Corruption Costs Bt193 Bn A Year: Thai Anti-Graft Campaign Group

[Pimay1]

Each man for himself ( or woman ) then, dont worry about the ordinary Thai people, they know nothing different, they would of course if that money were chanelled in their direction, to make their lives better. Best not hold our breaths, some need to update their motors.

It's the ordinary Thai people that are at fault. They engage in corruption on a daily basis; giving tea money to the local Police, paying for expedited services and the general acceptance of the status quo. Change is desperately needed, but it won't come with the mai bpen rai attitude of the vast majority of Thais.

The real problem is with the flawed cultural and societal model that allows the rampant corruption to be deemed acceptable and that people who engage in wholesale corruption to be somehow untouchable within the patronage system of society. The mai bpen rai ethos among most Thais allows corruption and dishonesty to fester and continue unabated. It will take decades of education and a change in attitudes towards immoral behaviour to address the problem.

Sad but true. Case in point. My neighbor from the UK bought a plot of land for building a house. He wanted to get started on the house almost immediately. The local government officials told his wife it would be three months before she received the deed to the land. But if she paid them 20,000 Baht she could get the deed in one week. Go figure.

[dcutman]

Each man for himself ( or woman ) then, dont worry about the ordinary Thai people, they know nothing different, they would of course if that money were chanelled in their direction, to make their lives better. Best not hold our breaths, some need to update their motors.

It's the ordinary Thai people that are at fault. They engage in corruption on a daily basis; giving tea money to the local Police, paying for expedited services and the general acceptance of the status quo. Change is desperately needed, but it won't come with the mai bpen rai attitude of the vast majority of Thais.

The real problem is with the flawed cultural and societal model that allows the rampant corruption to be deemed acceptable and that people who engage in wholesale corruption to be somehow untouchable within the patronage system of society. The mai bpen rai ethos among most Thais allows corruption and dishonesty to fester and continue unabated. It will take decades of education and a change in attitudes towards immoral behaviour to address the problem.

Yea but is Thai immigration going to grant visa's and work permits to those educators? I would think the brown envelope option would be out of the question.

[blaze]

I certainly agree that corruption is endemic and built into certain aspects of the culture (a culture based on hierarchy and the exchange of gifts for services, favors and loyalty)- but this report is showing the damage that not just corruption does- (which is bad enough) but that so much of the ill gotten money is not circulated in the society- as it would have been a long time ago.

In a kind of paradox- the drives against corruption may have caused greater suffering than the corruption itself- (Corruption, by the way, is only one of the ways that the money shipped out of the country is obtained- )

Instead of the ill-gotten gains of crime/corruption being kept in the country and circulated- the bad guys are sufficienty afraid of anti-money laundering forensics that they now take the money out-- So instead of a resort hiring three hundred people in Hua Hin- the money will be used to invest in a resort in- Greece- or put into a failing Greek bank- which is nice for Greece but doesn't do much for Thailand. Kind of a paradox huh? The more that these governments put pressure on the crooks, the more money leaves the country.

(A better example is Montenegro which practically advertized itself as a haven for the dirty money of the Russian oligarchs).

Edited January 29, 2013 by blaze

[rubl]

Yes, I misread. Rubl and Dcutman are correct.

I looked for historic data by country but couldn't find it on the GFI website.

I had a quick look at the report, but I'm afraid I need to pick up an economics study before I can even try to interpret some of it. Two things for now though.

- The OP has "Over the decade, illegal financial outflow grew six-fold, up from Bt66 billion to Bt371 billion" with the report stating "Thailand average over 2001-2010 - ranking #13, outflow US$ 6,426 million". With 30B/1US$ that's about THB 195 billion yearly which seems to suggest a comparetively 'normal' grow over the period like most countries reported on seem to show.

- The report shows a global spike in outflow in 2008 with drop to 'normal' levels after, with 'normal' levels increasing over the reporting period. The 2008 spike might be related to the start of the 'banking bubble deflation'

[rubl]

I certainly agree that corruption is endemic and built into certain aspects of the culture (a culture based on hierarchy and the exchange of gifts for services, favors and loyalty)- but this report is showing the damage that not just corruption does- (which is bad enough) but that so much of the ill gotten money is not circulated in the society- as it would have been a long time ago.

In a kind of paradox- the drives against corruption may have caused greater suffering than the corruption itself- (Corruption, by the way, is only one of the ways that the money shipped out of the country is obtained- )

Instead of the ill-gotten gains of crime/corruption being kept in the country and circulated- the bad guys are sufficienty afraid of anti-money laundering forensics that they now take the money out-- So instead of a resort hiring three hundred people in Hua Hin- the money will be used to invest in a resort in- Greece- or put into a failing Greek bank- which is nice for Greece but doesn't do much for Thailand. Kind of a paradox huh? The more that these governments put pressure on the crooks, the more money leaves the country.

This suggests that the anti-laundering activities are not focussed correctly. A full integration in the banking system is required amongst others. This assuming that figures in the report relate to 'traceble' financial transactions with financial institutes and/or banks involved. In Thailand money moves which need to be accompanied by lots of papers might get those papers a wee bit to easily. And so on, and so forth. Long way to go, I'm afraid.

[Thai at Heart]

I certainly agree that corruption is endemic and built into certain aspects of the culture (a culture based on hierarchy and the exchange of gifts for services, favors and loyalty)- but this report is showing the damage that not just corruption does- (which is bad enough) but that so much of the ill gotten money is not circulated in the society- as it would have been a long time ago.

In a kind of paradox- the drives against corruption may have caused greater suffering than the corruption itself- (Corruption, by the way, is only one of the ways that the money shipped out of the country is obtained- )

Instead of the ill-gotten gains of crime/corruption being kept in the country and circulated- the bad guys are sufficienty afraid of anti-money laundering forensics that they now take the money out-- So instead of a resort hiring three hundred people in Hua Hin- the money will be used to invest in a resort in- Greece- or put into a failing Greek bank- which is nice for Greece but doesn't do much for Thailand. Kind of a paradox huh? The more that these governments put pressure on the crooks, the more money leaves the country.

(A better example is Montenegro which practically advertized itself as a haven for the dirty money of the Russian oligarchs).

Probably the largest economic cost is the misallocation of assets. Such as causing say property booms as in 1997. The wrong people are making a disproportionately high amount of money in comparison with others. I heard one of the best paid rewarded in the country is being a crane operator in laem chabang. Just consider it a tax on ALL trade in the port.

Quite an important man if you are shipping anything perishable, valuable or delicate.

[TonyR101]

Bt 193 billion must be the tip of Thailands corruption iceburg and it's clearly not an overall benefit fot the country's economy, but consider the alternatives.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills. The poor can't pay and the rich won't pay so the burden falls on those who have to, i.e. wage earners and businesses, and the cost of living rises sky high.

Corruption helps prevent burocracy imposing constraints that may be good applied to society in general but not so good from a personal standpoint, such as speed cameras, planning permissions, tax avoidance, getting a drink on election days, etc.

Taking corruption away from the country's aristocracy would be like taking guns away from Americans, They wouldn't be able to understand what the problem was.

[dcutman]

Bt 193 billion must be the tip of Thailands corruption iceburg and it's clearly not an overall benefit fot the country's economy, but consider the alternatives.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills. The poor can't pay and the rich won't pay so the burden falls on those who have to, i.e. wage earners and businesses, and the cost of living rises sky high.

Corruption helps prevent burocracy imposing constraints that may be good applied to society in general but not so good from a personal standpoint, such as speed cameras, planning permissions, tax avoidance, getting a drink on election days, etc.

Taking corruption away from the country's aristocracy would be like taking guns away from Americans, They wouldn't be able to understand what the problem was.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills.

We are talking about 65 billion US dollars that have illegally left the country in the last 10 years. Where do you think that money came from?

[rubl]

Bt 193 billion must be the tip of Thailands corruption iceburg and it's clearly not an overall benefit fot the country's economy, but consider the alternatives.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills. The poor can't pay and the rich won't pay so the burden falls on those who have to, i.e. wage earners and businesses, and the cost of living rises sky high.

Corruption helps prevent burocracy imposing constraints that may be good applied to society in general but not so good from a personal standpoint, such as speed cameras, planning permissions, tax avoidance, getting a drink on election days, etc.

Taking corruption away from the country's aristocracy would be like taking guns away from Americans, They wouldn't be able to understand what the problem was.

"Taking corruption away from the country's aristocracy" ? You probably just mean those in power and or position which includes many (common) people

[Thai at Heart]

Bt 193 billion must be the tip of Thailands corruption iceburg and it's clearly not an overall benefit fot the country's economy, but consider the alternatives.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills. The poor can't pay and the rich won't pay so the burden falls on those who have to, i.e. wage earners and businesses, and the cost of living rises sky high.

Corruption helps prevent burocracy imposing constraints that may be good applied to society in general but not so good from a personal standpoint, such as speed cameras, planning permissions, tax avoidance, getting a drink on election days, etc.

Taking corruption away from the country's aristocracy would be like taking guns away from Americans, They wouldn't be able to understand what the problem was.

Paying civil servants and public services employees salaries sufficient to make corruption the exception rather than the norm is going to place a huge burden on the national budget so Tax has to be increased to pay the bills.

We are talking about 65 billion US dollars that have illegally left the country in the last 10 years. Where do you think that money came from?

To be honest, that is a drop when considering how much gets transfer priced out of the country via tax havens, and that us apparently legit.

How does CP fund buying a Chinese insurance fund with companies from the bahamas?

[ginjag]

Just the thin edge of the enormous cash wedge that leaves Thailand......

perhaps Yingluck hasn't been notified of the report ?? if so I'm sure she would act Quickly to stop it ???

She knows.

so I was right, they are stopping corruption, your photo proves it, isn't it exciting ???

[Osiris]

Excuse me for asking but if they know of this outflow of cash why can't they stop it or even better just seize it?

Your asking a lot from a country where the IQ averages around 80...

[whybother]

Finance Minister affirms govt able to seek 350 billion-baht loan

And there goes another 350 Billion baht.

[EvilDrSomkid]

So I guess maybe there was something to that "alleged" 16 billion being transferred to HK? Hmmm

[A_Traveller]

In my view corruption is much more than simply a financial drag on the economy, though it is that too.

In a country which is increasingly viewed as suffering from truly endemic and systemic corruption throughout the operational hierarchy the damage is more reputational. In addition it becomes sociality corrosive, with no one being willing to accept any statement from an authority without taking the view that there is a hidden [usually monetary] agenda. Ultimately it no longer "good enough" to just add the requisite 30% because one can no longer be assured that what was said today will be true tomorrow or even enforceable.

Corruption ensures a country continues to be viewed as a questionable commercial [and maybe private] location, without the congruent rule of law and unable to meet the increasing demands of transparency.

As recent example it's intriguing to note that many here took the view that police statements were, at best, unlikely not inherently because the cases were questionable in and of themselves but that the police statements were met with direct antagonism. In other countries authority may be viewed with scepticism [wisely] but outright derision?

Such is the cost to the country, and tragically I don't see it changing for the better, it certainly has become worse over time.

Regards

[Buchholz]

Corruption Costs 193 Billion Baht A Year: Thai Anti-Graft Campaign Group

Finance Minister affirms govt able to seek 350 billion-baht loan

And there goes another 350 Billion baht.

and even mo' money, mo' money, mo' money...

Transport Ministry To Proceed With Bangkok-Chiang Mai High-Speed Rail Project

OP:

Bangkok to Phitsanulok and will cost 240 billion baht

Phitsanulok and Chiang Mai will take place a year later, 380 billion baht

240,000,000,000

+ 380,000,000,000

620,000,000,000 (total)

x 0.30 (standard corruption cut)

186,000,000,000 Baht (standard corruption cut total)

[12DrinkMore]

"Hub of Corruption", then?

[Hans Sierhuis]

Probably one of the most corrupt countries complaining about corruption? These topics are getting better every day. Keep up posting plz

[surangw]

worst part in reality is it can not be claimed as a business expense on taxes .

[blaze]

According to the report that the ACT guy is waving around, the biggest problem is that money that should be paid in taxes is being siphoned out of the country through elaborate trade mispricing schemes.(80% of the stated figures).

Kick backs, (what we over here tend to think of when we think 'corruption) are not the major source of these outflows- (less than 20 percent)

Now there is no question that kick backs in Thailand (as in many developing countries is a serious problem- but it is NOT the major source of money flowing out of the country (according to the report). Tax evasion in the private sector is (through trade mispricing)

I agree with everything A Traveller says- I would add also the impact on this dirty money on recipient countries: a case in point is the city of Vancouver, which now, thanks to Chinese money parked in the real estate sector, has the second highest cost of living relative to median income in the world. Natives can't afford to live there.

In addidtion, this money should be going into the state coffers-

Sadly, I think that this report will not be read- and that it will be misrepresented for political gain. And the core problem will persist while all focus will remain on the government.

The gov't claims to have, in the last two years, improved its tax collection- but I suspect that to get real transparency from the bigger companies is a task beyond the ability of any government over here.

Edited January 30, 2013 by blaze

[CantSpell]

Talking about Outflow... Those 160 MB found on that bank account in "Hong-Kong" (was it?)...

Haven't had any news from the cash since he was discovered?

Transferred back to... Dubai was it?