Two Ways Switches

[alaninkarachi]

I'm doing some domestic wiring and have a two way light switch in my bedroom. One switch at the door and one either side of the bed. So three switches in all. Both ends are simple two way. The middle one if I understand correctly is a 'double' two way. i.e. both wires cross over. Does anyone know where I can buy one of these switches. I'm using panasonic for all switches and sockets. I've tried Home Hub, Global etc. No help there.

Advice please.

[Crossy]

You want an 'intermediate' or 'four way' switch.

You will have fun finding them here, try your local electrical supplier rather than one of the DIY places. They may have to order for you.

[alaninkarachi]

Thanks. I'm in Khon Kaen and went to a local shop. He knew exactly what I wanted but told me very unlikely I could get one. Explained little demand. Understandable I support. But thanks for reply.

[Khonwan]

http://thailand.rs-online.com/web/p/light-switches/0330042/

Good wiring diagrams for 2 and 3 wire controls:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/WiringDiagrams.pdf

[Crossy]

http://thailand.rs-o...itches/0330042/

At 459 Baht plus 80 Baht for a back box (they won't fit Thai boxes) I'll walk to the light switch

Good wiring diagrams for 2 and 3 wire controls:

http://www.tlc-direc...ingDiagrams.pdf

Good stuff, note that the terms 'two way' and 'three way' are the UK equivalent of the US terminology 'three way' and 'four way'.

[Khonwan]

True, Crossy, but I have an MK version (same UK dimensions): just surface mount it or make your own box easily. You’re getting too used to Thai prices

[Crossy]

True, Crossy, but I have an MK version (same UK dimensions): just surface mount it or make your own box easily. You’re getting too used to Thai prices

Definitely, mind you that same switch is 174 Baht (inc VAT) from TLC in the UK.

[electau]

Try Clipsal ( Thailand) for switch mechs. and plates for series 30 switches. single pole 1- C -2 , the standard switch 10A mech and intermediate mechs, 4 terminal, 1-2, 3-4 and 2-3 and 1-4. 10A.

[GavinK]

Or Volex wide rocker for 133 baht at screwfix...

[TS79]

Bticino does an intermediate switch.

Catalogue Extract attached.

Bticino_4.pdf

[alaninkarachi]

Thanks Guys for all the help.

[bankruatsteve]

If you are unable or unwilling to locate an intermediate switch a thought you might consider for a workaround: Put a single switch at the door and use your "2-way" switches at either side of the bed. Before you retire, turn the door switch "on" which will allow off/on from the bed. Then, before leaving the room, make sure the light is on from the bed before then turning off at the door (which then makes the bed switches ineffective). Explaining that to a woman might be impossible but that would sort of give you the options you wanted.

[Khunangkaro]

CHANG. CH 502

Front looks same as CH 501,same dimension.

At the back at top you see normal double holes with one secure screw. At bottom two separate holes each with screw.

Price same order as CH 501 and fits Panasonic base plate.

Bought at DO HOME - UBONWATSADU (Warin, Ubon )

Edited February 14, 2013 by Khunangkaro

[alaninkarachi]

Many thanks. DO Home it is sometime this afternoon. Khon Kaen branch. Thanks to you all for replies. Much appreciated.

[alaninkarachi]

Khunangkaro, I went to a shop that sold the Chang 502. Its actually a 3 way switch if I'm not mistake. Was looking in that case for a 4 way switch in that case. Goes between two way switched. Can you still advice.

Cheers,

Alan

[Khunangkaro]

Alan, I apologize for making you enthusiastic with CHANG CH-502.

After reading again more careful and much netsurfing I conclude that intermediate switches, if any, cannot be found next door,  are rather expensive and  do not match "Panasonic look". Not to mention the disadvantages of a latching relay with as many push buttons as you wish.

So, I'm going back to basics with you as you already mentioned in your post: "...Both ends are simple two way. The middle one if I understand correctly is a 'double' two way. i.e. both wires cross over. ...".

Correctly indeed!.... ,GO DOUBLE...

Have your "Panasonic look" with two switches (both two way) next to each others on base plate. Change switches together. Can eventually stick the white levers together with a dot of silicone at time of push in.

In case you switch only one no danger because it is all same "pole"; only 50/50

that it works out as desired.

Wire A and B as in drawing.

[bankruatsteve]

I have no idea what you are suggesting, but doubt it will be a solution for anything in this thread.

[Khunangkaro]

Bankruatsteve,

Steve(?),

Feel so sorry for you having no idea after reading my post. After you know when you have done doing nothing, I wish you can enjoy reading following explanation done as giving to my dear little girl.

Hope you get freed from your doubts about the compatibility of my posts with this thread.

Start with careful study of:

- Good wiring diagrams for 2 and 3 wire controls:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/WiringDiagrams.pdf

If can't Click pdf-file here go to:

Post #4 from Khonwan

Posted 2013-02-06 11:41:46

After download & open pdf-file you not see the same intermediate switch in third and fifth diagram. In the fifth you must add dotted line between 1----1 and 2----2 at intermediate switch.

Now I will explain an alternative (replacement ) of the intermediate switch ("IS"). The solution is simple and adequate.

When you click on following Thumbnail you see on top three blocks. ONE=TWO+THREE.

Block ONE is "IS" same as in WiringDiagrams.pdf with two double in one wires connected, one on top at screws A&B and one on bottom at C&D.

Let at A and C connect Gray, at B and D connect Black wire.

Now think in theory of splitting "IS" as ONE=TWO+THREE and wired A, B, C and D as drawn in Thumbnail.

Then if TWO+THREE are operated simultaneously, the effect is the same as operating ONE.

If you understand that ONE and TWO each resemble a "Two way switch " then logically each can in practice be replaced with a real "Two way switch " as drawn at bottom in Thumbnail .

Because ONE and TWO are reversed, the wiring of A&B at the second real "Two way switch " must be B&A.

In this way the outside white levers can be operated simultaneously in the same position.

If accidently the levers are not in same position, then the lighting effect might not be as desired but further nothing goes wrong as all wires are the same 'pole'.

When use two switches like CHANG CH-502 next to each others on Panasonic Wide-Series base plate , then you can fix the white operating levers together in same position with a little silicon in between.

In a double (Black&White) wire stretched between two "Two way switch " on each end you can install as many (alternative ) "IS" as you like.

[bankruatsteve]

I couldn't open the thumbnail in your previous post (and still can't). The next one OK - and yeah, that looks like it will work. And if your little girl understands it, I'm even more impressed. Cheers.

[Khunangkaro]

............

If you understand that ONE and TWO each resemble a "Two way switch " then logically each can in practice be replaced with a real "Two way switch " as drawn at bottom in Thumbnail .

Because ONE and TWO are reversed, .........

In my previous post #18 please read:

TWO and THREE

( where I wrote: ONE and TWO )

SORRY, K.

[bankruatsteve]

I think this has been in the mix before, but just to clarify:

The American term for "way" (as in 3-way, etc.) is for the number of terminals on the switch. So: 2-way is SPST, 3-way is SPDT, 4-way is DPDT.

For the Brits, Europeans, etc. (I think) the vernacular is "way" for the number of positions for on/off in the circuit. So: 2-way is SPDT and 3-way is DPDT. I wonder what then is called a 2nd, 3rd, etc. DPDT in the circuit? Or, maybe that's when it's just called the "intermediate" switch. (?)

[Crossy]

Yes Steve, we call them all intermediates

To clarify the 'way' issue, the 'way' refers to the number of on positions on an individual switch. We don't tend to use the term 'one way', it's just a plain on-off switch. A two-way switch has two 'on' positions, a three-way has three 'on' positions (rarely found in domestic installations)

For example, a two-way switch is a SPDT (single pole, two way), an intermediate is a DPDT (two pole, two way) wired as a reversing switch internally so it has only 4 terminals rather than 6.

A three-way switch is more likely to be something like this, ok it's got 8 ways and several poles but you get the idea

[Khunangkaro]

Intermediate Switch [is] DPDT. (As used in this thread)

DPDT [is NOT always] Intermediate Switch. (As there are many possible switches that are DPDT )

S ÷ Single. P ÷ Pole.

D ÷ Double. T÷ Throw.

Images: SPST. SPDT. DPST. DPDT.

Click.... wait for single drawing with four images:

http://www.google.co.th/search?q=SPDT&hl=en&client=chrome-mobile&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WoklUanDBouKrgeA8oDoDw&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=320&bih=407#i=2

A DPDT switch has six connections, but since polarity reversal is a very common usage of DPDT switches, some variations of the DPDT switch are internally wired specifically for polarity reversal. These crossover switches only have four terminals rather than six. Two of the terminals are inputs and two are outputs. When connected to a battery or other DC source, the 4-way switch selects from either normal or reversed polarity. Such switches can also be used as intermediate switches in a multiway switching system for control of lamps by more than two switches.

Intermediate Switch:

Click.... wait for single drawing.

http://www.google.co.th/search?q=intermediate+switch&hl=en&client=chrome-mobile&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=P5YlUezcKIPkrAfhkoGACQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=480&bih=247#i=13

Edited February 21, 2013 by Khunangkaro

[Khunangkaro]

SURPRISE:

Electrical Construction Material | Panasonic Electric Works Sales (Thailand)

http://pessth.panasonic.co.th/product/electrical/catlevel3/wideseries.html

WEG5001K(white)

Features

สวิตช์ทางเดียว (switch one way)

Switch "B" , Single pole

16A x 250V~

WEG5002K

Features

สวิตช์ 3 ทาง (switch three way)

Switch "C" , Single pole

16A x 250V~

WEG5004K

Features

สวิตช์ 4 ทาง (switch four way)

Switch "E" ,

4-way

16A x 250V~.

---------++++++++-------

Alan, finally I found this link.

PANASONIC Wide-Series

I substracted these three switches for comparison.

Inner wiring not shown, but wording does believe that WEG5004K might be intermediate switch.

Although:

--Switch "C" , Single pole

--Switch "E" , 4-way

is confusing.

Sorry, no pictures of the backsides.

So it is not clear whether switch "E" is a "Crossover".

Edited February 21, 2013 by Khunangkaro

[alaninkarachi]

Khunangkaro,

Wonderful. I'll try and order one in Khon Kaen and Whow .................great thanks.

Alan

[Crossy]

Do let us know how you get on actually obtaining one of these elusive beasts

I have some hens teeth and rocking horse droppings to trade.

[Khunangkaro]

Khunangkaro,

Wonderful. I'll try and order one in Khon Kaen and Whow .................great thanks.

Alan

Allan,

You maybe can only order box with ten switches.

Supposed it is "Intermediate" for sure and the price is about same as other switches then is not problem because can be used for all functions.

Just connect two, three, or four terminals.

You only have to do without indication dot at its face.

[Khunangkaro]

HiAlan

Did you get your switch?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Khunangkaro

[alaninkarachi]

Guys,

I can buy the switch. Somewhere in Bangers. I'm in Khon Kaen and will sort it out in due course. (FYI searched I found a company in BKK which supplies these by internet search. Emailed them but to date no reply. Will go there when I am next in town). For now my bedside switch panel has one open spot. Many many thanks to you all for such wonderful suggestions and quick answers. Really appreciated. Alan

[alaninkarachi]

Just a quick update. Got reply from address above.

Found another one http://www.faifathai.net/contactus.template.php?lang=en&headername=Contact%20Us&headername=

Will try again.

Again many thanks for support. Great forum