Thailand's Yellow Shirts Regroup, Seek Comeback

[Moruya]

That my views are somehow biased, I agree with that. Everybody see the word at his own window.

My point is, there is a majority of yellow shirts supporter who post in this forum but the casual visitor shouldn't be misled in believing that they represent the majority of Thai people. Actually quite the opposite.

Thaksin in the only PM in recent history who managed to stay in place for a full term and therefore represents stability in a very volatile political environment. Something the majority of Thai people, both in the countryside and in the business community, crave for.

Beside the international press has always sided by Thaksin, The local press is dominated by a very controversial person, Mr Sondhi Limthongkul, a local Ruppert Murdoch who has been repeatedly convicted for defamation. And who is also PAD historical leader.

That are facts that the casual visitor should know if he really want to understand the current political events.

Please list those who you feel are yellow supporters.

It probably just consists of those who do not agree with you

[jayboy]

And what is more to the point, it helped get rid of a Thaksin proxy government, so was probably cheap at twice the price. Or do you forget how much that slimeball stole from the Thai people?

Given half a chance the usual suspects will fatally incriminate themselves as this one has in the example above.

He is arguing that any crime can be tolerated if it gets rid of a "Thaksin proxy government".Clearly the current government falls into this category so it follows that any action which undermines it can be tolerated regardless of itsl egality or the clearly known wishes of the Thai people.The slight puzzle is that while this attitutude can be understood, if not approved, when coming from entrenched Thai interests, why rootless foreigners might wish to adopt it.

[JurgenG]

Please list those who you feel are yellow supporters.

I'm not a "witch hunt" kind of guy. Read the forum and make up your own mind

[animatic]

If the PTP / Red Shirts stopped trying to bring back Thaksin and whitewash his crimes, the yellow shirts wouldn't need to come out and protest.

It's not that hard, really.

That really is the crux of the matter.

If Thaksin had retired and gone to clip coupons,

like all other deposed proto-dictators in Thailand when they fell,

then NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

He likely would have kept most of his money and have returned and be an elder statesman.

But he couldn't let it go. That mindset he has is EXACTLY why he can't gain hands on

control for long without screwing up and without inadvertently calling PAD or an equivalent,

back into action to stop him.

Edited June 18, 2012 by animatic

[Yunla]

And what is more to the point, it helped get rid of a Thaksin proxy government, so was probably cheap at twice the price. Or do you forget how much that slimeball stole from the Thai people?

Clearly the current government falls into this category so it follows that any action which undermines it can be tolerated regardless of itsl egality or the clearly known wishes of the Thai people.

Do you mean the same "Thai people" whose home addresses were given out to an enraged baying mob recently by the virtuous PTP Govt. Or some different Thai people?

Maybe you shoud suffix that phrase with "those Thai people currently not being threatened with state violence and intimidation at their home addresses".

Edited June 18, 2012 by Yunla

[Nickymaster]

@JurgenG

You stated: Beside the international press has always sided by Thaksin

Wow, you can tell me whatever you want but this is NOT true. Please forward some links to back up this statement.

You can start with Wikipedia (I know it's not the Int. press but you can learn something there).

I will help you. You mostly will read following messages:

Poor love him.

Divisive.

Very corrupt.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Nickymaster

[jonclark]

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's madness.

Edited June 18, 2012 by metisdead

[jayboy]

And what is more to the point, it helped get rid of a Thaksin proxy government, so was probably cheap at twice the price. Or do you forget how much that slimeball stole from the Thai people?

Clearly the current government falls into this category so it follows that any action which undermines it can be tolerated regardless of itsl egality or the clearly known wishes of the Thai people.

Do you mean the same "Thai people" whose home addresses were given out to an enraged baying mob recently by the virtuous PTP Govt. Or some different Thai people?

Maybe you shoud suffix that phrase with "those Thai people currently not being threatened with state violence and intimidation at their home addresses".

I'm not sure your woolly rant is designed to be answered.However the wishes of the Thai people would be accepted by most people as those reflected in the last general election when the current government was given a solid mandate.

[jayboy]

If Thaksin had retired and gone to clip coupons,

like all other deposed proto-dictators in Thailand when they fell,

then NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

He likely would have kept most of his money and have returned and be an elder statesman.

But he couldn't let it go. That mindset he has is EXACTLY why he can't gain hands on

control for long without screwing up and without inadvertently calling PAD or an equivalent,

back into action to stop him.

I know you hold this position sincerely and in fact so do many decent Thais.Some of the leading Democrats I respect (ie excluding people like Suthep) hold very much the same view.

However I think it is profoundly wrong.If Thaksin disapperared today that would certainly eradicate a poison from the system.However the deep fissures in Thai society were not created by Thaksin:he simply exploited them.There would still be a profound division and that would need to be dealt with.

[OzMick]

And what is more to the point, it helped get rid of a Thaksin proxy government, so was probably cheap at twice the price. Or do you forget how much that slimeball stole from the Thai people?

Given half a chance the usual suspects will fatally incriminate themselves as this one has in the example above.

He is arguing that any crime can be tolerated if it gets rid of a "Thaksin proxy government".Clearly the current government falls into this category so it follows that any action which undermines it can be tolerated regardless of itsl egality or the clearly known wishes of the Thai people.The slight puzzle is that while this attitutude can be understood, if not approved, when coming from entrenched Thai interests, why rootless foreigners might wish to adopt it.

ANY crime? Do I condone armed insurrection as a political tool, random and targeted murders, or mass arson?

Actually, I consider the airport occupation as unnecessary. But putting a money value on it and saying that is a measure of its evil, deserves a comparison to the likely corruption it prevented.

Having raised a Thai family, and since being in a stable relationship for the last 6 years, I don't consider myself "rootless" in any sense of the word. The fact that you can't understand why somebody from a western background deplores the actions of a family who have achieved astronomical wealth by stealing from those with the least, says more of your values than mine.

BTW FYI Thaksin's fortune is based on corruption, from his contract to supply computers to the police, to his cable TV licence granted by Chalerm, to his monopoly on mobile phones valued at billions handed to him on a plate. His voracious venality doesn't even allow for a modicum of altruism to disguise his nature.

[Ferangled]

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's <deleted> madness.

Best post yet on this thread, says it all.

The usual suspects are so predictably quick to jump to the defence of their respective violent mobs and shady patrons, yet seemingly blind to the similarities they exhibit and the motivation behind them.

We might as well argue about which is worse to encounter whilst swimming a crocodile or a shark... I'm afraid that eating you is just the nature of the beast regardless of hue.

[phiphidon]

Amazing. So you are saying that the 1 week airport closure was more violent (higher risk) then the few months of terror down-town bangkok.

Where were 20 officials killed? At the airport or at the mob site down-town Bangkok.

Indeed, just where were 20 officials killed? The answer is at neither of those places:

According to Thailand’s Truth for Reconciliation Commission, set up in the uprising’s aftermath, the total death toll includes two cops, three journalists, five medics, eight soldiers and 75 citizens.

http://www.globalpos...ear-anniversary

Edited June 18, 2012 by phiphidon

[OzMick]

If Thaksin had retired and gone to clip coupons,

like all other deposed proto-dictators in Thailand when they fell,

then NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

He likely would have kept most of his money and have returned and be an elder statesman.

But he couldn't let it go. That mindset he has is EXACTLY why he can't gain hands on

control for long without screwing up and without inadvertently calling PAD or an equivalent,

back into action to stop him.

I know you hold this position sincerely and in fact so do many decent Thais.Some of the leading Democrats I respect (ie excluding people like Suthep) hold very much the same view.

However I think it is profoundly wrong.If Thaksin disapperared today that would certainly eradicate a poison from the system.However the deep fissures in Thai society were not created by Thaksin:he simply exploited them.There would still be a profound division and that would need to be dealt with.

Many of the fissure you refer to are based on lies and propaganda. The whole 'judicial coup" BS is an attempt to disguise that he and his proxy parties refuse to comply with electoral law, even when harsh penalties were introduced.

If PTP is disbanded for the blatant breaches in the 2011 election, it will almost certainly lead to bloodshed. Given that those breaches were so blatant, IMHO that was the intent. Having elected a government that promised so much the people would feel robbed of the goodies to come. By delaying their decision, the EC has defused much of that as PTP struggles to deliver even a fraction of what it promised.

[apetley]

I for one would have more sympathy for the PAD cause if they took the trouble to put themselves up for election.

Right now all they appear to be is an unelected minority trying to oust by threat of unrest a democratically elected government.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[CockneyGit]

Reds v Yellow / Yellows v Reds... bla, bla, bla.

Same old, same old and they aren't intelligent enough to realise they are tearing their own country apart..!!

T.I.T

[Yunla]

I'm not sure your woolly rant is designed to be answered.However the wishes of the Thai people would be accepted by most people as those reflected in the last general election when the current government was given a solid mandate.

I assure you it is no woolly rant. I am saddened by the inevitable comments of "PTP got the majority vote", "the people of Thailand wanted PTP" and other nonsense being spouted by yourself and others, as a pre-packaged response to any criticism of the actions of the PTP Govt today during their time in office, there is a chorus of "they speak for Thai people" and "they got the most votes" etc.

What about being able to differentiate between ; they got into power and they are now abusing power. I want to talk about the latter and not the former.

Don't you understand that even if we accept the "PTP majority" and the quirky no-bribes-were-paid stuff, having a government majority does not make it OK to give out home addresses of dissidents or overturn the highest laws in the land to pardon your criminal sibling.

Having got the vote of the "Thai people" as you so wrongly imply, does not excuse the new Govt to behave with impunity and to commit acts of terrorism against their own citizens, including handing out personal home addresses to angry mobs. Being given a mandate is not the same as being given a blackboard eraser where you can rub out the laws you don't personally like and rub out the basic human rights of citizens. (see home-address distribution)

How "woolly" is your thinking that you can not seperate "they got majority vote" from "they are now in power and abusing that power to the hilt". Every time I critise PTP on this forum somebody pipes up "it is the will of the Thai people" and you have no idea how inaccurate, regressive and ugly that type of statement really is.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Yunla

[Ferangled]

If Thaksin had retired and gone to clip coupons,

like all other deposed proto-dictators in Thailand when they fell,

then NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

He likely would have kept most of his money and have returned and be an elder statesman.

But he couldn't let it go. That mindset he has is EXACTLY why he can't gain hands on

control for long without screwing up and without inadvertently calling PAD or an equivalent,

back into action to stop him.

I know you hold this position sincerely and in fact so do many decent Thais.Some of the leading Democrats I respect (ie excluding people like Suthep) hold very much the same view.

However I think it is profoundly wrong.If Thaksin disapperared today that would certainly eradicate a poison from the system.However the deep fissures in Thai society were not created by Thaksin:he simply exploited them.There would still be a profound division and that would need to be dealt with.

Many of the fissure you refer to are based on lies and propaganda. The whole 'judicial coup" BS is an attempt to disguise that he and his proxy parties refuse to comply with electoral law, even when harsh penalties were introduced.

If PTP is disbanded for the blatant breaches in the 2011 election, it will almost certainly lead to bloodshed. Given that those breaches were so blatant, IMHO that was the intent. Having elected a government that promised so much the people would feel robbed of the goodies to come. By delaying their decision, the EC has defused much of that as PTP struggles to deliver even a fraction of what it promised.

What blatant breaches in the 2011 election are you referring to?

Given that they were "so blatant", I assume that you have some evidence of this?

Please expand on this and substantiate if possible, be interested to know if this is just more mud slinging or if you do actually have some pertinent information...

[jonclark]

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's <deleted> madness.

Best post yet on this thread, says it all.

The usual suspects are so predictably quick to jump to the defence of their respective violent mobs and shady patrons, yet seemingly blind to the similarities they exhibit and the motivation behind them.

We might as well argue about which is worse to encounter whilst swimming a crocodile or a shark... I'm afraid that eating you is just the nature of the beast regardless of hue.

Sometimes it feels like they are arguing over which is the best STD to contract, pro-Gonorrhea or pro-Chlamydia.

[JurgenG]

I for one would have more sympathy for the PAD cause if they took the trouble to put themselves up for election.

Right now all they appear to be is an unelected minority trying to oust by threat of unrest a democratically elected government.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

An other post that should be highlighted for the casual visitor to this forum.

The PAD never presented any candidate for any election.

How can you pretend to represent democracy when you refuse to face the electors ?

The PAD is an extremist right wing minority movement that is used by the democrats to embarrass the government.

How democracy fit in that, you tell me ...

[Nickymaster]

Amazing. So you are saying that the 1 week airport closure was more violent (higher risk) then the few months of terror down-town bangkok.

Where were 20 officials killed? At the airport or at the mob site down-town Bangkok.

Indeed, just where were 20 officials killed? The answer is at neither of those places:

According to Thailand’s Truth for Reconciliation Commission, set up in the uprising’s aftermath, the total death toll includes two cops, three journalists, five medics, eight soldiers and 75 citizens.

http://www.globalpos...ear-anniversary

We were talking about which side was more violent, Yellow or Red?

Ok, so the 15 officials where killed during the airport occupation or the city occupation?

[CockneyGit]

This is getting so so stupid now all this here in Thailand and TAT have the cheek to come out with record numbers on tourists to...I have never known a country what so backwards on some strong matters what need to be sorted out... How much longer are these people going to be at one and other throat...

Statistics can be made to show what you want them to show. Each time one of our Malaysian or Cambodian friends hops over the border on the weekend (once, twice) to partake in some "entertainment", each time that is counted on the Immigration database as a tourist arrival..!!

You only have to wander around the touristy areas of BKK, Phuket, Hua Hin, Samui etc. to see for yourself how quiet things have been.

Edited June 18, 2012 by CockneyGit

[OzMick]

I for one would have more sympathy for the PAD cause if they took the trouble to put themselves up for election.

Right now all they appear to be is an unelected minority trying to oust by threat of unrest a democratically elected government.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

In the recent past, all they have done is peacefully protest an attempt to pass a bill containing huge conflicts of interest and which appears to be aimed at self-gratification rather than the claimed intent.

That is their democratic right.

Their has been suggestion, other than rally oratory, that the government should be ousted if it does not proceed with what is perceived as massive corruption.

[jayboy]

And what is more to the point, it helped get rid of a Thaksin proxy government, so was probably cheap at twice the price. Or do you forget how much that slimeball stole from the Thai people?

Given half a chance the usual suspects will fatally incriminate themselves as this one has in the example above.

He is arguing that any crime can be tolerated if it gets rid of a "Thaksin proxy government".Clearly the current government falls into this category so it follows that any action which undermines it can be tolerated regardless of itsl egality or the clearly known wishes of the Thai people.The slight puzzle is that while this attitutude can be understood, if not approved, when coming from entrenched Thai interests, why rootless foreigners might wish to adopt it.

ANY crime? Do I condone armed insurrection as a political tool, random and targeted murders, or mass arson?

Actually, I consider the airport occupation as unnecessary. But putting a money value on it and saying that is a measure of its evil, deserves a comparison to the likely corruption it prevented.

Having raised a Thai family, and since being in a stable relationship for the last 6 years, I don't consider myself "rootless" in any sense of the word. The fact that you can't understand why somebody from a western background deplores the actions of a family who have achieved astronomical wealth by stealing from those with the least, says more of your values than mine.

BTW FYI Thaksin's fortune is based on corruption, from his contract to supply computers to the police, to his cable TV licence granted by Chalerm, to his monopoly on mobile phones valued at billions handed to him on a plate. His voracious venality doesn't even allow for a modicum of altruism to disguise his nature.

If you are going to back pedal it makes sense to address the issues.Your earlier post was quite clear about endorsing any criminality that might get rid of a proxy Thaksin government.

Your understanding of Thaksin's weath accumulation is defective.Nobody suggests Thaksin is pure as the driven snow but in business methods he is not much different from countless other Sino-Thai tycoons, just infinitely more successful.If you regard political influence as corruption, it is not just Thaksin in the firing line but the full panoply of Thai business including sectors that cannot be discussed on this forum.I know you prefer to deal in childish cartoon like ideas but I'm sure there are more serious minded members who would like to know rather more about how exactly Thaksin bevcame so wealthy.I can do no better than recommend as a starting point Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker's "Thaksin".I will quote one relevant passage.

" The fortune Thaksin made over five years beginning in 1990 was quite extraordinary.The booming economy, and the state';s abysmal failure to expand either landline or mobile networks had created enormous unfulfilled demand.The monopolistic concession structure allowed the new mobile suppliers to charge high prices with enormous profit margins.The TOT constructed a built in market advantage for Thaksin because it suited them in their competition with CAT.Finally the stock market pumped up by financial liberalization and a worldwide enthusiasm for emerging marketrs translated the high profits into higher net worth..

His enormous success inevitably inspired rivalry.Competitors understood that Thaksin's success was grounded on political linls, and hence competition was as much political as commercial.Thaksin -and his rivals - were pulled deeper into politics by the nature of their business and by the logic of intensifying competition"

[Nickymaster]

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's <deleted> madness.

Best post yet on this thread, says it all.

The usual suspects are so predictably quick to jump to the defence of their respective violent mobs and shady patrons, yet seemingly blind to the similarities they exhibit and the motivation behind them.

We might as well argue about which is worse to encounter whilst swimming a crocodile or a shark... I'm afraid that eating you is just the nature of the beast regardless of hue.

Sometimes it feels like they are arguing over which is the best STD to contract, pro-Gonorrhea or pro-Chlamydia.

Please understand that people tend to argue on FORUMS. I's just a hot topic.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Nickymaster

[jayboy]

Every time I critise PTP on this forum somebody pipes up "it is the will of the Thai people" and you have no idea how inaccurate, regressive and ugly that type of statement really is.

Not at all.It is entirely legitimate to criticise the PTP led government.Indeed I do so myself.

If some give carte blanche to the government simply because they won the last general election, that clearly is unacceptable.

Equally unacceptable is the suggestion that somehow the current government does not have a legitimate mandate from the Thai people.It does and it is rock solid and not compromised in the way the previous government was.

[OzMick]

If Thaksin had retired and gone to clip coupons,

like all other deposed proto-dictators in Thailand when they fell,

then NONE OF THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE.

He likely would have kept most of his money and have returned and be an elder statesman.

But he couldn't let it go. That mindset he has is EXACTLY why he can't gain hands on

control for long without screwing up and without inadvertently calling PAD or an equivalent,

back into action to stop him.

I know you hold this position sincerely and in fact so do many decent Thais.Some of the leading Democrats I respect (ie excluding people like Suthep) hold very much the same view.

However I think it is profoundly wrong.If Thaksin disapperared today that would certainly eradicate a poison from the system.However the deep fissures in Thai society were not created by Thaksin:he simply exploited them.There would still be a profound division and that would need to be dealt with.

Many of the fissure you refer to are based on lies and propaganda. The whole 'judicial coup" BS is an attempt to disguise that he and his proxy parties refuse to comply with electoral law, even when harsh penalties were introduced.

If PTP is disbanded for the blatant breaches in the 2011 election, it will almost certainly lead to bloodshed. Given that those breaches were so blatant, IMHO that was the intent. Having elected a government that promised so much the people would feel robbed of the goodies to come. By delaying their decision, the EC has defused much of that as PTP struggles to deliver even a fraction of what it promised.

What blatant breaches in the 2011 election are you referring to?

Given that they were "so blatant", I assume that you have some evidence of this?

Please expand on this and substantiate if possible, be interested to know if this is just more mud slinging or if you do actually have some pertinent information...

You didn't see the PTP slogan "Thaksin thinks - PTP acts" or are you unaware that the use of banned politicians contravenes electoral law?

Are you also unaware that the EC has resolved most of the complaints against PTP into 3 major cases, one concerned with the above, and 2 related to appointment of unsuitable candidates? Any one of the 3 cases could see PTP disbanded.

There is a recent thread on those 3 cases.

[jonclark]

What the hell is wrong with people on this forum. You waste your days arguing over who is worst - the reds or they yellows - they did this, well, they did that, she said this, she said that, he's good, he's bad. They started it.

Both sides are wrong, both sides have done illegal and damaging things to the country and both sides use each others illegal actions to justify their illegal actions. It's <deleted> madness.

Best post yet on this thread, says it all.

The usual suspects are so predictably quick to jump to the defence of their respective violent mobs and shady patrons, yet seemingly blind to the similarities they exhibit and the motivation behind them.

We might as well argue about which is worse to encounter whilst swimming a crocodile or a shark... I'm afraid that eating you is just the nature of the beast regardless of hue.

Sometimes it feels like they are arguing over which is the best STD to contract, pro-Gonorrhea or pro-Chlamydia.

Please understand that poeple tend to argue on FORUMS.

I understand the concept. But not the fact that people argue the same topics, with the same people, using the same arguments on a daily basis. Would you do the same thing in a relationship?

[jayboy]

Many of the fissure you refer to are based on lies and propaganda. The whole 'judicial coup" BS is an attempt to disguise that he and his proxy parties refuse to comply with electoral law, even when harsh penalties were introduced.

If PTP is disbanded for the blatant breaches in the 2011 election, it will almost certainly lead to bloodshed. Given that those breaches were so blatant, IMHO that was the intent. Having elected a government that promised so much the

You didn't see the PTP slogan "Thaksin thinks - PTP acts" or are you unaware that the use of banned politicians contravenes electoral law?

Are you also unaware that the EC has resolved most of the complaints against PTP into 3 major cases, one concerned with the above, and 2 related to appointment of unsuitable candidates? Any one of the 3 cases could see PTP disbanded.

There is a recent thread on those 3 cases.

More evidence that the usual suspects end up demolishing their own positions.Incredibly this one is still fantasising about the legtimacy of the last general election.

[Moruya]

Please list those who you feel are yellow supporters.

I'm not a "witch hunt" kind of guy. Read the forum and make up your own mind

I've been reading the forum for several years and whilst I find that there are many people who oppose the Reds for a number of reasons, I can't think of too many that are pro-yellow. Yet there are many on here who are pro-red.

[Ferangled]

You didn't see the PTP slogan "Thaksin thinks - PTP acts" or are you unaware that the use of banned politicians contravenes electoral law?

Are you also unaware that the EC has resolved most of the complaints against PTP into 3 major cases, one concerned with the above, and 2 related to appointment of unsuitable candidates? Any one of the 3 cases could see PTP disbanded.

There is a recent thread on those 3 cases.

So your perceived electoral breaches are actually objections to certain campaign slogans and the appointment of unsuitable candidates... as an attempt to question the legitimacy of the last election the phrase "clutching at straws" comes to mind.