Working For Us Company Remotely In Thailand, Work Permit?

[pcruzer]

pur paranoia!

thai immigration only cares if you are selling & collecting money to people in thailand.

us citizens can setup a company with NO thai employees or share holders under the Amity provision but all the legal beagles would rather get lots of geld from you to setup a thai company....

[TravelerEastWest]

If married to a Thai the requirement for the number of employees required is only 2.

Plus the work permit can be issued for a sole proprietor business.

I was told in Bangkok by Sunbelt that this was no longer possible.

Have you seen work permits issued for a sole proprietorship in the last year?

[Arkady]

This is a Catch 22 situation. You should have a work permit to do any type of work in Thailand whether it is paid or not but you cannot get a work permit without a local company to sponsor you. The only way to be legal would be to start a company which is a significant expense and you will need four Thai employees too. Both you and the company will have to pay tax. I had a friend who did IT work for a large multinational for many years from his home base in Thailand and from various places they sent him around the world on short assignments with all money paid in the home country. Since there was no practical way to get work permit he didn't bother. Realistically the chances of getting caught are close to nil, if you keep a low profile. The people who get arrested are usually caught working in offices, schools or other workplaces likes bars and restaurants and mostly as a result of a complaint by a disgruntled employee or a business competitor, although there are random checks in downtown office blocks. I know more than one person who got done as a result of a complaint and the court accepted as evidence that they had business cards printed up with the Thai business name and address on them, so they couldn't argue they were just visiting the office. The Labour Ministry inspectors are in the habit of asking office receptions for details of any foreigners working there and asking the receptionist for their name cards without at first disclosing where they are from.

[Arkady]

If married to a Thai the requirement for the number of employees required is only 2.

Plus the work permit can be issued for a sole proprietor business.

I was told in Bangkok by Sunbelt that this was no longer possible.

Have you seen work permits issued for a sole proprietorship in the last year?

The law allows for work permits to be issued for any kind of business unit, including sole proprietorships and all the different types of partnership but in practice the Labour Ministry will not normally issue them. Exceptions may be large businesses that for reasons of their own choose not to incorporate. Even these would probably be forced to provide audited accounts which not otherwise required for sole proprietorships and unregistered partnerships and that would rather defeat the object of these types of business format.

[Arkady]

There is just too much BS being talked here on this subject.

If you work for a USA company that has no Thailand offices etc and you are paid into a US bank account then you do not need a work permit if you are just doing work on your computer.

I know this because over the years I have checked with immigration IN PERSON and asked the exact same question, each time the immigration officers have told me

1/ We are not interested in these circumstances and

2/ You cannot apply for a work permit in these circumstances anyway.

I appreciate (of course) that work permits are not issued by immigration and so i have checked answer 2 with the relevant authority and it's confirmed.

Of course, depending on how you read the law (written in Thai of course, and don't expect an accurate translation on here) you may disagree on how the letter of the law applies, but as with everything it's the application of the law and the way it's interpreted that matters.

Regarding the tracking down and deportation BS, show me 1 instance of someone being deported for 1st offence of working without a permit.. you cannot, the maximum penalty is a small fine for 1st offence and thats for real working without a permit like running a shop or a bar etc. In fact it's much more serious to have an inappropriate work permit or to have a work permit and not be working!

I agree with what you say but would qualify a couple of points. Technically any type of work requires a work permit but it is not possible or practical in these circumstances, short of setting up a company, and they have no obvious means or interest to go after people working at home.

It is rare for anyone to be deported or imprisoned for a first WP offence but a Thai lawyer once told me he had a client who got deported and blacklisted for his first offence. The lawyer appealed to the Minister for him on the compassionate grounds that he had a new born Thai baby but the appeal was rejected. There must have been something more to the story that I wasn't told, e..g an existing criminal record for something else or he had pissed off some powerful person badly, but clearly deportation is possible for a first offence. as well as blacklisting, though it must extremely rare.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Arkady

[stefb1964]

I've been reading this topic with quite some interest and it's astonishing to me when reading that some of you guys openly lure one into breaking laws, encouraging one to probably work illegally in Thailand.

In my country and I guess in many other countries, this could be considered as a crime as well.

I'd be very cautious in what you are writing here and wish you don't become a subject of investigation of some Thai authority whom might be reading these forum too.

[WAERTH]

To the OP. My experience in almost 15 years here is simple.

Be very wary of other foreigners. Every single time I have seen myself or friends get into trouble in Thailand it was because another foreigner whom was jealous of me/them decided that (s)he didn't like that the other was doing well and they were not. So I/they were fuc_ked over by the other foreigner. I have never from first hand experience seen a normal Thai causing trouble. Unless off course something was done to upset the Thai personally (not even competition wise!), in which case local thugs were used but never the police.

So just be aware of other foreigners especially people whom are from the same country/city as you naturally trust them easier. They will be the first one to try and cause you trouble!

[Etrazine]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

You say you are system administrator. Then you should know that if they want, they can track down every keystroke on your computer as long as you are online. Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

What a pile of scaremongering BS, sounds like you watch far too much CSI. As someone who has been working in IT and Internet security for over 15 years I can assure you that it is impossible to do what you are describing unless your computer has been severely infected...

[crobe]

There is just too much BS being talked here on this subject.

If you work for a USA company that has no Thailand offices etc and you are paid into a US bank account then you do not need a work permit if you are just doing work on your computer.

I know this because over the years I have checked with immigration IN PERSON and asked the exact same question, each time the immigration officers have told me

1/ We are not interested in these circumstances and

2/ You cannot apply for a work permit in these circumstances anyway.

I appreciate (of course) that work permits are not issued by immigration and so i have checked answer 2 with the relevant authority and it's confirmed.

Of course, depending on how you read the law (written in Thai of course, and don't expect an accurate translation on here) you may disagree on how the letter of the law applies, but as with everything it's the application of the law and the way it's interpreted that matters.

Regarding the tracking down and deportation BS, show me 1 instance of someone being deported for 1st offence of working without a permit.. you cannot, the maximum penalty is a small fine for 1st offence and thats for real working without a permit like running a shop or a bar etc. In fact it's much more serious to have an inappropriate work permit or to have a work permit and not be working!

This is probably the closest reply you will get

If your company is in the US and does not intend to set up a Thai branch or office, then you are not officially "working" in Thailand and the authorities are not interested in you as you are not working for a Thai company or selling goods or services in Thailand.

Without a company you cannot get a business visa, cannot get a work permit etc.

You are therefore on a tourist visa and like every other tourist who gets calls and e-mails from his office you deal with these - the Thai authorities are not interested in checking every tourist to see if they are doing work e-mails.

I presume there is someone at the company in the US taking care of the day-to-day aspects.

The problem you will have is that you will always be on 30 day tourist visas and if/when the Thais want to crack down on this and only allow a certain number of these per year - or a mandatory gap of some months between visas, then you could be screwed.

You will also be in trouble is the app you develop gets sold in Thailand as then you will be earning money in Thailand and subject to the work laws, so at that point you better get fully legal.

[ripstanley]

To the OP. My experience in almost 15 years here is simple.

Be very wary of other foreigners. Every single time I have seen myself or friends get into trouble in Thailand it was because another foreigner whom was jealous of me/them decided that (s)he didn't like that the other was doing well and they were not. So I/they were fuc_ked over by the other foreigner. I have never from first hand experience seen a normal Thai causing trouble. Unless off course something was done to upset the Thai personally (not even competition wise!), in which case local thugs were used but never the police.

So just be aware of other foreigners especially people whom are from the same country/city as you naturally trust them easier. They will be the first one to try and cause you trouble!

I think it is called Jealousy. Very nasty disease

[KeyserSoze01]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

You say you are system administrator. Then you should know that if they want, they can track down every keystroke on your computer as long as you are online. Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

What a pile of scaremongering BS, sounds like you watch far too much CSI. As someone who has been working in IT and Internet security for over 15 years I can assure you that it is impossible to do what you are describing unless your computer has been severely infected...

Well, you learn something everyday. I've been in IT for 30+ year and in network security for over 20. It is definitely possible to track all IP activity from a single IP to anywhere else in the world. It all depends on what type of NIDS devices are monitoring traffic on the edge routers into / out of the country. A NIDS device logs all packets sent to / from an IP. This technology requires zero software being installed on the target PC. Encrypting the traffic would slow down someone monitoring traffic, but would not stop them. Of course, authorities would have to know your IP address and provider, plus just how bad they want to catch you. Hardly seems worthy to track down someone working "illegally" in the country. It all depends on how bad they want to know what you are doing.

[horsewell]

All web sites know that I am in Thailand. Some give me Thai script and others just display my country as Thailand. Google doesn't let me log onto my friends accounts to help them with IT issues on occasion. However (IANAL), I don't think they are really worried unless your creating pornography, scamming people or other wisely overtly obviously doing something that would attract a lot of attention.

The person who said jealousy was probably spot on. It's also spot on that if you have problems with a Thai they would probably handle it in some way outside the authorities. It's better to not talk about what you are doing and how much you are making. Keeping all the money outside of Thailand and only transferring money via your bank to your Thai bank.

Plausible deniability is the key.

Edited July 15, 2012 by horsewell

[Muggi1968]

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account.

Seriously, I doubt anyone wise enough to be able to work online would be that stupid to get paid directly to a Thai account. If you have an offshore company, you get paid to the offshore bank. The thing about thousands being tracked and deported sooner or later is just bullsh*t, does not make any sense. These people spend money in Thailand, and Thailand needs them. If they ever change the law and allow them to open a sole proprietorship in here, Thai economy would gain even more of their money in terms of the tax and also services provided through the accountants etc. For now, this is a net income for the offshore countries.

You are right BUT:

This is "Thai-land". Not everything here is what farrang call "Logic".

If you get caught you can get up to 100000 Bath in fine and 2 years in prison.

I know to incidents (2 Danes) who were caught:

They had to pay 100000 Bath each in fine.

Because they choose to leave Thailand voluntary and pay for the deportation, they did not go to prison.

But they where listed as "not wanted in the Thai kingdom" .

(A little annoying when you are married)

I am in the same situation: I can earn money on internet but I choose not to.

If I work on internet my wife and her family will know.

My thai friends will find out eventually.

And thai's are not discrete (They(wemon) talk a lot) .

And when the local ampour find out it will not matter to argue with them even if

you are working for the god of Thailand.

You are a farrang in Thailand. You will always "Lose" no matter how right you are.

But if you stay out of trouble and are open minded, Thailand is a great country.

I love it despite it's weird and non-logic thinking.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Muggi1968

[Mario2008]

The maximum sentence is a jail term of 5 years and/or a 100,000 baht fine.

[Soutpeel]

I know this because over the years I have checked with immigration IN PERSON and asked the exact same question, each time the immigration officers have told me

1/ We are not interested in these circumstances and

2/ You cannot apply for a work permit in these circumstances anyway.

I appreciate (of course) that work permits are not issued by immigration and so i have checked answer 2 with the relevant authority and it's confirmed.

Of course, depending on how you read the law (written in Thai of course, and don't expect an accurate translation on here) you may disagree on how the letter of the law applies, but as with everything it's the application of the law and the way it's interpreted that matters.

Regarding the tracking down and deportation BS, show me 1 instance of someone being deported for 1st offence of working without a permit.. you cannot, the maximum penalty is a small fine for 1st offence and thats for real working without a permit like running a shop or a bar etc. In fact it's much more serious to have an inappropriate work permit or to have a work permit and not be working!

And of course immigration and the DOL provided you with a letter which states this as fact ?.....if not....then what you have been "told" is worthless....further....WP's are handled by the DOL, not immigration and to counter what immmigration told you....

I believe is was last year or the year before were Phuket immigration came out and stated publically that they considered anyone living in Thailand and working on-line would require a WP and please report anyone who was working on-line without one.

The law as is currently written is open to interpretation by the indivdual official concerned, so unless you have something in writing from immigration or the DOL....you dont have a leg to stand on if caught.

As regards 1st offense...etc etc....there is nothing in the current law which differentiates 1st offense, 2nd offense etc etc....there is provision under the law for you to be deported for a 1st offense...the key question is whether they would do it ?

So yes lots of BS being spoken on this subject...

[bkk_mike]

I'm British and I work remotely for a US company, that has an office in Thailand,

However when HR in Thailand were asked about employing me locally, they basically said they couldn't as on the org chart it would show that I have absolutely nothing to do with the Thai office, which meant they couldn't get me a work permit.

In the end the company employed me out of the Hong Kong office and I go to Hong Kong periodically (last trip was to renew my HK work visa), and work from home here the rest of the time.

I don't have a visa issue as my wife is Thai and with travelling to HK or other offices I'm in and out of the country so often that I have never applied for an extension of stay.

If it ever becomes a problem and ends up going to court, I will drag the Thai HR department in with me so that they can explain to the judge how the rules got into a state where a person married to a Thai can't get a work permit for the company he already works for even where the company has a fairly substantial Thai office. If nothing else the fact that I tried to be employed here should be a mitigating factor if it comes to being blacklisted. It also might highlight how outdated the rules are.

P.S. I'm a regular employee. I just work from home a lot. Setting up a fake company to "employ" me would probably be more likely to get me caught for setting up a fake company than just carrying on what I'm doing. I am intending on leaving Thailand in the next year or so anyway because I want the kids to be eligible for student loans, which means being back in the EU.

[shiroboi]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

[Jodokus]

I endorse the posting of Crobe. That answer is the right one. The rest is full of sh&@?!t.

If your company is NOT a Thai company or a foreign company that is established in Thailand, you CANNOT obtain a work permit. Period. If you have no work permit, you cannot work legally in Thailand. This automatically leads to the conclusion that your activities here will be viewed as working for a foreign company abroad while you are on a tourist visa here. Just like any other employee that comes here for a holiday and does some things for his company while here.

Indeed: Thai immigration or Labour Department ( they are the ones that issue work permits, not immigration!) has no interest in chasing these people. There is nothing to gain there than a bad name for Thailand.

If your company decides to sell items in or to Thailand, no problem. As long as your company has no establishment in Thailand and only sells from the US and ships from the US to Thailand, the coast is clear.

One thing to remember in dealing with Thai officials and persons in general: They are NOT stupid or ignorant, and expect you to respect their laws and culture. Do not mistake their friendly politeness for ignorance or stupidness or you will join the army of BS guys here with "bad" experience and advice, all due to their own dumb and ignorant behavior in Thailand. Leave US arrogance at home.

[Soutpeel]

If it ever becomes a problem and ends up going to court, I will drag the Thai HR department in with me so that they can explain to the judge how the rules got into a state where a person married to a Thai can't get a work permit for the company he already works for even where the company has a fairly substantial Thai office. If nothing else the fact that I tried to be employed here should be a mitigating factor if it comes to being blacklisted. It also might highlight how outdated the rules are.

P.S. I'm a regular employee. I just work from home a lot. Setting up a fake company to "employ" me would probably be more likely to get me caught for setting up a fake company than just carrying on what I'm doing. I am intending on leaving Thailand in the next year or so anyway because I want the kids to be eligible for student loans, which means being back in the EU.

If you end up in court, you will not be pulling any HR department into court, its nothing to do with them, the onus is on you to be sure you have a WP before you start work, as you have stated yourself you are not on the Thai companies Org chart, so all company will do is deny you even work for the company, and even if the court decided they Thai company was "liable" all they would be fined is THB 60,000 maximum, for you on the other hand the penalities could be a lot more servere.

The onus is on you to ensure you are working legally, yes a company has a degree of accountability, but the consequnces for you not having a WP are a lot more severe than the consequences for the company

[Soutpeel]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

[shiroboi]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

That may be so, but it will be "officially" answered when someone of the Thai Consulate OR a Thai lawyer weighs in on the subject. I've spent too much time at a law firm to trust the legal advice of dudes on a forum. Still the opinions are interesting.

Personally, I think I'll probably feel a bit uneasy staying in thailand without a work permit. I'll most likely get a 9-5 type job and get a work permit for that. I'll work on freelance work in my spare time like I do now. That is, until I feel confident enough to open up a Thai business in my or my wife's name.

[falang07]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The only problem is that if you ask lawyers, they will try to sell you the most profitable option for them, i.e. the Thai company way, and perhaps try to convince you the cheap, sole proprietorship way is not possible.

[shiroboi]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The only problem is that if you ask lawyers, they will try to sell you the most profitable option for them, i.e. the Thai company way, and perhaps try to convince you the cheap, sole proprietorship way is not possible.

We'll see. I think I get how everything works now but I'd love to hear from Sunbelt. I'm hoping that I get to the point where I can open my own business in Thailand. Not making money yet though so gotta keep at it.

[Jodokus]

There we go, another one bites the dust. Amazing......

[Soutpeel]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

That may be so, but it will be "officially" answered when someone of the Thai Consulate OR a Thai lawyer weighs in on the subject. I've spent too much time at a law firm to trust the legal advice of dudes on a forum. Still the opinions are interesting.

Personally, I think I'll probably feel a bit uneasy staying in thailand without a work permit. I'll most likely get a 9-5 type job and get a work permit for that. I'll work on freelance work in my spare time like I do now. That is, until I feel confident enough to open up a Thai business in my or my wife's name.

All a Thai consulate or lawyer is going to give is an opinion, the way the law is written its open to interpretation and the only interpretation which is correct is the interpretation of the official who is dealing with your case...as stated earlier, there was an article by Phuket Immigration/DOL ? and this stated in their opinion any one working on-line working in Thailand required a WP.

[falang07]

And I have read a completely opposite article from an immigration officer stating that online workers do not need a WP since they are not interested in them at all. Go figure.

[falang07]

-- here is the article

[falang07]

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

So, I was right.

[shiroboi]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

The official answer is going to be you need a WP....you intend to work in Thailand, you stated this yourself...

That may be so, but it will be "officially" answered when someone of the Thai Consulate OR a Thai lawyer weighs in on the subject. I've spent too much time at a law firm to trust the legal advice of dudes on a forum. Still the opinions are interesting.

Personally, I think I'll probably feel a bit uneasy staying in thailand without a work permit. I'll most likely get a 9-5 type job and get a work permit for that. I'll work on freelance work in my spare time like I do now. That is, until I feel confident enough to open up a Thai business in my or my wife's name.

All a Thai consulate or lawyer is going to give is an opinion, the way the law is written its open to interpretation and the only interpretation which is correct is the interpretation of the official who is dealing with your case...as stated earlier, there was an article by Phuket Immigration/DOL ? and this stated in their opinion any one working on-line working in Thailand required a WP.

Link to article?

[Soutpeel]

Link to article?

http://www.phuketgaz...ils.asp?id=1175

No ambiguity or misunderstanding from Immigation offical concerned or from the DOL official quoted

This topic has been discussed many times at length on TV, and I will change my opinion on what is legal the day someone publishes a letter from the Thai DOL or Thai immigration stating that "person XYZ" passport number XXXXXXXis offiically permitted to work on-line without a WP ", until that time..."what a senior official at immigration told me" or "what a Thai embassy or consulate told me" is completely irrelevant..

Edited July 17, 2012 by Soutpeel