Define Poverty - in a Thailand context ...

[David48]

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Define Poverty - in a Thailand context ...

There are lot's of dictionary definitions as to what we describe poverty as ... this one raised my eyebrow.

the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions *

If say, you were living in the UK, NZ or the USA in government housing, without a car, relying off food stamps/charity occasionally for meals ... surely you would be living 'below the poverty line'.

But that level of government support hardly exists here in Thailand.

One of the houses on the Farm in which live 3 adults and a child.

The child in that house got bitten by a neighbour's dog ... but Thailand's rustic Health System didn't fail him. Five visits to the local clinic at a minimum or nil cost. Though, should something more serious or elective in nature, his future looks less bright.

Borrowed shoes, borrowed bike ... living on borrowed time?

That said, I would contend that many in Thailand, even though they don't have as many shiny things in the closet that we have in Western Society are, in many cases, much happier because their material expectations have not been raised.

Within in a Thailand context - how do you Define Poverty ...

*Webster

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[benalibina]

Loss of face.

[muythai2013]

I define poverty as someone who lacks happiness, and I grew up poor as hell before people jump on me.

[pigeonjake]

hi david,

first you all no im not good with words so i hope i come across as i hope,

you have a good point david, i said tonite on another post that there is poverty in thailand, some live in a tin shed like you show, i have a block built pieon loft,

but is there poverty the same as we see poverty, they seam happy in there tin shed, they have rice to eat and if the man or lady for that matter go out hunting or getting frogs,land crabs to eat, are they living in poverty, in the west we would say yes,

but in thailand there are many like this,

were would they put the poverty line?

and why would they put the poverty line, if they were living under a bridge, like ive sean in bkk,?

its a tough question david, and i for one wouldnt want to try and answer more then i have,,lol,

jake

[weegee]

Good post Dave....the way i see it is, completely covered in the first photo of your post,....of the house...you cant help people who wont get off their bum and help themselves. Take a look at the rubbish lying around that house, and ask yourself (as most of us do)....why dont they take a bit of pride, and at least clean up the area they live in. It doesnt take long and is not much of a effort to do that.....that would be a start.

[muythai2013]

I mention Happiness earlier, It's such a difficult subject.

I knew some very happy and some extremely unhappy rich people, one strung himself up with a rope last year.

Have a good friend jin, he was a Gold medallist in the Asian games years ago and lives in Klong Thoy, when I stayed in his shack it was to small to fully stretch out and the whole area was like something from a movie, I was warned not to come there alone.

Jin and his wife are always happy, money certainly helps relieve the pressures in life but cannot assure happiness, so that's why I don't define wealth in money.

Edited June 13, 2013 by muythai2013

[theblether]

Poverty is a lack of choice, there's nothing more debilitating and demoralizing than having that lack of choice.

Money only brings one thing, and that is choice........and even then it's no guarantee of happiness.

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Edited June 13, 2013 by theblether

[aTomsLife]

Interesting post. This point strikes me the most, too: the state of one who lacks a usual or socially acceptable amount of money or material possessions.

Upon returning to the U.S., in comparison to SEA (and places like Haiti) I'd be extremely hard pressed to let someone tell me they live in poverty. But then there's that term 'socially acceptable'. In this case, poverty can be seen as directly linked with dignity. If others around are without material comforts, then one doesn't feel impoverished.

Paradoxically then, as Thailand develops, it will also become increasingly impoverished -- as poor Thais will see more and more often the things with which they go without.

[habfan]

Good post Dave....the way i see it is, completely covered in the first photo of your post,....of the house...you cant help people who wont get off their bum and help themselves. Take a look at the rubbish lying around that house, and ask yourself (as most of us do)....why dont they take a bit of pride, and at least clean up the area they live in. It doesnt take long and is not much of a effort to do that.....that would be a start.

Actually other than the ceramic pots surrounding the rickety ban it appears to be pretty much rubbish free.

[lsk]

Poverty? I work an menial job back in Oz and earn more than most respectable Thais could only imagine.

But I feel the most rich and satisfied when I spend time with relatives up north.

P.s. The Thai Gov do take care of their people. Everything from milk for the young ones to an bypass for grandpa.

All with no intrusive taxation.

[David48]

Poverty is a lack of choice, there's nothing more debilitating and demoralizing than having that lack of choice.

Money only brings one thing, choice........and even then it's no guarantee of happiness.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last point ... "Money only brings one thing, choice"

For some it's a choice between a Taxi or a Song-tehw.

For others a choice between Whistler or Bora Bora.

For me a choice between domestic or imported beer.

Money's sort of like electricity ... on it's own ... not particularly useful ... what options it can give ... an entirely different question.

Though, I maintain, certainly in Thailand, given a supportive Family Network ... lack of money and thus poverty is less intrusive influence in happy a happy life.

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[theblether]

Good point aTomsLife......in the UK there has been a heated debate about poverty

http://www.poverty.ac.uk/definitions-poverty

No one can agree the definition, I remember seeing a figure, I think was 30% below the average income meant you were living in poverty, so we had people with 50 inch TV's, two holidays a year and never going hungry being told they were below the poverty line.

Hmmm, can't be.

[Rsquared]

Difficult question to answer Dave.

I have seen that material possessions are of little concern to some Thais and yet they are still happy and I wouldn't consider them in poverty.

Family is a major factor for survival for Thais, so my guess would be that a Thai with no family or job (therefore no money) could be considered in poverty by Thai standards.

Cheers.

[joeaverage]

in my personal exprience is not being able to afford the genuine buffala di campanga and having to settle up for a local, less delicious version

[krisb]

I remember being told owning a refrigerator puts you in with 10% of the world. 90% don't own one.

Thailand specific, to me I'd say dirt floors, rusty tin walls, comes to mind. Similar to the pic you put up David. Then again my fil lives on his farm and chooses something similar when he has a nice house 5km away.

[villagefarang]

Poverty seems to me, to be a subjective measure and impossible to quantify or define exactly. Governments try to put a measurable number to it but it is a very relative thing in my opinion.

[David48]

Some excellent replies above ...

@ muythai2013 ... I can certainly agree that poverty can be of the heart or a black heart (Jai Dumb) as the Thai would describe it. I also grew up with little. We weren't in poverty, though no-one ever owned a car. I seemed to grow up happy with the love of both parents.

@ pj ... always great to have your responses ... a spell checker would kill your style!

@ weegee ... careful on there mate ... that rubbish is the house!

... don't know if I can get to them all.

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Edited June 13, 2013 by David48

[David48]

I remember being told owning a refrigerator puts you in with 10% of the world. 90% don't own one.

Thailand specific, to me I'd say dirt floors, rusty tin walls, comes to mind. Similar to the pic you put up David. Then again my fil lives on his farm and chooses something similar when he has a nice house 5km away.

Is, per chance, krisb, your Father-in-Law a Farmer?

The Farm Father, and every Farmer that I know sleep next to their crop, often in nothing better then lean-to's (shacks) to protect their crop/pond etc from their countrymen ...

EDITED to add ... just read that he is a Farmer ...

So to add to that. have a read of this recent post in the Farming Forum

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Edited June 13, 2013 by David48

[weegee]

Dave....thats the thing that really depresses me, when i see the humpies they live in....All thats needed is for someone with a bit of spare cash, to help out with straightening out the place with some new tin etc...slowely they will go forward....like here where i am. All the humpies are starting to disappear, and being replaced with small but functional brick houses....

[David48]

Poverty seems to me, to be a subjective measure and impossible to quantify or define exactly. Governments try to put a measurable number to it but it is a very relative thing in my opinion.

VF ... I agree.

I know that you have lived here half your life and you have seen the Culture from a unique perspective, so maybe a different question for you.

Do you think that the lack of material wealth is at partially compensated for by the simple pleasures that can be found in Thailand?

Those pleasures, combined with the Thai sense of 'Sanok' (fun in everything you do) address some of the balance?

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[Kitsune]

I dont see what's your problem with that definition

Socially acceptable means by the society you live in, societal standards are different so the definition works for any country

[manarak]

After I commented in another thread on the topic of poverty, saying that the lack of currency is not a sufficient criteria to put someone into the poor category, I also wondered about a good definition of poverty.

The definition given in the OP of persons being poor because they lack "socially unacceptable" wealth disturbs me and gets me thinking. The social definition leads to bullshit such as children who don't boast an iPhone at school are considered poor.

On the other hand, "poor" certainly means lack of money.

I do have quite precise ideas about how wealth/income should be distributed in society, and I affirm the need for a society to have "poor" people within it.

But being poor does not automatically mean being in distress.

So I think it is important to distinguish the poor (who can fend for themselves and subsist) from the distressed poor (who need help).

If being poor needs a clear-cut definition, I'd say income and wealth need to be taken into account, as well as the number of persons depending on that income and wealth.

So for each group of interdependent persons (families), take the sum of the net worth, plus the sum of income times ten, divided by the number of persons.

Applying that stat to the whole society, I guess the lower 20% should be considered poor.

I think there is nothing wrong with nominal poverty.

As I said, I believe a society needs poor people.

What needs to be done is providing equal opportunities and giving proper support to the distressed poor.

[David48]

I dont see what's your problem with that definition

Socially acceptable means by the society you live in, societal standards are different so the definition works for any country

That's an interesting viewpoint and I can see how you spin it to be relative within Thailand.

Maybe, it's just that many of us, who come from more materially affluent backgrounds

then what I refer to in the OP, make a comparison between what they left 'back home'

and what they witness in Thailand today.

Plus, given the ostentatious display of wealth on show in some Thai Cities there is a

wide gulf materially between the 'haves' and 'have-nots'.

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[chrisinth]

Repeating other posters David, good, tricky question........

To me, my definition of poverty would have to be, someone with resources not sufficient to meet a need.

This is not just a financial issue IMHO............................

[David48]

In the OP I said that ... "I would contend that many in Thailand, even though they don't have as many shiny things in the closet that we have in Western Society are, in
many cases, much happier because their material expectations have not been raised."

I maintain that there is a strong element of truth still in that.

The Farm kids are dirt poor, as are some of their 'Uncles' and 'Cousins'

But there are ways to, in part, compensate for that lack of material wealth.

A simple game being played outside that shack.

that music btw is not an overdub.

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[Jasun]

No money in the bank, no rice in the pantry.

[soi41]

In the OP I said that ... "I would contend that many in Thailand, even though they don't have as many shiny things in the closet that we have in Western Society are, in

many cases, much happier because their material expectations have not been raised."

I maintain that there is a strong element of truth still in that.

The Farm kids are dirt poor, as are some of their 'Uncles' and 'Cousins'

But there are ways to, in part, compensate for that lack of material wealth.

A simple game being played outside that shack.

that music btw is not an overdub.

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All good until they die from an treatable illness or only can low paid jobs, due to lack of education. That is where

"poor but happy" stops being charming!

I agree with the sentiment, that the kids in the villages can live a good life, happy in their own right with or without money, but everyone here is forgetting the urban poor. On your next visit to the Big Mango, try to go to the slums of Bangkok, and you will get a different picture of how "charming" poverty is !

[manarak]

All good until they die from an treatable illness

Please define precisely "treatable illness", how much a cure is allowed to cost and what a human life in general is worth, please.

[Cluey]

Yes those that think the poor should be helped will always define it as the dictionary does, as a relative term.

From that point of view the whole world is a bottomless pit of endless need, absolutely impossible - and from an ecological point of view undesirable - to try to solve it, since what we in the developed world call "normal" is actually a completely unrealistic level of consumption for the whole world's population.

So objectively and realistically the universal "poverty line" is shelter from the elements and sufficient food to avoid malnutrition, and treatment of common illnesses to the extent society can afford.

However even this minimal level of support if actually applied world-wide would probably result in a completely even-more-unsustainable explosion of human populations in exactly those locations that can least afford it.

We forget that humans are part of nature, mostly animal with a little layer of fancy processing power added on top.

Truly being kind and responsible for the care of humanity in the context of limited resources would actually require a degree of rational ruthlessness rarely seen and never accepted in history.

So we muddle on trying to solve problems from a short-term point of view and usually cause more unintended consequences than what we help.

[meatboy]

i have given up with most lately,we have had builders who after the first job want double and its not only us but everybody else.then there's the blokes that work on the building sites who are lucky to get 300bht.a day,then there are the ones that got nothing and never will because they would rather sit on their arse begging.we have to look for builders all the time that will give you a fair price,we always check them out with others that have had them maybe once or twice,then there are the ones that always seem to want a bit extra,like the labourer doing a few jobs after work,first job we had done 4 evenings 8hrs in total and we were happy what he done we gave him 1200bht.he asked for 1000 actually he worked hard.so the next job not so hard but he spent only 3hrs on the job but left a youg boy to do what he should have been doing plus the job was not up to standad,asked the wife for 1600 i told the wf give it to him but dont come back,well he hasnt been back because he done it to everybody else now he has no work.then there is the odd job man who works on the moo bans for the owners,tidying up,cutting the grass,and tighting up a few scews here and there,2 evenings x 2hrs each cutting our grass,our grass cutter,our petrol and drinks if he wants,we give him 400 bht ask him come and do some tidying up arround the garden trimming mostly,well never to be seen again.there are farmers who work a dam site hard and get nothing in return they seem to be happy with a fag and a bottle in the evening and thats as best they will get,after these have gone what is there left?just look around you and see the future workers nothing but ding-a-lings,thugs,and most of all ones that have no respect for their parents i have 2out of those 3 living by me.