Mekong River Dam Will Kill Us, Protesters Tell Yingluck

[cowslip]

In general the populations of Laos and Thailand, in fact most S.E. Asian countries have little or no education when it comes to environmental issues, this makes it all the more easy for governments to ride rough-shod over any objections and continue with these sort of projects without any real opposition.

What opposition there is tends to come from "outsiders" with little real bite.

i'm particularly disturbed to see that the Thai government seems to have thrown normal procedure to the wind with other dam projects too - notably the Mae Wong Dam which also has about 25 years of research that is disregarded or ignored by the current government.

BTW - ignorance of environmental issues is by no means the preserve of S.E. Asian populace as can be seen by many posts of similar topics by contributors to this and other forums.

I think you make many good points here. You are on point when you say that environmental education is needed. It is worth remembering, though, that many locals have put their lives on the line over environmental issues. This is in large part because they know how important the issue is to their lives, and the lives of their communities.

Many have paid the ultimate price. Although governments may continue to ignore the wholesale devastation of land and water by our global system, local people are often well aware of what is going on. In that sense, they are the ones who can educate us.

A gunman riding pillion on a motorcycle shot 47-year-old Thongnak nine times in front of his house in Samut Sakhon province’s Muang district at about 10 a.m. on July 28, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. Thongnak was hit with 9mm bullets in his left shoulder, abdomen, chest, and back, and died shortly after he arrived at a hospital.

“The government does little to recognize the contributions of environmentalists and human rights activists, then does even less after they are mowed down,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

http://www.hrw.org/n...nvironmentalist

The director of a well-known Cambodian environmental organization seeking to highlight government negligence and corruption over illegal logging was gunned down by military police on April 26. Chut Wutty, director of the Natural Resource Protection Group, was shot and killed in a car after he refused to hand over his camera’s memory card to the policeman.

http://thailand-busi...ns#.UGCW0K6-2So

According to Global Witness, more than seven hundred environmentalists have been murdered in the past ten years. These killings have occurred in 34 countries.

Most of the murder victims were indigenous people — or environmental activists working on their behalf — who were trying to protect their land from loggers, mining companies, developers and poachers. Three quarters of these murders took place in Peru, Brazil and Colombia. Another fifty killings took place in the Philippines; twenty in Thailand.

http://whohijackedou...-activists.html

I think we differ on what we term "local".

[Buchholz]

CONTROVERSIAL DAM

Mekong River Dam Will Kill Us, Protesters Tell Yingluck

Her response...

Thailand backs 3.5 billion dollar Mekong River dam project

Vientiane - Thailand on Tuesday threw its support behind a controversial hydro-power dam on the lower Mekong River which neighbours, environmentalists, and Thai communities have opposed.

"The Thai government is not opposed to the project," said Thai Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichachaikul, speaking at the sidelines of the Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) in the capital of Laos.

"The Lao government has already conducted studies that show there would be no impact on the environment and fisheries," Surapong said.

Laos will hold a ceremony Wednesday in Xayaburi to mark the start of riverbed construction on the 3.5-billion-dollar project.

The date was chosen to commemorate the 95th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, still a significant date in communist Laos which used to be a member of the Soviet bloc, government sources said.

-- The Nation 2012-11-06

Edited November 6, 2012 by Buchholz

[Pimay1]

CONTROVERSIAL DAM

Mekong River Dam Will Kill Us, Protesters Tell Yingluck

Her response...

Thailand backs 3.5 billion dollar Mekong River dam project

Vientiane - Thailand on Tuesday threw its support behind a controversial hydro-power dam on the lower Mekong River which neighbours, environmentalists, and Thai communities have opposed.

"The Thai government is not opposed to the project," said Thai Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichachaikul, speaking at the sidelines of the Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) in the capital of Laos.

"The Lao government has already conducted studies that show there would be no impact on the environment and fisheries," Surapong said.

Laos will hold a ceremony Wednesday in Xayaburi to mark the start of riverbed construction on the 3.5-billion-dollar project.

The date was chosen to commemorate the 95th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, still a significant date in communist Laos which used to be a member of the Soviet bloc, government sources said.

-- The Nation 2012-11-06

Yingluck to protesters:

Here's five Baht. Call someone that gives a shit. My brother has already told me to support this project.

[rubl]

Laos will hold a ceremony Wednesday in Xayaburi to mark the start of riverbed construction on the 3.5-billion-dollar project.

The date was chosen to commemorate the 95th anniversary of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, still a significant date in communist Laos which used to be a member of the Soviet bloc, government sources said.

The CCCP was also good at great projects to show the obvious superiority of the workers once they were free of any oppression.

[cowslip]

so the damned dam goes ahead.

Yingluck like most Thai MOs is either ignorant of the issues or simply doesn't care.

[OzMick]

As far as I am aware there is a huge amount of sediment that comes down the Mekong, I wonder how the turbines would cope with large amounts of possibly coarse granules passing through in wet season, and how long till the inflow of sediment into the dam reduces it's water holding capacity?

Yep, bet those stupid engineers never thought about that. You should contact the manufacturers, could get a highly paid consultancy pointing out the bleeding obvious.

[Buchholz]

so the damned dam goes ahead.

Yingluck like most Thai MOs is either ignorant of the issues or simply doesn't care.

I think it's the latter.... it's a lot of money and that over-rules whether or not it will kill people....

Thailand, Myanmar throw weight behind Dawei zone

Ministers from Myanmar and Thailand met on Wednesday to show their support for the struggling multibillion-dollar Dawei economic zone in Myanmar and to look for ways to drum up more private sector interest.

"Collaboration on Dawei is of the utmost importance to both our countries. The next step is to invite investment from the state and private sectors," Thai Finance Minister Kittirat Na Ranong said during a break in the meetings in Bangkok.

Bangkok approved a $1.1 billion budget in May for Dawei-related infrastructure in Thailand. It included a four-lane highway linking towns in Thailand to Myamar plus government offices at the border and housing for Thais who will work in the zone.

Continued:

http://news.yahoo.co...5tQCQ0A8U7QtDMD

Reuters - Nov. 7, 2012

Edited November 8, 2012 by Buchholz

[DeepInTheForest]

so the damned dam goes ahead.

Yingluck like most Thai MOs is either ignorant of the issues or simply doesn't care.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, cowslip.

There are good comments and links on it, and readers may wish to acquaint themselves with the basic ground of the issue.

In my view, it is a far more important topic than many, if not most, on this forum.

[cowslip]

On top of the river and its hinterland, the results of this dam will spread far and wide throughout the region. Sediments in rivers are what make alluvial soils. these are essential for agriculture and are deposited by floods. It is quite possible that this dam may disrupt or destroy the flow of sediments downstream, and although no dam can prevent flooding it may well interfere in a way that leaves thousands of acres of paddies, infertile or depleted.

[DeepInTheForest]

so the damned dam goes ahead.

Yingluck like most Thai MOs is either ignorant of the issues or simply doesn't care.

I think it's the latter.... it's a lot of money and that over-rules whether or not it will kill people....

Thailand, Myanmar throw weight behind Dawei zone

Ministers from Myanmar and Thailand met on Wednesday to show their support for the struggling multibillion-dollar Dawei economic zone in Myanmar and to look for ways to drum up more private sector interest.

"Collaboration on Dawei is of the utmost importance to both our countries. The next step is to invite investment from the state and private sectors," Thai Finance Minister Kittirat Na Ranong said during a break in the meetings in Bangkok.

Bangkok approved a $1.1 billion budget in May for Dawei-related infrastructure in Thailand. It included a four-lane highway linking towns in Thailand to Myamar plus government offices at the border and housing for Thais who will work in the zone.

Continued:

http://news.yahoo.co...5tQCQ0A8U7QtDMD

Reuters - Nov. 7, 2012

I think you are correct in pointing out that the greed for big money rules here. And I also appreciate the reference to the Dawei project, which is being steamrollered through despite concerns over its effect on health and environment.

From Burma News International, August 27, 2012:

.... He and other panelists on the environment have pointed out that the Thai investors have chosen the Dawei Project to avoid strong local opposition to expansion of industry zone, especially petrochemical industries zone, in the South and in Map Ta Phut, southeast of Thailand.

... the environmentalists have expressed that the dam construction and dirty petrochemical zones will seriously impacts the livelihood of the local people, wildlife, forests and water resources in the area. They said that the Burmese people have no strong environment laws to protect their resources and health, and the investors may take advantages to invest dirty and heavy industries in the country like Burma.

http://www.bnionline...i-project-.html

So there will be an end run around the pressure at Map Ta Phut by foisting polluting industries on the villagers of Burma. The international system of neoliberal economics and financial "development" is willing to commit murder or ecocide-- the same thing, really-- to achieve its odious, amoral ends. Are not short-term profits paramount?

We are deceiving ourselves if we think the fault lies solely with Yingluck, or Thaksin, or the PTP. Abhisit and the Democrats didn't oppose the Dawei project. And Abhisit was warned repeatedly about the Xayaburi project-- did he ever oppose it, even mildly? I can't find any evidence that he did. In fact, on the surface, he didn't admit to having the faintest grasp of the issue, even though members of his own party vigorously opposed the building of the dam.

From an opinion piece on The Nation, March 29, 2011:

An environmental atrocity is about to be committed on Thailand's eastern flank, which has the potential to make the Pak Moon Dam look like a minor mishap - and badly wound the Abhisit government, if it does nothing to stop it.

... Asked about the Xayaburi Dam and why Thailand was involved with a dam that could be potentially very damaging to neighbouring countries, the PM was confused about which dam the journalist asked about. He noted: "We let the MOU expire" - mistakenly referring to another dam proposed near Ubon Ratchathani. Maybe the PM's advisers need to alert him to this latest controversy and the need for this dam to be deferred - as the MRC has recommended - or axed altogether. It might win him a few votes.

http://www.nationmul...w-30151968.html

I am aware that I could be entirely wrong, but for what it's worth, my opinion is that Abhisit was being disingenuous in his reply to the journalist. I think he knew darn well what was going on-- how could he not? International condemnation of the dam has been pouring in for years. It's one of the hottest issues in the region, affecting every country in mainland Southeast Asia.

The point is that almost every government in the world is heaviliy influenced by big business interests. Entire segments of populations, and entire peoples are routinely thrown under the bus if that is convenient, and it often is.

The larger problem here is the system of neoliberal economics, which dominates our lives and is overrunning any concerns relating to human society, values, ethics, environment and ecology, life itself. The profit motive is valued above all else, including sustainability. Everything we love as humans is threatened, and may well disappear before our eyes-- in this lifetime.

Edited November 8, 2012 by DeepInTheForest

[Trembly]

Poor old Thailand really is in the dog house over Xayaburi Dam. On or about 17th April 2012 Ch Kangchang a Thai company specifically formed for the purpose of building Xayaburi Dam. This followed an earlier contract with the same company for Initial design and procurement activities. To date Thailand's financial exposure must be at least 100 Billion Baht. There is litigation pending which would explain why Yingluck as chief executive of the defendant could not agree to meet a protest group that are allied to the litigant against the Thai government.

Ch Kanchang has been around for decades.

[OzMick]

On top of the river and its hinterland, the results of this dam will spread far and wide throughout the region. Sediments in rivers are what make alluvial soils. these are essential for agriculture and are deposited by floods. It is quite possible that this dam may disrupt or destroy the flow of sediments downstream, and although no dam can prevent flooding it may well interfere in a way that leaves thousands of acres of paddies, infertile or depleted.

So people along the river should learn to live with flooding so that rice paddies can have flood fertilisation, a method that died with the ancient egyptians?

[OzMick]

so the damned dam goes ahead.

Yingluck like most Thai MOs is either ignorant of the issues or simply doesn't care.

I think it's the latter.... it's a lot of money and that over-rules whether or not it will kill people....

Thailand, Myanmar throw weight behind Dawei zone

Ministers from Myanmar and Thailand met on Wednesday to show their support for the struggling multibillion-dollar Dawei economic zone in Myanmar and to look for ways to drum up more private sector interest.

"Collaboration on Dawei is of the utmost importance to both our countries. The next step is to invite investment from the state and private sectors," Thai Finance Minister Kittirat Na Ranong said during a break in the meetings in Bangkok.

Bangkok approved a $1.1 billion budget in May for Dawei-related infrastructure in Thailand. It included a four-lane highway linking towns in Thailand to Myamar plus government offices at the border and housing for Thais who will work in the zone.

Continued:

http://news.yahoo.co...5tQCQ0A8U7QtDMD

Reuters - Nov. 7, 2012

I think you are correct in pointing out that the greed for big money rules here. And I also appreciate the reference to the Dawei project, which is being steamrollered through despite concerns over its effect on health and environment.

From Burma News International, August 27, 2012:

.... He and other panelists on the environment have pointed out that the Thai investors have chosen the Dawei Project to avoid strong local opposition to expansion of industry zone, especially petrochemical industries zone, in the South and in Map Ta Phut, southeast of Thailand.

... the environmentalists have expressed that the dam construction and dirty petrochemical zones will seriously impacts the livelihood of the local people, wildlife, forests and water resources in the area. They said that the Burmese people have no strong environment laws to protect their resources and health, and the investors may take advantages to invest dirty and heavy industries in the country like Burma.

http://www.bnionline...i-project-.html

So there will be an end run around the pressure at Map Ta Phut by foisting polluting industries on the villagers of Burma. The international system of neoliberal economics and financial "development" is willing to commit murder or ecocide-- the same thing, really-- to achieve its odious, amoral ends. Are not short-term profits paramount?

We are deceiving ourselves if we think the fault lies solely with Yingluck, or Thaksin, or the PTP. Abhisit and the Democrats didn't oppose the Dawei project. And Abhisit was warned repeatedly about the Xayaburi project-- did he ever oppose it, even mildly? I can't find any evidence that he did. In fact, on the surface, he didn't admit to having the faintest grasp of the issue, even though members of his own party vigorously opposed the building of the dam.

From an opinion piece on The Nation, March 29, 2011:

An environmental atrocity is about to be committed on Thailand's eastern flank, which has the potential to make the Pak Moon Dam look like a minor mishap - and badly wound the Abhisit government, if it does nothing to stop it.

... Asked about the Xayaburi Dam and why Thailand was involved with a dam that could be potentially very damaging to neighbouring countries, the PM was confused about which dam the journalist asked about. He noted: "We let the MOU expire" - mistakenly referring to another dam proposed near Ubon Ratchathani. Maybe the PM's advisers need to alert him to this latest controversy and the need for this dam to be deferred - as the MRC has recommended - or axed altogether. It might win him a few votes.

http://www.nationmul...w-30151968.html

I am aware that I could be entirely wrong, but for what it's worth, my opinion is that Abhisit was being disingenuous in his reply to the journalist. I think he knew darn well what was going on-- how could he not? International condemnation of the dam has been pouring in for years. It's one of the hottest issues in the region, affecting every country in mainland Southeast Asia.

The point is that almost every government in the world is heaviliy influenced by big business interests. Entire segments of populations, and entire peoples are routinely thrown under the bus if that is convenient, and it often is.

The larger problem here is the system of neoliberal economics, which dominates our lives and is overrunning any concerns relating to human society, values, ethics, environment and ecology, life itself. The profit motive is valued above all else, including sustainability. Everything we love as humans is threatened, and may well disappear before our eyes-- in this lifetime.

The use of electricity is what differentiates us from the cave man. The demand increases every year, and fossil fuels are not infinite. Yet the cleanest, cheapest and most efficient method of generating electricity is frowned upon with whining about fish, subsistence farming and whatever else.

It's going to happen. Get over it, and spend your time trying to solve the problems associated with hydro-power instead of wasting your time bitching because nobody of influence cares.

BTW your posting regarding EGAT and future planning is easy sniping at difficult forecasting for many years in advance. When new plant is brought online, it replaces older and less efficient, and excess supply is far preferable to under-supply stifling an expanding economy.

[Trembly]

As sickening as it is and as much as I'd love to be proven wrong, I think that we may as well accept that that the Mae Khong and surrounding lands are a write-off.

Here's hoping for some new fangled bio / terra-sciences to form some sort of redress in the future.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Trembly

[hellodolly]

As far as I am aware there is a huge amount of sediment that comes down the Mekong, I wonder how the turbines would cope with large amounts of possibly coarse granules passing through in wet season, and how long till the inflow of sediment into the dam reduces it's water holding capacity?

Good questions. I had heard that dams have a limited life time. They eventually fill up with silt and other debris brought down the river.

[hellodolly]

I wonder if Yingluck told the protesters her brother didn't care.

[OzMick]

Good questions. I had heard that dams have a limited life time. They eventually fill up with silt and other debris brought down the river.

It's a matter of money. At the moment de-silting isn't worth the expense, but as the value of hydro-power increases I'm sure engineering methods will find a way. As a last resort, you could always drain the dam and send in the backhoes to dig out what is a valuable commodity.

[bigbamboo]

I wonder if Yingluck told the protesters her brother didn't care.

Probably just told them to learn how to swim.

[Buchholz]

I wonder if Yingluck told the protesters her brother didn't care.

Probably just told them to learn how to swim.

Along with a threat of a defamation lawsuit if they say anything further that disrupts the 30 Billion Baht project (Thailand's portion).

.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Buchholz

[cowslip]

On top of the river and its hinterland, the results of this dam will spread far and wide throughout the region. Sediments in rivers are what make alluvial soils. these are essential for agriculture and are deposited by floods. It is quite possible that this dam may disrupt or destroy the flow of sediments downstream, and although no dam can prevent flooding it may well interfere in a way that leaves thousands of acres of paddies, infertile or depleted.

So people along the river should learn to live with flooding so that rice paddies can have flood fertilisation, a method that died with the ancient egyptians?

sorry no - the "wet" method of rice farming relies on rivers that "flood" even now. THe paddies are flooded every year with water containing sediments - it looks pretty controlled as irrigation canals are used but it basically relies on that extra flood water every year. As I said dams interfere with this.