Canadian Sisters Died Of 'Food Poisoning' In Thailand Hotel

[annabel]

not sure, if someone orders (recreational) drugs, when returning home before midnight - with the sister...

also, it is somehow given as fact, that they didnt try to get help... do we know for sure, that they didnt call reception?

did they really die inside the room?

maybe, maybe not..

Have to agree with you based on the reviews i have read on Trip Advisor ... no one at the reception desk at night other than a guy sleeping on a couch ....

[Jayman]

Seems to be more info on this story including that the family members are in route to Thailand and that the same team that worked on the Chang Mai investigation are now working on this case.

Edited June 18, 2012 by george
Link

[dingdang]

Pretty sure that aircon units recirculate the air in the room and not pull air from outside. I could be wrong on that.

what do they then need that monstrous outside-units with a fan for?

ok, they are cooling, too...

Edited June 18, 2012 by dingdang

[annabel]

All the speculation that is being made here on poisons, cause of death, motives are just that, pure speculation and give no real help or solace to anybody, least of all the grieving parents.

Not true. The speculation on this forum serves a useful purpose. The parents probably don't have a clue about the lying, face-saving, cover-up methods the Thais will employ to make these deaths appear 'natural' and 'excusable'. Family or friends of the family can read these posts and learn of the Thai penchant for cover-up, plus learn about the other 'mysterious' deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai and thereby develop a healthy scepticism for whatever BS the Thais throw at them.

It is only useful when we can discuss and speculate, and every time you turn back up on thread nobody can do that! Here we go again for an other evening of you posting however many links you can to bleeding gums and warfarin and ignoring all the links that may argue against your obsessive theory.

Dear God and Mediators ... where are you ?? Can anyone get this "guyinthailand" guy OFF the TV posts ...? Really he is the most annoying poster I have ever seen .... Pluueeeaaase ! Get him off of here !!! Meant moderators !!! not mediators ... Sorry !

Edited June 18, 2012 by annabel

[sportsman69]

All the speculation that is being made here on poisons, cause of death, motives are just that, pure speculation and give no real help or solace to anybody, least of all the grieving parents.

Not true. The speculation on this forum serves a useful purpose. The parents probably don't have a clue about the lying, face-saving, cover-up methods the Thais will employ to make these deaths appear 'natural' and 'excusable'. Family or friends of the family can read these posts and learn of the Thai penchant for cover-up, plus learn about the other 'mysterious' deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai and thereby develop a healthy scepticism for whatever BS the Thais throw at them.

I wont get into an argument but if yours is that speculation, and I was referring to types of poisons etc, that caused the deaths and the gory details that have been posted is this might benefit the grieving parents. If after reading soon to be more than 400 posts they cannot read between the lines that, maybe unknown to them before, it certainly is now quite apparent, that Thailand is indeed, without dispute the world Hub of Official cover ups.

Please consider the next of kin, Thanks.

Edited June 18, 2012 by sportsman69

[Jayman]

Pretty sure that aircon units recirculate the air in the room and not pull air from outside. I could be wrong on that.

what would the then need that monstrous outside-units with a fan for?

Well, I am am not a qualified HVAC guy.. but my understanding is that the compressor (which is outside) is used to compress the refrigerant and it is piped into the radiator fans inside as it's uncompressed causing the refrigerant to cool. The fans inside blow recirculated air across the cooled radiator blades and the heat from the air is transferred to the refrigerant that is carried back outside. The fans outside are to remove the heat that is being removed from the room via the refrigerant. Then the compressor re compresses the gas (this also creates heat) and the cycle continues. It's the decompression of the refrigerant that is what causes the gas to get cold.

[ttelise]

"According to The Phuket News online edition, a physician who performed a preliminary examination, Dr Komkrit Phukrityakame said he believed the two were victims of food poisoning.

"The source could have been a meal which included blowfish or poisonous mushrooms," Krabi Hospital director Kromkit said".

"Officials said they found vomit in the room and there was haemorrhaging of the sisters' lips and gums. Their fingernails and toenails had turned blue".

I cannot find in the medical literature where blowfish are said to cause coagulation disorders that would cause bleeding gums.

Poisonous mushrooms if they contain something called involutin, can cause blood in the urine and renal failure, which renal (kidney) failure can cause bleeding gums. ("Mushrooms that contain involutin may cause a life-threatening immune-mediated hemolysis with hemoglobinuria and renal failure"). Medscape: Medscape Access

So it is possible poisonous mushrooms are the culprit.

If that is the case, then the question must be asked: 'how is it that poisonous mushrooms were served to ONLY these two women out of the thousands of tourists on Phi Phi that day?'

If they were deliberately poisoned, then our killer has gotten smarter as he is not using a man-made poison, but one which can appear to have been ingested 'accidentally'.

Okay, we get that you believe Warfarin based on citing emedicine which is neither peer review or an acceptable and recognized medical treatise subject to peer review for purposes of diagnosis and treatment by the medical community. If a doctor said in a deposition or during trial that he treated the dead patient based on what he read on emedicine.com, he would need to get out th check book and stroke a check.

Warfarin, as are many other things, is a possibility. With Warafrin, however, a dose that large would make a mess as I have been trying to say in a politically correct manner for many pages. There would be little doubt.

There would be fairly PROFUSE hemorrhaging from mouth, nose, and vaginal areas. Capilaries in the eyes and eye lining would be a mess putting it nicely. The abdominal cavity would be distended due to profuse hemorrhaging inside the peritoneal cavity. A simple and small incission around or below naval and into the peritonel cavity would make this readily apparent. The retro peritoneal cavity would have an accumulation of blood. The brain would look like a subdural hematoma on steroids to put it nicely.

Lastly, the regurgitation in the room would either be bloody or an emesis with a coffee ground appearance if there was regurgitation.

This presentation is pretty remarkable and probably would not be confused food poisoning by anyone with a medical background.

Again, I am not excluding any possibilities and I think other possible causes would need to be explored, especially the subtle ones. Arsenic would be a great tool for a sicko in a place where medicine and forensic pathology resources are not super sophisticated. Puffer fish toxin may also be a great choice for being difficult to detect. I don't know much about puffer fish toxin and I AM NOT GOING TO RELY ON THE NET TO FORMULATE AN OPINION ABOUT PUFFER FISH TOXIN. Anyway, stuff like this would be better MOs for someone trying to get away with something.

[MEL1]

One thing that bothers me is two intelligent kids not at keast on them getting help. Perhaps if the took something and they were ashamed or embarrassed to come clean would be an explanation. Either that of the symptoms started out as food poising and then they got overwhelmed quickly while trying to wait it out.

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away (the 1970s) I got food poisoning. My first thought was to ask myself why did I feel so sick as I had not had all that much alcohol to drink. Shortly thereafter I thought, no, not too much drink rather someone had spiked something with some LSD (don't ask me how I might make such an assumption, but this was still the 1970s) as I was hallucinating. It took me hours to get out of bed, and only because the diarrehea was about to erupt so I literally crawled on the floor on all fours and luckily made it to the porcelain goddess in the nick of time. So yes, with poisoning, by the time that you realize just how bad the situation has become it may very well be too late to seek help yourself.

The last word you quoted was 'yourself' - is it not?

There were 2 sisters in the room, one aged 20 and the other 26.

I believe it highly, very highly to a point of 95%, that they did not have the same immune system failures at the same time, and at the same rate!

One of them would have realised the severity of what was happening, seeing their educational reports as truth of course, and would have tried to do anything to raise help.

This systemic approach indicates the something stopped that, as they passed away or prior to those moments. I will say it again, "It stinks".

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

[guyinthailand]

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure. That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/812953-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

[ttelise]

Seems to be more info on this story including that the family members are in route to Thailand and that the same team that worked on the Chang Mai investigation are now working on this case.

Prayers with them and they find what they seek at this juncture. Wonder if its a good idea to use Chang Mai investigators? As long as proper test are run and proper documentation of findings are made, the record could easily be reviewed by a pathalogist back in the states or Canada.

[GentlemanJim]

I don't think you have read all his post have you Guyinthailand.

I read this

Warfarin exposure does not cause spontaneous bleeding of the gums.

and then I read your blind support of his 'warfarin doesn't cause bleeding gums' notion.

and then I read this "More common findings of excessive anticoagulation are ecchymoses, subconjunctival hemorrhage, epistaxis, vaginal bleeding, bleeding gums, or hematuria". http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0256

What more is there to read?

Well there is a lot more actually. If you read GK's post further you would see that he states Vitamin K deficiency is not something that happens quickly, it takes time and can be several days, and also that there are other things that cause bleeding gums. However you have become so obsessed with that point that you really need to spend time awaiting/gathering info instead of jumping to conclusions.

The Doctor who arrived on scene from the hospital has given an interview and actually said

For the first time, Dr Duangporn Paothong of Phi Phi Hospital talked publicly about what she found when she was called to the room at the Palms Residence Phi Phi immediately after a maid discovered the bodies on Friday.

Dr Duangporn said that she had ''never seen a case like it.''

''Both bodies had the same characteristics,'' she said. ''There was a lot of vomit in a wastepaper basket.

''There was blood under their skin, under their tongues and under their eyes. Their fingernails had turned green or purple.

''As for the cause of death, it's impossible to know at this stage,'' she said. ''There just isn't enough information

So, no 'vomit all over the room', but lots of vomit in a wastepaper basket.

No bleeding gums, but blood under the tongue, skin and eyes,

Fingernails, green or purple, not blue.

So yes, there is a lot more to read.

[sportsman69]

All the speculation that is being made here on poisons, cause of death, motives are just that, pure speculation and give no real help or solace to anybody, least of all the grieving parents.

Not true. The speculation on this forum serves a useful purpose. The parents probably don't have a clue about the lying, face-saving, cover-up methods the Thais will employ to make these deaths appear 'natural' and 'excusable'. Family or friends of the family can read these posts and learn of the Thai penchant for cover-up, plus learn about the other 'mysterious' deaths on Phi Phi and Chiang Mai and thereby develop a healthy scepticism for whatever BS the Thais throw at them.

It is only useful when we can discuss and speculate, and every time you turn back up on thread nobody can do that! Here we go again for an other evening of you posting however many links you can to bleeding gums and warfarin and ignoring all the links that may argue against your obsessive theory.

Dear God and Mediators ... where are you ?? Can anyone get this "guyinthailand" guy OFF the TV posts ...? Really he is the most annoying poster I have ever seen .... Pluueeeaaase ! Get him off of here !!! Meant moderators !!! not mediators ... Sorry !

Button left hand bottom corner labelled report. Hit It Anabell

[GentlemanJim]

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure. That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

And the point GK was trying to get through to you is that the bleeding gums from warfarin IS a long term thing. Vitamin K is not eradicated from the body quickly, do you get it now?

Edited June 18, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[ttelise]

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure. That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

Seriously, you are just stating and quoting the same stuff over and over and you are mistating it and only citing portions of complete texts or abstracts. This is intellectual dishonesty at this point.

You are either OCD and ADHD or starving for attention because your parents did not give you enough. Move on already.

[guyinthailand]

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

I had to edit your long-winded quote above and whittle it down because in the entirety of it you said...absolutely nothing.

And I believe 'rat poison' is one possibility. Poisonous mushrooms are another, and perhaps more likely, cause (see above post).

[MEL1]

Arsenic is a major compound in many many brands of rat poison and is also manufactured in a liquid or powdered form that is absorbed through the skin rapidly and is 60 times more toxic than ordinary elemental 'Arsenic'.

aresenic doesn't cause bleeding gums.

Good God man! Do you ever stop? I really feel sorry for your Thai gf - if you happen to haven't having killed her with warfarin yet!

-mel.

[annabel]

Ok well ... a crazy thought but here it goes .... Peanut allergy and seen that cooking here in Thailand uses a lot of peanuts in many dishes could it have been a very strong Peanut allergy ...?? Ok don't laugh or go Gaga .... peanut allergies can cause a quick death ... The British Dietetic Association warns that: "If untreated, anaphylactic shock can result in death due to obstruction of the upper or lower airway (bronchospasm) or hypotension and heart failure. This happens within minutes to hours of eating the peanuts.

Symptoms can include the following:[4]

vomiting

diarrhea

urticaria (hives)

angioedema (swelling of the lips, face, throat and skin)

acute abdominal pain

exacerbation of atopic eczema

asthma anaphylactic shock

The British Dietetic Association warns that: "If untreated, anaphylactic shock can result in death due to obstruction of the upper or lower airway (bronchospasm) or hypotension and heart failure. This happens within minutes to hours of eating the peanuts. The first symptoms may include sneezing and a tingling sensation on the lips, tongue and throat followed by pallor, feeling unwell, warm and light headed. Severe reactions may return after an apparent resolution of 1–6 hours. Asthmatics with peanut sensitivity are more likely to develop life threatening reactions".[4]

The Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America estimates that peanut allergy is one of the most common causes of food-related death.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_allergy

[guyinthailand]

Button left hand bottom corner labelled report. Hit It Anabell

Sportsman69: book a flight for the two of you.

[MEL1]

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

I had to edit your long-winded quote above and whittle it down because in the entirety of it you said...absolutely nothing.

And I believe 'rat poison' is one possibility. Poisonous mushrooms are another, and perhaps more likely, cause (see above post).

Who mentioned you?

You're not that important!

-mel.

Edit: But yeah! You encouraged me to hit the report button too.

More fool your own rhetoric.

-m.

Edited June 18, 2012 by MEL1

[ttelise]

Ok well ... a crazy thought but here it goes .... Peanut allergy and seen that cooking here in Thailand uses a lot of peanuts in many dishes could it have been a very strong Peanut allergy ...?? Ok don't laugh or go Gaga .... peanut allergies can cause a quick death ... The British Dietetic Association warns that: "If untreated, anaphylactic shock can result in death due to obstruction of the upper or lower airway (bronchospasm) or hypotension and heart failure. This happens within minutes to hours of eating the peanuts.

Symptoms can include the following:[4]

vomiting

diarrhea

urticaria (hives)

angioedema (swelling of the lips, face, throat and skin)

acute abdominal pain

exacerbation of atopic eczema

asthma anaphylactic shock

The British Dietetic Association warns that: "If untreated, anaphylactic shock can result in death due to obstruction of the upper or lower airway (bronchospasm) or hypotension and heart failure. This happens within minutes to hours of eating the peanuts. The first symptoms may include sneezing and a tingling sensation on the lips, tongue and throat followed by pallor, feeling unwell, warm and light headed. Severe reactions may return after an apparent resolution of 1–6 hours. Asthmatics with peanut sensitivity are more likely to develop life threatening reactions".[4]

The Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America estimates that peanut allergy is one of the most common causes of food-related death.[

http://en.wikipedia..../Peanut_allergy

I know someone allegrgic to peanuts. They take every precuation imaginable including contacting airlines in advanced to make sure peanuts will not be served on a flight. Airlines do accomodate.

Point being, if they made it this long, they probably so very careful about this and there would be epi pins on them or in the room.

[kjhbigv]

"What bothers me in this story is that only the two sisters have been affected. They MUST have drank or eaten the same thing, and only them."

Exactly! Did no-one else (if it was food poisoning) visit that restaurant/bar that evening? They ate exactly the same thing?

Also, annoying how the media calls it "food poisoning", most people who read the statement "food poisoning" just think of someone having eating something a bit dodgy and spends a while on/in the toilet!

This is much more than your average "food poisoning". It killed two healthy young adults....."poisoned food" would be a more accurate headline (if that what it turns out to be).

IMO, "Poisoned food" implies food deliberately, recklessly, negligently or ignorantly poisoned by someone. Is that the suggestion? There is so far no evidence of human intervention, and it is not conclusive that the cause was food, drink, or other ingested matter. All this speculation is really going nowhere without firm evidence. And i fail to comprehend how browbeating others with one's pet theory is making the situation any better.

Speculation is exactly what is required, together with keeping this thread going......I seem to remember the elderly British couple in CM that died was, at the time, declared a 'coincidental double heart- attack'.....that would have been the official cause of death had it not been for speculation from all and the willingness to find the truth by the NZ girl's father!

I wonder if any of these words will apply to the findings; "recklessly, negligently or ignorantly poisoned"?

Edited June 18, 2012 by kjhbigv

[AnandaSatvha]

So many problems and not enough heroes to solve them?

[Justaword]

Pretty sure that aircon units recirculate the air in the room and not pull air from outside. I could be wrong on that.

All the wall units I have seen in Thailand rooms, yes. The compressor is separated from the fan unit. Mono-bloc, mobile A/C are rare, and all the block is indoors. I have seen in other countries, or industrial installations, small units which pump from outside.

[guyinthailand]

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure (of arsenic). That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

And the point GK was trying to get through to you is that the bleeding gums from warfarin IS a long term thing. Vitamin K is not eradicated from the body quickly, do you get it now?

Sorry you're having trouble reading your sidekick's posts: he said ARSENIC can cause bleeding gums. I showed how it can NOT cause bleeding gums UNLESS it is LONGterm exposure.

And I know warfarin take a while to cause symptoms--24 hours, minimum. I stated that in a much earlier post.

Edited June 18, 2012 by guyinthailand

[guyinthailand]

As for the continued 'assertion' by one member who is becoming a thread killer and cynical user of this site, a spammer almost, about 'rat poisoning'....... do us a favour please? Bog off.

-mel.

I had to edit your long-winded quote above and whittle it down because in the entirety of it you said...absolutely nothing.

And I believe 'rat poison' is one possibility. Poisonous mushrooms are another, and perhaps more likely, cause (see above post).

Who mentioned you?

You're not that important!

-mel.

Edit: But yeah! You encouraged me to hit the report button too.

More fool your own rhetoric.

See, you're doing it again. Making a worthless post because you don't 'like' that I reveal the inconsistencies in your arguments.

Report yourself.

Edited June 18, 2012 by guyinthailand

[annabel]

Button left hand bottom corner labelled report. Hit It Anabell

Sportsman69: book a flight for the two of you.

Man you are really a card but funny enough YOU will be outta here very soon and thank god for that ,,,, Ciao !

[samsiam]

Pretty sure that aircon units recirculate the air in the room and not pull air from outside. I could be wrong on that.

All the wall units I have seen in Thailand rooms, yes. The compressor is separated from the fan unit. Mono-bloc, mobile A/C are rare, and all the block is indoors. I have seen in other countries, or industrial installations, small units which pump from outside.

Yeah....got that wrong I think....we dont have aircon here so been awhile associated with it.

I was thinking along the lines of my car though where you have the vent to open or close......not sure now if home aircons have this type of feature.

[dingdang]

from the newspaper:

A law student, he said he watched with some alarm as the bodies - which he said were garishly akimbo when he first saw them - were taken away and the room spotlessly cleaned.

its destruction of evidence, and it has to be punished.

the police and the doctor should have both informed the staff, that the room mustnt be cleaned. it is their duty and they have learned that.

what does the student mean with "garishly akimbo" - the sisters posture in death?

doesnt the corpse rigid disappear a few hours after death?

--- after 24-48 hours it does

Edited June 18, 2012 by dingdang

[GentlemanJim]

Sorry you're having trouble reading your sidekick's posts: he said ARSENIC can cause bleeding gums. I showed how it can NOT cause bleeding gums UNLESS it is LONGterm exposure.

And I know warfarin take a while to cause symptoms--24 hours, minimum. I stated that in a much earlier post.

Whose side kick are you talking about? First you state Arsenic does not cause bleeding gums

Arsenic is a major compound in many many brands of rat poison and is also manufactured in a liquid or powdered form that is absorbed through the skin rapidly and is 60 times more toxic than ordinary elemental 'Arsenic'.

aresenic doesn't cause bleeding gums.

And then when I provide you with a link to the contrary, you say it does.

GentlemanJim: "Lead, arsenic or mercury poisoning may cause bleeding gums."

Yes, but only if it is CHRONIC (long term) exposure. That is not what happened with these women. They had some sort of acute (sudden) exposure to something (which could be warfarin or poisonous mushrooms--see my post above).

• Acute exposures generally manifest with the cholera-like gastrointestinal symptoms of vomiting (often times bloody) and severe diarrhea (which may be rice-watery in character and often bloody); these patients will experience acute distress, dehydration (often), and hypovolemic shock.
  

Chronic hepatic and renal damage is common with chronic exposure.http://emedicine.med...-clinical#a0217

note: the renal (kidney) damage caused by long-term (chronic) exposure could cause bleeding gums

So Arsenic does cause bleeding gums?

Make your mind up.

So what about the real Doc in the real interview not mentioning bleeding gums?

[GentlemanJim]

So many problems and not enough heroes to solve them?

And judging by your first two posts we can't rely on you to help then.