Death Of A Scottish Neighbour

[Nicostratos]

Hello, this is my first post on the forum, but I have been happily reading it for quite a long time. Please excuse my poor English, this is not my mother tongue (French).

A poor guy just deceased yesterday in my Isaan village (100Km west of Khorat), probably from a heart attack, sitting on his chair, age 62 I think, and everything has been done according to the procedures, contact with the village boss, local police, with the UK embassy etc. The poor chap had been in Thailand for 7 months only, living with a Thai woman he met in Scotland and who seemed to sincerely love him. They were not yet married. He was farming with his Thai frend. The guy was really not rich and had no remaining close relatives in the UK. So, no heritage, no pension rights, no conflict etc. The body has been sent to Khorat for post mortem examination (routine I think).

But ...

Since he had no money at all, even no pension, the Thai woman sold some property to give him the 800K baths needed in his bank account, on his name only, to obtain the retirement visa. Now I think you start to understand the problem ... How to recover the money ?

The woman can show that the money comes from her account, and the bank clerk is a witness. I think it is easy to prove the guy had almost nothing ...

Does anybody have any idea or has already met such a situation ?

Thank you.

[Pseudolus]

I do not think she has a chance as they were not married. If she tried to access the money before a will has been read (if there is one) she will be breaking Thai law. I would guess she would have to prove to the individuals who claim his estate that she leant him the money and trust them to give it back. Can you the woman prove that the cash in her account did not come from him initially? I would say, basically, no chance.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Pseudolus

[Nicostratos]

Thank you. This looks quite difficult for her. But I think the guy never had any money coming on his account, except from her. OMG, this story makes be sick.

[jacktrip]

that's worth contacting a lawyer about. they will need to persuade the estate trustee that see was like kin and their finances were combined, not something you can do on your own.

[Semper]

Can you the woman prove that the cash in her account did not come from him initially?

According to the op, yes: "Since he had no money at all, even no pension, the Thai woman sold some property to give him the 800K baths needed in his bank account"

[Nicostratos]

Yes, I have adviced her to hire a lawyer. Can you believe the UK embassy asked her to pay 3500 Baths just to deliver a letter to the Khorat hospital so that she recovers the body for cremation ?

[Litlos]

Similar one a couple of years ago in Pattaya. Basically the wife (or TGF) went to the bank and explained the circumstance with some evidence. The bank very quietly closed the account and gave her the funds, possibly minus a "handling" fee. The more people who get involved the larger the "handling" fee so good idea to try and keep it simple.

Thailand is no where near as strict in law as the west and this is a good opportunity to utilise the difference. Better to be quick about it though.

If he had no will in Thailand the funds will be consumed by lawyers and government charges. Hence I have a will in Thailand as the only person I wish to purchase a BMW with my funds is me, not a lawyer after my demise.

Cheers

[naboo]

Can you believe the UK embassy asked her to pay 3500 Baths just to deliver a letter to the Khorat hospital so that she recovers the body for cremation ?

Yes, that's not too bad for a British government agency fee. The b*****ds.

[Beetlejuice]

A few factors here:

Firstly this matter has nothing to do with the FCO as the money was paid into a Thai bank account from monies acquired in Thailand, so I very much doubt they would be interested.

The guy was working on a farm. I doubt whether he would have had a work permit or that he was legally working in Thailand and as the wise man says; I’d keep schtum about that one, especially as regards to the bank, absolutely no reason to mention it.

I have no idea how the couple met in Scotland or the circumstances, or even how long this gentleman and the lady were together? But it all proves that this couple were a genuine item.

What I would do is make an appointment with the bank manager. Explain the whole situation with as much documentary evidence to back it up as possible. She should say that they were together as a couple and the money was paid into the man’s account on an oral agreement that it was a loan and to be paid back, say for example, 2 years after it was paid in.

If this lady sticks by the facts without giving any misinformation, details everything to the bank manager, than her case may be convincing enough that the bank will approve the transferring of the said funds into her account. This is about the only option and the outcome is really down to the discretion of the bank.

Personally, if the lady is smart, sincere, honest and being truthful, than I see no reason why the bank should not show compassion in this case.

My sincere condolences to everyone concerned and hope that a satisfactory result is gained from the bank.

Only 62 and 7 months in Thailand, very tragic and sad indeed.

[Soutpeel]

on face value, if the guy has worked/lived in the UK most of his life I would hazard a guess and say he is drawing a state pension, granted it may not be enough to get the retirement visa for Thailand, hence the 800k loan, but bet he was receiving a pension.

At 62, and living the UK what was he living on there all those years if he wasnt getting at least a state pension ?

As regards the 800k in his bank account, the first thing that must be understood is that legally its not her money, its now part of his "estate"..even though she can prove she loaned him the money and a bank handing over the cash from a deceased account even on compassionate grounds is actually illegal (yes I know we are in Thailand)

Does she have claim to recover the cash against his "estate"...yes but she needs to follow the proper channels/process to recover her money as she is not even his legal spouse

Edited August 28, 2012 by Soutpeel

[Pseudolus]

on face value, if the guy has worked/lived in the UK most of his life I would hazard a guess and say he is drawing a state pension, granted it may not be enough to get the retirement visa for Thailand, hence the 800k loan, but bet he was receiving a pension.

At 62, and living the UK what was he living on there all those years if he wasnt getting at least a state pension ?

As regards the 800k in his bank account, the first thing that must be understood is that legally its not her money, its now part of his "estate"..even though she can prove she loaned him the money and a bank handing over the cash from a deceased account even on compassionate grounds is actually illegal (yes I know we are in Thailand)

Does she have claim to recover the cash against his "estate"...yes but she needs to follow the proper channels/process to recover her money as she is not even his legal spouse

Absolutely agree. Great advice being given to some new member without any idea who it is, their involvement, is it actually the women themselves. The advice requested was how to get money out of the dead guys bank account more or less. I have no doubt at all that a Thai person knows the rules or can find them out from the Bank Manager themselves. Why does a Farang need to ask them on a forum?

I fail to see how this all works out in reality same as you SP. 62, state pension due soon I guess, but if he had nothing (literally) to support himself, no income, no property, no savings, how on earth did he end up working on a farm in the middle of the sticks for 7 months. Was he trying out self sufficiency? Plausible I guess.

My concern with this thread is that the facts that are guessable (nothing known of course) is that a guy from Scotland moved to Issan 7 months ago, died (we so not know how), and there is someone trying to get cash from his estate who for all we know has only known him 7 months and then the guy died. In Issan. Aged 62. Maybe he worked too hard on the farm?

Lots of good advice which you should all offer to a friend in need, or a relative in a similar circumstances. Not sure if should be proffered to a newbie where the story sounds at least a little fishy once you take the rose tinted glasses off.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Pseudolus

[simple1]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

[marshbags]

Isn,t the qualifying age for a state pension in the U.K. still 65 ?

Even if you retire early unless rules have changed, you still have to wait till your 65.

The number of people I know who have passed on is very sad especially as they have also worked over the qualifying years needed to get the state OAP and will never get a return from their contributions.

Soon the age is going to steadily increase for those who are a little younger so it will also mean others will also unjustly loose out.

Sure many are expected to live longer but it is no consulation to those who are retiring early, will not.

Just an observation and certainly not a critical one re the exellent advise that,s been posted.

marshbags

May you RIP fellow expat.

[meatboy]

surely this man has an ex-wife in the uk,as he is not married living in thailand without a penny his gf has no chance of anything this man has in the pot in the uk.state pension age for him would be 65,being a scotsman he has a few bob somewhere, where she cant get her hands on,this story is very hard to believe,only been living in thailand 7months,same same as the girl in the bar my first night.i exspect his passport could give a clue or two.

[Soutpeel]

Isn,t the qualifying age for a state pension in the U.K. still 65 ?

Even if you retire early unless rules have changed, you still have to wait till your 65.

The number of people I know who have passed on is very sad especially as they have also worked over the qualifying years needed to get the state OAP and will never get a return from their contributions.

Soon the age is going to steadily increase for those who are a little younger so it will also mean others will also unjustly loose out.

Sure many are expected to live longer but it is no consulation to those who are retiring early, will not.

Just an observation and certainly not a critical one re the exellent advise that,s been posted.

marshbags

May you RIP fellow expat.

You are correct its 65, for some reason I had 60 in my head, with that aside, if they guy had no assets how did he live in the UK all those years then ? if he didnt have a pot to p*ss in as has been suggested, where did he get the 700 quid minimum to buy an air ticket, if so destitiute in the UK..700 quid may as well be 7000 quid

[Beetlejuice]

on face value, if the guy has worked/lived in the UK most of his life I would hazard a guess and say he is drawing a state pension, granted it may not be enough to get the retirement visa for Thailand, hence the 800k loan, but bet he was receiving a pension.

At 62, and living the UK what was he living on there all those years if he wasnt getting at least a state pension ?

As regards the 800k in his bank account, the first thing that must be understood is that legally its not her money, its now part of his "estate"..even though she can prove she loaned him the money and a bank handing over the cash from a deceased account even on compassionate grounds is actually illegal (yes I know we are in Thailand)

Does she have claim to recover the cash against his "estate"...yes but she needs to follow the proper channels/process to recover her money as she is not even his legal spouse

Absolutely agree. Great advice being given to some new member without any idea who it is, their involvement, is it actually the women themselves. The advice requested was how to get money out of the dead guys bank account more or less. I have no doubt at all that a Thai person knows the rules or can find them out from the Bank Manager themselves. Why does a Farang need to ask them on a forum?

I fail to see how this all works out in reality same as you SP. 62, state pension due soon I guess, but if he had nothing (literally) to support himself, no income, no property, no savings, how on earth did he end up working on a farm in the middle of the sticks for 7 months. Was he trying out self sufficiency? Plausible I guess.

My concern with this thread is that the facts that are guessable (nothing known of course) is that a guy from Scotland moved to Issan 7 months ago, died (we so not know how), and there is someone trying to get cash from his estate who for all we know has only known him 7 months and then the guy died. In Issan. Aged 62. Maybe he worked too hard on the farm?

Lots of good advice which you should all offer to a friend in need, or a relative in a similar circumstances. Not sure if should be proffered to a newbie where the story sounds at least a little fishy once you take the rose tinted glasses off.

You are putting words into this that are simply not there.

Firstly the guy was 62 years old and would not have been eligible to claim a UK State pension and how much pension he would have received if he had reached 65 depends on how many years he paid into the system.

The OP has already mentioned that he believes death was caused by a heart attack.

How the guy earned his living prior to moving to Thailand is irrelevant to this case and so is the reasons why someone is making inquiries on the woman’s behalf.

Lots of destitute farangs of all ages are plonking themselves in Thailand these days, hoping to try their luck; too many in fact, there is nothing sinister or strange about that. I have met several over the last few years.

First the lady has to make inquiries with the bank and if she does not receive any satisfactory results, then the next step is to take the matter to the civil court.

It`s all appears straight forward and now a matter of procedure and taking things one-step at a time, although I’m not saying it`s going to be easy and there are no guarantees that events will go in the woman’s favour.

[maidu]

Thai banks, like other Thai establishments, are quite subjective in how they operate. They also want to gain as much as they can, after the smoke clears.

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

I'd be interested to see approx how much money Thai banks get each year, when ex-pats pass aways. I seriously doubt a bank would look to contact a next-of-kin beneficiary (certainly not overseas), and if a beneficiary did show up, the bank would drag down the process with paperwork and document requirements and delays.

As for the woman mentioned in the OP, she should get a Thai lawyer who won't take too much advantage of fees, commissions, etc. (tough one).

[evadgib]

Can you believe the UK embassy asked her to pay 3500 Baths just to deliver a letter to the Khorat hospital so that she recovers the body for cremation ?

Can you believe all other Embassies (inc yours) do this too?

Get back under Le Bridge:)

[marshbags]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

I offer the following advice re the documentation.

Periodically check with your bank / s what if any new requirements are needed, please don,t think everything is still o.k. and current re the banks policy on this important matter.

When changing branches check to make sure the requirements there compliment your previous arrangements and they are on their computer records..

Get a legally accepted will made by a respected lawyer, ours was signed by him and ourselves then witnessed by his staff.

He was able to do both Thai and English versions for us, the cost was 3,000 baht which I was more than satisfied with.

I have found the Kasikorn bank in particular very inconsistant, even after giving my wife and myself assurances she was covered, they have continually changed things.

We have on two seperate occasions completed detailed information for the banks records ( national via branch ), had photo copies of her ID card and my Passport counter signed, answered various questions relating to security issues, signed it all and finaly had it put on file / computerise.

Two different forms by the way with the first considered no good.

( I,m not sure what sort of forms they were but obviously not standard, so best to let them provide you with whatever documentation they wish you to completeat the time.) IMHO

Both mysteriously disappeared when searches were made on my request to check if they were still current and acceptable.

I also told them we had wills made out in both Thai and English via a Thai lawyer to fullfill their requirements and they said they were o.k.

I still have the wills in my possession and intend to have them rechecked at my new branch and make sure all requirements are covered..........again.

She will also need the death certificate as and when of course.

I was led to believe if it,s natural causes and not suspicious the doctor registering the cause of death will suffice...but again please this out.

marshbags

Never take for granted that Thai banking arrangements continue to be accurate, acceptable as assurances generally in my experience aren,t worth FA in the long term.

Edited August 28, 2012 by marshbags

[Beetlejuice]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

I would have said the answer is: open the accounts in joint names with your wives.

All my bank accounts abroad and in Thailand are in joint names with my wife and I. Our home is in the names of our children, and other valubles are kept in a strong box at the bank.

My wife is covered by insurance policies attached to my pension after I`m gone and all the family will have no worries as I have prepared everything. So in fact I have no need to make a will.

Perhaps some people do not trust their wives and families enough to allow them access to they`re bank accounts?

Edited August 28, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[Nicostratos]

Thanks to everybody for the good info.

The guy lived in Scotland for a number of years with his Thai girlfriend. I don't know how they met. The woman looks educated, quite good English, pretty, around 45. The guy looked kind and somewhat shy. He had a job in construction. At first, when I heard he died and that the body had been taken for a post mortem, my first reaction was to suspect somebody helped the poor guy to exit this cruel world to get his money. But not at all, they were not even married and the woman was the one with some money ... How suspicious us farangs have become ...

I have adviced her to go to the bank and try to negociate, as a contributor proposed.

And if no success, to take a lawyer.

If I have some news I will let the forum know for information.

Best regards

[Beetlejuice]

Thanks to everybody for the good info.

The guy lived in Scotland for a number of years with his Thai girlfriend. I don't know how they met. The woman looks educated, quite good English, pretty, around 45. The guy looked kind and somewhat shy. He had a job in construction. At first, when I heard he died and that the body had been taken for a post mortem, my first reaction was to suspect somebody helped the poor guy to exit this cruel world to get his money. But not at all, they were not even married and the woman was the one with some money ... How suspicious us farangs have become ...

I have adviced her to go to the bank and try to negociate, as a contributor proposed.

And if no success, to take a lawyer.

If I have some news I will let the forum know for information.

Best regards

Thank you good Sir for the update and I think you are a very supportive and kind guy yourself for helping this lady through what must be an extremely sad and difficult time for her.

Yes, please keep us updated and wishing the man`s widow all success with her claim.

BJ

[transam]

Thanks to everybody for the good info.

The guy lived in Scotland for a number of years with his Thai girlfriend. I don't know how they met. The woman looks educated, quite good English, pretty, around 45. The guy looked kind and somewhat shy. He had a job in construction. At first, when I heard he died and that the body had been taken for a post mortem, my first reaction was to suspect somebody helped the poor guy to exit this cruel world to get his money. But not at all, they were not even married and the woman was the one with some money ... How suspicious us farangs have become ...

I have adviced her to go to the bank and try to negociate, as a contributor proposed.

And if no success, to take a lawyer.

If I have some news I will let the forum know for information.

Best regards

I am near two years into helping a Thai lady regarding her deceased husbands cash, crazy stuff, but think l am getting near somewhere, l hope. Very difficult without a Will.

[besth]

This is not going to be a big help for the OP's friend, but just a thought that might help others. I gave ATM cards to my sister, so that if anything ever happens to me it is accessible. In a case like this it probably would have helped too.

[autan]

Yes, I have adviced her to hire a lawyer. Can you believe the UK embassy asked her to pay 3500 Baths just to deliver a letter to the Khorat hospital so that she recovers the body for cremation ?

Yes I can believe it. In fact one would say it would be expected.

[watcharacters]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

I offer the following advice re the documentation.

Periodically check with your bank / s what if any new requirements are needed, please don,t think everything is still o.k. and current re the banks policy on this important matter.

When changing branches check to make sure the requirements there compliment your previous arrangements and they are on their computer records..

Get a legally accepted will made by a respected lawyer, ours was signed by him and ourselves then witnessed by his staff.

He was able to do both Thai and English versions for us, the cost was 3,000 baht which I was more than satisfied with.

I have found the Kasikorn bank in particular very inconsistant, even after giving my wife and myself assurances she was covered, they have continually changed things.

We have on two seperate occasions completed detailed information for the banks records ( national via branch ), had photo copies of her ID card and my Passport counter signed, answered various questions relating to security issues, signed it all and finaly had it put on file / computerise.

Two different forms by the way with the first considered no good.

( I,m not sure what sort of forms they were but obviously not standard, so best to let them provide you with whatever documentation they wish you to completeat the time.) IMHO

Both mysteriously disappeared when searches were made on my request to check if they were still current and acceptable.

I also told them we had wills made out in both Thai and English via a Thai lawyer to fullfill their requirements and they said they were o.k.

I still have the wills in my possession and intend to have them rechecked at my new branch and make sure all requirements are covered..........again.

She will also need the death certificate as and when of course.

I was led to believe if it,s natural causes and not suspicious the doctor registering the cause of death will suffice...but again please this out.

marshbags

Never take for granted that Thai banking arrangements continue to be accurate, acceptable as assurances generally in my experience aren,t worth FA in the long term.

I read your post with sadness. I honestly doubt one can ever be certain a beneficiary will ever actually receive funds from a Thai bank. Their right to relocate the goal post makes that pretty much impossible.

[rattler]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

Pleased to hear that as long as any backhanders were also declined

[rattler]

With regards to banking we made sure all accounts are joint and can be accessed by either of us although of course if you don't trust your wife.............well frankly, I suppose you shouldn't have married her.

[KNJ]

I asked my Thai bank (Kasikorn) if my Thai wife would be able to access the cash in my account when I die. The answer was only if she could present a Thai Will and Thai documentation for evidence of death. They said due to the level of fraud they had tightened up the process for accessing funds.

I would have said the answer is: open the accounts in joint names with your wives.

All my bank accounts abroad and in Thailand are in joint names with my wife and I. Our home is in the names of our children, and other valubles are kept in a strong box at the bank.

My wife is covered by insurance policies attached to my pension after I`m gone and all the family will have no worries as I have prepared everything. So in fact I have no need to make a will.

Perhaps some people do not trust their wives and families enough to allow them access to they`re bank accounts?

Please be carefull and check this, sometimes when paying a beneficiary overseas solicitors need to become involved, taxes can be unexpected and can be quite lengthy.

I would check with insurance company that they know how and can explain procedure to collect death benefit when appropriate.

If it is also linked to terminal illness payment check that as well and that you have someone who can sign on your behalf and she knows who that is and how to contact them........just saying, belt and long peice of string as they say

[KarenBravo]

Personally, if the lady is smart, sincere, honest and being truthful, than I see no reason why the bank should not show compassion in this case.

Nothing to do with your "personal feelings", rules and regulations have to be followed. Banks are not known for their "compassion".