The Farang Cultural Divide

[richard_smith237]

I see more similarities than differences...

The effort to be polite and show respect is unmistakable in any culture, as is its absence.

Minor idiosyncrasies aside our cultures overlap more than many of us care to recognise. The reason I get along well with many Thai's is that I follow the same good manners I was brought up with, the reason many of my Thai friends get along with me is that they also follow the same good manners they were brought up with. For this very same reason I think some Thai's and some Westerners nothing more than ill educated pigs who make no effort in being considerate of others.

[boosta]

Not sure if you're posing a question or implying something I don't understand. I understood that in Thai, it's polite to address by profession, as in Kuhn Kruu, Kuhn Moh etc. Is that what you're implying?

-

Yes part of what I see as the cause of some foreigners interpreting Thai's use of their language as disrespectful is that we think most of the time it's "polite" to use someone's name.

While Thais will often use an "objectifying" word to substitute for that, without meaning any disrespect.

My SO telling the new maid "The old guy likes to eat toast for breakfast" (Geh chawp gin toast dton chao) isn't disrespectful. In fact I'd have to really make an effort to train the maid to use my name, because by her cultural/linguistic lights, it would be impertinent, presumptious for her to do so, she'd feel more comfortable with "Nai" or "Paw".

"Farang" just happens to be one of those words used to substitute for us where we would expect to see a name.

[boosta]

I see more similarities than differences...

The effort to be polite and show respect is unmistakable in any culture, as is its absence.

Minor idiosyncrasies aside our cultures overlap more than many of us care to recognise. The reason I get along well with many Thai's is that I follow the same good manners I was brought up with, the reason many of my Thai friends get along with me is that they also follow the same good manners they were brought up with. For this very same reason I think some Thai's and some Westerners nothing more than ill educated pigs who make no effort in being considerate of others.

-

And many foreigners here feel so superior that they make no effort to actually be polite, associate with Thais that weren't taught many manners, and act in other ways that cause the Thais around them to actually feel disrespect.

Living in that atmosphere all the time they naturally perceive disrespect in most of their interactions, but focus on the one word as the symptom.

They may also think that just because they're paying for everything for all the Thais around them that that in itself causes them to deserve more respect.

[Kitsune]

Is that what we should all be working on ?

-

I don't think anyone's advocating for us adopting Thai cultural values. Just not using our own as a "right vs wrong" lens used to cast judgment, venting moral outrage over stuff that usually isn't important or doesn't affect us anyway.

When it is a genuine moral issue by objective standards and it does affect us, and we then want to make it our business to try to affect change, the go out and try to do so by communicating with the Thais, and good luck to you.

But B&M'ing about it here really doesn't accomplish much does it.

And saying "Thais are disgusting" because you saw someone picking their nose or spitting in the street is - well. . .

words fail me.

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

[boosta]

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

-

One of us is very confused, I've never advocated for any of the above. I was responding to this:

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

[Kitsune]

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

-

One of us is very confused, I've never advocated for any of the above. I was responding to this:

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

And I was told to use thai grid instead of farang one ...

so I did

[Naam]

Wow you know better than the Thai themselves !

-

Have you personally seen his ID card?

If so, then I'm holding to my claim that one of the other factors is the cause of this bizarre claim.

In the meantime I'm calling BS on his claim to being Thai.

but isn't his selected forum handle hard evidence that he is Thai? who else but a Thai would use the Thinglish expression "AnotherOneAmerican"?

[Gsxrnz]

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

-

One of us is very confused, I've never advocated for any of the above. I was responding to this:

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

And I was told to use thai grid instead of farang one ...

so I did

Boosta = are you any more enlightened by her reply? I'm not!

[klubex99]

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

-

One of us is very confused, I've never advocated for any of the above. I was responding to this:

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

And I was told to use thai grid instead of farang one ...

so I did

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads.

But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

Edited June 15, 2013 by klubex99

[Gsxrnz]

Wow you know better than the Thai themselves !

-

Have you personally seen his ID card?

If so, then I'm holding to my claim that one of the other factors is the cause of this bizarre claim.

In the meantime I'm calling BS on his claim to being Thai.

but isn't his selected forum handle hard evidence that he is Thai? who else but a Thai would use the Thinglish expression "AnotherOneAmerican"?

Hmmmm.........if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, there's a good chance it's a midget goose.

[MrHammer]

Some cultural traits are just worse than others - on an absolute measure

[Slip]

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

-

One of us is very confused, I've never advocated for any of the above. I was responding to this:

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

I don't think it's you Boosta.

[boosta]

Some cultural traits are just worse than others - on an absolute measure

-

Yes, "life" is a pretty objective criteria, but some say "human" life is overvalued compared to other species.

Here's another example that most in the west consider "objective" - one girl's "female circumcision" is another's "female genital mutilation".

Interesting recent article here from Indonesia: http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/a-tiny-cut-female-circumcision-in-south-east-asia/

[boosta]

Boosta = are you any more enlightened by her reply? I'm not!

-

But unlike most I'm quite accepting of being in a state of confusion, have realized more and more that I truly understand very very little.

[krisb]

 

News flash : Farang is not just used to make sure they got the right person, it is a replacement for the words person/lady/gentleman/man/etc

-

News flash - this is a common and no-disrespect-intended linguistic feature of the Thai language, they often use these "objectifying" words rather than each others' names, especially in relaxed informal contexts, you're just being overly sensitive.

Now it's quite possible the Thais around you have no respect for you, can't argue about that, but that doesn't make the term itself derogatory from a linguistic POV.

"Pee" - someone older, "Nong" someone younger

"Ouan" - the fat guy, "Geh" - the old guy (nothing disrespectful about either, except to overly sensitive farang)

"dTua lek" and "Noo" - the little one

Also relationship words - we do the same as Thais with "Granny" "Uncle" etc.

It's only disrespect if you tell them you don't like it and they continue to do so to your face, but even then more likely they just forget, old habits are hard to break.

 

News flash : Our very own Thai contributor AnotherOneAmerican who is I repeat THAI says that (and I quote) :

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Got to like this guy !

umm news flash, he ain't the only Thai on this site, there's actually quite a few.

[Kitsune]

Wow you know better than the Thai themselves !

-

Have you personally seen his ID card?

If so, then I'm holding to my claim that one of the other factors is the cause of this bizarre claim.

In the meantime I'm calling BS on his claim to being Thai.

but isn't his selected forum handle hard evidence that he is Thai? who else but a Thai would use the Thinglish expression "AnotherOneAmerican"?

exactly he says he's a lawyer here, see his posts

[David48]

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads.

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

Hey ... I just wanted to try out the cool new smilie here ...

.

[Kitsune]

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads.

Oh OK so it's fine to stare at people constantly, ignore their "sawadika", discriminate them per race and consider our own race is superior ?

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

Hey ... I just wanted to try out the cool new smilie here ...

.

love it

[MrHammer]

Some cultural traits are just worse than others - on an absolute measure

-

Yes, "life" is a pretty objective criteria, but some say "human" life is overvalued compared to other species.

Here's another example that most in the west consider "objective" - one girl's "female circumcision" is another's "female genital mutilation".

Interesting recent article here from Indonesia: http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/a-tiny-cut-female-circumcision-in-south-east-asia/

Of course, clearly an example of barbaric culture. I'm not one of those cultural relativists whom are largely responsible for the sorry state of affairs in Europe.

[Kitsune]

Some cultural traits are just worse than others - on an absolute measure

-

Yes, "life" is a pretty objective criteria, but some say "human" life is overvalued compared to other species.

Here's another example that most in the west consider "objective" - one girl's "female circumcision" is another's "female genital mutilation".

Interesting recent article here from Indonesia: http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/a-tiny-cut-female-circumcision-in-south-east-asia/

Of course, clearly an example of barbaric culture. I'm not one of those cultural relativists whom are largely responsible for the sorry state of affairs in Europe.

no Im not either, but are they really responsible for europe dismay?

[boosta]

Of course, clearly an example of barbaric culture. I'm not one of those cultural relativists whom are largely responsible for the sorry state of affairs in Europe.

-

Acceptable compromises have been reached with some groups for a purely ceremonial incision that doesn't actually prevent the girl from enjoying sex in the future.

I agree it's not a good practice from an objectively moral POV, which is why I used that as a relevant example.

However IMO neither is use of the term barbaric.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Not sure if you're posing a question or implying something I don't understand. I understood that in Thai, it's polite to address by profession, as in Kuhn Kruu, Kuhn Moh etc. Is that what you're implying?

-

Yes part of what I see as the cause of some foreigners interpreting Thai's use of their language as disrespectful is that we think most of the time it's "polite" to use someone's name.

While Thais will often use an "objectifying" word to substitute for that, without meaning any disrespect.

My SO telling the new maid "The old guy likes to eat toast for breakfast" (Geh chawp gin toast dton chao) isn't disrespectful. In fact I'd have to really make an effort to train the maid to use my name, because by her cultural/linguistic lights, it would be impertinent, presumptious for her to do so, she'd feel more comfortable with "Nai" or "Paw".

"Farang" just happens to be one of those words used to substitute for us where we would expect to see a name.

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

In Thailand.

The rudeness comes in using a word to describe a 'thing' without a modifier to turn the 'thing' into a person.

Gair/kow/pee/nai/nong/noo/lung are all forms to address a person.

Farang/man are forms to address a 'thing' or maybe an animal.

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

Edited June 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Kitsune]

Not sure if you're posing a question or implying something I don't understand. I understood that in Thai, it's polite to address by profession, as in Kuhn Kruu, Kuhn Moh etc. Is that what you're implying?

-

Yes part of what I see as the cause of some foreigners interpreting Thai's use of their language as disrespectful is that we think most of the time it's "polite" to use someone's name.

While Thais will often use an "objectifying" word to substitute for that, without meaning any disrespect.

My SO telling the new maid "The old guy likes to eat toast for breakfast" (Geh chawp gin toast dton chao) isn't disrespectful. In fact I'd have to really make an effort to train the maid to use my name, because by her cultural/linguistic lights, it would be impertinent, presumptious for her to do so, she'd feel more comfortable with "Nai" or "Paw".

"Farang" just happens to be one of those words used to substitute for us where we would expect to see a name.

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

In Thailand.

The rudeness comes in using a word to describe a 'thing' without a modifier to turn the 'thing' into a person.

Gair/kow/pee/nai/nong/noo/lung are all forms to address a person.

Farang/man are forms to address a 'thing' or maybe an animal.

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

oh you're back can you confirm you're thai, some people seem to doubt it

[boosta]

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

-

My point is that "Nai", "Pee" or "Lung" or even "Paw" by itself is not rude without the name part.

I am also specifically talking about the usage when referring to a third party, if it's obvious who's indicated and there's only one older person (fat person, farang person) in the room the name's usually dropped.

But the overall point is that the term "farang" is not in and of itself derogatory.

It can be used in a sarcastic derogatory way, like addressing someone directly using the word by itself, but I've personally only come across that in intimate situations ("ai farang" affectionately expressing frustration) or when someone is genuinely angry.

Edited June 15, 2013 by boosta

[benalibina]

Khon tang chaat = foreigner.

Only once i have been reffered to on that way.

By a massage woman.

[Tomtomtom69]

Here we go again

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

-

Which one is Kim?

She's the black girl talking to that big guy over there.

He's the Asian at the punch bowl.

He's the white guy with the jacket and tie.

None of these are rude in any culture I've lived in.

Hypersensitive politically correct people might be trying to make it so, but IMO they're idiots, such terms - as with farang - are only derogatory if that's the intention of the speaker, easily identified by the context and tone of voice.

Farang is a problematic term even if it is rarely used out of context by most people, whether Thais or other foreigners. I still prefer the American white guy/black guy/Asian guy etc. terminology to describe ethnic differences. There is a way of saying white person in Thai, which is "khon khao" which almost sounds better to me than "farang", the original meaning being someone from the west. However, for whatever bizarre reason the term khon khao is mostly relagated to describing ethnic differences in other countries rather than Thailand or by Thais living abroad particularly in the west.

However, I suspect that farang does not exclusively mean westerner anymore - more and more westerners and even Thais are using it to describe foreigners in general, particularly non-Asian foreigners. However, it could also be that most Thais and foreigners alike are somehow not aware of the presence of Indians, Chinese etc. visiting Thailand as people from those countries have always been seen as too poor to travel.

Also, I beg to differ about the opinion of the OP about fewer westerners visiting Thailand / being the traditional visitor base. In general, this is not true and even years ago many visitors came from other regional countries just in fewer numbers. More Aussies visited Thailand in 2012 than at anytime in the past and despite a slight decline in Q1 2013 I think 2013 will end up being the year with the most Aussie visitors of all time. All that is happening is that in ADDITION to the traditional markets in Europe, North America etc. and also include Japan, Singapore and other rich east Asian countries, middle Eastern, Chinese, Russian and Indian tourists are also coming.

May I also remind you that although Russians are strictly speaking not westerners, they are caucasians and to many Thais will still be referred to as farangs unless they know they are from Russia.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

-

My point is that "Nai", "Pee" or "Lung" or even "Paw" by itself is not rude without the name part.

I am also specifically talking about the usage when referring to a third party, if it's obvious who's indicated and there's only one older person (fat person, farang person) in the room the name's usually dropped.

But the overall point is that the term "farang" is not in and of itself derogatory.

It can be used in a sarcastic derogatory way, like addressing someone directly using the word by itself, but I've personally only come across that in intimate situations ("ai farang" affectionately expressing frustration) or when someone is genuinely angry.

You are wrong.

One of the problems with Thai language, is that very few foreigners meet Thais who can explain the meanings in English. Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

Edited June 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Kitsune]

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

-

My point is that "Nai", "Pee" or "Lung" or even "Paw" by itself is not rude without the name part.

I am also specifically talking about the usage when referring to a third party, if it's obvious who's indicated and there's only one older person (fat person, farang person) in the room the name's usually dropped.

But the overall point is that the term "farang" is not in and of itself derogatory.

It can be used in a sarcastic derogatory way, like addressing someone directly using the word by itself, but I've personally only come across that in intimate situations ("ai farang" affectionately expressing frustration) or when someone is genuinely angry.

You are wrong.

Thank you ! can you elaborate ?

[Tomtomtom69]

Khon tang chaat = foreigner.

Only once i have been reffered to on that way.

By a massage woman.

Khon tang chaat is used very regularly in Thailand I can assure you. I personally and my Thai spouse/friends use this term extensively. Not sure if this term, although more formal than farang is absolutely appropriate in all situations to describe a non-Thai person because incorrect assumptions can be made on the basis of this word. For example, while few westerners have been granted Thai citizenship, it would be offensive to refer to a westerner with Thai citizenship as a khon tang chaat, because clearly that person has been granted Thai citizenship and is thus Thai! However, the word farang is often used to differentiate between Thais and foreigners even though there is such a thing as a "farang Thai" as I have just described. Another equally borderline inappropriate word is "khaek" literally meaning "guest" but is used for anyone from the Indian subcontinent or who appears to be from there. No matter their citizenship or residency status in Thailand, Thai citizens of Indian origin are still referred to as "guests".

Perhaps as Thailand becomes more multicultural (it probably will in the next few decades) terms like white person/black person etc. will become more common than just farang but this remains to be seen.

[David48]

Farang is a problematic term <snip>

^^ ... I disagree with what you write but ... PLEASE ... can we not turn this into the 'Farang' debate.

I know that we haven't had that debate of the Forum for a few months ... but let the sleeping dog rest ... please!