Uk Visas .. How Can The Process Be Improved

[thai3]

I am sorry if I have not been active enough for you, but as my wife was rushed into hospital on Thursday night with a serious kidney infection I have had other priorities over the last couple of days.

I am so sorry to hear about your wife. Hope that she will get well soon.

she expressed the opinion that the system is grossly unfair

Don't forget that the various Immigration Acts and their corresponding rules were primary designed to keep certain people out. So, by their very nature, they inherently would be unfair to those trying to get in.

That would be fine if the system worked like that but from what I see, read and am told by ex immigration people that's not the case. The system is loaded in favour of the well versed fraud, the honest applicant not expecting to be doubted and who goes thinking honesty will be enough is at a disadvantage.

Went to see MP today who said she would write a letter of support and that we should appeal. The old dyed in the wool socialist manager at the office made me laugh. Looking round he said it's the indians here who mess it up for everyone else as they stay on a VV and go to the office to help with appeals. He said they have often emptied their bank accounts and sold houses back home then expect to get a VV. But they also said that idiot appeals aside you stand a good chance on appeal.

[Bangkokjay]

Well from reading the post's i can see why your papers took 130 odd days to arrive

Plain and simple you can't beat the system!!!!! what you have to do is work your way around it the best you can

To many people like to kick and scream and as seen in many areas not just visa applications and this gets them nowhere

Again you can't beat the system but if you work to it the best you can for yourself then you will have no problems.

There are many, many more people happy with Scouse and GU22 than not me for 1 so this must say something.

I would stop blaming others if they can answer your questions or not. I don't know you situation or want to but shooting the messanger won't resolve your issues.

Take a deep breath and deal with them looking for others to take your problems out on isn't the way

[silomfan]

Well from reading the post's i can see why your papers took 130 odd days to arrive

Plain and simple you can't beat the system!!!!! what you have to do is work your way around it the best you can

To many people like to kick and scream and as seen in many areas not just visa applications and this gets them nowhere

Again you can't beat the system but if you work to it the best you can for yourself then you will have no problems.

There are many, many more people happy with Scouse and GU22 than not me for 1 so this must say something.

I would stop blaming others if they can answer your questions or not. I don't know you situation or want to but shooting the messanger won't resolve your issues.

Take a deep breath and deal with them looking for others to take your problems out on isn't the way

So you are saying its perfectly ok for them to be vindictive and drag sending the papers out until the last few hours? They are the British Embassy , they are not supposed to behave in this way. They are public servants and it is in their guidelines that the papers should be despatched as soon as possible . They did not do this . Of course you are right when you say that they did it deliberately because i was making too much fuss. However do you think it is RIGHT for them to behave in this way ?? Is it right that you can e-mail them and they just not reply ? Is it right that a solicitor can e-mail them repeatedly and they just not reply ?? What other organisation could get away with this kind of awful behaviour ??

SILOMFAN

[Bangkokjay]

Hi no it's far from right that they act in this way but as with all big organizations they are a nightmare! some have no problems and seem to get a visa issued quick and others seem to have many problems some justly i suppose and others wrongly but there isn't much we or anyone can do when this happens we just have to go with the flow as inevitably i am sure you will succeed

I am not a Christian but i do like sayings as i think they have good meaning one i like best is

God grant me the serenity to accept the things i can not change

Courage to change the things i can

And the wisdom to know the difference

I think this is good for the position you are in as basically you just have to accept what has happened and do your best for it to be resolved however long it takes and whatever you have to do.

As mentioned i don’t fully understand your position but feel your post was a bit abrupt and nasty to others who are here to help of there own free so we can gain an insight into how the embassy works and view things.

They don’t guarantee us anything, only advice that can only help us benefit from there knowledge with our applications. This has to be seen as good even if a small percentage of the applications fail

Hope all goes well for the future

Jay

[thai3]

There are many, many more people happy with Scouse and GU22 than not me for 1 so this must say something.

I would stop blaming others if they can answer your questions or not. I don't know you situation or want to but shooting the messanger won't resolve your issues.

Take a deep breath and deal with them looking for others to take your problems out on isn't the way

I don't see anyone here complaining about batman and robin, they don't issue visa's do they. The whole debate is about the crappy, unpedicatable and at some times seemigly spiteful service from the 'public servants' at OUR embassy in Bangkok. They are the ones to blame and the unfair system they have to work within, not people giving advice here, even if they do support the system as it is with all it's failings.

[silomfan]

Hello again,

I thought i was going to let the dust settle but i think i want to reply to the last 2 posts from "bangkokjay" -nice name i like that - and "thai3".

Bangkokjays post was the kind i like. It was trying to be helpful and understanding and this is often lacking in some peoples posts. He has slightly misunderstood my position as those familiar with me more will know . I have the visas i wanted and am remaining here simply to air my views on the unfairness of the system and to warn others that it is not as straightforward as the official websites suggest . Pity they are not more honest and qualifys the "The UK welcomes foreign visitors .. " bit by adding "as long as they fit the criteria , have loads of money, property and a good job" Ordinary Thais don't bother to apply . That would be more honest if rather unlikely to happen.!! Similarly the Home Offices slogan "building a just and tolerant society " should also be modified. Until recently they were very intolerant of gay relationships for example and are only so now not because they want to be but because they have to be. The word "just" is also open to their interpretation of it . They feel its just to split people up for ever on the say so of 1 ECO who may be in a bad mood and an ECM who will rubber stamp a refusal notice.

So my purpose has been simply to relate my own experiences and warn others they may need to do more than the official sites suggest to prove their case.

Thai3 is right also in that this debate has been about telling others that , sometimes, the behaviour of the British Embassy Bangkok has been appalling and that they can and do resort to underhand spitefulness and unfair tactics. The point being here that , as the British Embassy , they should not be doing this under any circumstances but instead providing a open and honest system that we can all be proud of . And doing it with a high level of politeness that you are entitled to expect from a public body . No-one is suggesting all the staff are swine , just that some can be and that is what is unacceptable . BTW Thai3 , UK Visas is based in the UK and oversees the visa system . Type "UK Visas" into google and you will find them . They have a complaints page that should be used by all who have concerns and complaints and , unlike the British Embasy, they DO actually reply to your complaints within 20 days . In my experience they often reply sooner , but be aware that the first reply will be a stock standard reply and you must pursue it furthur , often several times, to get it before someone who will actually look at your case and reply appropriately . They keep tabs on all the overseas posts , and if a substantial nuimber of complaints were received about a particular one , they would be forced to look at it. I complained about the lack of "real" review by the ECM's and the result was that someone was sent out from the UK to look at the situation.

So you see things can be made to happen , but it is not for the feint-hearted. You must be prepared to push and push and be on their case every week until they act.

In fairness, i must say that the last application my Thai partner made was handled with great speed - a few weeks is great speed for them - and actually dealt with politely and efficiently by the very helpful , english, receptionist. Occasionally they surprise even me

SILOMFAN

[thai3]

Hello again,

BTW Thai3 , UK Visas is based in the UK and oversees the visa system . Type "UK Visas" into google and you will find them . They have a complaints page that should be used by all who have concerns and complaints and , unlike the British Embasy, they DO actually reply to your complaints within 20 days . SILOMFAN

I tried typing Uk visa first and that brings up endless pages from thaivisa.com, strewth I'll send these people an email as the embassy have not replied, (no surprise there) thanks.

[silomfan]

Hello again,

BTW Thai3 , UK Visas is based in the UK and oversees the visa system . Type "UK Visas" into google and you will find them . They have a complaints page that should be used by all who have concerns and complaints and , unlike the British Embasy, they DO actually reply to your complaints within 20 days . SILOMFAN

I tried typing Uk visa first and that brings up endless pages from thaivisa.com, strewth I'll send these people an email as the embassy have not replied, (no surprise there) thanks.

Try this

www.ukvisas.gov.uk

[Bird on the Wire]

[i don't see anyone here complaining about batman and robin, they don't issue visa's do they. The whole debate is about the crappy, unpedicatable and at some times seemigly spiteful service from the 'public servants' at OUR embassy in Bangkok. They are the ones to blame and the unfair system they have to work within, not people giving advice here, even if they do support the system as it is with all it's failings.

I don't see how the system can be unfair when it would seem that 90% plus of folk get their visa with no hassles. Hey, obviously you're pissed because your wife was refused but in the greater scheme of things that's just a piss in the ocean.

[thai3]

[i don't see anyone here complaining about batman and robin, they don't issue visa's do they. The whole debate is about the crappy, unpedicatable and at some times seemigly spiteful service from the 'public servants' at OUR embassy in Bangkok. They are the ones to blame and the unfair system they have to work within, not people giving advice here, even if they do support the system as it is with all it's failings.

I don't see how the system can be unfair when it would seem that 90% plus of folk get their visa with no hassles. Hey, obviously you're pissed because your wife was refused but in the greater scheme of things that's just a piss in the ocean.

where do you get 90% from???? by no hassles I think you mean get visa at the first interview. If 90% got their visa's that would make a nonsense of the system as fraudulent applications must be quite high. I read on another board of a guy who met a TG in a massage parlour in the UK who he last saw in shit city (pattaya) She explained that she comes over when she feels like earning a lot of money easily. I wonder if she's in the '90%' ?

What we want is a higher proportion of GENUINE applicants getting their visas on first interview and helping them to do it by the embassy giving them the information which would enable them to present the evidence they want. Unfortunately the fraudelent ones seem to have this sussed out already.

[GU22]

where do you get 90% from????

Entry Clearance Statistics 2004-5 (PDF, 362K) It was actually 94.1%

If 90% got their visa's that would make a nonsense of the system as fraudulent applications must be quite high.

You have been berating others for assuming that some Thai posters are trolls and you frequently on various boards slag off Thailand-UK for what you (wrongly) claim is their dismissive attitude to Thai posters. Now you are saying that most Thai visa applicants must be frauds!

Not only are you a <deleted>; you are a hypocrite!

[slimsam]

Amongst the rambling and personal insults I think there are some genuine issues here.

The Visa applications system is not perfect and it may never be 100% perfect but it certainly could be better.

It would be very easy for people who have got their visa (or a visa for their partner) to say "well I’ve got mine so stuff the rest" and move on, so I do think it is good that people continue to take an interest in the process.

What would be better though is if there was a more organised group that put pressure through the right channels to get the process reviewed to try and make it more fair and sympathetic to genuine applications.

The Bangkok embassy is the busiest in terms of visa applications and so is going to have the highest number unhappy applicants. While the refusal rate (6.8% in 2003-04 figure) is certainly not the highest it is likely that amongst those refusals there are some genuine cases.

(and I know for sure that there are some "not so genuine" that were accepted because I have met them in UK).

So the system could certainly do better.

Any ideas or initiatives on a more productive way to use our time and effort to change things would be welcome.

[GU22]

The Bangkok embassy is the busiest in terms of visa applications and so is going to have the highest number unhappy applicants. While the refusal rate (6.8% in 2003-04 figure) is certainly not the highest it is likely that amongst those refusals there are some genuine cases.

In 2004/5 Bangkok, with 43,511 applications, was number 11 in terms of applications received. Number one was Lagos with 176,866. (Source)

Of those 43,511 applicants 2586 were refused, 5.9% of applicants. Worldwide, 19% of applicants were refused, so you can see that Bangkok's refusal rate is well below the average! Indeed, if you look at Bangkok's figures over the last 4 years you will see that the total number of applicants is rising yet the total number of refusals is falling. This would indicate that obtaining a visa, certainly in Bangkok, is getting easier; probably, IMHO, because of forums such as this which means that many more applicants are properly prepared.

Of course, those who claim that the ECOs in Bangkok are acting out of some weird spite ignore this fact as it doesn't fit in with their prejudice.

Slimslam, you are not the first to say that the system needs to be improved. Silomfan came up with one idea, which would have meant making getting a visit visa impossible unless the applicant were reasonably well off and employed, but other than that no-one has actually come up with any ideas.

It is also obvious that any system which relies on human beings making decisions is going generate errors. Some genuine applicants will be refused and some fraudsters will be successful. For the genuine there is the fall back of an ECM's review and then, if necessary, an independent appeal. But reading many posts on here and other forums from unsuccessful applicants/sponsors one can only conclude that the number one reason for a genuine applicant being refused is not a spiteful ECO, nor a simple ECO error; it is poor preparation by the applicant/sponsor!

As said elsewhere; We fully prepared a comprehensive folder, proving without doubt our relationship. Making it foolproof as what may seem obvious to us is not obvious to all.

For the genuine applicant, being refused is naturally disappointing, stressful, frustrating. I can fully understand, and sympathise with, their feelings of anger. It is human nature to look for, and find fault, with the someone else rather than oneself. But wailing that the system is unfair and should be changed without having concrete proposals only makes one sound like a petulant teenager, like Harry Enfield's Kevin (it's sooooooo unfair!!!!!!).

As far as I can see there are only to ways to ensure that no genuine applicants are refused:-

1) Complete open door. No visa required, come to the UK for any reason you like and stay for as long as you like. Anyone seriously think that's going to happen?

2) Close the door. No visas issued to anyone, ever. Foreigners not allowed. Anyone (outside the BNP) want that?

[silomfan]

Not for the first time , GU22 and I seem to be speaking a different language . He says my suggestions for changing the system would mean that only well off Thais with a good job would get a visa. I never went anywhere near saying that .!!

Yet again , what i am saying is this :-

Can apply to any visa (with adaptations )but using a visitors visa as the main example , theses should be the requirements....

1)Applicant obviously must fill in application form , pay fee etc

2)Applicant must state when and for how long they wish to visit the UK

3)Applicant must show where they will stay for the duration of the visit (backing this up with documentary evidence of provisional hotel bookings , but see next point for a variation on this )

4) If applicant is staying with a friend or relative , as is more often the case , then documentary evidence of that persons accomodation and their ownership or rental of it should be provided.

5)A letter from the sponser (if applicable) should be enclosed.

6) Proof of sufficient funds to cover the cost of the stated visit . This can easily be done by showing up to date Thai bank statements or , if being sponsered, up to date bank statements from the sponser. As a helpful guideline , because this clause is open to different opinions of what is enough money , the Home Office could publish a sliding scale of the sort of amounts they consider appropriate for different durations.

That should be it .If you can meet all the above then you DO get the visa . Anyone wanting a vv should have no difficulty in providing proof of all of the above . They are not difficult criteria and surely no-one currently not in a position to supply the above would be given a visa anyway.

So how , from this ,can it be said i am suggesting a system where only the elite can get a visa ?? In fact the opposite is the case . I am saying that anyone who can provide the above , easy , critieria should be given the visa . So that even a bar girl could easily get it in fact because the sponser would provide whatever she couldn't . Personally i don't understand why this forum is so anti-bar girls . Are they not human beings entitled to want to travel the same as everyone else?

My criteria are not so different from the current ones . What is different is that i am suggesting taking away all the non-factual criteria so unfairness cannot creap in . The reason to return bit is therefore deleted .

I accept that many people may have breached their visas in the past and that the ECO interviews should be for them. They would have to show much more documentation to show that if granted a visa they wouldn't breach it again. However the critieria should still be set at a reasonable level .People can make mistakes you know , it doesn't mean that they would stray in the future. However for first time applicants with no adverse history , i would suggest that if they can meet the above then they get the visa , no interview , no discretion , thus no possibility of unfairness. The only exceptions would be when the ECO has reason to doubt the authenticity of the documents provided or , exceptionally , when the ECO has inside information that this application is not what it appears . This would be rarely used though in practise.

Now someone tell me how this , fact based, system cannot be an improvement on the current one . GU22 maybe you can explain how i am saying what you have suggested in your last post . I am not saying its for the elite, i am saying its for all , bar girls too, as long as they can provide the very easy documentation.

SILOMFAN

[GuestHouse]

Judging from the questions asked on this forum I think a few simple improvements on behalf of applicants might help matters:

1. Read the application forms

2. Read the application notes

3. Answer the questions that are actually asked, not the question you wish was asked.

4. Gather the documents and information that the applicaiton forms and notes are ask for

[vinny]

Also helpful for applicants:

Read the appropriate sections of General Instructions used by entry clearance staff on the handling of entry clearance and visa applications, the Policy Instructions used by Home Office staff and, of course, the UK Immigration Rules.

[GU22]

Not for the first time , GU22 and I seem to be speaking a different language . He says my suggestions for changing the system would mean that only well off Thais with a good job would get a visa. I never went anywhere near saying that .!!

Reasonably well off applicants would have no problems in providing all the documents you suggest, but less well off ones would. That is why I think your proposal would be biased and discriminatory.

There is no set list of documents, and no fixed amount of money required, as every case and everyone's circumstances are different, but other than that all that you suggest is already in place!

The only difference between the current system and the one you propose is that you want to remove the ECOs discretion. The vast majority of visas, of all types, are issued without the need for an interview because the paperwork shows that the criteria are met. If the paper work doesn't, then the applicant gets a second chance to present their case at interview. Under your proposal, this second chance would be gone. How is that more fair?

Reason to return is difficult to prove beyond doubt. But it doesn't have to be, ECOs work on the balance of probabilities. Many applicants have been granted a visit visa despite not having what could be called a concrete reason to return, as posts on this and other forums show. If the applicant does not have a concrete reason to return, but at interview the applicant shows themselves to be genuine and the reason for the visit to be genuine, and therefore they are trustworthy, then the ECO trusts them to return and they get the visa. Even if the ECO has some doubt then they can (and do) still issue a visa with an undertaking to return.

Your proposal removes all of this. which is why I said "Silomfan came up with one idea, which would have meant making getting a visit visa impossible unless the applicant were reasonably well off and employed."

I note that my request that you re-post those questions which you say I haven't answered has not been answered. I take it that means that you now acknowledge that I have answered all your questions, even if you don't care for the answers I gave.

[coldcrush]

What other organisation could get away with this kind of awful behaviour ??

SILOMFAN[

The UK Tax Office? lol Deal with it...

Edited March 1, 2006 by lopburiguy

[silomfan]

What other organisation could get away with this kind of awful behaviour ??

SILOMFAN[

The UK Tax Office? lol Deal with it...

Tax Office.. you have a point there !!

GU22 i didn't post those questions you hadn't answered because i thought our debate had maybe gone on long enough. Many posters have indicated how bored they are with it ( strange how this is one of the most read threads tho isn't it ??) and i have come to the conclusion , and i suspect you have to, that we are just not going to agree. The irony is we have both had refusals before for our partners and we have also both had success and currently we both have the visas we want. In a sense we stay on this forum to help , advise and warn others . So i guess we should perhaps call a truce and agree to disagree . No doubt we will both continue to post in our own ways and those whose threads we post on will just have to decide which , if any, of us has the most valid points.

Perhaps the kindest way to leave it is to say we have both made some good points and that neither of us is entirely right or wrong .

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

Agreed, neither of us is going to convince the other. Time to end this.

[vinny]

As far as I can see there are only to ways to ensure that no genuine applicants are refused:-

1) Complete open door. No visa required, come to the UK for any reason you like and stay for as long as you like. Anyone seriously think that's going to happen?

That process has already begun, within the EU! Perhaps the concept could be expanded to include Thailand.

[thai3]

As far as I can see there are only to ways to ensure that no genuine applicants are refused:-

1) Complete open door. No visa required, come to the UK for any reason you like and stay for as long as you like. Anyone seriously think that's going to happen?

That process has already begun, within the EU! Perhaps the concept could be expanded to include Thailand.

been gpoing on for years, just turn up and claim political asylum, claim rejected never mind appeal, no luck with that? no problem just disappear. The home office have no idea how many illegals are here and when they do come up with a few hundred thousand they just announce an amnesty and wipe the slate clean. So it can be somewhat annoying then to sit a bus coming to work and not be able to sit down due to it being stuffed with 'asylum seekers' Never mind I can always while away the time thinking about our wonderful embassy staff so vialiantly protecting our shores from the those thai's, even when they have every right to vist or settle.

[Rj 81]

been gpoing on for years, just turn up and claim political asylum, claim rejected never mind appeal, no luck with that? no problem just disappear. The home office have no idea how many illegals are here and when they do come up with a few hundred thousand they just announce an amnesty and wipe the slate clean. So it can be somewhat annoying then to sit a bus coming to work and not be able to sit down due to it being stuffed with 'asylum seekers' Never mind I can always while away the time thinking about our wonderful embassy staff so vialiantly protecting our shores from the those thai's, even when they have every right to vist or settle.

Your not bitter are you?

Edited March 2, 2006 by Rj 81