Any Legal Issues With Casually Helping A Friend With English For No Money?

[manarak]

JT, do it in your home.

Immigration needs a search warrant to enter your home to legally record any illegal work taking place.

No way they will get a search warrant just because some idiot tells lies about you giving English lessons for profit.

Edited May 2, 2013 by manarak

[MAJIC]

If two people where talking in English,with no note books or pens and pencils were in view,and one was verbally correcting the other,and occasionally introducing some new words,it would be a clever man who could prove one of the two was working,and not just having a conversation in English.

[Jingthing]

If two people where talking in English,with no note books or pens and pencils were in view,and one was verbally correcting the other,and occasionally introducing some new words,it would be a clever man who could prove one of the two was working,and not just having a conversation in English.

Of course. But supposing the English learner blabs about getting help with English to family and friends, which is only human.

[Tatsujin]

If two people where talking in English,with no note books or pens and pencils were in view,and one was verbally correcting the other,and occasionally introducing some new words,it would be a clever man who could prove one of the two was working,and not just having a conversation in English.

It doesn't need a clever man. It just needs 1 x Thai official who can twist the laws to suit themselves. "Work" is so poorly defined it can encompass anything they want it to.

But hey, each to their own. Being ignorant of the law here is no defense.

[utalkin2me]

I think there are plenty of people, especially retirees who would be happy to do very visible and organized volunteer work but shy away from it due to the bizarre work permit and work restrictions here. Thailand loses and so do the potential volunteers.

Seriously, I think the Thai government should look into formally allowing retired expats to openly volunteer to do most anything.

I quit my volunteering position because it seemed like such a hassle after they approached me about going official. Some may say I just wasn't committed enough.... ok, fair enough. I was new in Thailand, making friends, being introduced to some great food and the students were learning. Seemed like win win. But that is the story. Anyway, I agree with you.

Edited May 2, 2013 by utalkin2me

[davejones]

According to some of you paranoid lot, I need a work permit if I make my own food. Some of you have lost the plot.

[Jingthing]

According to some of you paranoid lot, I need a work permit if I make my own food. Some of you have lost the plot.

That reminds me of the time a 7-11 clerk saw my bag of groceries from another store and said that was the first time she ever saw a f-rang that cooks.

My response was: Shhhhhh! Don't turn me in!

Edited May 2, 2013 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

It's not "work" so no, no legal issues.

It is work as per the legal definition

Does one need a work permit to be a good friend, because sometimes it's a lot of work.

Anyhow, I think JT is exercising the duties/prerogatives of friendship in the OP and not work.

Edited May 2, 2013 by lannarebirth

[PCA]

Recognized that I am bored so I clicked this thread but not enough I even read the whole lot. First question came up was whether OP was bored as well. Second one was does he want to teach something or is he looking for a lesson. Next instead of 3rd to not sounding military was he scared or better said is he. Then in case all answered to his favor does he actually qualify to teach or is it a translation job.

Now in case he is just scared but with genuine intentions he has 2 options with the same result:

Do your lesson at Starbucks, wear suit and tie and insist your student to wear school uniform - nobody will care.

Do teach in privacy and pray that the CIA is not out hunting you for deciding on your own about what is right/wrong/good/bad - nobody will care.

So if you are a teacher you should be skilled in the ask-answer game because if you are then somebody will ask you and not the other way around.

If you think you can help then do it but if you are in fear then stay at home alone. You were already asked for help so what you gonna do teacher?

[innerspace]

The definition is along the line of "exerting effort or utilising knowledge". So everything is included and needs a work permit. Including talking and working if they so desire. Volunteer is no exception, had signs up after the tsunami telling all volunteers to make sure they had a work permit! But in reality unless you seriously upset a high official no risk in your situation.

[lannarebirth]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

[Jingthing]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

Please tell me you're joking.

[lannarebirth]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

Please tell me you're joking.

True story, swear to God, May Thaksin be struck dead by lightening if I made it up.

[Naam]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

Please tell me you're joking.

True story, swear to God, May Thaksin be struck dead by lightening if I made it up.

summary: JT is doomed. it is not only deportation he has to fear because first come 15 years of hard labour in a Thai coal mine located deep down in the "restive" south.

[luckyluke]

Interesting readings ( I think) :

http://thailand-insights.blogspot.com/2012/09/can-i-redecorate-my-girlfriends-house.html

and :

Under Thai Law BE2522 foreigners are prohibited to engage in any of the following types of work in Thailand:

Manual work;
Work
in agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishing excluding
specialized work in each particular branch or farm supervision;
Bricklaying, carpentry or other construction works;
Woodcarving;
Driving
a mechanically propelled carrier or driving a non-mechanically
propelled vehicle, excluding international aircraft piloting;
Shop attending;
Auction;
Supervising, auditing or giving services in accounting excluding internal auditing on occasions;
Cutting or polishing jewelry;
Haircutting, hairdressing or beauty treatment;
Cloth weaving by hand;
Weaving of mats or making products from reeds, rattan, hemp, straw or bamboo;
Making of Sa paper by hand;
Lacquer ware making;
Making of Thai musical instruments;
Nielloware making;
Making of products from gold, silver or gold-copper alloy;
Bronze ware making;
Making of Thai dolls;
Making of mattresses or quilt blankets;
Alms bowl casting;
Making of silk products by hand;
Casting of Buddha images;
Knife making;
Making of paper or cloth umbrellas;
Shoemaking;
Hat making;
Brokerage or agency excluding brokerage or agency in international trade business;
Engineering
work in a civil engineering branch concerning designing and
calculation, organization, research, planning, testing, construction
supervision or advising excluding specialized work;
Architectural work concerning designing, drawing of plans, estimating, construction directing or advising;
Garment making;
Pottery or ceramic ware making;
Cigarette making by hand;
Guide or conducting sightseeing tours;
Street vending;
Typesetting of Thai characters by hand;
Drawing and twisting silk thread by hand;
Office or secretarial work;
Legal or lawsuit services.

(Source: Alien Occupational Control Division, Department of Employment Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare.)
The
official definition of “work” in Thailand is "to engage in work by
exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of
wages or other benefits" (Source: Thai Ministry of Labour). Punishments
for those defying the law include fines, imprisonment, deportation and
possible blacklisting thus preventing return to Thailand. "

[Naam]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

and his daughters were sold into slavery to the Sultan of Timbuktu.

[Neeranam]

Are there any possible legal issues with this, work permit wise? Visa issues (for retirement visa/no work rule)?

technically you would need a WP, but if no one says anything you should be ok, so I would be suggesting to your aquaintance to keep their mouth shut about what you are doing

This is wrong. It's not work, so you don't need a work permit. I help friends all the time, and they help me. That's a normal part for socialising. It's certainly not work. Obviously there's a grey area between help and work, but stop overthinking these things. No-one cares if you help a friend with grammar. We'd all have to sit home alone frightened to talk to anyone if we needed a WP to talk to a friend.

Get some common sense into this debate. Immigration aren't out to get people for helping friends.

Jeez.

Talking to someone is consulting, by the legal definition it is absolutely 100% work

and so is brushing your teeth and having sex with your wife.

I wouldnt go that far but i have heard of people having trouble with the police for painting their own (wifes really) house

Be smart and reasonable but dont be naive

What kind of trouble?

Over the years, I've taught many people English privately and never even thought about it being legal or not. Some high ranking policemen, a woman in the tax office, even teach a woman I've known for 9 years in the Dept. of Labour! No one cares. What would be the fine anyway a thousand baht?

Edited May 3, 2013 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

I know a guy that did 14 months in the IDC for giving a lost stranger directions, so for God's sake be careful.

Don't believe a word.

[lannarebirth]

Interesting readings ( I think) :

http://thailand-insights.blogspot.com/2012/09/can-i-redecorate-my-girlfriends-house.html

and :

Under Thai Law BE2522 foreigners are prohibited to engage in any of the following types of work in Thailand:

Manual work;

Work

in agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishing excluding

specialized work in each particular branch or farm supervision;

Bricklaying, carpentry or other construction works;

Woodcarving;

Driving

a mechanically propelled carrier or driving a non-mechanically

propelled vehicle, excluding international aircraft piloting;

Shop attending;

Auction;

Supervising, auditing or giving services in accounting excluding internal auditing on occasions;

Cutting or polishing jewelry;

Haircutting, hairdressing or beauty treatment;

Cloth weaving by hand;

Weaving of mats or making products from reeds, rattan, hemp, straw or bamboo;

Making of Sa paper by hand;

Lacquer ware making;

Making of Thai musical instruments;

Nielloware making;

Making of products from gold, silver or gold-copper alloy;

Bronze ware making;

Making of Thai dolls;

Making of mattresses or quilt blankets;

Alms bowl casting;

Making of silk products by hand;

Casting of Buddha images;

Knife making;

Making of paper or cloth umbrellas;

Shoemaking;

Hat making;

Brokerage or agency excluding brokerage or agency in international trade business;

Engineering

work in a civil engineering branch concerning designing and

calculation, organization, research, planning, testing, construction

supervision or advising excluding specialized work;

Architectural work concerning designing, drawing of plans, estimating, construction directing or advising;

Garment making;

Pottery or ceramic ware making;

Cigarette making by hand;

Guide or conducting sightseeing tours;

Street vending;

Typesetting of Thai characters by hand;

Drawing and twisting silk thread by hand;

Office or secretarial work;

Legal or lawsuit services.

(Source: Alien Occupational Control Division, Department of Employment Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare.)

The

official definition of “work” in Thailand is "to engage in work by

exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of

wages or other benefits" (Source: Thai Ministry of Labour). Punishments

for those defying the law include fines, imprisonment, deportation and

possible blacklisting thus preventing return to Thailand. "

If you don't mind, I'm going to add a few more things to that list, print it out, frame it and present it to my wife.

[Andre0720]

Are foreigners allowed to work in Thailand?

Yes, foreigners are allowed to work in Thailand if you have a valid visa, a work permit and is employed with an occupation that does not violate the Alien Employment Act.

If you are a foreigner and you intend to work in Thailand, you are subject to the Alien Employment Act, which requires you to have a work permit to be issued by the Department of Employment, Ministry of Labor, or unless it falls within an exception of the said Act.

The term “work” in Thai law is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other form of compensation. Even volunteer or charity work requires a work permit in Thailand.

According to Thai law, foreigners can work in the country butfactors such as the national security, as well as the need of alien labor for the development of the country is being considered. Thai nationals are still to be given priority.

Under the Alien Employment Act, the following occupations are closed to foreigners and is reserved for Thai nationals only:

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/working-thailand.php

Just make sure you do not make any enemies...

[SteeleJoe]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this: there are thousands of people GETTING PAID to teach English - not in any covert fashion - without a work permit.

I think someone getting into trouble for teaching a friend is about as likely as, say, doing 14 months in IDC (or even a day) for giving directions.

Edited May 3, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Tatsujin]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this: there are thousands of people GETTING PAID to teach English - not in any covert fashion - without a work permit. I think someone getting into trouble for teaching a friend is about as likely as, say, doing 14 months in IDC (or even a day) for giving directions.

Yes, that's fine, but it goes back to what I said earlier. Know the law, then choose what to do. Just cos everyone else does it (with the tacit approval of those in power) doesn't mean it's legal.

[Tatsujin]

Interesting readings ( I think) :

http://thailand-insights.blogspot.com/2012/09/can-i-redecorate-my-girlfriends-house.html

and :

Under Thai Law BE2522 foreigners are prohibited to engage in any of the following types of work in Thailand:

Manual work;

Work

in agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishing excluding

specialized work in each particular branch or farm supervision;

Bricklaying, carpentry or other construction works;

Woodcarving;

Driving

a mechanically propelled carrier or driving a non-mechanically

propelled vehicle, excluding international aircraft piloting;

Shop attending;

Auction;

Supervising, auditing or giving services in accounting excluding internal auditing on occasions;

Cutting or polishing jewelry;

Haircutting, hairdressing or beauty treatment;

Cloth weaving by hand;

Weaving of mats or making products from reeds, rattan, hemp, straw or bamboo;

Making of Sa paper by hand;

Lacquer ware making;

Making of Thai musical instruments;

Nielloware making;

Making of products from gold, silver or gold-copper alloy;

Bronze ware making;

Making of Thai dolls;

Making of mattresses or quilt blankets;

Alms bowl casting;

Making of silk products by hand;

Casting of Buddha images;

Knife making;

Making of paper or cloth umbrellas;

Shoemaking;

Hat making;

Brokerage or agency excluding brokerage or agency in international trade business;

Engineering

work in a civil engineering branch concerning designing and

calculation, organization, research, planning, testing, construction

supervision or advising excluding specialized work;

Architectural work concerning designing, drawing of plans, estimating, construction directing or advising;

Garment making;

Pottery or ceramic ware making;

Cigarette making by hand;

Guide or conducting sightseeing tours;

Street vending;

Typesetting of Thai characters by hand;

Drawing and twisting silk thread by hand;

Office or secretarial work;

Legal or lawsuit services.

(Source: Alien Occupational Control Division, Department of Employment Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare.)

The

official definition of “work” in Thailand is "to engage in work by

exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of

wages or other benefits" (Source: Thai Ministry of Labour). Punishments

for those defying the law include fines, imprisonment, deportation and

possible blacklisting thus preventing return to Thailand. "

If you don't mind, I'm going to add a few more things to that list, print it out, frame it and present it to my wife.

That's what I do . . . "sorry love, can't wash the car, cut the grass, paint the house, take out the garbage etc cos it's against the law. I'll be happy to help out more when they change the laws here, but until then, jai yen yen teelak."

[SteeleJoe]

Yes, that's fine, but it goes back to what I said earlier. Know the law, then choose what to do. Just cos everyone else does it (with the tacit approval of those in power) doesn't mean it's legal.

No, it's not legal. That was clear in my post and is not the point.

The tacit approval bit is what is relevant. As is the fact that you (or the Labor Department) could go into any shopping mall and find a reputable language school (brightly lit, big glass front, adverts - not hidden) with illegal teachers - what does that indicate about the likelihood of getting busted for conversations with a friend?

* I can only hope this won't turn into one of those threads filled with bizarrely vehement screeds about ESL teachers...

Edited May 3, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Neeranam]

I'll ask the father of one of my students the next time I'm at her house. He's in the Royal Thai Police - in charge of 7 provinces, he'll surely know.

If anyone has, in fact been arrested for working without a work permit it will be because they have upset someone with a bit of influence.

[anon467367354]

if i can't go to a hospital and volunteer to hold babies that are either sick or have been abandoned without a work permit, I wouldn't think you could volunteer helping someone else. If they won't let you help a Thai for free why would they let you help someone who is not Thai for free?

[Xonax]

He said helping out on a regular basis. Look, there is no problem here, hardly a potential problem.... but you do need a work permit to volunteer English lessons - technically. It makes sense too, as I said, anybody could just claim "i'm a volunteer" if teaching English, no matter if they were being paid or not. If you have regular lessons, in a lesson type setting (ie people can see you), you can potentially (however unlikely) have problems.

No, you can't "claim you are a volunteer" if you are being paid. The very definition of volunteer means "no payment"

What about receiving little brown envelopes or donations instead of payment then? Seems to be widely accepted in this country!

Edited May 3, 2013 by Xonax

[NomadJoe]

Are there any possible legal issues with this, work permit wise? Visa issues (for retirement visa/no work rule)?

technically you would need a WP, but if no one says anything you should be ok, so I would be suggesting to your aquaintance to keep their mouth shut about what you are doing

This is wrong. It's not work, so you don't need a work permit. I help friends all the time, and they help me. That's a normal part for socialising. It's certainly not work. Obviously there's a grey area between help and work, but stop overthinking these things. No-one cares if you help a friend with grammar. We'd all have to sit home alone frightened to talk to anyone if we needed a WP to talk to a friend.

Get some common sense into this debate. Immigration aren't out to get people for helping friends.

Jeez.

Talking to someone is consulting, by the legal definition it is absolutely 100% work

100% Correct.

[NomadJoe]

Are there any possible legal issues with this, work permit wise? Visa issues (for retirement visa/no work rule)?

technically you would need a WP, but if no one says anything you should be ok, so I would be suggesting to your aquaintance to keep their mouth shut about what you are doing

This is wrong. It's not work, so you don't need a work permit. I help friends all the time, and they help me. That's a normal part for socialising. It's certainly not work. Obviously there's a grey area between help and work, but stop overthinking these things. No-one cares if you help a friend with grammar. We'd all have to sit home alone frightened to talk to anyone if we needed a WP to talk to a friend.

Get some common sense into this debate. Immigration aren't out to get people for helping friends.

Jeez.

dj, if you think there is an ounce of common sense in Thai immigration and labor laws then you have not been in Thailand for very long.

Firstly, you need to remove the word "volunteer" or "not being paid" from the discussion, as this is completely irrelevant. Technically speaking the OP is working as per Thai law, but as pointed out it is very, very unlikely they will run into any problems. After meeting dozens of foreigners in Thailand that work at home without getting a WP or business visa, it is clear to me that this is the norm. Very few people have problems, but remember that if the police receive a complaint, they must act. This also happens a lot. Imagine the OP sitting at the table teaching English to the friend and the police (immigration, labor, whoever) walk in. The burden of proof will be on him. Yes, he may be able to explain his way out of it, but it will mean going down to the police station for several hours and may require a small donation of tea money. This also happens. An acquaintance of mine was just arrested for picking up ciggy butts outside his establishment. He has a WP as managing director. Where is the "common sense" in that?

Phuket Gazette's website is down but when it goes back up I will post some responses from immigration and labor about questions just like these. The responses were very interesting.

Edited May 3, 2013 by NomadJoe

[lannarebirth]

Are there any possible legal issues with this, work permit wise? Visa issues (for retirement visa/no work rule)?

technically you would need a WP, but if no one says anything you should be ok, so I would be suggesting to your aquaintance to keep their mouth shut about what you are doing

This is wrong. It's not work, so you don't need a work permit. I help friends all the time, and they help me. That's a normal part for socialising. It's certainly not work. Obviously there's a grey area between help and work, but stop overthinking these things. No-one cares if you help a friend with grammar. We'd all have to sit home alone frightened to talk to anyone if we needed a WP to talk to a friend.

Get some common sense into this debate. Immigration aren't out to get people for helping friends.

Jeez.

Talking to someone is consulting, by the legal definition it is absolutely 100% work

100% Correct.

If that's the case I am owed a damned considerable amount of money for my cvonsulting. Especially given the quality of the pearls of wisdom I dispense. No, I will not take a check.