Creating A Position In Thailand

[~G~]

My company is already established in Thailand. We have a sister department in our Thailand office but would like to be prepared before they are included in our plans. The people who fill the positions may report directly to managers in the US, or may report to our Thailand managers, a decision that has not been made thus far.

The initial job posting and resume gathering will be performed by our Thailand human resources group. Staff from the US will be doing the interviews to assure us the applicants we choose meet our needs.

I do not wish to go and destroy our relationship with the Thai department. At some point we may train them on our software and Content Management system.

It sounds a bit strange. If you have faith in your Thai "sister department", why don't you let them take care of the whole process, including recruitment and daily supervision?

From what I have garnered from the posts and research, saving face may be an issue with the existing staff. Am I correct that we may cause the sister department managers to lose face if we have our new hire report directly to us?

I am not sure what kind of cooperation you have there, but if they are your exclusive Thai branch or representative they might. Or did you mean having them in the same office and not report to the managers there? Yes, this will make them lose face.

If so, how serious do Thai's take losing face?

Don't go there.

Edited February 2, 2006 by ~G~

[MattFS218]

You were saying

some network guru forums

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/archive/in...p/t-173990.html

I'd go with the T1 service due to the fact of longevity.

The latency is going to be much lower, especially for a VPN solution, and if you ever plan to do data and voice over the same line, xDSL won't cut it, no matter what they tell you or your bandwidth allocation.

Eat your hat and learn

I am sure the answer would be similar in our technical forums. Obviously you forgot to read the memo about the difference between T1 and xDSL.

Google if you are not convinced:

http://www.google.co.th/search?q=T1+vs+xDS...:en-US:official

Butterfly,

Your very slick with the mis-interpreted information and the reference to a google search. The person with the handle CandyMan in the tribalwar form did infact say what you quoted. However in his very next post he qualifies what he said and states

xDSL is usually a co-subscriber connection. Meaning they rent the bandwidth from somebody else before renting it from you.

Tier1 lines are just that, backbone sessions from backbone providers. MCI, TWTelecom, Sprint, ATT, etc.

The lower latency comes in from how many hops it takes your core router to get to the providers core router.

He clarifies that the latency he was talking about was a co-subscriber (ie many people sharing the same internet connection) problem and NOT based on the xDSL/T1 technology differences. He goes onto say where latency comes from (ie the number of network hops to the Tier-1 backbone) which is an Internet connectivity issue on the ISP side.

Both xDSL and T1 connections both take one-hop to get to the ISP's network, it then depends on the ISP for the quality of service you receive. Now adays, if you pay enough, the ISP will give you premium bandwith in an xDSL connection w/o the cost of the expensive T1 local loop.

The OP of the forum you mentioned also clearly states that T1 connections are expensive in the states too, correctly verifying my claim.

Next time, try a little harder to find a rouge internet user who is willing to support your point of view.

-Matt

[Butterfly]

Dude, read your posts again

Stop pretending to have "technical skills" you don't have.

The reasons you have more loops, is not by choice, but because more equipments are required to perform the "quality control" routing of a T1 (I am symplifying for you here). To complex matter further, the latency issue is not only coming from the "hops" but inherent to the "quality" of the lines you are using, on top of other "equipment" issues. So in summary, it's a "technology" issue.

I chose on example from that forum and I read it entirely before posting it and this is why I posted the google link, that you conveniently chose to ignore to further your research on the subject

To quote what you said previously:

There is NO inherrent latency or speed issues with xDSL compared with T1, infact several high grade carriers use xDSL technology for their backbone links in certain areas of the states (I'm not sure about abroad).

Yeah, right

The OP of the forum you mentioned also clearly states that T1 connections are expensive in the states too, correctly verifying my claim.

No, you didn't, see here

T1's in developed countries are the same cost; it's more of a local loop (public utilities) surcharge than an internet connectivity cost.

I was claiming that T1 was more expensive, you were claiming that they are the same cost. per your post above. Make sure to keep track of your discrepancies next time ?

[MattFS218]

Butterfly,

I don't know what you are talking about when you refer to lops. Hops are from one router to another, which is ISP based and not local carrier based (like T1, or xDSL). There is no routing done on a T1 line or an xDSL line, routing is done at the TCP/IP layer (or layer 3) over the internet.

T1 and xDSL are physical network layer items, and there is no technology quality of service difference, either with latency or lost data. In fact xDSL is preferred now because of the lower carrier costs (or local loop or last mile costs).

Your miss-information comes from the fact that many ISPs of xDSL services geared towards home users sell xDSL service at full T1 speeds, but lack the internet bandwidth (or international bandwidth in Thailand's case) to provide full T1 speeds to all users simultaneously. This leads many, like yourself to conclude that xDSL service is inferior to T1 service.

I'm saying, in fact it's not. If you look, you can find xDSL solutions that provide the same type of premium bandwidth once only available for T1 users. Very few end-user/office solutions utilize T1 these days because of the expensive carrier costs, and not because of a lack of Internet bandwidth in Thailand.

I'll leave it to other users to form their own opinions about your IT skills.

Matt

[MattFS218]

Butterfly:

From your own Google reference: Broadband Reports at http://www.dslreports.com/faq/10 states...

"A T1 line and an SDSL line uses the same underlying technology - HDSL. The differences between them are not in performance, they are in ease of provisioning and speed of repair.

In the US, lines for T1 data are normally treated as higher importance by telcos, than DSL lines, so time to repair and provisioning can be considerably faster. A T1 fault may be repaired within hours, or a day, whereas a DSL line fault could be a 5 day turn around time."

I hope there aren't any additional questions about my IT knowledge. The second paragraph confirms what I was saying about it being a "telco surcharge".

But back to the OP, and my answer...yes, internet in Bangkok is reliable and cheap. Maybe not quite to western standards, but pretty darn close. I remind you I am talking about Bangkok and not rural areas or other metropolitan areas in Thailand.

All the best,

Matt

[Butterfly]

Butterfly:

From your own Google reference: Broadband Reports at http://www.dslreports.com/faq/10 states...

"A T1 line and an SDSL line uses the same underlying technology - HDSL. The differences between them are not in performance, they are in ease of provisioning and speed of repair.

In the US, lines for T1 data are normally treated as higher importance by telcos, than DSL lines, so time to repair and provisioning can be considerably faster. A T1 fault may be repaired within hours, or a day, whereas a DSL line fault could be a 5 day turn around time."

I hope there aren't any additional questions about my IT knowledge. The second paragraph confirms what I was saying about it being a "telco surcharge".

But back to the OP, and my answer...yes, internet in Bangkok is reliable and cheap. Maybe not quite to western standards, but pretty darn close. I remind you I am talking about Bangkok and not rural areas or other metropolitan areas in Thailand.

All the best,

Matt

Well, Matt, I didn't claim to be a IT specialist in the first place like you did.

Still I know a little bit on the subject, enough to call bull when I see it.

Man, you are getting owned so bad and you are asking for more. Be my guest.

- You "conveniently" forgot to explain how you claimed something in one post and another in another post. Your "dishonnesty" in arguing is obvious here.

- You claim that xDSL does not have latency and it's just an ISP choice. If you understood Network protocols (the OSI is just a model btw), you would know that different network protocols have overlapping protocols in the model. In this case, The Physical Transport, that is NOT the phone line, but the signal through the phone line, requires different equipments to "decipher" those signals. How can you claim they are the same and perform the same ?

- You keep claiming the SLA is the only difference, it's not true. I have the same SLA for both lines and I see different quality of service even though in theory they should be the same.

But again, you will not refer to my google links and choose to ignore all those arguments instead. I am not even sure you understand what you are reading.

I tell you what. I opened a thread about it in the technical forum, and we will see what our "resident" experts here says

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59090

[MattFS218]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59090

The first 3 posts clearly confirm my points. I hope now, you decide to change your view of my opinions, as they are valid and accurate.

Telling someone they lack skills (especially as rudely as you have done), that you don't poses yourself, probably isn't a good habit to get yourself into. Anyway, have a good weekend.

Matt

[Butterfly]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59090

The first 3 posts clearly confirm my points. I hope now, you decide to change your view of my opinions, as they are valid and accurate.

Telling someone they lack skills (especially as rudely as you have done), that you don't poses yourself, probably isn't a good habit to get yourself into. Anyway, have a good weekend.

Matt

No they didn't

Keep wrapping yourself in you "dishonnest" arguments. It seems that you don't even understand what the posters are saying there. Apart from the first post, it seems that the arguments implies that the technology are indeed different and have different performance. See you in that thread if you can actually understand what they say there, but obviously it's not the case. So much for an IT specialist

[MattFS218]

No they didn't

Keep wrapping yourself in you "dishonnest" arguments. It seems that you don't even understand what the posters are saying there. Apart from the first post, it seems that the arguments implies that the technology are indeed different and have different performance. See you in that thread if you can actually understand what they say there, but obviously it's not the case. So much for an IT specialist

Response #1

“Well, xDSL should be very comparable to a T1 in terms of performance, since xDSL is based on the same technology as DS1 or T1 (namely, 2B1Q encoding). If a dedicated T1 is considered more reliable, it is due to the fact that when businesses purchase a more expensive connection, they expect a higher quality of service.”

Response #2

“you would be better off using SDSL”

Response #3

“the major difference is really the business practice and quality-of-service arrangements on the other side of the modem at the central office”

All in response to your question on the differences between T1 and xDSL. You reference the South Korean way. Luckily your mistakes are honest mistakes made by many non-IT professionals, just don't go around calling others liars.

--Matt

[Butterfly]

No they didn't

Keep wrapping yourself in you "dishonnest" arguments. It seems that you don't even understand what the posters are saying there. Apart from the first post, it seems that the arguments implies that the technology are indeed different and have different performance. See you in that thread if you can actually understand what they say there, but obviously it's not the case. So much for an IT specialist

Response #1

“Well, xDSL should be very comparable to a T1 in terms of performance, since xDSL is based on the same technology as DS1 or T1 (namely, 2B1Q encoding). If a dedicated T1 is considered more reliable, it is due to the fact that when businesses purchase a more expensive connection, they expect a higher quality of service.”

Response #2

“you would be better off using SDSL”

Response #3

“the major difference is really the business practice and quality-of-service arrangements on the other side of the modem at the central office”

All in response to your question on the differences between T1 and xDSL. You reference the South Korean way. Luckily your mistakes are honest mistakes made by many non-IT professionals, just don't go around calling others liars.

--Matt

Your "dishonnesty" knows no limit. Only partially quoting the response, leaving out the part that contractdicted your arguments. More to come. See response #4 and get owned more

Your mistakes as an "IT professional" just say enough about yourself

[MattFS218]

yah, you know... I made all 3 of the first responders say the words I've quoted. <sarcasm>

It's interesting how you phrase questions to illicit an answer that supports your point of view, to bad it's not working! If anyone has any doubts they can view the topic themselves.

--Matt

[Cassandra]

I disagree completely with the two posts above and respectfully suggest that they both have more to do with the posters' self-interests than anything even remotely resembling the truth.

I have been involved in international banking and corporate finance in Thailand for over twenty years. English language proficiency and educational standards in general among local employees here is the worst in Asia and the technical support infrastructure is a joke. "Good internet is cheap and easy to come and dependable," the above poster says, which is just utter nonsense. The total available international bandwidth in Thailand is controlled by corrupt government agencies and the speed is entirely dependant on how much of this restricted bandwidth may be made available at any particular time. As a rule, internet access here is both slow and completely unreliable. Technical support is nonexistent, both due to a lack of training and because problem solving is not part of the Thai culture.

Based on your quite general description of what you are looking for, I think you would be nuts to consider anywhere other than Singapore. Thailand is a third world country. No amount of cheerleading by local residents who have, for whatever reason, made their bed here is going to change that. And the Thais themselves haven't the slightest interest in changing it other than to prattle on and on about their own self-importance.

If you want food and women, come to Thailand. If you actually want to do international business in the twenty-first century, however, go to Singapore (although the food in Singapore isn't bad either).

Anyone who has worked in at a responsible management position in Thailand would know that what Old Asia Hand has written is broadly true.The trouble, addressing the original question,is that this forum is not really populated by many who are qualified to respond sensibly.Rightly or wrongly one has the impression only a small minority are gainfully employed with work permits at a senior level in Thailand.Most of the discussion on investment and management issues comes from small timers and visa runers who "love" Thailand and want to buy a "business" (and of course from those who feed off them).

[OldAsiaHand]

Well said and truly spoken.

Now, a word of advice.

DUCK!

[ace]

I don't usually get involved in flame-wars but I gotta have a pop at this one, as I work for a big ol' telco.

Butterfly: Wrong

Matt: Right

There you go.

Bring it on.

[solo siam]

As a manager of a technology company here in Thailand I would have to say no it isnt a particularly good place to do business, Internet is a joke - I've read several people on here saying just get a T1 line.

The thing is Thailands international connection is only big enough to support around 100 of these total, and that would be taking up the complete Thailand bandwidth available. Contended lines are not very reliable, fast or honest here, With upwards to 50 users sharing the available bandwidth (1024 kbps).

I had a leased line here in Phuket two years ago, it cost me 15,000 Baht a month + VAT for 384 kbps uncontended. Thats probably come down a little since then, but last time I looked it was still 12,000 baht or so.

Staffing is a big issue here, Even looking for an admin person / receptionist is difficult. Its just too difficult to find competent staff who are willing to take responsibility for anything. That really is the crux of the matter people dont want responsibility, they dont take ownership of projects/problems etc... They will lie to you rather than have to say no when you want to hear yes, or admit they got something wrong.

In regards to people argueing about DSL/T1 - Regardless if it uses packet switching or not, a T1 is a leased line, uncontended, always on at full rate line, a DSL line is shared, has to negotiate for bandwidth and often runs on phone lines, whereas most T1's they will cable to your door.

With a leased line sometimes the last mile is done by copper and a VDSL modem is used, However thats not a DSL connection, thats a leased line connection. ADSL in Thailand is very poor.

Running a company is an uphill struggle, with bribes to pay, incomprehensible laws to try and understand, tax hassles etc...

[Indo-Siam]

I am the one who first mentioned T1 lines in this thread - and I did NOT recommend it to anyone - I was simply responding to the OP's initial comments that he was not aware of anything above 256K speed - and I simply said that was wrong - you can get all the way up to T1 or T3 line - if you NEED it and can pay for it.

Everyone nay-saying the availability of resaonable ADSL service in Bangkok is not very well informed. I'm very well informed. Because - my company runs ADSL at five locations in Bangkok:

1) At Sukhumvit Soi 79, Prakhanong - True 256/128 Kbps - "Home" package - oversee all company operations, and run an offshore company including frequent transmission of CAD-CAM engineering drawings.

2) At company main office, 13th Floor of building on Soi Asoke, Klongtoey Nua - CSLoxinfo 2,048/512 Kbps - Run main company operations

3) At ground floor office building on Soi Asoke, Klongtoey Nua - CSLoxinfo 2,048/512 Kbps - Runs distributor rebate program for HP Thailand national distributor network, under contract to BPO form in Singapore. Four work stations loading data into mainframe system in Singapore, including large volume of scanned images of invoices.

4) Three-story shophouse building on soi of Soi Ruam Rudee, Pathumwan - True 512/256 Kbps - Support four companies, via a Wi-Fi hub - one IT Services Company, two companies related to hotel marketing programs, and one regional office for a US tradeassociation - this involved heavily with transmitting images and text for multi-language publication of literature

5) A grnd floor office on Ratchadapisek Soi 10, Huaykwang - CSLoxinfo 256/128 Kbps - At this location the main funtion is Search Engine Optimization work for a South African client - all dau long a staff there loads website descriptions into Intenet directories - and reviews past submissions to determine status of acceptance.

As far as I am concerned, all of my busines activities - and those of my supported tenants - are basically Internet intensive businesses. In no case has lack of good ADSL support prevented a good business from succeeding.

What is true is that Thailand has limited international gateway connectivity - and this frequently causes significant performance slowdowns in the 4:30 pm to 8:00 pm time slot. This is predictable, and manageable - and if you are planning to run a business that is so weak and shakey that you cannot plan around a routine slow performance period - then don't start the business - because if it is that shakey, it won't survive for a slew of reasons.

Having reviewed business start-up plans for hundreds of businesses - certainly more than 500 (but not yet 1,000), I have seen a number of recurring patterns:

1) People who cannot grasp the difference between the need to have a COMPANY in Thailand, or the need to have a MISSION PERFORMED in Thailand by a dedicated, trained staff. If all you need is a MISSION performed, then don't start a company - just out-source the work. That is what www.bangkokstaff.com is about. We run operations with dedicated, trained staff for a number of companies. Our clients can forget about all the whiney complaints about company structure/ownership, taxes, bribery, employee management - they just have to worry about mission coordination - we take care of the rest. If you do not NEED to climb the learning curve, then don't climb it - such "one-off" non-revenue-generating effort bleeds a lot of unnecceasry energy out of your main business mission.

2) People who can not grasp the difference between running a "profit center" company in Thailand, or a "cost center" company in Thailand. If it is a "cost center" - designed to help an overseas company make more money at its end - and it will never earn significant profit or pay dividends - then WHO CARES who owns it??? - it is a liability, not an asset. Create a Thai majority-owned company that sends one invoice to overseas parent company each month to recover operating costs, and then forget about company ownership issues and Alien Business Licenses. Given the choice between creating a large expensive unprofitable cost center that you can own, or a small inexpensive cost center that you simply fund - choose the latter.

I could write a lot more, but I will save the rest for my company's clients.

Getting a business started in Thailand is not a problem - it is merely an expense. Running a successful, profitable business here long-term is a significant challenge.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Edited February 6, 2006 by Indo-Siam

[Butterfly]

I don't usually get involved in flame-wars but I gotta have a pop at this one, as I work for a big ol' telco.

Butterfly: Wrong

Matt: Right

There you go.

Bring it on.

Let me guess, you work in the server room

Getting a business started in Thailand is not a problem - it is merely an expense. Running a successful, profitable business here long-term is a significant challenge.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

You are absolutely right and I agree with you on that one and also about the profit/cost centers. You grasped those problems very nicely. However I am laughing at your arguments about ADSL and your 4 different ADSL package running at your 4 local branches. Anyone who has ADSL here (and I have also 2 different packages) know that you can't be taken seriously with your arguments. Read the tech forum here to get a clue. And I don't call "uploading" pics and "updating" websites with contents, Internet Intensive applications. Maybe I should have been more clear about that one: I should have said Network Intensive applications.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Butterfly

[Butterfly]

yah, you know... I made all 3 of the first responders say the words I've quoted. <sarcasm>

It's interesting how you phrase questions to illicit an answer that supports your point of view, to bad it's not working! If anyone has any doubts they can view the topic themselves.

--Matt

Ok, Matt, let's try it again very slow so you can actually understand where you got it wrong. For the record, I used to "think" like you did, that is that there were no difference between a T1 and a SDSL line apart from a minor latency issue. But guess what, that wasn't true, and I learned that from actual experience and from very "competent" network specialists.

You are probably not a network specialist, so you can't be really blamed for your technical misunderstanding. Anyway, no matter what, that is if it is "technology inherent" or "not", the latency issue is there and it's noticeable on network intensive applications. You can't deny that, no matter how you want to "spin" it.

A few "excerpt" from the IT gurus:

In short, ISPs are positioning traditional DS1 or T1 as more reliable so that they can continue to charge exorbitant rates for 1.5 Mbps connectivity

See above - not true - T1 is commonly run over fibre optic cable - anyone worth their salt knows that fibre and copper are nowhere near the same... DSL is sometimes refered to as last mile connections... giving its ease and cost effectiveness using new or existing copper between the exchange and the end user.... not to mention the relatively massive differences in max distance between the two.

and below probably lies the reason that SDSL has latency issues:

A T1 line isn't really all that fast, but it probably has a lower error rate if it is using the full copper bandwidth without plain old telephone interference.

...

As to your QoS questions: latency mostly comes from: the signalling bitrate (how long does it take to push a packet worth of bits into the wire) and packet queueing delays (affected by prioritization in the router configuration) ...

However, for metropolitan area links,the delay is mostly because of the equipment on the endpoints and not the wire/fiber itself.

And this probably takes the cake as an explanation, maybe too detailed even for me

The fractional cases are not true dedicated physical circuits, but are becoming more popular because they can be more cost-effective when the telco can use a more fungible infrastructure to satisfy SLAs. The extra telco equipment could, again, use a variety of mechanisms where additional QoS details are configured; at one extreme, a permanent virtual circuit assigns enough capacity and priority to deterministically behave as a fractional circuit; at the other end, a best-effort packet-switched backbone could mix the "psuedo-leased line" traffic with other unrelated customer traffic. The absolute worst case would be where you go back to the first scenario and have each site connect through telco and ISP, exchanging all of their traffic over the general Internet path between them.

Every extra step of demodulating, buffering, and remodulating a data stream will add a little latency due to the physics involved in the electronics and electro-optics. A store-and-forward packet switching scheme will have more latency still, compared to a bit-stream multiplexer. This is because the last bit for a packet will have to arrive in the buffering device before the first bit is sent back out. It is analogous to a local commuter train (store and forward packet) stopping at every station while the intercity express train (bit stream) flies through the station without pause. The previously mentioned queue priorities have to do with which "sidings" a train gets put onto in the station and how trains might be allowed to leave the station in different orders from which they arrived.

And from the XDSL FAQ

A T1 (E1 is the European near equivalent) line is a 1.544 Mb/s pulse code modulated (PCM) system compromised of 24 time division multiplexed (TDM) channels of 64 Kb/s each. A T1 defines a copper copper wire interface specification for transmission between a customer and provider. Not to be confused with a DS1, which is the digital signaling rate of the underlying carrier. Many people however use these terms interchangeably. T1/E1 lines have been used in voice and data networks throughout the world where highly available, high capacity networks needed to be built. In fact, DS1 (or T1) is just one step in hierarchy of systems with higher speeds (e.g. T3/DS3). In many cases, T1 lines have been installed for end users who require dedicated high speed bandwidth between their home and work (or Internet). T1/E1 cabling requirements are more stringent than that of xDSL with the setup costs reflecting the differences in the service. Still a popular solution for many organizations and individuals, typically you will find that this service is considerably more expensive for an end user than xDSL or cable modems. However, the service level for T1 lines is usually very high.

Ok, so let me ask you again ? where are the similarities again ? a silly "local surcharge" or a "real" internet cost in terms of quality and service, may it be hardware or software ?

T1's in developed countries are the same cost; it's more of a local loop (public utilities) surcharge than an internet connectivity cost.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Butterfly

[Butterfly]

Most of the discussion on investment and management issues comes from small timers and visa runers who "love" Thailand and want to buy a "business" (and of course from those who feed off them).

Sadly true but it wouldn't make those discussions so interesting if it was not the case

Edited February 6, 2006 by Butterfly

[solo siam]

Lets face it, a Hong Kong 10 Mbps connection cost around 30 US $ a month, In real speed its between 3 and 7 mbps - That same amount of money here gets you 256 kbps, again real speed is probably 30-70% of the total speed.

People talking about shifting hi-res images and hi-res CAD drawings all day on these ADSL connections are probably talking about 300-500k images, If you need to shift 10+ images above 1-2 megabyte size per hour, I would say that it would be difficult to accomplish that here and you will be dissapointed.

People are talking about their 2mb ADSL line, one chap on here has two of them, Consider that running at full speed Thailand could only support at most fifty or so of these running at full speed , 2 of which are owned by just one poster on here - and you understand how much of this speed those lines actually realise.

[Indo-Siam]

Faulty post deleted by author.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Indo-Siam

[Indo-Siam]

I have NEVER seen a thread get so totally off-base in relation to the original poster's inquiry.

Talk about high-bandwidth traffic requirements is irrelevant to 99% of all people even considering starting a business in Thailand.

I have some background in Bangkok designing and testing solutions for both live webcam streaming video - on a large scale - and also large scale VoIP operations using fairly sophisticated gateways- back when I represented a German firm (see http://www.teles.de).

It was in this work that I learned about what CAN be accomplished here - if you pay the right people. I terminated my involvement with all this when a Thai government fellow named Thamanoon starting hammering down on the activity that I was supposed to be supporting.

But - along the way, I learned where to find answers. Such as:

http://iir.ngi.nectec.or.th/internet/map/current.html

and http://iir.ngi.nectec.or.th/

Reality is not quite as good as much of what is posted on these sites - but it is better than most citations in this thread.

Now - most actual money-making businesses in Thailand can get along quite well here. Since words don't seek to work with some of the stubborn people here, I'll use pictures. And - if you are a REAL business person trying to decide whether YOUR practical business requirements can be satisfied, I will provide you with a baseline against which you can compare your needs.

First, a photo of a red box that contains three days worth of HP Thailand invoices - back last April when we were just starting out the program with two processors, and demand was "low."

Then - a photo of a filing cabinet, showing shelves full of binders. Each week, one to one and a half shelves worth of invoices were scanned, indexed, and fed to a Singapore mainframe, using a high-speed Kodak scanner.

Now - February 2006 - the support was so successful, that HP's sales activity has increased to the point that we had to move the operation to its own office, as it is about to expand from four to six people - and now also feeding documents to India. The operation is now filling up an entire cabinet every couple of weeks - so we need four cabinets (and then HP sends a document collection company to pick up oldest files). Three cabinets shown in this photo.

Now - how many prospective businessmen looking at coming to Thailand will have a more

demanding application - more activity that needs to be transmitted - continuously - than this?

I know the bandwidth required for streaming video - and for streaming audio. If you need to deliver such traffic within Thailand, that is not too much of a challenge. If you need to transmit this data internationlly, then you will have a problem - due to restricted international access gateways.

But - how many businesses actually need to send such traffic internationally?

Reading the postings from the last couple of pages of this thread, you would think that 80% of all businesses need to send streaming high resolution video. That's a ridiculous perception. Try 0.8% - or less.

It is horribly destructive to the general population of this dicussion board for a small group of nameless people who are preoccupied/obsessed with niche applications that are not even vaguely typical of mainstream business requirements - to hijack a discussion thread - take it miles off the OP's original path - and propagate the idea to the viewership at large that typical business activities here are likely to be hamstrung by deficient ADSL service, or inability to find English-speaking (or high quality) staff. I represent just a drop in the ocean here - but I also represent what is typical - and I can assure readers of this thread that most businesses should not expect to have problems - if you obtain knowledgeable advice. Hint: Don't go to the people who say "it can't be done" - go to people who are doing it now.

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Indo-Siam Group

Do not follow where the path may lead. Go where there is no path, and leave a trail. Muriel Strode

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Edited February 6, 2006 by Indo-Siam

[solo siam]

I am by no means nameless, My name and company are in my user name, Steve - you have a vested interest in getting people to start more businesses in Thailand, In fact you have a vested interest in them struggling to do it.

"What is the likliehood of finding candidates with strong written and excellent spoken English skills in Bangkok?

Is the infrastructure (ie internet access speed) in Bangkok likely to be upgraded anytime soon. The fastest speed I have found is 256K. We will require roughly 1024 min as these positions will be directly networked to our home office."

These are the questions from the OP, The answer to these is that English Language skills are poorer here than in any other place he listed with the exception of maybe China. He will be lucky to find any connection which regularly puts out 1024 kbps. Your statement about local/international traffic holds no truth, Try doing speed checks on any of your 5 ADSL connections and see what the difference is between local/international sites. What traffic would the OP be using locally anyhow? I'm not sure how you think the internet works.

Then there is the question of paying bribes, confusing Legal and tax issues (for example Withholding Tax) and finding reliable staff.

Seriously if it wasnt for the fact that people wanted to live here for reasons other than work, how many companies would be in Thailand to make money?

[Butterfly]

I represent just a drop in the ocean here - but I also represent what is typical

No, you don't, steve, that's the problem. You are either very lucky and making these very naive remarks or you are just being plain dishonnest here. I vote for the former in your case, I think you got very lucky. You don't represent what is typical here. Typical here is non-speaking staff stealing from your cash register or sleeping on the job. I have met enough business owners here to know that this is a "general" problem. Maybe you are interpreting those events differently but this is how I see them.

And quoting great thinkers does not making our arguments any less real. But you are right, people should try, but they should also be prepared and lower their expectations.

[Butterfly]

Seriously if it wasnt for the fact that people wanted to live here for reasons other than work, how many companies would be in Thailand to make money?

I know the answer to that one: NONE

[Butterfly]

Now - how many prospective businessmen looking at coming to Thailand will have a more

demanding application - more activity that needs to be transmitted - continuously - than this?

I know the bandwidth required for streaming video - and for streaming audio. If you need to deliver such traffic within Thailand, that is not too much of a challenge. If you need to transmit this data internationlly, then you will have a problem - due to restricted international access gateways.

But - how many businesses actually need to send such traffic internationally?

That's where we disagree. You seriously think what you are doing is demanding in terms of application and transmission ? compared to who ? bar owners ? anyone who want to run an "outsource" center (per OP request) here, will need more demanding applications and transmission than you do here.

Streaming video is an extreme, but between putting pics on a server and streaming audio video, there are many other demanding things that need to be done even for a small business.

ADSL in Thailand is NOT reliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The definition of reliability should be that it "works" all the time, but it's not the case here. Maybe your expectations are so low now that you are willing to accept those "down time" as normal. They are not.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Butterfly

[Indo-Siam]

"What is the likliehood of finding candidates with strong written and excellent spoken English skills in Bangkok?

It is easy, if you know how and where to look. In the past four years, I have had two customers who are in the business of sending Thais oversaes to English-language university schooling - IDP Education Australia, and Study Group International - both with offices on Silom Road, near Saldaeng BTS Station. Together, these two organizations send more than 250 Thais overseas each year - actually, closer to 500 Thais. And - these two represent less thn 10% of the total of such organizations here in Thailand. So - there are at least 5,000 Thais going overseas each year for English-language University study. That also means a like number returning - on average - each year. Now - when a fresh graduate from an English speaking University returns to Thailand, do you suppose that just maybe they might be interested in working for a company where English-language skills are required? Maybe?

I have found that every Thai who has attended English-speaking univeristy overseas - and then returned to Thailand - knows a significant number of otherThais that have done the same.

In almost every Internet cafe along both Sukhumvit and Silom roads, there are Thai university graduates who speak English and who make their living translating e-mail messages - generally for bargirls. If they work long hours, they make 10,000-15,000 baht per month. Some of them are smart, hardworking people. Given the chance, some of them can do very good work in an office.

Every four star and up hotel has a Business Center - whose staff invariably speaks pretty good English. The same for hotel desk staffs.

Every travel agency - dive shop - and many other types of businesses are full of Thai workers who speak reasonably good English.

The key is - as a foreign businessman in Bangkok - you should ALWAYS be in recruiting mode. Everywhere I go, I am ALWAYS looking for good Thai staff. For my company, or for my company's clients. If you are awake and alert, it is VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE for any heads's-up foreigner to NOT come into contact with dozens of English-speaking Thais every week. You cannot help but be awash in candidates. You just have to be able to pick out "winners" - and then recruit them.

Typical here is non-speaking staff stealing from your cash register or sleeping on the job. I have met enough business owners here to know that this is a "general" problem.

This is the comment of a barfly whose entire experience is based on Thai nightlife busineses - and it might be appropraite to such businesses. "Cash register"? Are you smoking crack? What do you suppose the percentage is of foreign business start-ups outside the sex tourism sector that employ a "cash register." Including hotels, dive shops, intenet cafes, and similar - maybe 5%. I cannot recall of even one business that my company has helped set up that had a cash register.

Having staff that goof off or steal from business is a direct reflection on defective leadership at the top. Every Thai worker I have works without significant supervision. They don't work for "me" - they work for "the company" - and they understand that it is THEIR company - and the better the company does, the better they do.

If you are a good leader, and run a company where yoor Thai employees feel good about what they do, and know that they will prosper as the company prospers, thena funny thing happens: you never again have to worry about attracting good candidates. All you have to do is mention to your key Thai staff that you need an additional English speaking person in "x" role, and they will bring you candidates. That - and - your company will receive a steady stream of resumes and walk-in candidates, seeking employment.

If you are a defective leader, and you wander around Bangkok in a daze bemoaning why a steady stream of English speaking workaholics are not lining up at your door - then you are not going to do well here. And if you look to such characters for advice, they are going to poison your soul.

Seriously if it wasnt for the fact that people wanted to live here for reasons other than work, how many companies would be in Thailand to make money?

I dunno - but, since you ask - please go to the following websites, click on all the categories, count the number of businesss, and get back to us with that count. Either that, or surrender what is - in fact - a losing point of argument:

http://www.boi.go.th/english/about/form_pr...d_companies.asp

http://www.tisi.go.th/syscer/9000.html

http://www.amchamthailand.com/acct/asp/Cor...sp?SponsorID=60

http://www.wesleynet.com/thcompanyprofile.asp?start=A

Then there is the question of paying bribes, confusing Legal and tax issues (for example Withholding Tax) and finding reliable staff.

I tell you what - when you are done counting all the companies listed in the weblinks above, maybe you should spend a few minutes pondering how it is that all these companies have established themselves and prospered in an environment that you find so impossible to deal with.

I will absolutely concur that both Singapore and Hong Kong can provide better access to international broadband than can Bangkok. And for a tiny minority of business activities, that better access is compelling, and overcomes the enormously more expensive operting costs in those cities.

For the salary that you must offer to hire a junior executive or service engineering type person in Hong Kong or Singapore, you can easily attract a Thai who speaks excellent English - if you know what you are doing.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Prudent_rabbit]

The key is - as a foreign businessman in Bangkok - you should ALWAYS be in recruiting mode. Everywhere I go, I am ALWAYS looking for good Thai staff.

so so true

Then there is the question of paying bribes, confusing Legal and tax issues (for example Withholding Tax) and finding reliable staff.

Been here 20 months, bribes paid = 0

Seriously if it wasnt for the fact that people wanted to live here for reasons other than work, how many companies would be in Thailand to make money?

Well we are doing Ok and we are here to make money.

Seriously, if you are looking for staff, use a specialist, obviously Im biased because I run a recruitment company, however one of the major points in being succesful is concentrate on your core business, outsource as much as you can to other proffesionals, or surround yourself with people who have skills in the areas where you are not so strong, thats not just Thailand, thats everywhere

[solo siam]

Prudent rabbit - Sorry dont believe that a farang can start and run a successful business in Thailand for 20 months without having to have paid a bribe somewhere along the line. I too ran a recruitment company back in teh UK and have done consultancy over here for several recruitment agencies, So I know the employee situation here and its not good.

Steve - 5,000 people a year going to further education in an English speaking country is not a lot. Also dont you expect that most people who can afford to go to university abroad will have family businesses, money to start their own company etc... which will occupy them when they get back, Plus all the ones that actually stay in the country they studied in.

Both prudentrabbit and Steve's work involves helping others with their business needs, solely because it is hard to do business here. I dont think the two of you are being particularly honest in your assesment of the business climate here.

The OP wanted to know if the Internet was fast/reliable enough and if their was a large selection of fluent English Speaking people, The naswer on both counts is no.

[Prudent_rabbit]

Prudent rabbit - Sorry dont believe that a farang can start and run a successful business in Thailand for 20 months without having to have paid a bribe somewhere along the line.

Ok you dont believe me, no problems, but im not lying

I dont think the two of you are being particularly honest in your assesment of the business climate here.

The OP wanted to know if the Internet was fast/reliable enough and if their was a large selection of fluent English Speaking people, The naswer on both counts is no.

The business I run here is 99.9% Thai jobs, and I am giving an honest assesment

Cant answer on the Internet front, but if you want to try the second point, my fee is 18% of their annual salary with a 3 month gurantee if you want to put me to the test