Plodprasop Proposes Flood-Prevention Dam For Bangkok

[LaoPo]

Good to know, but the sloping towards the sea is the same as in The Netherlands and Thames area and they managed to control the enormous water masses so they can do the same in Thailand provided they also control the watermasses from up north by leading and steering them towards large valleys and other means.

The problem is that Thailand's water management is NOT centralized but divided in many different managements on local levels and everybody is claiming to know the best way for it's own area but not the total delta bay- and river-systems.

There should be a centralized upper level water management system for the whole country and delta in particular.

And, who was talking a dam barrier of a mere 1,3Km ? I certainly didn't.

Neither Holland or England have the amount of rain that Thailand has. When the Thames Barrier and the Dutch Delta works keep water out, they don't need to worry about letting water out either. The problem for Bangkok isn't the high tides, it is the amount of water coming down the river.

Correct about the (tropical) rain, but at the same time Holland has to deal with the inflow, coming from various huge rivers from France, Belgium and Germany with enormous amounts of water.

Holland now created very large "depots" (lower lying areas of land) which can now be used to catch the surplus of water, otherwise the country would be flooded since 26% is UNDER sealevel whilst almost 30% is vulnarable to floodings of the rivers.

Large parts of two of those rivers are ABOVE sealevel and flooding is a very high risk.

The Netherlands has more than 3,700 (!) Km dikes, dunes and other water stopping mechanics !

This image says it all!

Netherlands compared to SEA level...(the lines on the left are mainly dunes and dikes, protecting Holland from the North Sea; but that won't be enough (by far) in case of serious floodings...

Maybe someone can produce a similar image of the area around Bangkok ? Anyone?

[rubl]

In the Netherlands most rivers have a summer and a winter streamchannel. This wiki picture shows how that works. In addition areas can be allocated as (temporary) water overflow / storage area. Areas which only function as 'emergency' storage area may retain their (mostly agricultural function, at least in part.

http://upload.wikime...vierbedding.gif

Edited January 8, 2013 by rubl

[oldsailor35]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod or any other Thai for that.

[rubl]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod or any other Thai for that.

It depends on the objective. With a Flood barrier against seawater, floodwalls/dikes to guide the water and the fast draining we saw in tests last year, the plan may like to practically test what in theory should be possible: make the lives of millions miserable.

At the moment without further details I find it difficult to envision other objectives, even just pondering theoretical possibilities. I reject as ridiculous the idea that THB 470 + a few more hundred billions need to be flushed down the drain as fast as possible, or as k. Plodpasop said "project should be completed during this government's term"

Edited January 8, 2013 by rubl

[oldsailor35]

You don't understand, it is not a dam per se, but a tidal barrage.

Don't say "We all know blocking the water isn't the answer" most of us are not stupid. You don't understand, it is not a dam per se, but a tidal barrage. blocking the water at exceptionally high tides which coincide with excessive rains and storm surges to prevent disasterous flooding.

The dam is a barrage across the entrance from the sea at the mouth of the Chao Phraya River. This barrage is similar to the Thames barrier in London, and in those in Holland. Bangkok continues to sink, and already 100's of sq. kms of land around the mouth of the river on the west side has already been lost including several villages. Unless the barrage is built Bangkok will be under water every year by 2020.

Japanese, Dutch and British experts including myself have recommended this solution for many years and was to have gone ahead in 2006 but the coup stopped work on the final phases of the King's Master Plan to prevent flooding in Bangkok and its environs. The barrage will only be closed under exceptional circumstances to prevent Bangkok being flooded by exceptionally high tides. Most of Bangkok is less than 2 metres above mean sea level as it is. Pictures and explanations are available on the internet.

Remember also that Bangkok is known as the Venice of the East because it was built on swamp land on the mouth of a river and is much like Venice in Italy. Venice also continues to sink and currently floods regularly as they still have not built a barrage.

Thank you for your comment!

Only few here understand the enormous problem of Bangkok, as explained by you and some others.

Mr. Plodprasop is under attack for this plan because of his past but that's not the point.

The point is that the Government has to do something, and fast, before a huge drama unfolds for the eyes of the Thai...and the world

The cheap comments by some, laughing their brains out, about this plan do not realize the horrific dangers.

Instead of giving laughable comments, they could read and study a little more before they comment since this is a very serious problem.

Very serious, yes i know! but its simple really. Get Khun Plod to buy a big fleet of those balloons like the one the army bought. Fit them all with water scoops and have them fly in a continous circle dumping the water into the gulf...........bloody simple aint it !

[WAERTH]

It doesnt really matter whom wants to do it. As long as the Thais realize it is a long term, like 50-100 years, plan and not a 90 day thing and lets go on to the next project.

If Thailand does this it has to be a totally integrated plan. Dealing with all waterways and the sea in the lowlying central Thai area. If they do not do that the plan will fail and money will have been wasted.

Unfortunately after having stayed here for 14 years I am afraid keeping all noses in the same direction for more than 12 months will be a challenge!

[Buchholz]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

.

[LaoPo]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

.

Yes, if Thailand could only be run by a few expats like the afore mentioned posters...

But instead, lots of Farang deliver comments all day long, criticizing every single member of every single Government, instead trying to deliver some POSITIVE thoughts HOW things could improve in Thailand.

Same old story, over and over again, ALWAYS NEGATIVE

Nothing new; sad really

[rubl]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

Yes, if Thailand could only be run by a few expats like the afore mentioned posters...

But instead, lots of Farang deliver comments all day long, criticizing every single member of every single Government, instead trying to deliver some POSITIVE thoughts HOW things could improve in Thailand.

Same old story, over and over again, ALWAYS NEGATIVE

Nothing new; sad really

[EyesWideOpen]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

.

Yes, if Thailand could only be run by a few expats like the afore mentioned posters...

But instead, lots of Farang deliver comments all day long, criticizing every single member of every single Government, instead trying to deliver some POSITIVE thoughts HOW things could improve in Thailand.

Same old story, over and over again, ALWAYS NEGATIVE

Nothing new; sad really

Hmmm I wonder why farangs on TV are always posting negative comments............. Could it possibly be that government officials seem to have an agenda of looting the country??? Proposing a major flood project , then in the same breath say that if should be completed in the couple years the current government is still in office? Do you not see the humor of some one like Chalerm making pronouncements about fixing major issues in 90 days that never happen? Let up suppose for a minute there is a parallel universe, where Thai officials are honest, hard working , and every action taken by them was designed to benefit the Thai people. In that universe, then nobody on TV there could post negative comments.....

Edited January 8, 2013 by EyesWideOpen

[LaoPo]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

.

Yes, if Thailand could only be run by a few expats like the afore mentioned posters...

But instead, lots of Farang deliver comments all day long, criticizing every single member of every single Government, instead trying to deliver some POSITIVE thoughts HOW things could improve in Thailand.

Same old story, over and over again, ALWAYS NEGATIVE

Nothing new; sad really

Hmmm I wonder why farangs on TV are always posting negative comments............. Could it possibly be that government officials seem to have an agenda of looting the country??? Proposing a major flood project , then in the same breath say that if should be completed in the couple years the current government is still in office? Do you not see the humor of some one like Chalerm making pronouncements about fixing major issues in 90 days that never happen? Let up suppose for a minute there is a parallel universe, where Thai officials are honest, hard working , and every action taken by them was designed to benefit the Thai people. In that universe, then nobody on TV there could post negative comments.....

In fact: NO

Since I came to Asia for the very first time, more than 35 years ago, I've always been flabbergasted by Farang/Westeners who ALWAYS knew better than the Asian; whether from Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, Indonesia, China or elsewhere.

The point is that "we", Farang/Westerners on TV, continously look upon Asia with our western eyes and seldom ask ourselves what and how THEY think about it.

But, NO NO, "we" always know better than the Thai government.

This or that chap in the government is a nuthead or an idiot and he knows nothing since "we" always have a better and more intelligent opinion.

"We" don't even discuss or ask them anymore for advise since they don;t need it....why would we tell or ask them since "we" know better anyway?

We might as well take over the country since they are worthless...

Are they?

Or do we "allow" them to run their own country the way they do, the way they wish and the way THEY want since THEY are the Thai..... and start criticizing ourselves in the mirror a bit ?

How would YOU feel about a hurdle of Thai attacking YOUR (members of) government over and over again with NEGATIVE COMMENTS ?

What would you say?

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all ?

[EyesWideOpen]

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all ?

Darn I feel a bit overwhelmed by the Sleeping Beauty photo............. ok now I am back on balance . Thai culture is to accept, and western culture is to question . I in fact think there are a lot of Thais who know exactly what is going on with the government. Witness their desire to watch the canceled TV program about corruption. Or ask any Thai how much they like the Royal Thai Police.....SEA countries in some ways are very much alike. There has been corruption in the past , there is corruption now, and most likely there will be corruption in the future. Only Singapore has been able to break this death spiral.

So when a government official has somehow turned his low government salary into billion ( s?) of baht proposes a mega project and then names some absurd time frame, that certainly gets my attention. Will my post get the attention of the government ? Probably not, and I don't really care. I actually like living here. However if government actions get too bizarre, I will just get on a jet and leave. It is the Thais who have to stay here and bear the brunt of these actions, not me. I wonder what all the Thais who were flooded last year thought of the government....

If there was a American Visa run by Thai people in America, I would read it constantly to see what they thought about America. Maybe they could see something I could not...

[OzMick]

In fact: NO

Since I came to Asia for the very first time, more than 35 years ago, I've always been flabbergasted by Farang/Westeners who ALWAYS knew better than the Asian; whether from Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea, Indonesia, China or elsewhere.

The point is that "we", Farang/Westerners on TV, continously look upon Asia with our western eyes and seldom ask ourselves what and how THEY think about it.

But, NO NO, "we" always know better than the Thai government.

This or that chap in the government is a nuthead or an idiot and he knows nothing since "we" always have a better and more intelligent opinion.

"We" don't even discuss or ask them anymore for advise since they don;t need it....why would we tell or ask them since "we" know better anyway?

We might as well take over the country since they are worthless...

Are they?

Or do we "allow" them to run their own country the way they do, the way they wish and the way THEY want since THEY are the Thai..... and start criticizing ourselves in the mirror a bit ?

How would YOU feel about a hurdle of Thai attacking YOUR (members of) government over and over again with NEGATIVE COMMENTS ?

What would you say?

Suffering from post-colonial guilt, are we? Not my problem, so I can see the government and people clearly and, strangely enough, they are not always right, ethical or even honest. As I have Thai children and I live here, I feel entitled to point out the greater mistakes and sins, whether it is appreciated or not.

As for Thais coming to my country, they are allowed to buy land and become citizens. This gives them the right to vote, and not merely criticize, which they are entitled to do freely and without the risk of trumped-up slander charges for telling the truth. And when they vote, they know that EVERY member of parliament will face an electorate to be evaluated by the people who will judge the quality of the person and their past performance - unlike here where dinosaurs, criminals, and political ingenues are foisted upon them.

They will also have the benefit of a free media to ask unwanted questions, ridicule idiocy and reveal transgressions past, current and in planned, so that decisions can be made by INFORMED voters, one of the cornerstones of a real democracy.

[quiksilva]

Too much water coming downstream has historically been the problem. Now imagine if that coincided with a high spring tide, or a storm surge? Now that barrier looks a lot more sensible, right?

Is a barrier the only solution? No, of course not. But perhaps it should (I'm no expert as to say that it must) be included as part of a comprehensive flood management system that should include holding areas and flood courses.

As to questioning why should the so called "elites" give more protection to Bangkok versus anywhere else. That is merely divisive tin foil hat trolling talk. The government has limited resources. They can't protect everywhere equally, that's just a fact of life, no matter where you are.

The government's job is to use resources as efficiently as possible. I know, I know, the efficacy of government is as much, if not more, of joke here than it is anywhere. But if someone were to task you to allocate very limited resources to install systems to protect a country against the dangers of flooding, surely it stands to reason that you should first protect the areas that are the most densely populated and/or most economically vital to the country?

Furthermore wouldn't you especially look after those locales that tick both boxes? Sadly this means that some areas wouldn't receive the same level of attention, and guess what the people living in those places will be justly upset, but what can reasonably be done? A solution would be to have more funds to invest in protection in more places, perhaps funds raised from the elimination of corruption and more efficient tax collection, but let's be realistic...

Edited January 9, 2013 by quiksilva

[Moruya]

Bangkok and the areas to the south are very flat and sloping very gently towards the GoS - water made them that way.

Building a 1.3km closable barrier will just push the high tides around the sides.

You better study the tidal dams in The Netherlands and the Thames Barrier and other similar systems around the world before you give a comment like this.

I'm a fluids engineer. I'm very familiar with the Thames barrier.

If you think water will wait at a barrier rather than find its own level then Plodprasop has a role for you

Good to know you are a "fluids"" engineer and that you are familiar with the Thames Barrier; does that mean you actually participated in the construction of massive built water controlling systems like the Barrier and Dutch waterworks ?

The (rather flat) sloping towards the sea is the same as in The Netherlands and Thames area and they managed to control the enormous water masses so they can do the same in Thailand provided they also control the watermasses from up north by leading and steering them towards large valleys and other means.

The problem is that Thailand's water management is NOT centralized but divided in many different managements on local levels and everybody is claiming to know the best way for it's own area but not the total delta bay- and river-systems.

There should be a centralized upper level water management system for the whole country and delta in particular.

And, who was talking a dam barrier of a mere 1,3Km ? I certainly didn't.

The Thames barrier works because the embankments were raised for around 20km upstream as were existing seawalls.

The OP talks about a barrier of several km width.

[TackyToo]

It took Thailand more than eight years to implement a proper Tsunami warning system. The idea of Mr. Propellerflopp building a dam_n dam somehow gives me hope. Here is the reason why:

Rumour has it that Kim Jong Il was completely freaked out when he was informed of serious problems in the construction of the hydroelectric plant in Huichon, the paper "The Chosun Ilbo" wrote. "He freaked out and yelled at the officials, they need to fix the plant," a newspaper quoted its source. He continued: "He immediately wanted to visit and inspect the facility. He could not get his anger under control - and suddenly he died. "

The hydroelectric power plant in Huichon was a showcase of the insular country and the plant was supposed to cover half the electricity of the capital. The regime exerted tremendous pressure on the authorities to allow the construction of the 100-meter and 555-meter-long dam made much faster than planned.

But in the rush according to "The Chosun Ilbo" serious errors have been made: cracks in the dam created accordingly.

Sometimes such things happen again…

Edited January 9, 2013 by TackyToo

[ResX]

I'm not a hydrologist, but as a recreational fisherman I have noticed that when a river is in spate the tide may be increasing levels while the flow is still seaward. As spring tides seem to coincide with high flows in the Chao Phraya, I wonder if shutting the mouth of the river at such times would be a good idea.

It definitely is and it will be the ONLY possibility to prevent Bangkok from a major and utter horrible disaster!

I have been warning since many years that the greatest danger for Bangkok is NOT just the excessive water masses from up north but the high spring tide at the same time during a dangerous storm, combined with a full moon!

That only happens in rare weather conditions but the possibility is real.

We have seen the same (several times during the ages) in The Netherlands in 1953 and New Orleans in 2005 by Hurricane Katrina as an example!

I know that many will say that Thailand doesn't have hurricanes but a heavy SE storm, blowing the enormous amounts of waters from the Gulf into the mouth of the Chao Phraya River, combined with high tide AND huge amounts of water coming from up north will effect in a horrible disaster, totally destroying large parts of Bangkok and surroundings!

That's why I fully support the plans to build a dam; the sooner the better but of course in Thailands' case, in combination with bridges, water reservoirs up north and channelling systems for oversupply of water from up north.

The Netherlands completed such dams already and New Orleans is in the process of doing and completing dams and it's the only solution for Bangkok as well.

If such a disaster happens, both Don Muang- and Suvarnabhumi Airports will be totally flooded for many months, not to speak of the drama about shipping and fishing vessels, power supply, drinking water, distribution and much MUCH more!!!

The majority of the economy will come to a total and complete stillstand

Dams in The Netherlands:

http://www.deltawerk...taworks/23.html

Actual parts of the finished dams in bad weather; the locks can be opened during normal weather.

You'll pardon me for wondering where ~6000m³ /sec are intended to go with the mouth closed.

That is very good question. I have one question myself. But I think I need to know the answer to this question first. Can I?

[ResX]

Replace the word "dam" with "storm surge barrier" or similar, then the idea is fine. Build a gate system at the mouth of the river, and install a series of giant pumps next to the gates (yes pumps large enough do already exist). Then when the tide is high and the river is flooding at the same time, simply close the gates, and pump water from the river into the sea. The electric bill will be large, but since it is only a few days or weeks a year, that does not matter much.

This method works, and it has already been done in both the US and in europe. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel, and certainly no reason to continue with the "water pushing machines" they invented during the last flood, and which any engineer worth his salt, or just a person with common sense, could have told the government would not work at all!

Do you have any idea of the amount of electrical energy required? Where does it come from - the Chinese nuclear power station(s) mentioned early perhaps? What do you do with all that generating capacity for the rest of the year?

Around 10 New Orleans size pumps will do the trick, and they are each equipped with 5,000 hp diesel generators, which is the cheapest solution when they are not supposed to run all year. Yes, both the pumps and the diesel are expensive, but still cheaper than the losses incurred when Bangkok is flooded, especially when considering the pumps will last for many years, and will potentially save Bangkok from many floods.

Remember also we know in advance when floods will come and when the tide is high, so we can both empty the dams upriver in advance, and use the pumps to lower the level in the river well in advance of the floods, making the whole riverbassin one giant buffer. Calculating a bit on this would probably mean we could do with fewer pumps, thus lowering the cost.

The objective makes sense. The only problem is it can be achieved via efficient water management of dams, flood control structures and natural retention capacity of the Chao Phraya.

[ResX]

Good to know, but the sloping towards the sea is the same as in The Netherlands and Thames area and they managed to control the enormous water masses so they can do the same in Thailand provided they also control the watermasses from up north by leading and steering them towards large valleys and other means.

The problem is that Thailand's water management is NOT centralized but divided in many different managements on local levels and everybody is claiming to know the best way for it's own area but not the total delta bay- and river-systems.

There should be a centralized upper level water management system for the whole country and delta in particular.

And, who was talking a dam barrier of a mere 1,3Km ? I certainly didn't.

Neither Holland or England have the amount of rain that Thailand has. When the Thames Barrier and the Dutch Delta works keep water out, they don't need to worry about letting water out either. The problem for Bangkok isn't the high tides, it is the amount of water coming down the river.

Then this is clasical flood problem that I think I'm good at. First thing first. Thailand has to have an integrated flood mangement system.

[Ricardo]

Wasn't the idea of a long flood-barrier, across the Gulf of Siam, originally one of the Big-Boss's pet-projects ?

[kutjebu]

Whatever is the solution (if there is one) i am sure that it is far beyond any 'mad brain' idea thought up by the likes of Khun Plod

Thanks for concentrating it down to the bottom line.

.

Yes, if Thailand could only be run by a few expats like the afore mentioned posters...

But instead, lots of Farang deliver comments all day long, criticizing every single member of every single Government, instead trying to deliver some POSITIVE thoughts HOW things could improve in Thailand.

Same old story, over and over again, ALWAYS NEGATIVE

Nothing new; sad really

What do you expect from all these tattoo monsters.

[Buchholz]

Good, legitimate bump of the month-old thread, kutjebu

Would hate to see you miss out on an opportunity to add a flame.

.

[ResX]

I don't think it is a wise decision. 99.99% flood waters originated from up streams. Put your THB and resources there. Otherwise you will regret. First thing first. You need to have effective flash flood mitigation system for BKK. You don't need any big dam near BKK. The flood waters shall be resolved further in the north to a point that BKK water management requires to deal with its own flash floods only.

This is how strategic flood control is done to ensure it can be done with least cost.

[ResX]

I'm not a hydrologist, but as a recreational fisherman I have noticed that when a river is in spate the tide may be increasing levels while the flow is still seaward. As spring tides seem to coincide with high flows in the Chao Phraya, I wonder if shutting the mouth of the river at such times would be a good idea.

It doesn't work. To put it bluntly. .

[ResX]

Don't you hate how the "elite" are just worried about protecting the shopping centres in Bangkok.

No that much. But I'm curious to see "the elite" using "doesn't make sense approach" to solve the real world problem.