Scottish Football...The Dereliction Thread.

[MrRed]

What is happening in Scottish football these days?

The SPL is in a complete mess if team 12 does not regain league status,the national team is dire to say the least with no decent footballers(fit)to speak of and non coming through that i can see?

I mean who would you realistically think is good enough even to get into the Olympic squad never mind the team,there really is not a decent Scottish footballer about is there?

And to add the English FA in their pitying wisdom have given the Scots a game to celebrate 150 years of the FA!

The Scottish FA really need to get there act together over the coming year as Team 12 and Celtic will be lucky to get into the Uni-bond League never mind the Championship!

Whit's fur ye'll no go by ye!

Edit....Can the last one out turn the lights off!!

Edited June 19, 2012 by MrRed

[smokie36]

The disturbing thing is MrRed I am in total agreement.

Lack of investment in the youth and school age talent in Scotland has been a disgrace for 25 years now. The SFA board should all be sacked immediately!

Complete bunch of tossers they are and the chairmen at all of the "top" clubs should hang their heads in shame.

We need to train loads of proper coaches to teach from the age of 7 upwards...then we will see players of real quality emerge....until then we will remain the butt of your jokes sadly.

[MrRed]

It is Sad,the way it is going i can see the Welsh becoming a bigger and better National League...actually it already is most probably and the National side is better without a doubt.

What i can't understand is all the great managers are from Scotland but that is where it ends.

[smokie36]

Too many foreign players and no long term strategy in place. Hibs had a cracking youth program going 10-15 years ago but saw their upcoming stars poached by the Glasgow clubs continually.

Its a sad state of affairs all right.

[carmine]

Too many foreign players and no long term strategy in place. Hibs had a cracking youth program going 10-15 years ago but saw their upcoming stars poached by the Glasgow clubs continually.

Its a sad state of affairs all right.

Do scottish schoolboys no longer play the game and attend football management programmes instead?

[smokie36]

Too many foreign players and no long term strategy in place. Hibs had a cracking youth program going 10-15 years ago but saw their upcoming stars poached by the Glasgow clubs continually.

Its a sad state of affairs all right.

Do scottish schoolboys no longer play the game and attend football management programmes instead?

I'd place the blame at the level of coaching ability in Scotland. You talk about quality managers but I don't see that in evidence in the Scottish game itself.

[MrMuddle]

I think the whole Scottish premier league set-up is wrong, there are not enough teams, it gets boring playing the same sides over and over, and there are only two possible winners. The Scottish premier league is the least competitive in Europe, even Spain with it's own two club giants Real Madrid and Barcelona, has seen other clubs win the title in the not so distant past, I can't remember when a team outside of the Big Firm last won the league. (But I'm going to Google it, out of curiosity). Even with a points deduction, Rangers finished comfortably in second place this past season. Before next season's fixtures were announced, Celtic manager Neil Lennon was talking about European competition being his priority next season, which leads to the assumption that he feels the league title's as good as in the bag already. How must supporters of the other clubs in the league feel about that?

I agree with the comment about the Hibs youth programme being raided by the big two....perhaps a rule to prevent Rangers and Celtic buying more than one player every three years from a rival club would solve the problem ? It would certainly make the league a bit more competitive.

Where the young, talented, Scottish players have gone is a mystery. Twenty or thirty years ago, most successful English teams had a Scot or two, in their team, but the talent is no longer coming through.

Scotland's captain, Fletcher, isn't even assured of a regular first team place at club level (when he's fit), so what does that say about the rest of Scotland's squad?

Maybe it's the life style followed by Scottish kids, too many competing, and less energetic, attractions for their time.

[smokie36]

From memory and without googling I will say Dundee Utd...maybe 1987.

[MrMuddle]

From memory and without googling I will say Dundee Utd...maybe 1987.

I did Google, because I couldn't remember !

Since 1965, when Kilmarnock won the title, only Aberdeen, (in 1980, 1984, &1985), and Dundee United (in 1983) have taken the title away from Rangers and Celtic. That statistic in itself should be obvious that something seriously needs to change, for the good of the game as a whole, in Scotland.

[smokie36]

From memory and without googling I will say Dundee Utd...maybe 1987.

I did Google, because I couldn't remember !

Since 1965, when Kilmarnock won the title, only Aberdeen, (in 1980, 1984, &1985), and Dundee United (in 1983) have taken the title away from Rangers and Celtic. That statistic in itself should be obvious that something seriously needs to change, for the good of the game as a whole, in Scotland.

Just goes to show...my memory is shot....I think '87 Dundee Utd made the UEFA Cup final....maybe that's what confused me.

Its a disgrace whatever. Bring back two leagues of twenty clubs. Much better.....this current set up is only so the "big two" can play each other four times a season.

And they have a veto over the other ten clubs in the league....absolutely ridiculous!

[LucidLucifer]

This is just conjecture, but a point was made that if you went back 20 years (pre-premiership) all good first division English teams had a Scot or two in their side. It is true.

So has the Premier League had an adverse effect on the quality of Scottish players? It is often said that it has affected the depth of English talent.

Not enough young players are getting regular top flight games (both English and Scots), and are thus restricted to playing in lower leagues, be that the SPL or football league.

Just a thought.

[somtampet]

Scottish football is a total mess and we all know Celtic will win the spl this season,and for some strange reason the celtic mob think its good.

[smokie36]

Scottish football is a total mess and we all know Celtic will win the spl this season,and for some strange reason the celtic mob think its good.

You can't blame their fans though. No the game needs restructuring and the SFA bigwigs need to be sacked...one and all!

[smokie36]

This is just conjecture, but a point was made that if you went back 20 years (pre-premiership) all good first division English teams had a Scot or two in their side. It is true.

So has the Premier League had an adverse effect on the quality of Scottish players? It is often said that it has affected the depth of English talent.

Not enough young players are getting regular top flight games (both English and Scots), and are thus restricted to playing in lower leagues, be that the SPL or football league.

Just a thought.

It begs the question Why?....its not as if there is a shortage of young players.....is it desire...coaching...cheaper foreign options?

I don't know...but something is clearly wrong!!

[LucidLucifer]

It begs the question Why?....its not as if there is a shortage of young players.....is it desire...coaching...cheaper foreign options?

Probably all of the above, and the fact it is probably easier and less risky to play an established/proven overseas player, than to take a chance on blooding an unknown youngster. There are exceptions of course, but precious few.

The Premier League is so money and results driven, and we all know the life expectancy of the average manager is perilously short, possibly they don't feel they can take the risk of giving the youngsters their break.

Edited June 20, 2012 by LucidLucifer

[rijit]

yeah it's difficult to pin down the demise on any one thing, and your probably right a total restructuring is needed and 2 divisions re installed,.

What about gate money, is it split equally like it used to be in England ? or like England now, where home clubs keep all isH, so the big clubs get bigger and the small clubs, ultimately, get smaller.!!!

Edited June 20, 2012 by rijit

[nev]

So there is talk of Rangers buying Bury f c, with a plan to moving them to Scotland with plans to playing in the English league and playing Bury's in Scotland, not a silly idea on Rangers part if they can pull it off, maybe Celtic to the Irish league, then Scotish football would be dead, other talk Rangers will start in Scotish league 3.

[LucidLucifer]

So there is talk of Rangers buying Bury f c, with a plan to moving them to Scotland with plans to playing in the English league and playing Bury's in Scotland, not a silly idea on Rangers part if they can pull it off, maybe Celtic to the Irish league, then Scotish football would be dead, other talk Rangers will start in Scotish league 3.

I had to google this one, as I couldn't find any mention of it on the BBC.

The report was in The Sun, so is probably a load of b0ll0cks.

Even if it was true, I can't see them getting approval, just as Wimbledon didn't get their proposed move to Dublin off the ground.

Personally, I would tentatively agree with Rangers playing in England, but only if it was Rangers, and not them coming in through the backdoor like this.

My objection is that it would destroy a club (Bury). As a supporter of a lower league club myself, I vehemently oppose this idea, it's disgusting.....

It is downright disrepectful to the club and fans of Bury, and is just another example of the arrogance of Rangers. That arrogance is likely the main reason the other SPL clubs are rubbing their hands at the prospect of getting rid of them.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LucidLucifer

[ScotsExpat]

Sorry MrRed, but I can't agree with you..

Since there exists only 11 actual football teams, with facilities, players, the money to pay those players and, more importantly, an SPL license, who is this team you want to 'regain SPL status'?

The club Glasgow Rangers, that currently holds the 12th SPL licence, has no facilities and no money. The question is who shall the SPL allow to take over this licence.

SEVCO 5088 have applied. They have a ground, until such time as HMRC, or any other creditor of the late Rangers, applies for Gratuitous Alienation, thus challenging SEVCO's rights to purchase the facilities for a sum massively below market rates. But, they appear to have no money (I say appear, because Charles Green, the sole Director of SEVCO 5088, has yet to divulge the comlete list of financial backers or the working capital he has at his disposal), and they have no players.

The SFA states that clubs applying for league membership should (that's should, not have to) provide 3 years accounts to show the club is on a firm financial footing. RFC(IL) nor SEVCO 5088 have been able to do so.

Both Dunfermline and Dundee have a far stronger claim to the rights to purchase the licence than SEVCO 5088 have and, as a result, I firmly believe the decision should be which of the two are admitted to the SPL.

If SEVCO 5088 want to create a football team that plays in Govan, then they should apply to the SFA then the SFL for admittance to Div 3, just like every club has to.

Onto the overall state of Scottish football.

The SPL was created in 1998. Funnily enough, that coincidentally is the same year that Scotland last qualified for any major championship (WC France). Since then, the OF have either almost ceased to exist or have actually crashed and burned.

The reason for this was simple. The SPL was set up so blatantly to benefit the OF, that both teams felt able to gamble millions on the nasis that European income would bail them through. When that didn't happen, one club actually decided to attempt to defraud the very state that they so vehemently support...

Frankly, Scottish football NEEDS a shake up, it NEEDS a visible sign to chairmen and boards of directors that, whilst football is a business, it cannot survive so obviously to serve the minority.

If SEVCO 5088 win the vote (SPL state they require 8 teams, including themselves, to gain the licence, however, the SPL's own rule book shows this is not exactly correct), Scottish football WILL die.

No business can survive without customers. If you doubt that, ask Gerald Ratner...

[LucidLucifer]

No business can survive without customers. If you doubt that, ask Gerald Ratner...

Let's hope the SPL chairmen don't do a Ratner then and admit their product is 'crap.'

[ScotsExpat]

No business can survive without customers. If you doubt that, ask Gerald Ratner...

Let's hope the SPL chairmen don't do a Ratner then and admit their product is 'crap.'

The chairmen have been left in no doubt what their 'customers' want. The overriding feeling from all clubs fans, excluding the TTFKAGR (all Prince fans should be able to work that one out..) is that they have not only defrauded the government and, ergo, the entire country out of taxes that may top 100 million pounds, they have also defrauded every football club in Scotland.

Teams have been thrown out of the League for much less. To kow-tow to the crowd from Govan will have consequences far greater than a supposed reduction in revenue for a few years...

[JacknDanny]

This is just conjecture, but a point was made that if you went back 20 years (pre-premiership) all good first division English teams had a Scot or two in their side. It is true.

So has the Premier League had an adverse effect on the quality of Scottish players? It is often said that it has affected the depth of English talent.

Not enough young players are getting regular top flight games (both English and Scots), and are thus restricted to playing in lower leagues, be that the SPL or football league.

Just a thought.

Just racking my brains back to the 80s ish era, when there was a seemingly large number of Scots playing English football.

Thinking Archie Gemmell/ Joe Jordan/Duncan Ferguson/Andy Gray/Graham Souness/Gordon Strachan/Billy Bremner/ etc etc.

Good players, all of them...... but snappers!! I think the English game just moved on, and left the Scots to fight their own battles up north

[ScotsExpat]

This is just conjecture, but a point was made that if you went back 20 years (pre-premiership) all good first division English teams had a Scot or two in their side. It is true.

So has the Premier League had an adverse effect on the quality of Scottish players? It is often said that it has affected the depth of English talent.

Not enough young players are getting regular top flight games (both English and Scots), and are thus restricted to playing in lower leagues, be that the SPL or football league.

Just a thought.

Just racking my brains back to the 80s ish era, when there was a seemingly large number of Scots playing English football.

Thinking Archie Gemmell/ Joe Jordan/Duncan Ferguson/Andy Gray/Graham Souness/Gordon Strachan/Billy Bremner/ etc etc.

Good players, all of them...... but snappers!! I think the English game just moved on, and left the Scots to fight their own battles up north

I personelly feel that the introduction of European managers and players has changed English football massively. In the days of Leeds, Liverpool etc carrying 25% - 50 % of their first team as Scots, the Scottish and English games were similar. Played by men, no diva's and God help you if you didn't get straight up after a career ending tackle to have a square go at the opponent who dunnit.

In those days, the whole of the British Isles would look at the European game and laugh at the antics of their players, diving, faking leg breaks etc. Now, in the EPL, its taken as part of the game. The Scottish game has not been corrupted to the same extent, hence our players are unsuitable for the League. Mind you, when you look at the crop of youth coming through in England, it appears that home grown English players struggle to achieve their RADA degrees....

[rijit]

I'm opposed to the idea of Rangers joining the English football league, people can come up with various analogies why they should but if spoken honestly,imo, alls its about is money and little if nothing to do with football, 4 me not a good enuf reason, as for buying bury and sliding in through the bac door, well as some said it came from the sun so probably its <deleted>. But from the reaction I've seen milton Keynes get oh and i think they've done a great job with the stadium ect ect , fans country wide would be totally anti them But if they were allowed to join, wouldn't it be cataclysmic for Scottish football?

[ScotsExpat]

I'm opposed to the idea of Rangers joining the English football league, people can come up with various analogies why they should but if spoken honestly,imo, alls its about is money and little if nothing to do with football, 4 me not a good enuf reason, as for buying bury and sliding in through the bac door, well as some said it came from the sun so probably its <deleted>. But from the reaction I've seen milton Keynes get oh and i think they've done a great job with the stadium ect ect , fans country wide would be totally anti them But if they were allowed to join, wouldn't it be cataclysmic for Scottish football?

This is where the fans of TTFKAGR get all confused....

Currently, we are being told by all fans of said ex-team and by the sycophants in Scottish West Coast media (WEEGIA) that Scottish football cannot survive without either of the OF..

Yet its only a few seasons since both members of the OF were claiming that a move to the English leagues by them would be good for Scottish football.

You can't have it both ways and, as a supporter of one of the other 10 SPL teams, I personally feel that we would be better off, not necessarily financially, without them.

[smokie36]

Two leagues would be great...I could have a wee weekend away to Glasgow twice a year!

[LucidLucifer]

You can't have it both ways and, as a supporter of one of the other 10 SPL teams, I personally feel that we would be better off, not necessarily financially, without them.

Without them, at least you would have a genuine competition. From a fans perspective, I can only think that would be a great thing.

Send Rangers to England (but not as Bury) and Celtic to Ireland.....good for everyone.

[ScotsExpat]

You can't have it both ways and, as a supporter of one of the other 10 SPL teams, I personally feel that we would be better off, not necessarily financially, without them.

Without them, at least you would have a genuine competition. From a fans perspective, I can only think that would be a great thing.

Send Rangers to England (but not as Bury) and Celtic to Ireland.....good for everyone.

Problem there is the same issue that the lower division teams here are looking at. If the new club were to enter the 3rd Division in Scotland, the other Div 3 teams may well look at it as Mission Impossible to gain promotion. This, of course, assumes that all the die hard TTFKAGR fans buy up season tickets for a new club built from the ashes of TTFKAGR, thus giving the new club some funds to retain a proportion of their team, thus ensuring the side is to strong for their opponents. This would be mimiced season after season until they gained protion to the SPL.

League of Ireland and Conference teams would certainly have to consider that if determining the pro's/con's of admitting a new club.

Short term financial benefit, maybe, but a reduced chance of promotion if the new team retained a full time, finacnially viable position.

This all assumes that the fan base remains the same as it has been over the last 20 years. I can recall following my team to Ibrox in the early / mid-eighties and TTFKAGR only managing 5000 home supporters... TTFKAGR have, historically, had a very fickle fan base. You can see from some of the comments on blogs and articles throughout the Intraweb that many of the 'true' supporters are being drowned out by the more vocal nutters that have attached themselves to a 'winning' team. I wonder how many will stick by them through the 'thin'....

[rijit]

Too many foreign players and no long term strategy in place. Hibs had a cracking youth program going 10-15 years ago but saw their upcoming stars poached by the Glasgow clubs continually.

Its a sad state of affairs all right.

, Saw this today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18520776

wonder whether this will improve the club long term

My Connection was poor so couldn't listen to either interviews.

[smokie36]

Too many foreign players and no long term strategy in place. Hibs had a cracking youth program going 10-15 years ago but saw their upcoming stars poached by the Glasgow clubs continually.

Its a sad state of affairs all right.

, Saw this today

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18520776

wonder whether this will improve the club long term

My Connection was poor so couldn't listen to either interviews.

I doubt it....Miller is a legend and a man the kids would look to for inspiration and guidance. A sad day for Aberdeen.....which even leaves a smokie like me a tad disappointed.

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