Thailand Has No Problem With New Chinese Passport: Thai Foreign Ministry

[samjaidee]

Even if armed conflicts were to flare up in the South China Sea, regarding China's over-reaching imperialism, Thailand (and Cambodia) would sit on their hands on the sidelines. So happens: the disputed islands in the S.China Sea are, at a minimum, twice the distance from China than they are from the other countries in contention. The smartest course of action would be for all parties to declare the disputed islands as 'World Protected Sites' (or some nomenclature like that), and have them off-limits to commercial and residential activity, similar to Antarctica. Trouble is, Asians can't perceive of that. There's nothing in their heritage or culture which fathoms sharing or protecting properties. In the Americas and Europe, there are 18 shared 'Cultural Heritage Sites.' In Asia: zero.

Same could apply to Preah Vihar temple ruins, but again, it's too far-fetched for Asian consciousness to fathom.

I'm not disputing the number of shared Cultural Heritage Sites in Europe and the Americas but would you mind listing them to satisfy my curiosity.

Thank you.

[Morakot]

Thailand is a colony of China!

Tributary states are not normally referred to as colonies.

[Johpa]

Thailand is a colony of China!

To use an older Thai term, more like the southerm most Monthorn. Many of us still remember when Thailand refused a visa to the Dalai Lama in deference to the Thai government's overlords in Beijing. But of course we must respect the post-modernist argument that Thailand is, at heart, a multi-ethnic state and thus any suggestion of Chinese domination must be rejected out of political correctness.

Chaiyo (to use another somewhat dated Thai term)

[Time Traveller]

When did China start needing to get approval from Thailand about the design of Chinese passports?

[Morakot]

Territorial disputes extending into the realm of cartography.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Morakot

[dcutman]

The area that China are claiming is quite frankly rediculous

No to mention it is not any area which Thailand claims as theirs. So, for anyone to suggest that Thailand should make some sort of political statement against one of their largest trading partners for the sole benefit of a couple small and poor countries is akin to wanting to them to shoot themselves in the foot. They are doing the right thing by staying at of this issue.

India is a small poor country? Last I checked there was 1.3 billion people in India and a fare amount of trade with Thailand as there is with the other small and poor countries mentioned in this article. Not to mention the fact that China is is trying to highjack these disputed area's.

[Payboy]

Something tells me Thailand's going to side with the party they think is currently winning the argument, by hook or by crook. Doesn't mean they won't turn their back if and when the tide turns.

Remember WW2?

Edited November 29, 2012 by Payboy

[Nisa]

Nisa mentions that 'most Chinese families came to Thailand 400 to a 1,000 years ago'. I think that's a misconception. Granted, some families from China first came here during those hundreds of years ago, but the majority quite likely came within the past decades.

Since 1947 (near 7-decades ago) Thailand's immigration rules only allow for up to 100 Chinese (or any other country) immigrants a year. There are currently about 10 Million (14 to 15%) Thai Chinese and about 30 Million people in Thailand claiming to have Chinese ancestry. At the turn of the last century they made up about 5% of the population and the last big influx of Chinese were around 1-million during the 1920s. representing over 12% of the population by the 30s. So, it would seem you are wrong about the majority coming in the last decades. I may also be wrong as well regarding most being from families who came over 400 ago but don't want to start trying to factor in birth rates and stuff ... bottom line is the large majority have been here multiple generations.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Nisa

[Thai at Heart]

Nisa mentions that 'most Chinese families came to Thailand 400 to a 1,000 years ago'. I think that's a misconception. Granted, some families from China first came here during those hundreds of years ago, but the majority quite likely came within the past decades.

Since 1947 Thailand's immigration rules only allow for up to 100 Chinese (or any other country) immigrants a year. Given there are about 10 Million Thai Chinese and about 30 Million people in Thailand claiming to have Chinese ancestry , it would seem you are wrong. The most cursory of research will show you that vast majority of Thai-Chinese have been here for multiple generations.

The major influx was from 1825(4% of population) to 1910, at the end of which point in 1910, the Chinese population was about 10% of the total population in Thailand.

http://books.google.co.th/books?id=xEMsg-FkbJIC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=Immigration+wave+in+thailand+from+china&source=bl&ots=KVp3Xw1dQW&sig=Z5h0ZqBS_jOvEMaWbNMLa9skdQg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FgG3UIaOCM_qrQfP_YCoBA&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Immigration%20wave%20in%20thailand%20from%20china&f=false

There was another spurt in 1948 because of the revolution in China.

[Nisa]

The area that China are claiming is quite frankly rediculous

No to mention it is not any area which Thailand claims as theirs. So, for anyone to suggest that Thailand should make some sort of political statement against one of their largest trading partners for the sole benefit of a couple small and poor countries is akin to wanting to them to shoot themselves in the foot. They are doing the right thing by staying at of this issue.

India is a small poor country? Last I checked there was 1.3 billion people in India and a fare amount of trade with Thailand as there is with the other small and poor countries mentioned in this article. Not to mention the fact that China is is trying to highjack these disputed area's.

You are right but the point being is that it is not Thailand's fight and compared to China, India is fairly insignificant when it comes to trade. I don't believe it even makes the top ten for imports or exports from Thailand but bet you trade between China and India rates considerably higher. Again, this is not an issue Thailand has anything to gain by becoming involved within and their taking a non-involved approach seems kind of hard to argue with. Refusing to acknowledge an official and legal document from Chinese citizens would be a slap in the face to China while taking no action simply means they are staying out of the dispute. So, the point really is it is kind of hard to criticize this approach if Thailand interest is what is best for Thailand ... as it should be.

[bigbamboo]

Why should there be a problem?

Thailand is run by a Chinese/Thai clan who probably support it's claims anyway.

[Nisa]

Nisa mentions that 'most Chinese families came to Thailand 400 to a 1,000 years ago'. I think that's a misconception. Granted, some families from China first came here during those hundreds of years ago, but the majority quite likely came within the past decades.

Since 1947 Thailand's immigration rules only allow for up to 100 Chinese (or any other country) immigrants a year. Given there are about 10 Million Thai Chinese and about 30 Million people in Thailand claiming to have Chinese ancestry , it would seem you are wrong. The most cursory of research will show you that vast majority of Thai-Chinese have been here for multiple generations.

The major influx was from 1825(4% of population) to 1910, at the end of which point in 1910, the Chinese population was about 10% of the total population in Thailand.

http://books.google....m china&f=false

There was another spurt in 1948 because of the revolution in China.

Since the 30's (80 years ago) the Thai-Chinese population has only increased about 2%. The 1920s saw the last major wave were around 100,000 Chinese were coming a year. The population was just over 12% in the early 30s and is around 14% now ... without more data on birth rates in this group, it is impossible to know even if this 2% increase was largely due to immigration or birth. Bottom line, beyond this subject being beat to death, is that the vast majority have been here for multiple generations.

[Thai at Heart]

Since it isn't as though they didn't put Phuket or Samui on it, I can see their response as pretty non-descript. What a ridiculous thing for the Chinese to do anyway.

However, it does show how ridiculously split Asean is on these issues. I remember when living in Greece, if someone posted something to Macedonia from Greece or it was coming the other way, the Greeks would furiously scribble Former Yugoslavian Republic Of Macedonia on the address since they believe Macedonia was an area in Greece, so this is hardly unique.

[Nisa]

Is there any country outside those with first hand territory disputes over the map not accepting the passports? Even the US doesn't appear to be taking sides in this and only is expressing concern that the map is causing undue tension over the disputed areas.

[NanLaew]

It's all over oil and gas.

That and fierce nationalism. On a side note. Indonesia's Constitutional Court recently ruled that parts of their own oil and gas laws implemented in 2001 were unconstitutional and further dissolved their own State oil and gas licensing regulator BPMigas. The judges couched their ruling in the terms that Indonesia's natural resources, "shall be under the powers of the State and shall be used to the greatest benefit of the people." Rather grandiose but typically Asian in it's hidden agenda. I assume that there's some major Sino-Indonesian lobbying behind the Courts ruling.

The Chinese will be lapping that up as it appears that a country with a major claim in disputed territories cannot appear to agree on it's own internal laws. Indonesia has of course regularly kicked out or severely restricted the operational ability of foreign companies and exploration partners. As in Mexico where similar constitutional limitations severely restrict foreign investment and development in the oil and gas arena, Pertamina, the Indonesian state-owned energy giant is ill prepared to lead in an era where foreign-sourced and financed exploration technology is an essential tool in oil and gas development. However, I can easily see them signing agreements with one or two Chinese state-owned ventures while they decide who ultimately gets the kick backs.

Edited November 29, 2012 by NanLaew

[Thai at Heart]

Responding to neighbors’ concerns, China said on Wednesday that people should not read too much into the inclusion of the map in its passports. The aim of China’s new electronic passports is to strengthen its technological abilities and make it convenient for Chinese citizens to enter or leave the country.

“Too much should not be read into the issue of the maps in China’s new passports. China is willing to remain in touch with relevant countries and promote the healthy development of exchange between the Chinese and the outside world.” Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei told a daily news briefing.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/11/29/ri-concerned-about-map-new-chinese-passports.html

So I presume they wouldn't be too worried about changing the map to take them off then. Great statement

[Nisa]

The 8th page of the passport which contains the offending photo ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/24/india-china-passport-diplomatic-row

[KuhnPaen]

What's next? Mexican passports with Texas on its pages? Russia with Alaska on its passports? Thailand claiming Angkor Wat?

You wacky Chinese! Nice move. If this was prison, someone would be getting stabbed over a cup of Jello. This is how it all starts....wait, oh yeah...."Death by a thousand cuts."--that's the Chinese way. I almost forgot.

[Guest]

Yingluck is from a wealthy family of Chinese descent and I don't think she's having problem selling Thailand to China. Go figure!

[smedly]

The area that China are claiming is quite frankly rediculous

No to mention it is not any area which Thailand claims as theirs. So, for anyone to suggest that Thailand should make some sort of political statement against one of their largest trading partners for the sole benefit of a couple small and poor countries is akin to wanting to them to shoot themselves in the foot. They are doing the right thing by staying at of this issue.

I was simply stating what I said - I was not passing opinion of Thailands involvement

And if you all did a bit of historical research you would find that the whole of SE Asia is decended from China, if fact Japan was a originally a Chinese prison/criminal colony much like Australia was to the UK and Ireland - go figure

and I still say that area they are claiming as theirs is absolutly rediculous

[daninthai]

Thai at Heart - Your thinking is like saying an Italian American with a Pizza franchise is somehow how not as American as other Americans because he opened up shops in Italy or speaks Italian. Are people from Issan, whose language is closer to Laos than Thai less Tha? They have their own cultures too .. do they harbor some loyalty to Laos? And again what you think is Thai-Chinese is actually just Chinese in terms of shops because the overwhelming vast majority of Thai Chinese cannot speak any Chinese dialect and most have probably never been to China and neither has their parents or their parents parents. Try getting to know some Thais and Thai Chinese and simply do a little research. These folks are 100% Thai and have absolutely no allegiance to China and just because some of them are rich has nothing to do with anything nor does if they do business with Chinese or any other country or its citizens. Be it Whites, Jews, people of a certain heritage or light skinned ____ (fill in the blank) who may control a significant percentage of a countries wealth is one thing but to suggest in any way shape or form because of this they are not somehow real citizens or hold any allegiance to another country is both ignorant and insulting.

I know plenty of Thai Chinese, the god mother and probably longest standing friend I have in Thailand is Thai Chinese, as are many of my closer friends. I am part of the Chamber of Commerce of my local town, which is probably 95% Thai Chinese, have plenty of kids are friends of my kids who are Thai Chinese and have worked for two Thai Chinese companies in my time. Allegiance to China is not my issue in terms of stating that they would support China over Thailand. Do they do a lot of business with Chinese companies, yes, but that is linguistic and cultural connections.

They are Thai Chinese, that's it. Does an Italian American feel some kinship with Italy and his ancestry, most do. Does an Irish American feel some kinship with the Irish and his ancestry, most do.

Does this give them a slightly distinct part of their character that connects them with other people of the same group? Yes it does. Are they all Americans. Yes. Is the culture of a Mexican American the same as an Irish or Italian American? Nope. Thai's are not some homogenous group simply because they have the same passport. If and when I finally get my Thai passport, will that make me the same culturally as Thai Chinese, Laos-Thai, or Lanna Thai?

Now that would be stretching it too far wouldn't it.

If and when you get a Thai Passort or citizenship then you will still be an immigrant. Thai-Chinese have been around hundreds to thousands of years and near 1/2 of all Thais claim Chinese ancestry. You started this by trying to contradict my stating they were 100% Thai and didn't relate to being Chinese and if you want to back off from that is fine but lets not pretend you weren't trying to suggest they were not somehow 100% Thai. You my friend will never be 100% Thai in this regards as the vast majority of Thai Chinese whose language is solely Thai, were born here along with their parents and whose culture has become a part of Thai Culture. Be it Chinese New Year (which is a Thai public holiday along with numerous other Chinese origin holidays/festivals) or the week of fasting, these are things celebrated not just but Thai-Chinese but Thais in general.

I enjoy a good discussion, so let me butt in...

You said Thais didn't relate to being Chinese. Well, many do. I know many that do. Of course they consider themselves Thai also because that is their nationality, but ethnically they are Chinese. Many have no or very little Thai ancestry.

You are wrong in your statement that "Thai-Chinese have been around hundreds to thousands of years". That's simply not true. Hundreds, yes. Thousands, no. A lot of the Thai-Chinese I know had grandparents immigrate to Thailand. That's hardly 'hundreds of years'.

Lastly, you are wrong to say that Chinese new year is a public holiday in Thailand. It's not.

So, I declare Thai At Heart to be the winner!! Thai-Chinese do identify as being Chinese as-well-as being Thai.

[Payboy]

The way I see it, Thai-Chinese I have met were always a bit embarrassed to admit to their pure Chinese ancestry openly and were very ready to criticize everything Chinese, until China's recent economic boom. Now, the tide has turned and they speak of China and its ancient culture with a sense of pride. Every Thai-Chinese family that I know, wants their kids to study Mandarin, they take tours to visit the village(s) of their grand parents origin, and some have even tried to reestablish broken links or trace their distant relatives.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Payboy

[uptheos]

Thailand has no problem, because it wouldn't know what's on the map anyway!

[FarangTalk]

The Chinese immigration topic is interesting as they control Thailand economically, politically and culturally (choosing my words carefully there).

So it's not so much an example of assimilation and integration as they have actually colonised Thailand from within.

[Kilgore Trout]

I'd like to see Cambodia make a passport with a big picture of Preah Vihear and the land surrounding it on it, then see if the Thais take the same stance.

[americaninbangkok]

The Thai elite have a yen for China.

[americaninbangkok]

No to mention it is not any area which Thailand claims as theirs. So, for anyone to suggest that Thailand should make some sort of political statement against one of their largest trading partners for the sole benefit of a couple small and poor countries is akin to wanting to them to shoot themselves in the foot. They are doing the right thing by staying at of this issue.

The "small and poor countries" that are beating big ol' Thailand rice exports? Thailand is a complete pussy when it comes to the world stage. It only talks tough on two fronts:

- domestically: where the masses eat it up (think: N Korea)

- with Cambodia: where Cambodia equally gains from the visibility/prominence of another country even caring about it's existence

Thailand is not "staying out of this issue". By making a statement that it has no problem with the new passports, it is condoning China's behavior. That is a statement of Thailand's position on the issue.

[FarangTalk]

I'd like to see Cambodia make a passport with a big picture of Preah Vihear and the land surrounding it on it, then see if the Thais take the same stance.

It is already on their immigration cards.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Thaivisa Connect App

[maidu]

When did China start needing to get approval from Thailand about the design of Chinese passports?

I'm sure you know, this is more than a graphic design issue. It's an official and graphic statement of sorts of what they've been asserting for many moons. Speaking of hypotheticals, what if Vietnam came out with an official map which showed Hainan as one of Vietnam's islands. That would ruffle some sino-feathers. The tension in the S.China Sea can develop in baby steps, until there's a tipping point. As a comparison: The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was the spark that started WWI, but the background web of intrigue leading up to that 'spark' had been simmering for decades prior. What we're witnessing in the S.China Sea is a similar sort of simmering toward open conflict, though let's hope it's not at all as dire as a WW.

In my view (and I'm not alone on this) the Philippines and Vietnam have solid claims to the islands that lie off their territories (and which are a lot farther away from China, comparatively). I also think it's unlikely the dispute will be settled amicably. Thailand is siding with China though is not stating that plainly. Not vocalizing an opinion can count as an opinion. Plus, there will come a time when simply stating, "let's try to settle this amicably" just won't cut the mustard.

[slipperx]

Of course the Thai government does not have a problem with the new Chinese passport because both countries are equally corrupt, And besides have a thought about who rules the people in Thailand in the first place??? ....The whole major part of the political branch in Thailand… Who are they..... THAI CHINESE… the same ethnic group that brought corruption to the (former) land of smiles in the first place.... Do you get the idea????

Why would The Thai-(Chinese) government risk to lose their closest (CORRUPTION)-PARTNER and cause them to lose face…???

Ah yes a little side note, I'm not a historian and I don't want to sound like one, but I think Thailand and its people, I mean the original Thai people have been colonized, by the THAI-CHINESE ELITE, as the majority of them who got into power, is treating the ethnic Thai population as their b********es…

Thai Chinese relate to China the same way European Americans relate to their ancestors being from various countries in Europe with the exception that most American families immigrated within a few hundred years ago while most Chinese families came to Thailand 400 to a 1,000 years ago. In other words, Thai Chinese are Thai and they don't relate at all to being Chinese, nor do they have any loyalty to China or can they speak the languages of China..

So the Chinese did colonies the place in a manner of speaking and the culture of these Chinese / Thai is more Chinese than Thai methinks. Maybe that is a good thing but not sure. Whatever no excuse for printing maps on your passports to antagonism everyone. The simple answer would be for offended countries just refuse the Chinese using these passports entry. The Chinese would soon change them.

Edited November 30, 2012 by slipperx