JemJem Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) I cannot write in Thai so I will put it like this : What is the difference between 'katoey' and 'dtut' (which is written with 'dtor dtow' and said in a high tone) ? Or, are they exactly the same, regarding meaning and usage manner ? Thanks. Edited January 11, 2013 by JemJem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I cannot write in Thai so I will put it like this :What is the difference between 'katoey' and 'dtut' (which is written with 'dtor dtow' and said in a high tone) ? Or, are they exactly the same, regarding meaning and usage manner ? Thanks. The literal meaning is different (the latter meaning "arse") and the latter is more pejorative. There's also, I would say, some degree of ambiguity as to who they identify: some people use the former for both homosexual men AND transgender, but the latter term is primarily used to describe (unkindly, in many or most cases) a gay man. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurwait Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one plus ones that just dress like a woman for scamming purposes. Dtut is a very efeminent gay guy. Doesn't think they are or dress like a woman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one plus ones that just dress like a woman for scamming purposes. Dtut is a very efeminent gay guy. Doesn't think they are or dress like a woman. Not always. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurwait Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one plus ones that just dress like a woman for scamming purposes. Dtut is a very efeminent gay guy. Doesn't think they are or dress like a woman. Not always. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap How do you mean ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one plus ones that just dress like a woman for scamming purposes. Dtut is a very efeminent gay guy. Doesn't think they are or dress like a woman. Not always. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap How do you mean ? As per my previous post... Sometimes "Katoey" is used to describe a gay man who does NOT dress as a woman or identify as one. Sometimes the other term is used to describe ANY gay man. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) dtut is a broad slang for gay and can mean anything male gay dressed as woman or whatever. In everyday speech, people usually just say dtut. But when katoey is used, it's usually to explicitly mean a transvestite / cross dresser / (gay) man dressed or looks as woman. The literal meaning is different (the latter meaning "arse") and the latter is more pejorative. Note that dtut (ตุ๊ด) is gay while dtood ตูด means arse. Short vowel and long vowel and different tones. Edited January 11, 2013 by Mole 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I remember being told when i came to Thailand by a Thai that "dtut" was an expression that came from the first syllable of the Hoffman movie Tootsie... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) Note that dtut (ตุ๊ด) is gay while dtood ตูด means arse. Short vowel and long vowel and different tones. Right you obviously are. As is the postwer who mentioned "Tootsie", I believe (at least it's something I'd heard too, more than once). Don't know what I was thinking as I can clearly hear the difference. Brain fart. But I'm going to stick with the rest of my post (for the time being?) Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Edited January 11, 2013 by SteeleJoe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) No offense to anyone but I often find Farangs arguing Thai semantics off-putting (people sometimes look pretentious and silly to me even if highly knowledgeable) so I tend to avoid it myself. I weighed in here (not even realizing what forum I was on), against my better instincts, becasue I was interested in the cultural aspect... ...and made an ass of myself on the linguistic. Oh, the irony. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap Edited January 11, 2013 by SteeleJoe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Poke Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 dtut is a broad slang for gay and can mean anything male gay dressed as woman or whatever. In everyday speech, people usually just say dtut. But when katoey is used, it's usually to explicitly mean a transvestite / cross dresser / (gay) man dressed or looks as woman. The literal meaning is different (the latter meaning "arse") and the latter is more pejorative. Note that dtut (ตุ๊ด) is gay while dtood ตูด means arse. Short vowel and long vowel and different tones. Mole has it absolutely right - "took dong la k'ap" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks for some interesting and informative answers. I am especially intrigued that 'dtoot' came from 'Tootsie'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katana Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 A Thai writing on the origin of the word TUT ตุ๊ด. It was from the 1982 film Tootsie which was popular in Thailand at the time. http://guru.google.co.th/guru/thread?tid=45794b2a81faaf17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Some of you wrote that 'dtut' is used for any gay guy. Are you sure about that ? I mean, I somehow got the feeling that 'dtut' implies at least some extent of effeminateness. Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as 'dtut', I wonder (if he is known to be gay, of course) ? Edited January 16, 2013 by JemJem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteeleJoe Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Some of you wrote that 'dtut' is used for any gay guy. Are you sure about that ? I mean, I somehow got the feeling that 'dtut' implies at least some extent of effeminateness. Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as 'dtut', I wonder (if he is known to be gay, of course) ? You've got that about right. It is generally not used about a guy who is a "Gay King" but again, it is often used at least somewhat pejoratively so in that way it could be used about any homosexual man. Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Poke Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Some of you wrote that 'dtut' is used for any gay guy. Are you sure about that ? I mean, I somehow got the feeling that 'dtut' implies at least some extent of effeminateness. Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as 'dtut', I wonder (if he is known to be gay, of course) ? I think that it is unwise to try to be too specific about the absolute meanings of words in any language. They are always subject to the intended meaning (accurate or not) of the speaker, and the interpretation and understanding of the listener. Language is not an exact science. People don't consider at length before composing sentences in real life conversation. Nonetheless specific translations can provide a rough framework. So, to return to your question and against my better judgment become absolute in my interpretation: dtut is used as a descriptive noun for a gay effeminate man, but not a katoey But this is where absolutely specific translations fall down. How can anyone be sure that he's gay? He might be bi-curious or straight and therefore not a dtut, even though his outward appearance is that of a dtut. And what is the difference to the naked eye between a katoey and an effeminate straight or gay man who wears effeminate clothes? Or a katoey and a straight crossdresser? At what point of attire does an effeminate straight male crossdresser become defined as a katoey? Is a male bisexual crossdresser a katoey or a bisexual man? Would your answer be the same if he were an occasional crossdresser? If a katoey wears mens' clothes when he goes to renew his ID card is he at that point in time a man or a katoey? .... and so on.... If we become too interested in defining an exact definition for dtut we then have to define exactly all the meanings of the words in our definition. And that's not how language works. So, whilst I consider my above definition to be correct and specific it is not set in stone. Language is flexible. Finally, you asked, "Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as dtut?" : In my opinion, not usually, but if he was it wouldn't necessarily be an incorrect use of the language. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Some of you wrote that 'dtut' is used for any gay guy. Are you sure about that ? I mean, I somehow got the feeling that 'dtut' implies at least some extent of effeminateness. Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as 'dtut', I wonder (if he is known to be gay, of course) ? I think that it is unwise to try to be too specific about the absolute meanings of words in any language. They are always subject to the intended meaning (accurate or not) of the speaker, and the interpretation and understanding of the listener. Language is not an exact science. People don't consider at length before composing sentences in real life conversation. Nonetheless specific translations can provide a rough framework. So, to return to your question and against my better judgment become absolute in my interpretation: dtut is used as a descriptive noun for a gay effeminate man, but not a katoey But this is where absolutely specific translations fall down. How can anyone be sure that he's gay? He might be bi-curious or straight and therefore not a dtut, even though his outward appearance is that of a dtut. And what is the difference to the naked eye between a katoey and an effeminate straight or gay man who wears effeminate clothes? Or a katoey and a straight crossdresser? At what point of attire does an effeminate straight male crossdresser become defined as a katoey? Is a male bisexual crossdresser a katoey or a bisexual man? Would your answer be the same if he were an occasional crossdresser? If a katoey wears mens' clothes when he goes to renew his ID card is he at that point in time a man or a katoey? .... and so on.... If we become too interested in defining an exact definition for dtut we then have to define exactly all the meanings of the words in our definition. And that's not how language works. So, whilst I consider my above definition to be correct and specific it is not set in stone. Language is flexible. Finally, you asked, "Would a totally non-effeminate gay guy be referred to as dtut?" : In my opinion, not usually, but if he was it wouldn't necessarily be an incorrect use of the language. Nice post, Horatio Poke. Thanks. By the way, 'genderbender' is a word I like I guess there is no real equivalent of that in Thai. Or, is there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkokburning Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 My wife works in the tv industry, loads of gay men as well.as other friends. She often refers to gay men usually fairly effeminate but not always so as "katoeys". Its usually said with a smile as they really are not katoeys. I sense it to be a + affirmation to their being open and gay. Most are just typical gays. Some could qualify as katoey kwai but that is a bit derisive. A few are trans and a couple are very attractive transexual. Incidently katoey = vagina in Khmer so heads up on that. I have also heard the dtoot = tootsie explanation. Makes sense, doesnt hurt that it also has some addl subtle sexual.overtone as well to make it "proper" slang. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 My wife works in the tv industry, loads of gay men as well.as other friends. She often refers to gay men usually fairly effeminate but not always so as "katoeys". Its usually said with a smile as they really are not katoeys. I sense it to be a + affirmation to their being open and gay. Most are just typical gays. Some could qualify as katoey kwai but that is a bit derisive. A few are trans and a couple are very attractive transexual. Incidently katoey = vagina in Khmer so heads up on that. I have also heard the dtoot = tootsie explanation. Makes sense, doesnt hurt that it also has some addl subtle sexual.overtone as well to make it "proper" slang. Glad I started this thread. Learnt some new stuff, such as 'katoey kwai' Of course, I had known of 'katoey' and 'kwai' on their own but hadn't heard of this one. Just googled it now and know the meaning now By the way, of course, we can't be sure but I get the feeling that the percentage of effeminate gays amongst the whole gay population in Thailand is a lot higher than that of, say, in Western Europe or North America. Do you folks agree ? And, I have always wondered why this is the case. Sorry for drifting away from language discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric67 Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Incidently katoey = vagina in Khmer so heads up on that. I thought that was กะนูย kanui? At least, in the version of Khmer they speak in Thailand it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkokburning Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) That is at least what an old Khmer informed me when I used the term (in usa). She was actually Khmer - Cambodian refugee. JJ not sure if Thailand has more per capita than elsewhere in the world or they simply come to bkk to get out of the small cities. Being gay might be more accepted than in the West by say...one father. But still its not totally accepted. I think male transexuals that are really not passable have the worst time of it. But yes, in bkk it is very gay, very open much like any normal city in us or much of EU. Both Thai and Phils feature lots of gay men on game and variety showd. They work a lot behind the scenes as well. My wife says they have their share of Tom's as well. Edited January 20, 2013 by bangkokburning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potosi Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one ... That's the urban legend, people trapped in the body of the wrong gender fighting prejudice. The legend is wrong. It's not about gender. They are the same like people who cover the body in tattoos, or piercings, or bodybuilders, or the elderly who try to beat ageing by cosmetic surgery. They adhere to a self or by a group imposed ideal of beauty, and there is competition to look the most beautiful and ladylike. It's up to them what they do to their bodies, but also false labelling in order to get support for something that deserves none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weary Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 And your opinion, Potosi, is based on what science? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaccha Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 I've heard the words ccombined as "kha-dtut". It was clearly a one-off that evoked laughter. But it was immediately understood. It was fired at a effeminate man who as a one-off was dressed as a cute girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one ... That's the urban legend, people trapped in the body of the wrong gender fighting prejudice. The legend is wrong. It's not about gender. They are the same like people who cover the body in tattoos, or piercings, or bodybuilders, or the elderly who try to beat ageing by cosmetic surgery. They adhere to a self or by a group imposed ideal of beauty, and there is competition to look the most beautiful and ladylike. It's up to them what they do to their bodies, but also false labelling in order to get support for something that deserves none. Katoey thinks they are a woman and tries to look like one ... That's the urban legend, people trapped in the body of the wrong gender fighting prejudice. The legend is wrong. It's not about gender. They are the same like people who cover the body in tattoos, or piercings, or bodybuilders, or the elderly who try to beat ageing by cosmetic surgery. They adhere to a self or by a group imposed ideal of beauty, and there is competition to look the most beautiful and ladylike. It's up to them what they do to their bodies, but also false labelling in order to get support for something that deserves none. Well, ''partial genderbenderers" (like me, for example) might be as you descibed above (i.e. trying to look pretty, sexy, etc sometimes) but I doubt very much that transgendered people are as you described. Most of them have been feeling like they are not of the gender they were born with, from very early age and many of them go through a lot of things physically and emotionally. I wish we had a transgendered person on this forum, who could tell us about herself in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 We used to have and she was very definite that she was a woman not a man. She's doing a PhD in the Netherlands at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) We used to have and she was very definite that she was a woman not a man. She's doing a PhD in the Netherlands at the moment. Cool. Sadly, I didn't know about her. I wish we had more transgendered members here. Returning to the language aspect, recently, I have heard some Thai staff at a pharmacy referring to one of their colleagues who was present there, in a joking manner (but not in a making-fun-of way of course) as 'two-in-one' He is a pre-op transgendered person apparently. I wonder if such usage of this term is common among the Thais. Edited February 10, 2013 by JemJem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 We used to have and she was very definite that she was a woman not a man. She's doing a PhD in the Netherlands at the moment. Cool. Sadly, I didn't know about her. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/user/19740-bambina/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) We used to have and she was very definite that she was a woman not a man. She's doing a PhD in the Netherlands at the moment. Cool. Sadly, I didn't know about her. http://www.thaivisa..../19740-bambina/ Thanks. Oh, okay. Yes,I remember Bambina I had no idea that she is a transgendered person. I had thought of her as being a biological female. Well, if she's reading this, good luck, Bambina, with your studies in Holland. Edited February 10, 2013 by JemJem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klons Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 The thairecordings site does a section on ladyboys if anyone is interested. After going through it I think I know about all I need to know about the followings terms. สาวประเภทสอง กะเทย ตุ๊ด เกย์ ชะนี And below is an excerpt about using ตุ๊ด which is good to know. ตุ๊ด อันนี้เป็นคำหยาบคายนะครับ ไม่ควรใช้ ถ้าเราเผลอไปเรียกใครว่า ตุ๊ดๆ เนี่ย เขาอาจจะต่อยปากเราได้นะครับ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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