Ms Windows 8 Warning

[BlackPuddingBertha]

The same people decided that Windows Millennium and Vista and Bing and Zune and God knows how many other failed and unloved MS inventions were also "the future".

[inthepink]

I quite like the metro interface, it's visually attractive and functional. However, I spend the vast majority of my time on the desktop as I have a lot of programs open at the same time. It's not until I go back to the start screen that I really think about the fact that I'm running Windows 8 and not 7. I did install the start8 button as I really missed a start button and the only time my PC goes off is when there is a power cut so I'm not really bothered about being presented with the start screen when I boot up. In fact when I am, I usually go into my mail, have a look at the news and weather before going into the desktop so I find it useful.

It really isn't that hard to get from the start screen to the desktop as others have already pointed out. Windows still offers a far more open ecosystem than OS X and I eventually tired of playing around with various Linux distros. I think it's still by far the best OS around.

it is annoying to have to hop from the desktop to the start screen to open an app that will take you back to the desktop though, which is why I installed start8. I tried classic shell but I thought it was quite ugly and I had no need for the rest of the functionality that it offers over a simple start button.

MS are trying something new - attempting to create an OS that is relatively uniform across phones, tablets and computers. There are bound to be a few niggles along the way but at least they are still innovating rather than simply offering incremental upgrades to keep sales ticking over, à la Apple.

Edited December 19, 2012 by inthepink

[BlackPuddingBertha]

MS are trying something new - attempting to create an OS that is relatively uniform across phones, tablets and computers.

Indeed they are, and that is the problem. One doesn't use a phone, table or desktop PC all in the same way. Not least because two of them have touchscreens and one has a mouse and keyboard. Who in his right mind would try to use a desktop app like InDesign on a smartphone or tablet by pointing his finger at it? Cant be done.

Metro is like Honda deciding that for uniformity's sake they are going to fit the same gearbox to all their vehicles, regardless of whether they have two or four wheels; a bloody stupid idea.

[Chicog]

I love WDI (they don't like it being called Metro any more) on the Lumia (see other thread), but BlackPuddingBertha has pretty well nailed it with the Honda analogy.

[inthepink]

MS are trying something new - attempting to create an OS that is relatively uniform across phones, tablets and computers.

Indeed they are, and that is the problem. One doesn't use a phone, table or desktop PC all in the same way. Not least because two of them have touchscreens and one has a mouse and keyboard. Who in his right mind would try to use a desktop app like InDesign on a smartphone or tablet by pointing his finger at it? Cant be done.

Metro is like Honda deciding that for uniformity's sake they are going to fit the same gearbox to all their vehicles, regardless of whether they have two or four wheels; a bloody stupid idea.

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

You can't install desktop apps on a smartphone, or a tablet running Windows RT for that matter, so I am not sure what you are going on about regarding InDesign to be honest. If you buy a tablet with an intel processor it will likely come with a keyboard and / or stylus so you don't have to use your fingers. Furthermore, unlike your Honda analogy, nobody is forcing you to use any particular app on any particular machine.

Edited December 19, 2012 by inthepink

[Chicog]

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

If that were true, Classic Shell, Start 8 and others would not be flying off the servers like they are.

[inthepink]

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

If that were true, Classic Shell, Start 8 and others would not be flying off the servers like they are.

People don't install a start button because the start screen is difficult to use.They install one because they do not want to jump from the desktop to the start screen and back again every time they open a new desktop application, as I already mentioned earlier. The popularity of start8 and classic shell is down to this fact, which is not relevant to whether the start screen itself (and metro apps) is easy to use on phones, tablets and PCs - which it is.

We are talking about two different things here - whether the start screen is easy to navigate and use from mobile and desktop machines, which I think it is, and whether it is easy to use when you are opening multiple desktop applications, which it isn't.

I agree that they should have left the start button where it was. However, when I am using metro apps I like the new interface and it isn't hard to use. It doesn't mix very well with the desktop view but if you do have a start button then you don't have to spend any time on the start screen apart from when you boot up. Then, all you need to do is press one button and you are on the desktop.

It isn't a perfect solution on desktop PCs but it isn't a huge problem either and I think they've made a good start as far as creating a common interface for opening applications on a variety of different devices is concerned.

Edited December 20, 2012 by inthepink

[Chicog]

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

If that were true, Classic Shell, Start 8 and others would not be flying off the servers like they are.

You're not really reading my posts are you? The fact that the start screen is easy to use on all types of devices is a point I was making in answer to the comment that designing a uniform OS for phones, tablets and PCs was like using the same gearbox in all models of cars, which it isn't.

The lack of a start button makes it slightly harder to open apps from the desktop view, (which is why I installed start8, as I said in my earlier post) but it doesn't make it difficult to use the start screen at all - you certainly don't need a start button if you are already on the start screen.

I think you're missing my point. Many people, like me, prefer a Start Menu to a Start Screen.

[hml367]

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

If that were true, Classic Shell, Start 8 and others would not be flying off the servers like they are.

You're not really reading my posts are you? The fact that the start screen is easy to use on all types of devices is a point I was making in answer to the comment that designing a uniform OS for phones, tablets and PCs was like using the same gearbox in all models of cars, which it isn't.

The lack of a start button makes it slightly harder to open apps from the desktop view, (which is why I installed start8, as I said in my earlier post) but it doesn't make it difficult to use the start screen at all - you certainly don't need a start button if you are already on the start screen.

I think you're missing my point. Many people, like me, prefer a Start Menu to a Start Screen.

To make something similar to a start button, right click on the task bar. Then open Toolbars. Create a New Toolbar and point it to a folder that you put whatever you want in. There is also a folder within windows already for Programs. You can add what you like in your own folder. The name shown on the Toolbar is the Folder name I think.

If this doesn't please you please just disregard instead of making more complaints.

MSPain

Edited December 20, 2012 by hml367

[Khun Jean]

hml367 don't bother. Dinosaurs will never evolve.

The fun thing about what making a new Toolbar is that you can call it START and put any shortcut in it that you want and organise them in folders the way you want. Much more flexible as the start button and a good way to organise.

The start button with its fixed layout was one of the most terrible things ever in every version of windows.

Always stripped that one as much as possibler in older versions.

At least it got better in editing it with the latest xp and 7.

Throwing away the startbutton but leaving the taskbar is in my opinion much better. And indeed with a new "toolbar" you can create your own start button with only the items in it what you want. Dinosaurs probably don't even know that exists. Still happily clicking with the left mouse and never find out many of the goodies under the right button.

The windows button + X will give quick access to all the system tools, another handy feature in win8 to keep those seperate from the rest and a good way to help someone while giving support.

I find myself using the windows key when wanting to start a program, very fast and it opens on the screen you are busy with (another of those little windows 8 thing that make live easier). My mail i put on the side effectively having another 'screen'.

The taskbar on both screens is another bonus, i could go on with many small things that speeds up and streamlines working on a pc. And i do lots of programming and designing on it. Apps i not care much about. If i look in the store i can maybe find 1 or 2 things that are nice the rest is just junk. The same is for iOS on my iPad (i never ever will install iTunes!!!!) and android on my Phone. Sure they have hundreds of thousands of apps. But if only a few are interesting the numbers are not really meaning full.

Windows 8 apps will soon have the best of the ios and android apps, the simple reason would be that those who made the apps will earn some easy extra bucks.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Khun Jean

[Pib]

The curious case of Windows 8 sales numbers: Link

[inthepink]

Not a very good analogy at all, in my opinion. The start screen and metro apps are very easy to use on desktop pcs, touchscreen laptops and tablets.

If that were true, Classic Shell, Start 8 and others would not be flying off the servers like they are.

You're not really reading my posts are you? The fact that the start screen is easy to use on all types of devices is a point I was making in answer to the comment that designing a uniform OS for phones, tablets and PCs was like using the same gearbox in all models of cars, which it isn't.

The lack of a start button makes it slightly harder to open apps from the desktop view, (which is why I installed start8, as I said in my earlier post) but it doesn't make it difficult to use the start screen at all - you certainly don't need a start button if you are already on the start screen.

I think you're missing my point. Many people, like me, prefer a Start Menu to a Start Screen.

I understand that, so do I when I am working on the desktop. However, I also like the start screen and metro apps and I think they work well on a range of devices. To say they don't is wrong basically. The functionality of the start screen and metro apps works very well on desktops and mobile devices. But... the start screen and desktop have not been integrated together perfectly.

I do agree the start button makes life easier when you are working on the desktop and that doesn't make me a dinosaur (as somebody else commented). If I am on the desktop writing something in word and I want to open Excel, why on earth would I want to go to the start screen, find the Excel tile and click on it, (or search for it by typing the name) only to be flung back onto the desktop. It's easier to do it all from the desktop and I agree with people who say that Microsoft have been a little premature in removing it.

However, they do listen to criticism so I wouldn't be surprised to see it make a comeback. When they brought out Visual Studio 2012 a lot of developers were not keen on the colour scheme, which was basically all white. Made it very difficult to see where one window started and another begun. Eventually they released a patch for people that wanted to revert to the Visual Studio 2010 colour scheme.

Edited December 20, 2012 by inthepink

[wpcoe]

I'm now a happily converted user of Windows 8. Both my notebook and desktop are configured to my liking and operate just fine. In the beginning, I fell prey to the swirling condemnations of Microsoft for desecrating the Windows platform (by removing the Start button and creating the Start Screen) and thought Microsoft was nuts to do so.

Why are people so hung up about the Start Screen and its irrelevance on a non touchscreen device? You don't like it? Don't use it. I don't, other than as a hyper Start Menu. I have found that I don't miss the Start button one bit.

Don't like the Charms? Don't use them. (Okay, I wish there were a safe way to deactivate the pop-up Charms bar, but it's easy enough to ignore.) On Win7 I had desktop shortcuts to Shutdown, Restart and Hybernate. I do for Win8 as well. (Actually for Win8 they're for Shutdown, Restart and Sleep, since Win8 supports hybrid-sleep.)

Overall, Win8 seems faster. It definitely starts up/closes down more quickly. My workload/flow is identical on Win8 as it was on Win7. All my desktop programs look and perform identically as before. What's all the squawking about?

I like the changes to Explorer -- copy/move dialog box, ribbon menu, etc. I like the new Task Manager. I like the <Windows key+x> menu. (Control Panel? <Win key+x, P> Device Manager? <Win key+x, M>)

The only thing I'm still getting used to is the lack of Aero Glass. I liked the hokey transparency of title bars and borders. But, that's just a cosmetic issue. Has nothing to do with functionality or usability.

[Khun Jean]

I do agree the start button makes life easier when you are working on the desktop and that doesn't make me a dinosaur (as somebody else commented). If I am on the desktop writing something in word and I want to open Excel, why on earth would I want to go to the start screen, find the Excel tile and click on it, (or search for it by typing the name) only to be flung back onto the desktop. It's easier to do it all from the desktop and I agree with people who say that Microsoft have been a little premature in removing it.

Why not have a Excel shortcut on the taskbar, or a toolbar with all the office programs in it. Or define a keyboard shortcut, or put some tiles for office together on the start page and press windows key and click on the icon/tile. The speed with which you go from word to excel is the same or faster when you do one of those. Once open you can easily switch, mouse in the left upper corner, or alt+tab or again taskbar (it is called that for a reason!)

Start will get you started, taskbar will keep switching between tasks easy.

For me the taskbar is the most efficient. Once that is configured for your specific needs it is the quickest and most clear.

The start screen is kind of a fullscreen taskbar, it moves out of the way once you made your choice.

The normal taskbar can be made higher to accomodate more shortcuts and put anywhere on the screen not only at the bottom.

Now if windows 8 removed the taskbar, then i would be a little pi..ed. Removing the start button well it should not be used at all in my opinion.

In windows 7 i only used it to shutdown, crazy to call it a start button in that case.

[inthepink]

Actually I do have shortcuts on the task bar for most programs that I use a lot, like Thunderbird, Word, and Visual Studio. I should put one on there for Excel. Very informative post by the way - cheers.

Things used to be so much easier in the old days. No PCs and the only mobile device I had as a kid was an Etch-A-Sketch. I phoned Apple up earlier and said I keep shaking my iPad but the screen won't clear. They just laughed at me.

Edited December 20, 2012 by inthepink

[Chicog]

If this doesn't please you please just disregard instead of making more complaints.

MSPain

I'm not complaining, I know how to restore the status quo.

I think Microsoft shareholders might be complaining, however, when they see how poor Windows 8 uptake is compared to 7.

I can tell you for a start that the 2,500 PCs under my jurisdiction will not be going to Windows 8 any time soon. And that goes for just about every large company with whom I deal.

I have no objection to you liking it, but I fail to see why you can't see the obvious. As I said, I think it's great on touchscreen devices, I have 15 Lenovo Twists coming next week for my team. It's simply shit as a Desktop interface.

[inthepink]

Very few large companies will be moving to Windows 8 any time soon, most of them are still migrating to Windows 7. Why do people keep making the same comments every time a new version of Windows comes out?

Large corporations are always very slow on the uptake when it comes to new software.

Edited December 20, 2012 by inthepink

[endure]

The last time I worked on a Starbucks EPOS system (about 6 months ago) they were still running NT4 as is the UK Post Office behind all its counters.

[Chicog]

As the old saying goes (and Microsoft should have heeded it), if it ain't fxxxed, don't fix it.

[inthepink]

Great idea. Then we'd just have another bunch of people moaning about how Microsoft has gone stale and how they never innovate.

If you work in IT, you must understand that standing still is not an option.

Edited December 21, 2012 by inthepink

[hml367]

Keyboard shortcuts:

http://windows.micro...hortcuts#1TC=t1

I have found, including Windows 7, that a combination of keyboard shortcuts and my pointing device make things easier for myself.

MSPain

Edited December 21, 2012 by hml367

[Khun Jean]

Just a few days ago i learned a friend of mine who is using windows since it was introduced a quick way to copy and paste.

His normal style is painstakingly selecting a word with the mouse, then move his mouse to the "edit" menu option and choosing 'copy', then move to the new location with the mouse, clicking that to put the cursor where he wants, move to the menu 'edit' again and choose 'paste'.

I showed him a few other ways to do it, like double clicking a word and then dragging it to the new location, or using ctrl+c and ctrl+v, using shift+arrow keys to do the selecting, using home,end, ctrl+home, ctrl+end to navigate quickly through a text, etc. In short he learned to use word in a certain way and never ever changed his way or investigated what could be done more. My little lesson of ten minutes made his using word efficiency go up a lot.

I am in the IT business long enough to know that most people seldom try anything new, afraid of making the computer explode or something, so they keep on doing the same thing for years and years and years. The fault lies often in the fact that employers not spend enough time to educate people creating a very inefficient use of computers even if only office products are used.

The same happens when people are confronted with windows 8, if you learned to use windows only by left clicking and using only the most basic things panic sets in when a thing like a start button is gone. Many are totally lost, especially those that use windows a lot. Put a person that never used a computer behind a windows 8 and they figure it out within seconds. First because they are not looking for a start button, because it is right in front of them what the chooses are and they not complain about missing a desktop as they have never seen one before and have no concept of a 'desktop'. To not alienate 95% of the people who did use windows for many years and for who the word 'desktop' means a screen with icons there is a tile called 'desktop' to click on. Most of those 95% however have no idea that clicking on the tile 'desktop' brings them to their familiar desktop. It is the ability to think simple that has been suppressed. It has nothing to do with intelligence but more with the willingness to adapt and staying interested. If an MIT professor says windows 8 is the worst thing ever because it is unusable and my 8 year old son figures it out in a few seconds by just doing things it shows where the problem lies. Unfortunately people will parrot what the MIT professor says instead of just giving it a go.

[Chicog]

Great idea. Then we'd just have another bunch of people moaning about how Microsoft has gone stale and how they never innovate.

If you work in IT, you must understand that standing still is not an option.

And if you worked in IT, you'd realise that things like Industrial Control Systems are designed with a 10-15 year lifespan and rarely get updated.

Admittedly there are drawbacks to that, but since most vendors simply repackage stuff with a few changes to convince you to upgrade, you're a sucker if you keep upgrading just for the sake of it.

Clue: Open a command prompt in Windows 8 and type "Ver".....

[Chicog]

Just a few days ago i learned a friend of mine who is using windows since it was introduced a quick way to copy and paste.

His normal style is painstakingly selecting a word with the mouse, then move his mouse to the "edit" menu option and choosing 'copy', then move to the new location with the mouse, clicking that to put the cursor where he wants, move to the menu 'edit' again and choose 'paste'.

I showed him a few other ways to do it, like double clicking a word and then dragging it to the new location, or using ctrl+c and ctrl+v, using shift+arrow keys to do the selecting, using home,end, ctrl+home, ctrl+end to navigate quickly through a text, etc. In short he learned to use word in a certain way and never ever changed his way or investigated what could be done more. My little lesson of ten minutes made his using word efficiency go up a lot.

I am in the IT business long enough to know that most people seldom try anything new, afraid of making the computer explode or something, so they keep on doing the same thing for years and years and years. The fault lies often in the fact that employers not spend enough time to educate people creating a very inefficient use of computers even if only office products are used.

The same happens when people are confronted with windows 8, if you learned to use windows only by left clicking and using only the most basic things panic sets in when a thing like a start button is gone. Many are totally lost, especially those that use windows a lot. Put a person that never used a computer behind a windows 8 and they figure it out within seconds. First because they are not looking for a start button, because it is right in front of them what the chooses are and they not complain about missing a desktop as they have never seen one before and have no concept of a 'desktop'. To not alienate 95% of the people who did use windows for many years and for who the word 'desktop' means a screen with icons there is a tile called 'desktop' to click on. Most of those 95% however have no idea that clicking on the tile 'desktop' brings them to their familiar desktop. It is the ability to think simple that has been suppressed. It has nothing to do with intelligence but more with the willingness to adapt and staying interested. If an MIT professor says windows 8 is the worst thing ever because it is unusable and my 8 year old son figures it out in a few seconds by just doing things it shows where the problem lies. Unfortunately people will parrot what the MIT professor says instead of just giving it a go.

Why didn't you just teach him to Right-Click, Copy and save pissing about with the keyboard altogether?

Like I said, this is about choice. If people are smart enough to download and install Classic shell or Start 8, I would assume they know what the Desktop tile does. I also assume, like me, that they don't want the WDI shit slowing them down just to get to it.

[Khun Jean]

Just a few days ago i learned a friend of mine who is using windows since it was introduced a quick way to copy and paste.

His normal style is painstakingly selecting a word with the mouse, then move his mouse to the "edit" menu option and choosing 'copy', then move to the new location with the mouse, clicking that to put the cursor where he wants, move to the menu 'edit' again and choose 'paste'.

I showed him a few other ways to do it, like double clicking a word and then dragging it to the new location, or using ctrl+c and ctrl+v, using shift+arrow keys to do the selecting, using home,end, ctrl+home, ctrl+end to navigate quickly through a text, etc.

Why didn't you just teach him to Right-Click, Copy and save pissing about with the keyboard altogether?

Like I said, this is about choice. If people are smart enough to download and install Classic shell or Start 8, I would assume they know what the Desktop tile does. I also assume, like me, that they don't want the WDI shit slowing them down just to get to it.

If you read closely you will notice i ended with etc. It would seems a little to much to mention every single method to do something. Using shift+insert is yet another way. But he is using the mouse with his right hand and his left hand was doing nothing while in the resting position. I advised him to use the mouse as he was used to but instead of not using his left hand use it for shortcuts. People who use the mouse with the left hand can do the same with the insert/delete buttons.

'....pissing about with the keyboard....' ? (That tells a lot about how you use the computer, nothing wrong with the styule but highly inefficient and probably will promote repetitive strain syndrome)

Isn't a keyboard that what people use the most when they write text in word. It is a bit difficult to do that without a keyboard. And lifting your hands from the keyboard to use the mouse for things that can be easily done on the keyboard will slow you down a lot. Again it is the will to learn that lacks. Shortcuts are not made for nothing it speeds up working on the computer by hundreds of percentages. ctrl+s is another usefull one. It saves a document, takes about a tenth of a second Instead of moving your hand to the mouse, going to the menu clicking on it then selecting save and click again.

Choice, how can people make a choice when they don't know about the new options available. It is more a wish even a must to return to the old and familiar. Then the search on internet is how to get the start button back, again not what alternatives are available. It is all about getting their precious start button back and they will do anything to accomplish it (even downgrading) , instead of using a simpler method offered by windows 8. The good news is that for those people stuck in their ways it is actually possible, isn't that great!

Why is WDI slowing things down. Not my experience.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Khun Jean

[inthepink]

Great idea. Then we'd just have another bunch of people moaning about how Microsoft has gone stale and how they never innovate.

If you work in IT, you must understand that standing still is not an option.

And if you worked in IT, you'd realise that things like Industrial Control Systems are designed with a 10-15 year lifespan and rarely get updated.

Admittedly there are drawbacks to that, but since most vendors simply repackage stuff with a few changes to convince you to upgrade, you're a sucker if you keep upgrading just for the sake of it.

Clue: Open a command prompt in Windows 8 and type "Ver".....

I worked in software development for 15 years (still dabble but not my main occupation now). As I said earlier, the uptake of a new OS by large corporations is not a good gauge of its popularity, for the reason you yourself just stated. So it wasn't relevant for you to state that you had no plans to upgrade the 2,500 PCs that you look after. You wouldn't have upgraded whatever was on offer.

Microsoft has decided to pursue the Apple strategy to a certain extent, as BYOD policies become more widespread, meaning that it will be the consumer and not the CIO / ICT Manager or whatever, who dictates the future path of software development to a large degree (from a GUI perspective anyway).

Of course, they still have many industry leading enterprise software applications / suites / platforms that will not be designed with the consumer in mind and which generate a large percentage of their annual revenue

Edited December 21, 2012 by inthepink

[Chicog]

'....pissing about with the keyboard....' ? (That tells a lot about how you use the computer, nothing wrong with the styule but highly inefficient and probably will promote repetitive strain syndrome)

And keyboards don't? What do you think is the single biggest cause of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

[Chicog]

As I said earlier, the uptake of a new OS by large corporations is not a good gauge of its popularity, for the reason you yourself just stated. So it wasn't relevant for you to state that you had no plans to upgrade the 2,500 PCs that you look after. You wouldn't have upgraded whatever was on offer.

Actually, you're wrong. Had Windows 8 offered superior features and security without the ridiculous interface redesign, I would be skipping the remaining Windows 7 upgrades we are doing and go straight to Windows 8 (as far as application compatibility is concerned, it's excellent).

I am running it on my personal and company machines, and I have a Server 2013 running in the office with XAMPP on it - it's absolutely rock solid.

I have nothing against the OS, I love most of it, but WDI would simply be counter-productive to people who have years of ingrained experience doing things in a way they understand. Again, I am only talking about Desktop PCs without Touchscreens. It's quite intuitive and very useable on touchscreen devices. On my Lenovo AIO I quite often swipe in and hit start to switch to WDI for Ebay and so on. But I'd say I only use it about 10% of the time. And it's easy to swipe; using a mouse to get it is frankly irritating.

As for BYOD, it's full of holes and we have a DNBYOD policy (and a DDNBYON as well!). If people want mobile access they use our devices and we control and secure them.

Our employees are not "consumers", they are "employees", and they don't get to decide that their company mobile device can run Angry Birds.

[Khun Jean]

'....pissing about with the keyboard....' ? (That tells a lot about how you use the computer, nothing wrong with the styule but highly inefficient and probably will promote repetitive strain syndrome)

And keyboards don't? What do you think is the single biggest cause of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

Did i say keyboards don't? Sitting wrong will already give some problems, position of the hands can give problems, placing your monitor wrong can give problems etc...

Don't just pick out one sentence and isolate it.

[Chicog]

Oh purlease, keyboards (even used in proper posture) are the biggest source of that particular flavour of RSI, so anything that reduces the use of it can only be a good thing.