ITGabs Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 From the Thai side, My GF and me we have 12 Rai 6 of rice and 6 of sugar cane in Nakhon Sawan, for me was a kind of adventure I incentivate her for go and get the part of the land that the father offer to she, I was filming the process and many of the things that are interesting for me, asking many things, etc. I give all the money to do everything for the land to get a good crop, but nothing for rent or buy, one interesting thing is about is that if you get a good crop the prices per month that you can get discounting all the cost/hand work/seeds/water/pesticides/fertilizer etc is around 800-1200 bath per Rai/month so for me not look as a good business, still if something that can give you some money for few work, but renting or buy a land looks crazy for me. Of course this is a beginner price, the truck/machine process for the sugar cane is expensive at the beginning (preparing/flat the land and put the sugar cane inside the land around 1 or 2 meters), but you don't need it again in the next 4 years (maybe) some times you don't need water extraction since the irrigation could be good (or the rain), and if you have many Rai the hand work could be cheaper, if my memory work good the harvesting/hand work was about 180 bath per day, so the price could be more per month... But you all the time can lose a lot, flooding, plagues, fire, or drought can easily kill your crops... Another interesting thing for me is about the red and green landlord papper, usually the king or the goverment give land to the poor families in remote areas (not only thais, Myanmar/Chinnese people too), I meet many of them, not only for make crops, they can build a resort if they want, but the goverment check if they really working the land in some way, if they have a red papper they can not selling the land and they can lose it if they don't work on it, after 20 years (i am not sure) the get the green papper and they can do wherever with the land. sorry if my information is not accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 You surprise me on the London prices, had a freind many years ago who had, I think about 50 acre dairy farm in Devon and he seemed to make a good living. Dairy farming in the UK is a totally different game, as you need a permit to produce milk, and they don't make any new ones. So you have to buy your permit from an existing Dairy farmer getting out of the business. UK Dairy farming is not about owning a farm or owning cows, it's about owning a permit. Then just like OZ, over Governed and over regulated. What happened to free enterprise. Jim "1984" All we need is business to be starting the wars. and Orwell will have got it right except for the date. Orwell got the date wrong only. Last time I was in OZ, speaking with a friend about the world financial crisis, greece etc. He said at least in Australia we have unemployment benifits and free medical, no one else in the world gets that. He really believed what the media said and though I told him that many countries had welfare systems he would not believe me, only the lucky country could afford it. Sheepeople. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieruss Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Where's Dave now your turn:D Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somo Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 "how the heck can rice land prices in the hundred's of thousands be justified?" The answer to the OPs question is very simple and has nothing to do with rice, rice prices, or farming practices. The property markets of the US and many other western countries have recently crashed. Some areas such as Florida more than 60 percent. The root cause was access to easy credit. With the assistance or Thaksin, and now his sibling, easy credit is now readily available in Thailand. Anyone one that wants to claim this isn't the case must first explain to me why there are so many new pickup trucks in every village. The current ludicrous prices for Thai property are nothing more than a Ponzi scheme that is founded on easy credit. Thailand is set for a show stopping property crash. AND it is going to be a doozy... From what I have seen, the banks are not in a hurry to foreclose on loans secured on land. This possibly helps to inflate the property bubble, but I don't pretend to be an y sort of expert in economics. I have known of people who stopped paying their loans off being contacted by the bank 7 years later and then suggesting a way for them to start paying off the loan. A loan plus interest on the banks books is an asset, whereas if they siezed and sold the property at less than the amound outstanding, it becomes a liability. I also know of land that was seized by the bank 20 years ago and still owned by the bank. The bank rents it out. That parcel of land the bank would make a profit on if the sold it now. I would think that if the banks foreclosed and sold all the land that bad debts are secured on at auction. the bubble would definitely burst. That's the thing. It is no ones interest to prick the bubble so everyone carries on as if all is fine and that can go on for years. It needs an event of some sort, maybe a bank crashing or something, to trigger the burst of the bubble but without that the dream can go on for years. Even once it happens the banks try to hide their true exposure because they are afraid of the consequences. Most UK banks have yet to come clean about their bad loans and as a consequence no banks trust each other anymore which stops the flow of money and loans that are needed to get businesses working again. This is what is now happening in China - the start of a credit crunch and it will spread here but how long it takes is anyones guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loong Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 It's a double edged sword Somo. Although I don't really want to see the devastating effect of the bubble bursting as it always seems to drag every other aspect of the financial world down with it. Many people (me included) saw their investments/pensions lose a lot of value even when nothing to do with subprime mortgages or banking. The problem is that the perceived value of land will not allow successfull farmers to expand if they need to borrow money to buy new land. If one cannot earn enough from the land to cover interest costs because of the high purchase price, it's a none starter. Somebody from a farming community that wishes to continue farming is unable to set up his own operation because the costs of buying land are prohibitive. Hopefully we will eventually see land prices return to a more sustainable level without going into freefall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khonwan Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hi ITGabs. The paper you refer to is Sor Por Kor. It’s only available for Thais though – I expect that the Burmese and Chinese you say also hold this title are actually either Thais with Burmese/Chinese blood or they are married to Thais (who actually hold the title). One other correction: the restrictions on these titles (or land) are not relaxed after 20 years automatically: the government may at any time (before or after 20 years, or never) upgrade to Nor Sor 3 or chanote. Yes, a small resort is usually allowed as long as it is just one of the uses of the land to generate income but, as you say, a proportion (a significant proportion, I would think) will need to be put to agricultural use also. Ah, one more thing: the land can be sold but only to close (not extended) family, i.e. parents, children, siblings. Jim, cassava has no international commodity price, probably because the vast majority of international exports of cassava are from one country: Thailand. Not sure how accurate the figure is but I recently read a Nigerian report (Nigeria is probably the biggest producer of cassava) stating that Thai cassava exports represents 80% of total international cassava exports. Since 25% of cassava is used for ethanol, it’s price can be influenced by the cost of oil (which is, of course, a traded commodity) in that high oil prices make ethanol blends economical, leading to greater demand for cassava. Rgds Khonwan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieruss Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hi Brazil big for cassava Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Hi ITGabs. The paper you refer to is Sor Por Kor. It’s only available for Thais though – I expect that the Burmese and Chinese you say also hold this title are actually either Thais with Burmese/Chinese blood or they are married to Thais (who actually hold the title). One other correction: the restrictions on these titles (or land) are not relaxed after 20 years automatically: the government may at any time (before or after 20 years, or never) upgrade to Nor Sor 3 or chanote. Yes, a small resort is usually allowed as long as it is just one of the uses of the land to generate income but, as you say, a proportion (a significant proportion, I would think) will need to be put to agricultural use also. Ah, one more thing: the land can be sold but only to close (not extended) family, i.e. parents, children, siblings. Jim, cassava has no international commodity price, probably because the vast majority of international exports of cassava are from one country: Thailand. Not sure how accurate the figure is but I recently read a Nigerian report (Nigeria is probably the biggest producer of cassava) stating that Thai cassava exports represents 80% of total international cassava exports. Since 25% of cassava is used for ethanol, it’s price can be influenced by the cost of oil (which is, of course, a traded commodity) in that high oil prices make ethanol blends economical, leading to greater demand for cassava. Rgds Khonwan Didn't know cassava was not traded in the futures market like rubber, never bothered to have a Google. Just did a search and you a right, though ethanol looks like it will be traded on the BKK market later this year. Don't know if it will make any difference to pricing though. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khonwan Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Russell, Brazil is a huge producer (bigger than Thailand, I believe), but not such a big exporter of cassava. Rgds Khonwan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somo Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 In Thailand nearly all the cassava is not of the edible variety but is used for it's starch content ettc as a supplement to many foods and things like talcum powder and animal foodstuff. In Africa cassava forms a major part of the diets in many countries so is of a different variety. Of Brazilian cassava I don't know. The higher the price of oil the more likely that it could be used more for producing ethanol. Having said that corn is also used for producing ethanol especially in the USA where I think 40% of the crop goes to. With the droughts they have had it seems kind of crazy that corn is now in short supply for feeding cattle leading to prices rising throughout the food chain because they want the ethanol for their cars. It sure is a strange world we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 In Thailand nearly all the cassava is not of the edible variety but is used for it's starch content ettc as a supplement to many foods and things like talcum powder and animal foodstuff. In Africa cassava forms a major part of the diets in many countries so is of a different variety. Of Brazilian cassava I don't know. The higher the price of oil the more likely that it could be used more for producing ethanol. Having said that corn is also used for producing ethanol especially in the USA where I think 40% of the crop goes to. With the droughts they have had it seems kind of crazy that corn is now in short supply for feeding cattle leading to prices rising throughout the food chain because they want the ethanol for their cars. It sure is a strange world we live in. In truth it is a sad world we live in and always has been and no doubt always will . The poor can starve, but their countries will sell their food for fuel and guns. Heard leaders all over the world talk about the good of the people, but in truth it's about the good of the few. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somo Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 In Thailand nearly all the cassava is not of the edible variety but is used for it's starch content ettc as a supplement to many foods and things like talcum powder and animal foodstuff. In Africa cassava forms a major part of the diets in many countries so is of a different variety. Of Brazilian cassava I don't know. The higher the price of oil the more likely that it could be used more for producing ethanol. Having said that corn is also used for producing ethanol especially in the USA where I think 40% of the crop goes to. With the droughts they have had it seems kind of crazy that corn is now in short supply for feeding cattle leading to prices rising throughout the food chain because they want the ethanol for their cars. It sure is a strange world we live in. In truth it is a sad world we live in and always has been and no doubt always will . The poor can starve, but their countries will sell their food for fuel and guns. Heard leaders all over the world talk about the good of the people, but in truth it's about the good of the few. Jim Jim At the end of the day we are just animals and when push comes to shove it is each man for himself. I have been in extreme situations in my life which taught me just how true this is. We like to think of ourselves as civilized but it is a thin veneer that disapears when things get tough. Having said that I have also found that creating a good and loving enviroment around oneself is the way to go if you seek happiness. We are at a sometimes contradictory stage of our evolution and that plays with our heads. If we manage to survive for another 10,000 years we may understand it better but I doubt it. It is also amazing what a few jars will make you write :) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phronesis Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 That's the thing. It is no ones interest to prick the bubble so everyone carries on as if all is fine and that can go on for years. It needs an event of some sort, maybe a bank crashing or something, to trigger the burst of the bubble but without that the dream can go on for years. What about when the unmentionable occurs... I would argue that the prick is on the immediate horizon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1971 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 OP, 100,000 Baht to 1,000,000 Baht a Rai for agricultural land in Chiang Rai seems very expensive. 1 Rai of roadside development land for a luxury villa, directly opposite Santiburi Golf Course only costs 1,000,000 Baht. Last year my wife bought 200 Rai of agricultural land in Chiang Rai province, near Chiang Saen. The land is next to her village & is accessible by pick up truck via a dirt road. The land is suitable for Rubber trees as it is on a gradual slope, many other people in this area have already moved over to Rubber trees. The price was 9,000 Baht / Rai. The land can only be used for agriculture, so does not have Chanote. However at 1.8M Baht for 200 Rai I told her to crack on. 200 Rai at 100,000 to 1M Baht per Rai, would be 20M Baht to 200M Baht, which are huge sums of capital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breadbin Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 why, as a farang are you getting invlvolved other than I am sure with financing it. Let your Thai family deal with Thai matters that you obviously know nothin about. The land is being sold retail, if you dont buy it, it may sit there for years, the price will go up each year, TIT. Just keep yourself amused with things you know about, leave Thai business to Thai people Also, dont spend all that money on inflated rice fields, whereas, if you are not invlived I am sure the price is considerably lower. Did that now cross you r mind? and before you come back to say you are jusy helping out, dont, people obviously know a farang is married to a Thai and theu they see you as an easy way to get baht. dont be one of the loser stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Where's Dave now your turn:D Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App To aussieruss, what I wrote was ... Can someone run this through a translater and I can't understand it in it's present form? The poster has connection to the rice community in Issan ... so a worthy comment to make. Rephrasing ... I don't understand what you wrote. Obviously you have a connection to the rice community in Issan ... thus a worthy comment to make. Could someone please translate it for me? Not having a go at you, not for one second. If you want to know my character, read my Fish Farm thread ... bagging blokes in the Farm Forum is not my style. So, it's my shout then ... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaanAussie Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I am as jealous as heck of both Russ and Dave. Imagine having able bodied family members that put in a decent days work without expecting to get executive wages for it. People that plan for the future and work towards it, my mind boggles. You lucky buggers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussieruss Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Hi Dave all is good:lol: When I wrote where is Dave there was a post that I couldn't understand but it has vanished off the topic?I to am not into bagging people and i look forward to that drink or 3 rgd Russell Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiinasia Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Someone has to grow the rice that I don't eat! Its the potato farmers I worry about. Grow potatoes and become rich! Then you can pay 1m for a rai or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hare Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Someone has to grow the rice that I don't eat! Its the potato farmers I worry about. Grow potatoes and become rich! Then you can pay 1m for a rai or two. Potatoes don't grow on waterlogged and seasonally flooded land where lowland rice thrives. Neither does cassava, sugar cane and maize, the other big cash crops in Thailand. Like potatoes, they need upland soils that drain freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALFREDO Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 -Rotweiler- The prices you mentioned are crazy high. I stay in Isaan and not in Chiang Rai, here you have 25.000 to 50.000 a Rai for land, sugarcane and for rice farms. More expensive near the village, land for buildings, house plots and with near connection to power, roads, water. Sounds for me same a rip off is staged on you. Take care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotweiler Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) ALFREDO is of course right - to pay that sum of money for a rai of rice land that leases for a maximum of 2,000B/year is economically brankcrupting. The other responders to this thread who commented on the policies of the government(s) and the banks to permit long-term, low interest loans for the purchase of land are, of course also very correct. The reality is that the supposed "populist" policies of recent Thai governments have worked very strongly againsty the common Thai. The economics being what they are, it is almost impossible for a farmer in north-central and northern Thailand to expand his holdings by acquiring more land, or to buy new lands for his children. In this area, the VAST majority of land now belongs to wealthy families from other areas of Thailand. The big crash of '97 to be repeated? Why not - many indicators are now similar. Reminds me to visit the 20 or 30 resorts around here (new in 1996-97) that still lie abandoned..... amazing how much land the banks now own - and how much more they WILL own when the next one happens. IMHO Again, thanks to all who responded. Edited September 11, 2012 by Rotweiler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cashboy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) The land price debate will never end, so there will never be a cut and dry answer. Now if you take away personal views etc, in this global economy, given similar infrastructure and similar futility, should land not be similarr in price any where in the world. To say that Thailand is a poor country and land prices should be less, is like saying gold should be cheaper here than in the west. After all a carrot is a carrot and is really of the same value anywhere [minus taxes etc] So how much is good land worth where you come from. Just a thought. Jim Greenbelt farmland (around London) sells for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of farm land here. I have an Australian pal trying to sell his farm in Oz, good land, good water supply, not far from a big city. Asking price for 200 acres (500rai) is 400,000 AU$, includes a house ...... no takers in 4 years (that's under 30kbht per rai). I was in an Estate Agent for farm land in the UK only last month to find out the price of an acre of green belt agricultural land. I was researching and comparing the price of farmland in Bulgaria, UK (Green Belt Herts,Beds, Bucks, Essex) and Thailand (Udonthani Province) to try and justify the prices that I hear that a rai of rice farm sells for in Udonthani Province. 1 Acre agricultural land in UK Green Belt is £6500 => £6500 x 50 bt per GB Pound x 0.4 (acre to rai) => 130,000 bt per rai. By the way; agricultural land does not mean you can keep horses on the land as a horse is not considered a farm animal. Edited September 12, 2012 by Cashboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somo Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The land price debate will never end, so there will never be a cut and dry answer. Now if you take away personal views etc, in this global economy, given similar infrastructure and similar futility, should land not be similarr in price any where in the world. To say that Thailand is a poor country and land prices should be less, is like saying gold should be cheaper here than in the west. After all a carrot is a carrot and is really of the same value anywhere [minus taxes etc] So how much is good land worth where you come from. Just a thought. Jim Greenbelt farmland (around London) sells for about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of farm land here. I have an Australian pal trying to sell his farm in Oz, good land, good water supply, not far from a big city. Asking price for 200 acres (500rai) is 400,000 AU$, includes a house ...... no takers in 4 years (that's under 30kbht per rai). I was in an Estate Agent for farm land in the UK only last month to find out the price of an acre of green belt agricultural land. I was researching and comparing the price of farmland in Bulgaria, UK (Green Belt Herts,Beds, Bucks, Essex) and Thailand (Udonthani Province) to try and justify the prices that I hear that a rai of rice farm sells for in Udonthani Province. 1 Acre agricultural land in UK Green Belt is £6500 => £6500 x 50 bt per GB Pound x 0.4 (acre to rai) => 130,000 bt per rai. By the way; agricultural land does not mean you can keep horses on the land as a horse is not considered a farm animal. Interesting. Just shows best not believe everything written here without checking for yourself. 130k seems expensive but with UK food prices it may not take so long to get your money back as it does here. Anyone know how much spuds cost now over there? I know from my sister that fresh farm eggs sell for about 25-30p each ie about 5 times the price of here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 somo, if farmers got paid as a percentage of what things sell for in shops they would be rich. Know a potato farmer in Tasmania. He sells to Mac Donald's and they tell him what they will pay. He takes the contract or he can not sell his potatoes. Big difference to selling small amounts in a local market and supplying 1000s of tons to a big buyer. Economy of scale, small farms can not compete, look at wheat and rice, 1000s of hectares, big harvesting machines, millions of dollars in investment. In the end even in Thailand the big boys will take over and the locals will work in factories. It's been a few years since I saw a water buffalo pulling a plow. A tractor is better and cheaper and a big tractor is better. If you have 10 or 20 rai, you can not afford a $100,000 tractor, but you can not compete in price. that's life. One day I or my kids will get a offer to good to refuse and we will be off the land. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsaanAussie Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) That I find hard to believe Jim, you off the land? Never... Take away the beer and the hammock and what are you going to do? Around here many people have "sold" their land by borrowing against it. They hand over the chanote and receive the agreed amount for the land however the title is not changed. The new holder has the use of the land until the real owner repays the amount. Often this means a new player will offer more for the land than the current guy paid. Again money changes hands and the current guy is repaid and walks away. Not a bad idea for the person named on the chanote but because there is no security for the tenant there is nothing done to improve or even maintain the land. Edited September 21, 2012 by IsaanAussie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spotty Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 We are also looking at land in Isaan as an investment for the kids. Somethng tangible to pass on. The sort of land in the UK that sells for 6500GBP/Acre tends be large fields - 40/50 acres at a time. This means a very large outlay with a very meagre yield. The 5-10 acres fields tend to reach much higher prices. 7 acres near us just sold for 72k GBP. This land will never show a yield. They usually sell for keeping horses on or as potential building land if the planning rules ever change. We are thinking of rubber in the fullness of time. We plan on the FIL taking care of it, initially supported by my wife's UK earnings. We see this as a way of saving face all round. FIL gets supported (MIL deceased). Wife is under no illusions and is keen to get value for money out of her dad. Kids inherit. Our daughter has dual nationality. She is 16 months old. We only have UK documents for her at present but will get her registered as Thai in due course. Does anyone know if she is allowed to own chanote land in LOS? Alternatively, could baby be my Thai partner in a company which owned the land? If so it would keep the rest of the parasitic in laws from trying anything on. In addition, I've read of the diffulties absentee owners face. Does anyone have any success stories as to how an absentee could stem the losses & fiddling while building up a viable size of spread. Cheers Spotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALFREDO Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 -Spotty- As far as I know, Thai Land titles in name of child, is a NO. Child Thai Partner in a company, I would believe also a -no- but not sure. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 -Spotty- As far as I know, Thai Land titles in name of child, is a NO. Child Thai Partner in a company, I would believe also a -no- but not sure. Good luck You can put land in kids names, but you need a court order to sell them if the child is not of age. It is the child's land. Think it is a good way to make sure your kids have a future. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALFREDO Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 -jamescollister- Yes, you seem to be right, I was always, more than 10 years ago told, cannot! http://<URL Automatically Removed>/doing-things-legally/94745-thai-land-in-thai-childs-name.html http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/551686-buying-house-in-sons-name/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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