a studio or hotel environment.

OR

a "Hard Talk" kind of discussion with both of them present with a strong moderator who is unafraid to ask difficult questions.

I for one would pay money to see that because frankly I think Abhisit would take on Thaksin, chew him to pieces and spit him out.

IMHO of course.

There isn't a Thai moderator alive who would tell it how it is, never mind take Thai politicians to task. Thai talk show hosts treat every guest like they were porcelain china, afraid to raise any issue seen as even slightly contentious.

A Thai Robin Day - were one ever to materialise - would chew on both Thaksin and Abhisit before spitting them out.

[bigbamboo]

Pheu Thai MP and red-shirt leader Weng Tojirakarn yesterday called on fellow red shirts to eradicate the Democrat Party.

When a group with a lengthy history of violence calls for the eradication of its opponents, this sort of provocative rhetoric from one of their leaders is rather chilling... and reminiscent of their early threats of violence and arson.

eradicate or exterminate?

.

Fascists used to use similar rhetoric at their rallies too.

Edited June 17, 2012 by bigbamboo

[phiphidon]

Despotic ? And how you call a junta that forces a new constitution upon the voters as a pre condition for a return to democracy ?

There was a referendum for that new constitution and people voting in favour was not a pre condition for a return to democracy.

And there was no referendum for the previous constitution and PTP plans no referendum for their changes. So the junta was doing it more democratic than everyone else.

More democratic my A. I suggest you do a bit of reading outside of the TV forum. Even Wiki will give you a taster of the restrictions imposed on the juntas referendum, further reading recommended though. Even Abhisit said when approving the 2007 constitution that the choice was take it or the junta will choose a constitution of their choosing. While you're thinking about that read this

In drafting the new constitution, the assembly is required to hear opinions from people in all regions.

However, the amendment prohibits changing the political system from a constitutional monarchy. It also prohibits changing the form of the state from a single state, and prohibits changing any clause in the chapter on the monarchy in the current Constitution.

The Election Commission will be required to hold a national referendum on the CDA's new charter within 60 days after it receives the draft passed on by the Parliament President.

However, the EC must leave at least 45 days before holding the referendum as time to promote the ballot and publicising the charter draft. This must be done within 60 days but not before 45 days after the EC receives the draft.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Second-reading-of-constitution-bill-finalised-30181992.html

For the benefit of those passing on misinformation about the constitution amendment bill.

[Misterwhisper]

Yes, all that (ex-communist) Weng and his UDD cohorts truly want is reconciliation, of course, and it can be best achieved by 'eradicating' the opposition, just stopping short of throwing the whole lot into hard labour camps for 'defying' the parliament speaker.

Something's sooo fundamentally wrong with this redshirt mindset, I feel like I am going to throw up.

What a circus!

[rixalex]

Even Wiki will give you a taster of the restrictions imposed on the juntas referendum, further reading recommended though.

The circumstances and nature of the referendum weren't perfect, but people were still free to vote in whatever way they wished once in the ballot box. To deny the outcome of the vote and declare it invalid on the basis of certain restrictions is little different from denying the outcome of the general election and declaring it invalid on the basis that PTP broke electoral law... and i don't see you doing that.

Even Abhisit said when approving the 2007 constitution that the choice was take it or the junta will choose a constitution of their choosing.

What he said was that an old constitution was be revised, but he didn't say that it would be forced on the people or that there would no be a referendum.

[Skywalker69]

Yes, all that (ex-communist) Weng and his UDD cohorts truly want is reconciliation, of course, and it can be best achieved by 'eradicating' the opposition, just stopping short of throwing the whole lot into hard labour camps for 'defying' the parliament speaker.

Something's sooo fundamentally wrong with this redshirt mindset, I feel like I am going to throw up.

What a circus!

So right you are. It´s sickening.

[h90]

It's all relative Jurgen.

In this case it was preceded by something much worse.

The Allied Forces overcame Hitler and installed a government to return Germany to normal.

Same kind of thing really

And if the German military would have had balls (they didn't like Thaksin Hitler and specially they didn't like the Red Brown Shirts thugs) and made a coup it could have saved millions of lifes.

Members of the German military tried that. It failed.

yes but nothing full scale.

[h90]

Prefer corrupt dictators? Why not make china or N. Korea your stomping grounds then?

There are a lot foreigners living in China and as it seems they like it there.

[h90]

More democratic my A. I suggest you do a bit of reading outside of the TV forum. Even Wiki will give you a taster of the restrictions imposed on the juntas referendum, further reading recommended though. Even Abhisit said when approving the 2007 constitution that the choice was take it or the junta will choose a constitution of their choosing. While you're thinking about that read this

What restrictions?? I basically only know Thais that votes "yes" and it doesn't seem that anyone forced them.

As well the constitution isn't spectacular different. Just more checks&balance and bit harsher for fraud at and vote buying and corruption. And that doesn't work as we see.

So what is wrong with the constitution in compare with the previous? That the Premier has less power? Or that vote buying is slightly more difficult?

[JurgenG]

It's amazing how people have a short memory.

The junta was quite aware that a democratic election will return Thaksin in power, so they wrote a new constitution that will limit the power of the new government and make sure that the army will firmly stay in charge of the country. That was made very clear, candidly presented as a way to avoid the return of Thaksin. And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately at that time there was no organized citizen movement to stop a minority of thugs to derail democracy in Thailand. That's why we now have the "reds", to send a clear message to the PAD that this time it won't be as easy as in 2006 and 2008. All the current red's sabre rattling is a reminder for the PAD to stay within the limit of the law or there will be consequences.

Edited June 17, 2012 by JurgenG

[thaicbr]

It's amazing how people have a short memory.

The junta was quite aware that a democratic election will return Thaksin in power, so they wrote a new constitution that will limit the power of the new government and make sure that the army will firmly stay in charge of the country. That was made very clear, candidly presented as a way to avoid the return of Thaksin. And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Unfortunately at that time there was no organized citizen movement to stop a minority of thugs to derail democracy in Thailand. That's why we have the "reds", to send a clear message to the PAD that this time it won't be as easy as in 2006 and 2008. All the current red's sabre rattling is a reminder for the PAD to stay within the limit of the law or there will be consequences.

And when will the reds stay within the laws????

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

[rixalex]

And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Pure unadulterated BS.

[bangkokheat]

mysterious deaths, corruption, political unrest, floods and whatever I missed, one thing is for sure, the toilet is close by and if thailand dont sort their shit out thats where the country is going to end up. What a beautiful country with so many beautiful people yet so ugly and tarnished by agendas, greed, power mongers and just plain ignorance and stupidity. Political whores

[rixalex]

Unfortunately at that time there was no organized citizen movement to stop a minority of thugs to derail democracy in Thailand.

Citizen's don't need organising when they are genuinely outraged. They take to the streets and make their feelings known. Look around the world for examples of that happening right as we speak. These people didn't wait years to have someone tell them where to go, what to do, what to say. It happens instantaneously and impulsively, and that is what gives it real power and validity, not this artificial paid for hire nonsense masquerading as something genuine and noble that is the red movement.

[Yunla]

Unfortunately at that time there was no organized citizen movement to stop a minority of thugs to derail democracy in Thailand. That's why we now have the "reds", to send a clear message to the PAD that this time it won't be as easy as in 2006 and 2008. All the current red's sabre rattling is a reminder for the PAD to stay within the limit of the law or there will be consequences.

The redmob are not "rattling sabres". They are giving out home-addresses of law-abiding citizens with families and kids living at those addresses. They are telling their redmob footsoldiers to threaten those people at their own homes. That is state fascism, by the redmob state. Make citizens feel afraid in their own homes, make those peoples' children feel afraid in their own homes. PTP state fascism.

I found your comment that the redmobs actions are a;

reminder for the PAD to stay within the limit of the law or there will be consequences."

was particularly erroneous given that PTP are in the process of over-turning the highest law in the land, the supreme court which PTP treats with contempt and treasonous dishonour. PTP are violent convicted criminals, led by a crime syndicate family, the leader of which is a dangerous sociopath who stole 30% of the Thai State funds during his time in office. They are fascist totalitarian gangsters.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Yunla

[ThaiOats]

Democrats haven't won an election in 30 years. Maybe the Thai people's voice should be respected?????

I would point out a small factual error there, but it wouldn't fit the propaganda you are being fed, so probably little point in doing so.

No harm would have been done if you had pointed out the error.It would also have underlined that once the Democrats were a truly popular national party and not the current compromised and ineffective grouping they are now, dependent for success on the whims of military, courts and feudalists - not the judgement of the Thai people.However notwithstanding the error the poster's main point holds good - ie that for many years the Democrats have been unable to command the electoral support of the Thai people.That's not a matter of being fed propaganda, simply the unvarnished truth.

Do you understand Thai and have you listened to both sides talk in their perspective radio/video shows and rallies? Chuan Leekpai talked about various coups throughout the history of Thailand and they were done wrongly as he opposed them, reasoning that "babies (Democracy) have to learn how to walk on their own, if you (military) tie them down, they'll never learn how to walk". Democracy is an infant at best in Thailand and because Thailand didn't get their Democracy through bloodshed but was given a Constitutional Monarchy by you know who. For those who don't know, google "Democrat Party Thailand" and briefly look at who Chuan Leekpai and Banyat are.

If you were able to listen to both sides, you'll see one side speaking with reason and explaining the cases against Thaksin, the meaning of 'Democracy', the wrong steps/corruption politicians took within the Democratic party and so forth. The other side spews utter nonsense and Ad hominem attacks, especially against Newin Chidchop, Suthep and Abhisit. To be fair, the non-red (can't call them Democrats because not all were Democrats) did that as well against Thaksin, Natthawut, Jatuporn and Yingluck but that was not the basis of their argument.

Chuan and Abhisit in their speeches addressed the Red-Shirt followers, "for our brothers and sisters who do not know, or do not understand, one day you will as long as you're willing to accept the truth and fight for what is right under the rule of law". The Red Leaders claim that the red-shirts already 'know' everything and they were no longer going to bow down to the ammarts/elite and keep pushing forward.

What I found silly and quite expected really was when Natthawut continuously sees this whole debacle as some sort of a boxing match where the PTP have the upper hand. From his view, he's doing it for fun and he "enjoys the Democrats suffering". Is that what it means to be the governing party? To see the opposition suffer? Not once did Natthawut provide rebuttals for any arguments the Democrats made the day before. He was being more of a comedian and a ringer on that stage, claiming that the Democrats are out to overthrow the government to which the Democrats explicitly said in everyone of their rallies "we are not trying to overthrow the government and wish for it to take care of the people's problems"

I'll need to go watch Weng's speech but there's not a doubt in my mind that he called for a removal of the Democrats.

[ThaiOats]

Bunch of children.

.

... I suggest a fight after school ... behind a neutral exclusive golf clubhouse ... Thaksin v. Apisit ... no holds barred ... hand to hand ... razor blades, chains, knives, whatever ... a fight to the death ... winner take all ... televised, so all may relish in the real life blood for which Thais seem to hunger.

... the protracted pain these people are causing this nation is killing Thailand ... better to suffer the deeper, though shorter in duration, excruciating pain of an all out final battle to the finish.

... it is all too perverse ... a pathologically sick nation ... be done with it!

Wouldn't it actually be more enjoyable to see a one on one discussion between Abhisit Vejjajiva and Thaksin Shinawatra in a studio or hotel environment.

OR

a "Hard Talk" kind of discussion with both of them present with a strong moderator who is unafraid to ask difficult questions.

I for one would pay money to see that because frankly I think Abhisit would take on Thaksin, chew him to pieces and spit him out.

IMHO of course.

There isn't a Thai moderator alive who would tell it how it is, never mind take Thai politicians to task. Thai talk show hosts treat every guest like they were porcelain china, afraid to raise any issue seen as even slightly contentious.

A Thai Robin Day - were one ever to materialise - would chew on both Thaksin and Abhisit before spitting them out.

True, that's why you can rely only on the rebuttals from each side and draw conclusions on them. If one side is lying, it's the other side's duty to provide evidence and back and forth it goes.

[ThaiOats]

In drafting the new constitution, the assembly is required to hear opinions from people in all regions.

However, the amendment prohibits changing the political system from a constitutional monarchy. It also prohibits changing the form of the state from a single state, and prohibits changing any clause in the chapter on the monarchy in the current Constitution.

The Election Commission will be required to hold a national referendum on the CDA's new charter within 60 days after it receives the draft passed on by the Parliament President.

However, the EC must leave at least 45 days before holding the referendum as time to promote the ballot and publicising the charter draft. This must be done within 60 days but not before 45 days after the EC receives the draft.

http://www.nationmul...d-30181992.html

For the benefit of those passing on misinformation about the constitution amendment bill. - phiphidon

I'll agree that claiming the constitution amendment bill was to overthrow the monarchy was dirty and a bit far-fetched. They had to invoke the clause because the government was playing dirty by trying to whitewash all wrong doings. If the government really wanted to amend the constitution for the good of the people, all they had to do was take out the whitewashing part. Whitewashing crimes including murder and corruption (don't know what corruption has to do with reconciliation) is not a good model of good governance.

EDIT: Wish I knew how to work this quote system.

Edited June 17, 2012 by ThaiOats

[OzMick]

Despotic ? And how you call a junta that forces a new constitution upon the voters as a pre condition for a return to democracy ?

There was a referendum for that new constitution and people voting in favour was not a pre condition for a return to democracy.

And there was no referendum for the previous constitution and PTP plans no referendum for their changes. So the junta was doing it more democratic than everyone else.

More democratic my A. I suggest you do a bit of reading outside of the TV forum. Even Wiki will give you a taster of the restrictions imposed on the juntas referendum, further reading recommended though. Even Abhisit said when approving the 2007 constitution that the choice was take it or the junta will choose a constitution of their choosing. While you're thinking about that read this

Jurgen won't answer so I will ask you. Besides the amnesty clause, what was changed and what do you object to in the 2006 constitution?

You both rabididly run down the referendum, but if there is nothing objectionable in the changes, what is the problem?

[JurgenG]

And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Pure unadulterated BS.

Really ? Do you know that the Junta passed a law to threaten with harsh punishment people who campaign against the constitution ? Very democratic indeed.

And that among other niceties the constitution gave amnesty to the coup leaders.

The difference between now and then is that now there is no law to restrict the freedom of expression

[OzMick]

And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Pure unadulterated BS.

Really ? Do you know that the Junta passed a law to threaten with harsh punishment people who campaign against the constitution ? Very democratic indeed.

And that among other niceties the constitution gave amnesty to the coup leaders.

The difference between now and then is that now there is no law to restrict the freedom of expression

Yes we know about the amnesty, what were the other niceties that you object to, or are you just be objectional?

[lungmi]

Democrats haven't won an election in 30 years. Maybe the Thai people's voice should be respected?????

Voice of partisans of a maoist roadmap? You think Thai people are stupid?

Yes, someone, maybe you.

[ThaiOats]

And people were clearly informed that if they don't accept the new constitution, there wouldn't be any democratic election in the foreseeable future.

Pure unadulterated BS.

Really ? Do you know that the Junta passed a law to threaten with harsh punishment people who campaign against the constitution ? Very democratic indeed.

And that among other niceties the constitution gave amnesty to the coup leaders.

The difference between now and then is that now there is no law to restrict the freedom of expression

If I understand correctly, you're dividing Thailand into Red Shirts (people) vs Everyone else. Any other political party that do not support the Red shirts are therefore, part of the military junta correct?

[ThaiOats]

At the Red Shirt rally in Minuri, Natthawut said "the Democrats are stupid, nowhere in the Reconciliation bill does it say 'we are going to pardon THAKSIN, or we are going to give 46 billion baht to Thaksin'". Well no sh*t Sherlock, only dummies would believe that since you can't write clauses for an individual. He didn't explain that the clauses they put in will do exactly that in a sneaky way.