If England Are Not Inferior, Why Have We Failed?

[carmine]

Do you mind?

Kicked me off all the other England threads so Stevie and myself are trying to have a serious discussion about Emgland's prospects.

At least I bothered to watch the game.

I wasn't aware that you and stevie had formed an england qualifying discussion group!! Well i'm sure that will contain lots of positives

Seriously though, if you got some facts right and stopped spouting <deleted> then you would get a discussion i'm sure. The stupidity of the posts thus far don't warrent comment. Same same ill thought out, desperately trying to go down the same old well trodden path.... Rix must be getting bored using you as cannon fodder. And you know what, everytime someone reitterates that we know were not that good that comment is struck from the records because its not whats wanted to be heard.

Roy might be a clown but i'll tell you something, he could make no bigger clown of himself than the one Capello made of himself in his horrid decisions in the last world cup. For such a successful club coach he was dreadful

[rixalex]

Do you mind?

Kicked me off all the other England threads so Stevie and myself are trying to have a serious discussion about Emgland's prospects.

At least I bothered to watch the game.

Roy might be a clown but i'll tell you something, he could make no bigger clown of himself than the one Capello made of himself in his horrid decisions in the last world cup. For such a successful club coach he was dreadful

Indeed, but the anti England people are only interested in bashing all things English, so whilst Capello was in charge, in spite of making those horrid decisions you mention, all of the venom was directed first and foremost at the players, and Capello, not being English, was pretty much spared criticism.

[carmine]

Do you mind?

Kicked me off all the other England threads so Stevie and myself are trying to have a serious discussion about Emgland's prospects.

At least I bothered to watch the game.

Roy might be a clown but i'll tell you something, he could make no bigger clown of himself than the one Capello made of himself in his horrid decisions in the last world cup. For such a successful club coach he was dreadful

Indeed, but the anti England people are only interested in bashing all things English, so whilst Capello was in charge, in spite of making those horrid decisions you mention, all of the venom was directed first and foremost at the players, and Capello, not being English, was pretty much spared criticism.

I don't particularily want a ban so i've just scrubbed my first reply! ! But i tell you what, the anti views expressed on here i could read in the tabloids the day after any england game we didn't win. Enough said

[Mooner]

England also have a dinosaur of a coach whose tactical acumen begins and ends with a 4-4-2.

Err we played 4-5-1 against Serbia but i agree with the tactics part

[Mooner]

We should of finished them off in the first half. I only watched the game today and from all the newspaper reports i thought it was going to be terrible. Until about 10 mins before they scored they didnt pose much of threat.

You have to accept when you are playing away against a half decent side that they are going to pressure you for 20 mins or so. My biggest gripe was that we didnt make any subs until after their goal. A couple before the goal might of helped us get hold of the game and grab another goal. Thats the managers fault not the players.

I think we are playing more football under Hodgson. I remember someone complaining about Cleverly only playing one twos. When did keeping possession of the ball become a bad thing? That has been Englands problem for a long while, trying to move the ball forward to quickly and losing possession all the time.

Its still in our hand. Serbia are obviously the best side we have to play and i think we will beat them at Wembley. Just have to make sure we dont slip up against any of the other sides. Im sure it wont be plain sailing, never is with England!

Serbia?

Keep forgeting they are not together. Well its easier to spell than Montenegro!

[Mooner]

Do you mind?

Kicked me off all the other England threads so Stevie and myself are trying to have a serious discussion about Emgland's prospects.

At least I bothered to watch the game.

Roy might be a clown but i'll tell you something, he could make no bigger clown of himself than the one Capello made of himself in his horrid decisions in the last world cup. For such a successful club coach he was dreadful

Indeed, but the anti England people are only interested in bashing all things English, so whilst Capello was in charge, in spite of making those horrid decisions you mention, all of the venom was directed first and foremost at the players, and Capello, not being English, was pretty much spared criticism.

Thats ok! I gave him enough stick. Hated Postman Pat.

[macanello]

MMMMMMMMMMMM

Superiority complex springs to mind

[StevieH]

don't think it's a difficult group but nor do i think it's "such an easy group". I don't think there are any "easy groups" these days at international level, and i don't know what quoting population figures has to do with it.. as if that is a gauge of a nation's football.

I also can't help wondering how many England games you have watched in the last 20 or 30 years. Why would anybody who knows anything about England's recent footballing "achievements" imagine that we would walk through any qualification?

it's a gauge of a nation's football because there's no way on earth that a country like england with its population, resources, development and infrastructure should ever be even remotely competing with a nation that's about twenty years old and is the size of sheffield.

if england finish behind tiny montenegro in this group and are forced into the potential lottery of the play-offs it would be utterly disastrous and ridiculous. and the manager would have to go. would you agree?

and i know plenty about england's qualification history thanks, and have watched them plenty too. you just sound like you're making the same old excuses which frankly, again given england's league, money and population, shouldn't exist. but you're right i'm not surprised that they're not walking through this qualification. but that's got less to do with history than it has with the clown in charge of the team.

[smokie36]

I lived in England for fifteen years and found the majority of people there to be very friendly and pleasant.

Most had a sense of humour too.

Nuff said.

[mrbojangles]

I lived in England for fifteen years

Where was that? In jail

[smokie36]

I lived in England for fifteen years

Where was that? In jail

London...so just as well might have been!

[carmine]

don't think it's a difficult group but nor do i think it's "such an easy group". I don't think there are any "easy groups" these days at international level, and i don't know what quoting population figures has to do with it.. as if that is a gauge of a nation's football.

I also can't help wondering how many England games you have watched in the last 20 or 30 years. Why would anybody who knows anything about England's recent footballing "achievements" imagine that we would walk through any qualification?

it's a gauge of a nation's football because there's no way on earth that a country like england with its population, resources, development and infrastructure should ever be even remotely competing with a nation that's about twenty years old and is the size of sheffield.

if england finish behind tiny montenegro in this group and are forced into the potential lottery of the play-offs it would be utterly disastrous and ridiculous. and the manager would have to go. would you agree?

and i know plenty about england's qualification history thanks, and have watched them plenty too. you just sound like you're making the same old excuses which frankly, again given england's league, money and population, shouldn't exist. but you're right i'm not surprised that they're not walking through this qualification. but that's got less to do with history than it has with the clown in charge of the team.

You should know that the bungling FA has been a major part in the ruination of english football for years. To blame the incumbant manager for years of mis management by our governing body, based largely on a personal dislike of the man is simply not a logical way viewing things.

[carmine]

I lived in England for fifteen years and found the majority of people there to be very friendly and pleasant.

Most had a sense of humour too.

Nuff said.

So would you agree you would have to be a total retard to find any amusement in this thread if you were english?

[rixalex]

don't think it's a difficult group but nor do i think it's "such an easy group". I don't think there are any "easy groups" these days at international level, and i don't know what quoting population figures has to do with it.. as if that is a gauge of a nation's football.

I also can't help wondering how many England games you have watched in the last 20 or 30 years. Why would anybody who knows anything about England's recent footballing "achievements" imagine that we would walk through any qualification?

it's a gauge of a nation's football because there's no way on earth that a country like england with its population, resources, development and infrastructure should ever be even remotely competing with a nation that's about twenty years old and is the size of sheffield.

if england finish behind tiny montenegro in this group and are forced into the potential lottery of the play-offs it would be utterly disastrous and ridiculous. and the manager would have to go. would you agree?

and i know plenty about england's qualification history thanks, and have watched them plenty too. you just sound like you're making the same old excuses which frankly, again given england's league, money and population, shouldn't exist. but you're right i'm not surprised that they're not walking through this qualification. but that's got less to do with history than it has with the clown in charge of the team.

There is a big difference between what a team should be achieving and what a team is able to achieve, a big difference between where a club should be at and where a club is at. As a Liverpool supporter, you should be able to appreciate that.

To a casual observer, knowing only that Liverpool are one of the biggest clubs in the world, they might think that Liverpool not challenging to win the Premier League title would constitute a massive failure. They might think that a club like Liverpool should be walking into Champions League qualification, playing against teams like Wigan, Stoke and Reading, teams that they might not even of heard of. Speak to an actual Liverpool supporter on the other hand, someone who knows what challenges the club faces, knows not where the club is at now, not where the club was years ago, or where a club like Liverpool is supposed to be, and they would have very different expectations and a very different idea of what constitutes success and what constitutes massive failure.

I didn't expect England to walk through qualification, and i didn't think the group England was in was such an easy group. Montenegro are no mugs and nor are some of the other national teams in the group, and rattling off population figures or resources figures really does not mean much at all, because if all it took to become successful was a load of people and a load of money, world football would be very easy to predict. Just look at Belgium right now. OK, they haven't had the chance to show us what they can do as a team yet, but the quality of players they have been producing has been outstanding, and what is the population of Belgium? There are so many factors involved here, and stating the because one country has ten times more people, they should be better, is so simplistic it is just silly. Makes a good tabloid headline though i do admit.

As far as Roy is concerned, he has been in charge all of 14 games now. In league terms, about a third of a season. The team he has, is a mix of players either on the uphill slope or on the downhill slope. I don't think there are many who are right at the peak of their career. Put it this way, it's certainly not the best England squad i have ever seen. Roy's stats so far, are that he has lost one game, and in his first competition, for which he had virtually no time to prepare, he took us to a quarter final. Don't know about you, but that is, save for one semi final, about as far as i have ever seen England progress in a competition, so he has already done as well as the vast majority of England managers since the war. And he has already done as well as his predecessor, the tactical mastermind, did after he had 4 years trying to get things right.

Has he made a tit of himself? Certainly yes he has. Does he have a lot to prove? Of course. Should he get the sack if England don't qualify? Possibly yes, but personally i am more of the mind to have a go at seeing what a bit of stability might do. Constantly chopping and changing, and spending the millions of pounds that involves, hasn't brought us success so far, let's try something different. No knee jerk reactions. Give the man time. Stop expecting overnight solutions to a problem that has been ongoing for decades and decades.

[carmine]

If the size of the population is so damn important and a justification to suceed why are New Zealand the best rugby union nation in the world?

OK. so now everyone is conpletely aware that its not at all about the population perhaps the english football detrtactors might take a look at the real reason for failure which lays at the doorstep of the FA, and no end of bashing RH will change it. He's far from a great manager but he is english, he has a passion for the national side and he's gehuinely doing his best.

Anyway what are you worrying about you know england will get knocked out fairly early so your dreams will be answered. Its jhust so very sad that the other home nations spend more time having a pop at England than discussing their own miserable inept failures.

Edited March 31, 2013 by carmine

[StevieH]

don't think it's a difficult group but nor do i think it's "such an easy group". I don't think there are any "easy groups" these days at international level, and i don't know what quoting population figures has to do with it.. as if that is a gauge of a nation's football.

I also can't help wondering how many England games you have watched in the last 20 or 30 years. Why would anybody who knows anything about England's recent footballing "achievements" imagine that we would walk through any qualification?

it's a gauge of a nation's football because there's no way on earth that a country like england with its population, resources, development and infrastructure should ever be even remotely competing with a nation that's about twenty years old and is the size of sheffield.

if england finish behind tiny montenegro in this group and are forced into the potential lottery of the play-offs it would be utterly disastrous and ridiculous. and the manager would have to go. would you agree?

and i know plenty about england's qualification history thanks, and have watched them plenty too. you just sound like you're making the same old excuses which frankly, again given england's league, money and population, shouldn't exist. but you're right i'm not surprised that they're not walking through this qualification. but that's got less to do with history than it has with the clown in charge of the team.

You should know that the bungling FA has been a major part in the ruination of english football for years. To blame the incumbant manager for years of mis management by our governing body, based largely on a personal dislike of the man is simply not a logical way viewing things.

i couldn't agree more about the FA, they're a disgrace and unfit for purpose. i'm not blaming the hodge for years of mismanagement, nor for his appointment - the FA did that, seeing him as a 'safe' choice who wasn't foreign and wasn't harry redknapp.

i am blaming hodgson for the current managing down of expectations though. this england squad, made up of players from top clubs in the world's most lucrative league, should be performing much better and should be winning this group. capello and eriksson waltzed through qualifying competition, hodgson's struggling behind a nation of 600,000 people (sorry, but population is relevant) and is managing expectations down by talking about maybe needing the playoffs to qualify. the FA's a farce, roy's a joke. so in that way i feel sorry for the fans who feel as passionately about the england team as they do their club sides. it's simply being mismanaged from top to bottom.

[rixalex]

i am blaming hodgson for the current managing down of expectations though. this england squad, made up of players from top clubs in the world's most lucrative league, should be performing much better and should be winning this group. capello and eriksson waltzed through qualifying competition, hodgson's struggling behind a nation of 600,000 people (sorry, but population is relevant) and is managing expectations down by talking about maybe needing the playoffs to qualify. the FA's a farce, roy's a joke. so in that way i feel sorry for the fans who feel as passionately about the england team as they do their club sides. it's simply being mismanaged from top to bottom.

Whatever daft barometer you wish to use for how well a country's national team should be performing, head count or anything else, at the end of the day, it was just an away draw, it wasn't a home thrashing, and qualifying is far from over, and England are still well placed with their fate in their own hands.

Qualifying is just about getting over the proverbial finish line. You don't get any extra points for being x number of points above everyone else. You either qualify or you don't, and once qualifying is over, it's soon forgotten and all that matters is how you perform in the competition. If you go out in the first round, nobody is going to say "well yes, but we did waltz through qualifying, doesn't that count for anything?"... because of course it doesn't.

All that matters is how you perform come competition time. Eriksson's high water mark was quarter finals, Capello's was second round. Roy has already equaled and surpassed what both of them respectively achieved, and he did it with a matter of weeks to prepare. So why not wait until qualifying is actually over first before writing him totally off?

[carmine]

Bit off topic but i will always remember Erikson agreeing with Beckham to pay him on the right side for the quarter final against Brazil. Now beckham had never been able to take the ball past Roberto Carlos and never actually did for that matterever in his career He has no pace and can't dribble which would be required to pass Carlos but no. a pacey wing was left on the bench. Dismal management.

Then there was Capello appailling decisions in South Africa. Just dreadful. Shaun Wright-Phillips must have been as surprised as the rest of us...

So my point is, if we do qualify, and for what its worth i think we will, i don't think the Hodge has much to live up to in "competition performance" compaired to the performances of those two managers because whilst i have isolated a couple of instances i think generally they were both very dog average and overpaid. Yes we'll probably be a bit slow, predictable and flat but who can honestly say those other two managers had us performing any better in finals? It seems to me that those two showed a lack of imagination at international level too, Erikson Mr "no plan B" in particular

Edited April 3, 2013 by carmine