A Few Words About Graphic Design

[camster]

From time to time the topic of Graphic Design and specificly "web design" come up in this forum and more often than not you read the same thing "everybody in thailand is a web designer". People often post questions like "can I come to Thailand and make living as a "web designer" and of course the awnser is "good luck". These common replies are often true but I would like to touch on why they are true.

First lets touch on the self imposed title of "web designer". What is a "web designer"? Have they designed the world wide web? No. Do they design spider webs? I suppose if they are spiders they do. This is probably the most abused word(s) just behind George Bush and his idea of "freedom". Someone who truly is capable of designing a website is also capable of designing a logo, a brochure, a poster, etc. When I hear someone call themselves a web designer It indicates to me that they have learned some html and maybe a little programming (or maybe not, theres lots of WYSIWYG programs out there) and are now capable of building a web page. Just because someone can build a web page does not make them a designer. I can build a wooden box, cut a square in it for a window, and splash some ugly paint on it, but that doesnt make me an architect nor do I go around passing out biz cards with the title "Architect". What I am saying is just beacause someone adds the word "designer" to their job title doesnt necessarily make it true.

So whats the big deal you ask. The big deal is that people who have absoutley no training or actual work experience as a Graphic Designer buy themselves a cheap computer and a couple of pirated software proograms from Pantip and lo and behold "I'm a web designer!" I would estimate about 90% of the Farang "web designers" fall in this category. The problem with this is that the industry has been flooded with these WEB BUIDERS. The next thing that happens is that these "web designers" now offer thier services for next to nothing to make up for the complete lack of talent or knowledge. In return this entices a small company to hire a "web designer". The "web designer" then builds a website that looks like a dogs breakfast. It's got spinning Visa cards, little animated bunnies jumping across the screen, and 8 different fonts with a bright magenta background that burns holes in your eyes. Now the client has paid for this piece of s**t and he's not happy. He says to himself "I coulda done that myself", and next time he does.

So now we have the market flooded with "web designers", the price has been driven down, and clients have now had a bad experience and dont want to hire any more desingers good or bad. Not only are the crappy "web designers" not getting any work but they have also pulled down the few who actually are qualified and have some talent.

So what am I getting at? If you own a business and need a real Graphic Designer there are a few guidelines you should follow:

Ask for qualifications

What type of training does the designer have if any? How much experience do they have? Can they design for print also such as brochures, posters, corporate identity. This is important because at some point anyone who wants their website to have success will have to support it with collateral print material (promo pieces, newspaper ads, posters, etc.) Who are their past and current clients? Can they supply references?

Ask for a portfolio

Do they have a porfolio of recent samples? What sepicifly did they work on (some people will put things in their portfolio even if they have only contributed to a piece in a very small and insignificant way). Can you contact any of the companies the work is done for?

Ask what you will get for the price

There is a specific process to acheiving a design that hits the target market and pleases the client. Usually this begins with pencil sketches or quick color comps to convey more than one idea to the client before going to the extent of designing the actual piece wether it's a poster, logo, or website. A true designer has the ability to convey beginning concepts through the use of pencil sketches and sometimes color added. If someone tells you they are going to jump right in and give you a built website before you even see any indication of what its' going to look like...well you can expect some unpleasent surprises.

If your hiring a graphic designer use caution, dont always go for the lowest price, and check out who you are hiring. If they call themselves a "web designer" I would be particularly leery.

As for the self proclaimed "web designers" you and everybody else would be better off if you went back to running your internet cafe or corner store or whatever it is you used to do.

I am not writing this to promote myself but rather set a few things straight and hit back at those who have stained the Graphic Design industry. As for my qualifications I have a degree in Visual Communications (Graphic Design and Illustration). I have worked as a freelance Graphic Designer for 18 years and have taught Graphic Design at an Acredited College for 6 years.

I would like to hear from other true Graphic Designers on this topic and I am sure I will hear from a few "web designers" who make millions of dollars and have nothing but fortune 500 clients...blah, blah, blah.

Thanks

[GuestHouse]

Someone who truly is capable of designing a website is also capable of designing a logo, a brochure, a poster, etc

There is a hole in that argument. Some of the most sucessful websites have been put together by people who have concentrated on other things, not brochures and not logos. TV might be a good example.

The fact is, anyone, and I mean anyone, with access to a computer, a small amount of capital can design a website - you don't even need any special software. - They are then, by definition - a web designer.

YOU DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW, NOBODY HERE KNOWS who is going to come up with the next big money making website - In the past months in the UK a school kid became a millionare selling advetising on a website at the pixel level.

HE HAD NO QUALIFICATION

NO PORTFOLIO

NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE

What he did have was A BL00DY GOOD IDEA

And he didn't waste time and effort trying to run down other people's efforts to make money in a FREE MARKET he just got on with what he wanted to do and MADE MONEY.

A Web designer is ANYONE who designs a website. PERIOD.

Edited February 11, 2006 by GuestHouse

[camster]

With all due respect Guesthouse your missing the point. I'm not denying theres people out there who have come up with money making websites without any design training or experience. I am sure with the millions of websites out there a few self made websites with wicked ideas and a great website marketer(s) behind them will rise to the top. You can have a great looking website but if its not marketed properly it will be useless, and inversely if you have a really, really, bad looking website but is at the top of the search engines it also will probably be useless (of course again it depends on the idea). These are completely seperate issues.

What I am saying is just because someone can BUILD a website doesnt mean they can DESIGN a website. And to promote and portray ones self for profit, without any training or real work experience in the field is quite frankly negligent and fraudulant. Someone applying paint to their bedroom does not make them an interior designer.

Where on earth did you get the idea I was running down other peoples efforts who are trying to make money? What I am trying to do here is bring to light some of the problems of the industry and also, to offer some advice to FREE ENTERPRISE entreprenuers on what to look for if they do want to hire a graphic designer. I have no problem with someone building their own website and making a trillion dollars. Even if its the ugliest thing on the web. What I am talking about is unqualified people passing themselves off as something they are not qualified to be, and ultimately leaving a black eye on the industry. Period.

[rainman]

i heard FrontPage can make you a web designer.

[camster]

i heard FrontPage can make you a web designer.

it can. you should join the army of other people who have already discovered that it works!

[GuestHouse]

I still don't see any sense in your post.

There are no restrictions to anyone starting up as a webdesigner, there never will be and I can't see there is any sense in having any controls.

It's the old "people in an industry would love to control entry to the industry ... all in the best interest of Jo Public"

It's not going to happen, the 'secrets' of web design are not secrets.

----

And here's the rub.

-----

Good webdesigners would, I presume, not need to worry about this untrained, unskilled competition.

Surely good webdesign stands out and sells itself.

[Belfastboy]

hey camster...im a graphic designer myself...i design graphics for TV but come from a design print background..

i agree with the camster.....most so called web designers are actually website builders ie..java,html side of things....

i think camster is coming from the asthetic point of things....which i wud agree with...

but i guess it depends on the client...if he/she is happy with a quick fix site....no problems..but if u want a quality designed site u have to get a decent designer not a html guy...or java..that just links the site together...

its like clothes i guess....u can buy cheap fix clothes in asda...but if u want quality designed clothes then armani is a better option...

are u in bangkok camster? just wondering what the field is like there?....im moving there soon...

i kinda have a business idea for when i do go there...wudnt mind running it by u camster...

[camster]

Guethouse why do you keep implying I'm saying things that I'm not saying at all.

"There are no restrictions to anyone starting up as a webdesigner, there never will be and I can't see there is any sense in having any controls."

I NEVER said there should be any controls, and never said there ever would be.

"It's the old "people in an industry would love to control entry to the industry ... all in the best interest of Jo Public"

Where did you get this from??? I have absolutely no problem with a young talented, knowledgeable Graphic Designer going out there and making a good living for themself. In fact I am happy for the industry and the young whipper snapper. Do you think I teach Graphic Design to young people to keep them out of the industry?? Get real.

"It's not going to happen, the 'secrets' of web design are not secrets."

Did I metion something about web design secrets? What secrets are you talking about. I like the way you put quotations around 'secrets' like its a direct quote from me.

Are you even reading the same post. You obviously dont know a thing about the industry and are only here to stir the pot. If you dont have an intelligent response that adresses directly what I have posted than beat it and go play with your "web designer" program. AND STOP MISQUOTING ME!!!

[camster]

Belfast Boy is right about the level of design someone may need or be able to afford. Really if someone cant afford a good designer they are better off just having a plain website with simple text links and a few images with all the content in a nice layout.

I live in Phuket. It is difficult to make it here as a designer because there is lots of Thai talent and they will do the work for cheap., cheap, cheap. Secondly 90 per cent of the businesses are small mom and pop operations operating on a day to day basis just trying to survive.

Of course guesthouse has put his 2 cents in and implied that I'm just pissed off because I have no talent and therefor no work. And of course guesthouse has absolutely nothing to base this on. I have a few clients in Thailand that give me regular work but the bulk of my work comes from existing clients in Canada where I come from, and also from an agent in the US who gets me some projects from there. Really I dont look for much work in Thailand, I'm better off promoting to businesses abroad. From what I gather Bangkok is a little better with a much larger base of corporations to draw on. But for the most part it would be difficult for a Farang designer to make a decent living there.

I'd love to hear your idea Belfast Boy, you can PM me to discuss further if you like.

[ThaiPauly]

Replying from a Website "Buyers" point of view, anyone who pays out up front for a site to be built must be mad.

I have had websites built for my company in the past, and I never paid anything until I had solid evidence that I would be satisfied with the end result, so go away put in 2 or 3 days designing your presentation and come back to me.

If I like what I see, and the price is right then I would proceed. If I did not like it, I would not.

This is only common business sense

[DegenFarang]

""everybody in thailand is a web designer""

Thats what I like to hear! I'm not, I'm looking to hire a good one, and it sounds like this here is a buyers market!

[email protected] and kindly include all of the original posters questions answered in your email, or you reply will be simply what he asked for copied and pasted

WD

[girlx]

Someone who truly is capable of designing a website is also capable of designing a logo, a brochure, a poster, etc

this is a common and frustrating misconception. web design and graphic design are two totally different fields. most real web designers don't know anything about print design, and why should they if they have been concentrating on their web design? of course it is nice to find an employee who knows both, but it shouldn't be expected.

i have been in the industry for 8 years, and you are right, there are lots of people who learn HTML and Photoshop and call themselves web designers. that does not mean they can't design websites though. if they can't, they will quickly learn this and fall by the wayside. why not take a shot at it? of course, if you are the buyer, you should request samples, references, examine their portfolios, and get some idea of what sort of approach they take before hiring them.

FYI a web designer would generally have these skills:

photoshop to edit pictures, illustrator to create graphics, flash for animation, logo, banner, and icon design, knowledge of usability standards, basic knowledge of HTML. better to hire someone who has taken classes rather than someone who picked it up on their own but don't dicount people who really seem to have talent.

[John_Betong]

Hi Camster,

You have certainly set the ball rolling with this topic and I thought I would add my two Satangs worth to what I think is a “web designer”.

Web design to me has evolved rapidly since it first started such a short-time ago (< twenty years?) and it is now diverse. In the good old days the web master was also the designer and this accounted for many functional websites that were not aesthetic and difficult to navigate. Also at the time the hardware was restricted to text based mono screens without sound.

The hardware and software are evolving and now incorporate umpteen different languages and techniques. The web is now spreading to mobile phones and portable devices which are capable of braille and speech.

A company I know quite well realise that the graphical front end is a small but very essential feature. The company has a team of graphic designers that can quickly knock up several graphic designs in a day of front end screens. Flash and Action Script take a little longer. Once a particular design has been accepted then the real work begins!

A team of designers then analyse the task and select the best tools for the job. Some customers want:

- simple Html package with graphics.

- off the shelf CMS packages

- interactive language learning and management systems

- extensive database functionality with shopping carts or SMS

- multi-media that will also run on a stand alone VCD/CD system

- custom built in bulleting board, email and instant message system

- live wireless, video surveillance and conferencing

- 10 year old Window client/server packages to accept and validate data from any Internet cafe'.

The list goes on and daily increases as to how the customers want to utilise the web features.

So a “web designer” to me is indeed a designer that can use the most cost effective tools to satisfy a customer's needs.

Cheers,

John_Betong

[girlx]

i should mention also re: the last post, that a web designer is a specific focus. anything related to programming or building a site should be relegated to a web developer. generally the process flows like this: sales > project manager > information architect > designer > developer, with each handing off to the next person. the trend in companies now is to try and combine two or more of those roles into one position. there are people (like myself) who can do this, however a professional organization will realize that each aspect is it's own specialty/focus, and combining positions like that detracts from the overall quality of what is produced in the long run.

also thaipauly, it is quite normal for a freelance designer to ask for some portion of the pay up front. unfortunately it is all too common, especially in thailand, for businesses to disappear once they have their site and not pay up. it is important to have a signed contract stating all the terms from the beginning.

Edited February 12, 2006 by girlx

[~G~]

Let's start by saying that it seems as if OP is having some competition problems (or maybe just seeking some publicity?). There will always be cheap or unprofessional competition in this field, I don't see a reason to worry about it, or to try to educate the readers. It is just like any other field, you need to check the service provider in advance. Those who just want the get the cheapest solutions are more than welcome to go that way.

As for "Web Designer" vs "Graphic designer", although our graphic designers have experience in Print as well, I would not reject a person who only did graphic design for web, if that is the job description. There are some issues in Print which do not exist in web design and vice versa. For example, browser compatability or graphic files sizes are issues in Web Design, while working with high-res photos and maintaining correct colors and layout from the screen to the paper are issues in Print. Even the hardware required is different. One can use a standard PC to design a web page, but it will be really painful not to have enough resources while designing on a big poster.

As for the policy of not paying any deposit in advance, it indicates lack of trust in the service provider, in this case you might as well stay away altogether. In big projects your time might be more valuable than the cost, if you don't trust the service provider why waste time waiting for a crappy result?

Edited February 12, 2006 by ~G~

[GuestHouse]

Let's start by saying that it seems as if OP is having some competition problems

At last.

I'm an engineer, everyone and there dog calls themselves an engineer. I gave up b1tching about that years ago when it was obvious to me that what mattered was that I get paid a regular income as an engineer.

I pride myself on my own skills knowledge, I don't give a toss what other people do or claim in respect of being an engineer. It doesn't matter.

It is irrelevant.

If you are good enough you'll get work.

If you are not, you'll fall by the wayside, squeezed out by the competition

Edited February 12, 2006 by GuestHouse

[camster]

Some good comments here, I agree a designer can certainly specialize in designing websites only and is certainly an advantage. I guess what I'm trying to say is a true designer has knowledge and skill in the basics of good design such as color, contrast, spatial depth, composition, typography. These principles in design can be applied to the web, print, or other media. Someone with these skills can easily adapt them to programs for print such as Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, or for the web such as Dreamweaver or host of other programs. Or if one choose can be applied directly to building a website directly into code. Ultimately the ideal situation is to have a designer creating the front end or skin of the website while a programmer creates the backend and makes sure it functions properly. In the end regardless of the media used, a good designer will have these basic skills. What I have been seeing is a lot of people who certainly are very good at building websites but clearly dont have these basic skills, passing themselves off as "designers".

There seems to be a misconception here that the reason I posted this thread is because I have a problem with competition. I suppose people will form their own opinions based on absolutely no knowledge of me whatsoever and regardless of what I say. I have purposely left my website url out of here so that I'm not accused of using this thread to promote myself or obtain personal gain. Back to one of the very first things I said. There have been a lot of comments on thaivisa in the past that "everyones a web designer" or something similiar to that topic. I was simply trying to analyze why this is happening and at the same time offer some advice on choosing a designer for web or print. Is that so bad!

[girlx]

I guess what I'm trying to say is a true designer has knowledge and skill in the basics of good design such as color, contrast, spatial depth, composition, typography.

agree with this, and some people really believe they are designers so what can you do if they really suck? tell them to do a sample project (one page), and you'll pay them like 1000b either way. after that you can send them an email saying you prefer to do it yourself. it's too bad you have to go through that but it happens in every profession.

[Belfastboy]

i disagree with the comments made referring designers as same as engineers....surely the engineer solves the problem one way or another and it comes down to the quality of the work, with design being a 'talent' based on an individuals skills, just like a painter....two people can paint the same landscape...one will have talent and paint it asetically pleasing to the eye, while the other will struggle to grasp depth, colour, imagination, detail, emotion etc etc....

the same applies to all design principles.....

yes anyone can rip off other websites or designs but for a real individual website or whatever aspect of design it comes down to talent and imagination mixed with skill, flair and a passion.

its not like an ordinary job like an engineer or plumber....where its a task to be completed, yes skillfully but in the end the same result will appear, depending on the quality.

real design is based on culture, breaking the rules, starting new trends, problem solving etc etc....

example. do u think if leonardo da vinci had been born in this era his work as a web designer wud be similar to that of a web developer or someone who links a few pages together?....

u can spot talent a mile off.....the rest is just fake

[FlyingDutchman]

Graphic design ? ...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=640286

... Camster ? ...

Thése are graphic's, mr.Camster

What do you care about ? Show me your web-design's ?

I've made an 'instant web site' [WYSIWYG] program. You need not to have any experience, just upload images and change a link-address for some images you want to link. It has 'unlimited' pages and can make anyone a web designer; what's wrong with that ? You want everybody to reinvent the wheel ? If somebody is a good designer, even if he/she uses WYSIWYG, they will earn money, if not, they won't. Get real, mr.Camster. What happened to you ? Got milked out by a business-man ? ...

[camster]

I'll repeat myself for your benefit FyingDutchman. Anyone can use a WYSIWYG program to BUILD a website. This does not mean they have designed it any way. And whats all that crap at the beginning of your post supposed to mean anyway.

[camster]

Why do I care anyway? Once again someone speculating why I have started this post.

I dont like competition.

I dont want young people in the business.

I've been burned by a businessman.

I dont have work and I'm pissed off.

Blah Blah Blah.......

It doesnt matter what profession your in, be it Engineering, Design (of some aspect), Doctor, anybody who has spent years in career and is passionate about their career, would defend it if its being dragged down by people who are untrained in the resepective career. I've explained why I think the field of Design is getting a bad reputation and why I care. If you didnt see it go back and read THE ENTIRE THREAD before you make off the cuff remarks and personal attacks.

The great thing about forums is that people speak whats on their mind. The bad thing about forums is theres no accountability to saying stupid things.

If you have something constructive to say, or have an even slightly intelligent argument to my views then by all means say it. If you want to make personal attacks I obviously cant stop you but I'm done wasting time and effort replying to any of that crap.

[zoltannyc]

Personally I would rather use the term “web site design” instead of “web design” and web sites are coming in different shapes and sizes therefore web site design may relate to

- graphics design,

- web site layout and navigation design,

- front end programming, HTML, DHTML, XHTML, CSS, JavasSript, Flash etc.,

- back-end programming (depends on the complexity can be up to “n” tiers) but most often one needs someone for programming the business logic (a middle tier) in such as Java server pages, J2EE, .NET etc. and database programming (for the data tier) in most cases it is done in one of the flavors of SQL (T-SQL, PL-SQL, ANSI-SQL)

I’m running a web site for a statistical organization with around 10,000 pages and 10 databases the largest database is around 300GB and contains 1billion time series records.

(I have a team of programmers, I’m involved in deciding standards, platforms, programming style etc., earlier I designed a few websites, however I would not consider myself a web designer)

When it comes to hiring people I agree with Camster that there are a lot of people that that are overstating their competencies. There are very few people who really know how to design complex websites with more than just static pages.

But this phenomenon is not unique to “web designers” in each profession you have real professionals and you have lemons…just think about contractors…how many times you hired some one that claimed to be a taxi driver and did not know where are you going… or so called interpreters that they don’t know the target language….or people who can change a light bulb and claims that they are electricians…

Don’t be upset Camster - we live in interesting times, with all the tools given some people may design some nice looking simple sites essentially that’s why Internet and computing becoming more and more popular in every country.... I guess we need to educate people (customers) that how to hire so called web designers, how to check them, what documentation to require, etc.

[Crushdepth]

I agree with the general sentiment that the right people don't get hired for the job very often. I see that mostly as a problem with the clients though - they usually don't really know what they want, or appreciate the different skills that are involved, so they hire the wrong people.

I don't agree that being a good graphic designer will make you a good web designer though - to me it requires a range of skills:

1. Planning / site architechture / client management..

2. Programming/database (name your poison).

3. Graphic design.

People that are good at any one of these things are usually not so good at the other two so I prefer to look for a small firm that has all of these capabilities on staff, rather than try and find a freelancer that can do it all because such people tend to be expensive.

These days it *is* possible for a relative novice to 'build' a quite sophisticated website with very little knowledge of html, programming or graphic design, by using some of the excellent open source content management systems that are available like XOOPS, Mambo, Xaraya etc. These basically provide a flexible framework for creating 1, and give you 2 and a lot of 3 out of the box.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Crushdepth

[FlyingDutchman]

Thése are graphic's ...

... And whats all that crap at the beginning of your post supposed to mean anyway.

I mean Graphic Design has nothing to do with Web Site Design. A Web Site Designer uses Graphics to give the site a certain look and perhaps to create a useful GUI (General User Interface). More, a Web Site Designer has also have to be a [good] Analyst, to be able to create a Web Site that has some useful features. And he/she makes it all visible through Programming the Web Site. So, there are more things involved then the Graphic's you've mentionned and I remain to my standpoint : There are good and bad Web Site Designers, just as there are bad lawyers and doctors. That's life ... and if you have a bad lawyer or doctor, that's more damaging then a bad Web Site Designer. With a bad Web Site Designer, you can look at it's previous work and deny them the contract.

[camster]

Thats probably where the problem lies. The line is blurred between what a website designer is. It could mean you design the overall look or skin of a site. Or it could mean you design the infrastructure of a website meaning it's functuality, database(s) and other technical aspects of a site. And please dont get me wrong I'm not slamming those who are good programmers, they obviously are integral to creating an efficient website that has clean code and is fast and has great functionality. The line is further blurred by the availabilty of design templates, royalty free images, etc. which are available for for programmers or anyone building a website. And for designers there is as mentioned before, content management systems such as Mambo or Joomla to add functionality to a site. What gets me is people who dont do either well. So if a website designer is someone who is a programmer and builds the infrastructure of a site then yes that is completely seperate from graphic designer. But if a website designer who is someone who makes the site beautiful by using good layout, typography, graphics, etc. then it is directly related to graphic design. I guess it all comes down to how you percieve the definition of "website designer".

[tom yum goong]

I agree with the poster above that you often don't get people who are good programmers/code writers who are also good graphic designers.

Personally, I would much rather have someone who knew what they were doing in such things as usability, information architecture, browser compatibilty, html code writing, programming etc. than someone who could design a pretty web page and then slice it up into a table layout.

Unfortunately most web designers in Thailand seem to belong to the latter group and are not moving with the times.

Take a look at the most successful websites in the world and see how "pretty" they are. Most are very functional but are great for their intended purpose.

[nagasaki]

I agree with the poster above that you often don't get people who are good programmers/code writers who are also good graphic designers.

Personally, I would much rather have someone who knew what they were doing in such things as usability, information architecture, browser compatibilty, html code writing, programming etc. than someone who could design a pretty web page and then slice it up into a table layout.

Unfortunately most web designers in Thailand seem to belong to the latter group and are not moving with the times.

Take a look at the most successful websites in the world and see how "pretty" they are. Most are very functional but are great for their intended purpose.

i have been an applications programmer for 25 years, its about the interpretation of business logic into understandable code. its a functional and technical discipline that does relies on good technique to a degree.

I can not do website design, yes i know the technichalities and have created a website, but a good web designer needs an artistic streak, and can think in visual concepts, it is not that a programmer can't do this, but i am one that can't

if you have someone from this kind of background and they have an aptitude in the technichalies and can learn these, or at least can communicate them to someone who does understand the technicalities then these probably make the best web designers

[sting01]

There is several Nessies in that forum , the bargirls and the webdesigners to name some of them. Lol

I work in the IT business in Thailand since 2003. I do NOT work for local clients for several reasons :

1) Or they are cheap farangs who need simply to have a cyber business to help for the visa approval. Anyway those people do not care how the site will work, but only if Ti Ruk love the colors and the animations. It look for me like wasting time and energy for people who have best to buy MSOffice (120 bht in Fortune) and do it by themself.

2) Mostly the problem arrive when the color chart, suddently because someone have buy a new laptop, the color choosed do not fit anymore. So the blue that should be more blue but on the same time less blue I do not know, I know well a Pantone color, but what do I care if the new TFT screen do not display the color as the good old LCD. A pantone is always a pantone.

3) As there is a whole bunch of so called 'Khao San Road' designer, the market is a low value market and in more some people refuse to pay, and I got one some years ago who proposed to drive me to the police as I certainly did not have any visa. Wrong guess, he had not only to pay but also have to apologise in the police station. But that also give a point on the hight moral value on some buyers.

So , as I consider my self as competent , i prefered since 2003 to work as remote freelance. There, no problem, if you are correct , you have work, if you are not, you have no work.

So for both , buyers and web designers, it's better to rely on the handfull of websites specialised on the hiring of freelance coders : REnt A coder, Scriptlance, Freelance ....

A coder as I will always get money , and work, as long as you are competent in your specialisation, and a buyer will be able to choose a coder that have a verifiable background.

That is my small experience as farang, IT engineer, living in thailand since 2002/01.

[~G~]

Thats probably where the problem lies. The line is blurred between what a website designer is.

No, the problem is that you don't get enough work or are not appreciated as you'd like to be. Handle that instead of going on and on about semantics.