Reciprocity is badly needed.

[ABCer]

http://www.un.or.th/documents/tmr-2011.pdf

140,581 Thai nationals residing in Germany

40,000 Thai nationals residing in the UK

in total:1,006,051 Thai persons were residing abroad

......

28,500 foreigner with old age/retirement (in total !!!) visa living in Thailand

11,400 spouses of Thai Nationals permanently residing in Thailand

total number of foreigners residing in Thailand is about 3 Mill (3000,000)

about 1 Mill. of them are from Myanmar !

estimated 1.3 million low-skilled migrants from Cambodia, the Lao People’s Democratic Republic andMyanmar

Thank you, Dieter, may I presume that in this stat figures all 2,3 M of those Burmese and Cambodjians are supporting their Thai wifes (often with her Thai kids and her Thai Family)??? Thanks for the figures anyway

Edited June 16, 2013 by ABCer

[ABCer]

For thais to visit western countries is easy. To live with their partner is a different matter on some occasions. Language tests, income/contract partner etc.

The problem in thailand for a not working but married foreigner ( with kids maybe)is that he/she only is of benefit for the thai economy and does not be recognized like that by the lawmakers. Westerners are regarding visahassles treated same as birmese, cambodians etc. Its a big business for the immigration dept and touroperators because of that. Westerners do not want to benefit from the thai social securitysystem. In the west the governments fear that the immigrants come there for a better financial life, social securitybenefits. Most of the, retired, westerners ,go to, stay in thailand for a happier life.

I would second this. If you will also admit West Expats are contributing to Thai economy not only on individual level AND come for a happier life. Question remains WHY Thai Gov't is treating them harshly?

[ABCer]

I'm all for reciprocity, and as soon as the Thais learn to drive a vehicle in a way that betrays the presence of a brain, and quit shooting people for trifles, and can learn the language of the host country enabling them to have a meaningful conversation, and have an education good for other careers than prostitution, massage, and cleaning, let's introduce it. The list actually goes on and on, just picked a few items. Until then, I'm afraid Thais continue to feature prominently on the list of undesirable immigrants to the West. Sorry if I'm too blunt, while you are trying hard to import your sweethart of the moment.

The Thais I know in my current country are professional engineers. One is director of engineering, and the other I interviewed for a job back in Thailand. Perhaps it's just the circles you keep.

SC

Many Thai Restaurants in Australia. Most are owned by Thais. And they employ both Thais and Auzzies. I also have seen many Thai massage joints. Can't tell much about them, but they are legit, pay taxes, make money, - whatever they do.

[benalibina]

For thais to visit western countries is easy. To live with their partner is a different matter on some occasions. Language tests, income/contract partner etc.The problem in thailand for a not working but married foreigner ( with kids maybe)is that he/she only is of benefit for the thai economy and does not be recognized like that by the lawmakers. Westerners are regarding visahassles treated same as birmese, cambodians etc. Its a big business for the immigration dept and touroperators because of that. Westerners do not want to benefit from the thai social securitysystem. In the west the governments fear that the immigrants come there for a better financial life, social securitybenefits. Most of the, retired, westerners ,go to, stay in thailand for a happier life.

I would second this. If you will also admit West Expats are contributing to Thai economy not only on individual level AND come for a happier life. Question remains WHY Thai Gov't is treating them harshly?

The million dollar question.

Fear ? Of what in this i do not know, but in the whole structure of thai society it plays a role, i think.

Receive only but not want to give ?

Employement of civil servants and the tourindustry that provides the transport for the visaruns. Economics thus ?

Thats all i can come up with for the moment. Maybe other posters have a clue.

[ABCer]

Such policies are set by each country according to what they want, as is their right. Nothing to do with reciprocity.

The US and UK love selling off their most valuable real estate to foreigners and realise this doesn't threaten their national sovereignty.

Many countries are trying to attract permanent immigrants with valuable skills and knowledge because they know this will help their entrepreneurial spirit and creativity.

Thailand wants to keep Thailand for "Thais" as if it were an ethnicity not just an arbitrary nationality.

Their loss.

I like your post, but fail to see

-how restricting my movements in and out freely

-how limiting my personal freedom to 90 days reporting

-how issuing visa for not more than 12 months

-how denying me the right to buy 1 acre of land to build a house

-how denying me to open my business

helps to keep Thailand for Thais?

Besides, "Thailand for Thais" from reciprocal point of view turns into "The rest of the World is not for Thais"... how would they like this?

[boosta]

We are charged a use fee per month/year for being here which pays for the bureacracy.

They keep tabs on where we are so they can locate us if we make any trouble.

They don't want foreigners owning any land except the minimum necessary for large-scale foreign investment purposes.

There is no reciprocal POV in this matter, each country makes up its own mind how it wants to deal with foreigners on its own soil. Some of our countries want to let more foreigners in for the interests of that country, cheap labor or humanitarian/human rights or whatever, up to each country to decide for itself.

We (not having PR or citizenship) are on notice that we can't count on being here long-term, only as long as the Thais want to allow us to stay, they can raise the bar however they like or ban us completely as the political winds shift.

Did someone teach you the world was fair when you were growing up? News flash - it isn't.

[boosta]

Thank you, Dieter, may I presume that in this stat figures all 2,3 M of those Burmese and Cambodjians are supporting their Thai wifes (often with her Thai kids and her Thai Family)??? Thanks for the figures anyway

I would second this. If you will also admit West Expats are contributing to Thai economy not only on individual level AND come for a happier life. Question remains WHY Thai Gov't is treating them harshly?

-

Expats living here do not contribute to the overall economy in any significant way - in other words, that matters to the people running the place.

The fact that we support poor upcountry peasants far above "their station" in Thai society is not a positive for them but an embarrassment.

We should be grateful they are so tolerant of us old fat sex addicts walking around in public with people they think aren't worthy to scrub their floors.

The criminal elements that have created their western-oriented blatant open sex industry have destroyed the international reputation of their fine country, and if / when they decide to clean up that mess and go back to keeping things discreet as it should be according to traditional Thai culture, getting rid of us will be part of the program.

They haven't decided to do it just yet, not because they need the money, more likely because they just don't care that much, or feel sorry for us.

But they are keeping their options open to be able to do so whenever they like rather than letting us put down roots legally.

[Soutpeel]

If we expats here were treated reciprocally the same way Thai emigrants in many countries are treated, we would be treated a whole lot worse than we actually are, believe you me!

The ritual I have to go through each year for a retirement extension here in Thailand pales into insignificance when compared to the tediously bureaucratic performance we had to go through in order to obtain the necessary visa for my Thai wife to accompany me on a 10-day trip back to the UK 4 years ago!!

Agreed not easy for Thais to visit the west. However, easier for Thais to get permanent residence status in the west than for westerners to get the same status here in Thailand...

Ok but let me pose this question....how many countries in the world that even offer retirement visa's hand out PR or citizenship to the retiree's ? my guess either none or not many...therefore for the most part TV's are asking for reciprocity, but one suspects there is no basis for this in the case of retiree's anywhere else in the world and if there is it will not be in many countries.

The fact is, which a lot of people forget is that Thailand is amongst only a handful of countires that even offer some form of retirement visa to start with, never mind giving said persons PR or citizenship. Does the the my second home program in malaysia lead to PR or citizenship ?...me thinks not

[Kitsune]

If we expats here were treated reciprocally the same way Thai emigrants in many countries are treated, we would be treated a whole lot worse than we actually are, believe you me!

The ritual I have to go through each year for a retirement extension here in Thailand pales into insignificance when compared to the tediously bureaucratic performance we had to go through in order to obtain the necessary visa for my Thai wife to accompany me on a 10-day trip back to the UK 4 years ago!!

Agreed not easy for Thais to visit the west. However, easier for Thais to get permanent residence status in the west than for westerners to get the same status here in Thailand...

Ok but let me pose this question....how many countries in the world that even offer retirement visa's hand out PR or citizenship to the retiree's ? my guess either none or not many...therefore for the most part TV's are asking for reciprocity, but one suspects there is no basis for this in the case of retiree's anywhere else in the world and if there is it will not be in many countries.

The fact is, which a lot of people forget is that Thailand is amongst only a handful of countires that even offer some form of retirement visa to start with, never mind giving said persons PR or citizenship. Does the the my second home program in malaysia lead to PR or citizenship ?...me thinks not

Spain switzerland, laos philipines ...on top of my head all offer retirement visa

Edited June 16, 2013 by Kitsune

[samran]

And Kitsune, how much do you need for a Spanish or Swiss retirement visa? Should Thailand reciprocate there?

[boosta]

But the whole premise is faulty, compare other countries all you like that doesn't have any bearing on Thailand's policies.

Even being a single parent, sole provider of Thai citizen children doesn't give me any rights to earn a living or purchase a house or even to remain here if I don't meet the income/saving criteria.

Sure potential human rights problem, if Thailand deported me but my kids didn't have the right to return to my home country we'd be forcibly separated.

I could try to take my case to the UN I suppose, but complaining about it here sure isn't going to do any good is it?

I've heard the same kind of thing happen with UK income requirements, and they are a LOT higher than Thailands. . .

[Soutpeel]

And Kitsune, how much do you need for a Spanish or Swiss retirement visa? Should Thailand reciprocate there?

But do the abovementioned offer PR/citizenship as well along with their retirement visa process ?....."Kisune" has only answered part of the question

[samran]

And boosta, you've hit the nail on the head. All the reciprocation stuff? To my mind it is a case of careful what you wish for.

[geriatrickid]

I believe the issue of reciprocity misses a defining characteristic of the types of long term visitors. The western type foreigners seeking a long term residency in Thailand are for the most part self sufficient and are of an older demographic. They are typically law abiding and taxpaying. They do not draw upon Thai social services. Their biggest gripe and it is one that is legitimate, is the onerous nature of the long stay visa process. This is quite different from the Thai demographic that would seek entry into the western countries. These Thais would draw upon the social services and would not be as financially secure as their western counterparts. Educated Thais and Thais of financial means have no problem obtaining visas. One of my aquaintances travels frequently to the USA and EU for her work and her visa process is a snap.

In respect to short term visitors, there is also a considerable difference between the western visitor and the Thai visitor. (For the sake of discussion, leave out the nefarious western and Thai group of people). The western short term visitors do not claim refugee status and for the most part leave Thailand at the end of their visit. Unfortunately, this would not be the case of Thais if they gained entry into most western countries. It is fairly easy to remove a westerner from Thailand. It is difficult to deport a Thai from a western country. There are all sorts of legal rights and appeal processes that a Thai who wanted to stay could prevail upon. All a Thai would have to do in some countries would be to declare him/herself as a refugee. Thailand already has a sordid reputation as being a hub of illegal immigrants and for human trafficking. For example, Australia acting for its own interests and representing Canada, had to send warships into the region to drive home the point that the trawlers loaded with Sri Lankan bogus refugees heading to Canada and Australia were not acceptable. If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

With the impending ASEAN 2015 thing one suspects Thailand may infact try to put up immigration barriers around it's immigration policies, therfore over the next few years it may in fact become even harder for long term "Residents" to live in Thaland

[Time Traveller]

If we expats here were treated reciprocally the same way Thai emigrants in many countries are treated, we would be treated a whole lot worse than we actually are, believe you me!

The ritual I have to go through each year for a retirement extension here in Thailand pales into insignificance when compared to the tediously bureaucratic performance we had to go through in order to obtain the necessary visa for my Thai wife to accompany me on a 10-day trip back to the UK 4 years ago!!

Agreed not easy for Thais to visit the west. However, easier for Thais to get permanent residence status in the west than for westerners to get the same status here in Thailand...

Ok but let me pose this question....how many countries in the world that even offer retirement visa's hand out PR or citizenship to the retiree's ? my guess either none or not many...therefore for the most part TV's are asking for reciprocity, but one suspects there is no basis for this in the case of retiree's anywhere else in the world and if there is it will not be in many countries.

The fact is, which a lot of people forget is that Thailand is amongst only a handful of countires that even offer some form of retirement visa to start with, never mind giving said persons PR or citizenship. Does the the my second home program in malaysia lead to PR or citizenship ?...me thinks not

OJAS said he was married. Most countries in the world have immigration opportunities for family members or spouses. And most without the requirement where they must be working, or earning a minimum amount or have this or that other qualification. Using USA as an example, basically filing annual taxes and being of good character is all that is needed for most would be immigrants. And family members (spouse or even retired parents) can immigrate without even needing to be working or filing tax returns.

[Time Traveller]

If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

With the impending ASEAN 2015 thing one suspects Thailand may infact try to put up immigration barriers around it's immigration policies, therfore over the next few years it may in fact become even harder for long term "Residents" to live in Thaland

Southpeel your logic escapes me. Thailand, which agreed to relaxed immigration for ASEAN plans, so will respond with tightened immigration policies??

I doubt Thailand has that much of an inferiority complex. Tightening immigration is basically an admission your own citizens can't compete with the skills of foreigners. It's the opposite of the American model where importing foreigners actually makes their economy better.

[Soutpeel]

If we expats here were treated reciprocally the same way Thai emigrants in many countries are treated, we would be treated a whole lot worse than we actually are, believe you me!

The ritual I have to go through each year for a retirement extension here in Thailand pales into insignificance when compared to the tediously bureaucratic performance we had to go through in order to obtain the necessary visa for my Thai wife to accompany me on a 10-day trip back to the UK 4 years ago!!

Agreed not easy for Thais to visit the west. However, easier for Thais to get permanent residence status in the west than for westerners to get the same status here in Thailand...

Ok but let me pose this question....how many countries in the world that even offer retirement visa's hand out PR or citizenship to the retiree's ? my guess either none or not many...therefore for the most part TV's are asking for reciprocity, but one suspects there is no basis for this in the case of retiree's anywhere else in the world and if there is it will not be in many countries.

The fact is, which a lot of people forget is that Thailand is amongst only a handful of countires that even offer some form of retirement visa to start with, never mind giving said persons PR or citizenship. Does the the my second home program in malaysia lead to PR or citizenship ?...me thinks not

OJAS said he was married. Most countries in the world have immigration opportunities for family members or spouses. And most without the requirement where they must be working, or earning a minimum amount or have this or that other qualification. Using USA as an example, basically filing annual taxes and being of good character is all that is needed for most would be immigrants. And family members (spouse or even retired parents) can immigrate without even needing to be working or filing tax returns.

But says "The ritual I have to go through each year for a retirement extension"...

[Soutpeel]

Southpeel your logic escapes me. Thailand, which agreed to relaxed immigration for ASEAN plans, so will respond with tightened immigration policies??

I doubt Thailand has that much of an inferiority complex. Tightening immigration is basically an admission your own citizens can't compete with the skills of foreigners. It's the opposite of the American model where importing foreigners actually makes their economy better.

The logic is thus....relaxed immigration for ASEAN PP holders, stricter rules for Non-Asean PP holders...

[simple1]

If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

With the impending ASEAN 2015 thing one suspects Thailand may infact try to put up immigration barriers around it's immigration policies, therfore over the next few years it may in fact become even harder for long term "Residents" to live in Thaland

Southpeel your logic escapes me. Thailand, which agreed to relaxed immigration for ASEAN plans, so will respond with tightened immigration policies??

I doubt Thailand has that much of an inferiority complex. Tightening immigration is basically an admission your own citizens can't compete with the skills of foreigners. It's the opposite of the American model where importing foreigners actually makes their economy better.

Right now facilitation for AEC member countries for end 2015 is restricted to professionals with expertise in the industries below, not general unskilled population movement across borders.

The AEC would pave the way for the free flow of skilled labour in eight professions comprising doctors, dentists, nurses, engineers, architects, accountants, surveyors and the tourism industry. Besides the language issues, this would I assume require Thai government agencies/employers to agree that qualifications obtained in AEC countries will be recognised and vice versa

Edited June 16, 2013 by simple1

[Tomtomtom69]

I'm all for reciprocity, and as soon as the Thais learn to drive a vehicle in a way that betrays the presence of a brain, and quit shooting people for trifles, and can learn the language of the host country enabling them to have a meaningful conversation, and have an education good for other careers than prostitution, massage, and cleaning, let's introduce it. The list actually goes on and on, just picked a few items. Until then, I'm afraid Thais continue to feature prominently on the list of undesirable immigrants to the West. Sorry if I'm too blunt, while you are trying hard to import your sweethart of the moment.

The Thais I know in my current country are professional engineers. One is director of engineering, and the other I interviewed for a job back in Thailand. Perhaps it's just the circles you keep.

SC

Many Thai Restaurants in Australia. Most are owned by Thais. And they employ both Thais and Auzzies. I also have seen many Thai massage joints. Can't tell much about them, but they are legit, pay taxes, make money, - whatever they do.

I wish they did employ Aussies but I have not seen one Thai restaurant in Australia that employed any non-Thais. It's almost a case of reverse racism. In fact, an Iranian student tried to get a job as a waitress at a Thai restaurant in Sydney but was refused because of her race. I don't know why that case wasn't referred to the anti-discrimination commission, it should have been!

A Texas steak restaurant in Thailand doesn't have a single westerner working inside (not very authentic) but a Thai restaurant in Australia doesn't have to employ Aussies or other non-Thais? What kind of double standard is that? At least in America, you do have non-Thais working in Thai restaurants. In fact, nearly every Thai restaurant I've been to in the States employed white, black and Mexican waitstaff, cleaning staff etc. even in Thai Town, Los Angeles!

[boosta]

"Reverse racism" really, totally first-world problem.

A Thai restaurant can justify hiring only Thai public-facing staff, and in practice food prep, for the sake of authenticity.

There aren't enough Yanks looking for that kind of work in Australia, nor Thais in most parts of America, but I bet in LA or NY a Thai restaurant would have no legal problem hiring only Thai wait staff.

[Tomtomtom69]

I believe the issue of reciprocity misses a defining characteristic of the types of long term visitors. The western type foreigners seeking a long term residency in Thailand are for the most part self sufficient and are of an older demographic. They are typically law abiding and taxpaying. They do not draw upon Thai social services. Their biggest gripe and it is one that is legitimate, is the onerous nature of the long stay visa process. This is quite different from the Thai demographic that would seek entry into the western countries. These Thais would draw upon the social services and would not be as financially secure as their western counterparts. Educated Thais and Thais of financial means have no problem obtaining visas. One of my aquaintances travels frequently to the USA and EU for her work and her visa process is a snap.

In respect to short term visitors, there is also a considerable difference between the western visitor and the Thai visitor. (For the sake of discussion, leave out the nefarious western and Thai group of people). The western short term visitors do not claim refugee status and for the most part leave Thailand at the end of their visit. Unfortunately, this would not be the case of Thais if they gained entry into most western countries. It is fairly easy to remove a westerner from Thailand. It is difficult to deport a Thai from a western country. There are all sorts of legal rights and appeal processes that a Thai who wanted to stay could prevail upon. All a Thai would have to do in some countries would be to declare him/herself as a refugee. Thailand already has a sordid reputation as being a hub of illegal immigrants and for human trafficking. For example, Australia acting for its own interests and representing Canada, had to send warships into the region to drive home the point that the trawlers loaded with Sri Lankan bogus refugees heading to Canada and Australia were not acceptable. If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

Yes but there are no Thai boat people. It seems fairly easy for the Australian navy to intercept asylum seeker (or economic migrant) boats and there is a great chance that many of these rickety boats won't even make it as far as Australia so I think the system is in place for Thais to not easily enter Australia and remain.

Also any Thai or other foreigner caught overstaying their visa in Australia even by one day will be arrested if caught and deported and prevented from returning for at least 3 years - I therefore don't believe your "going through the courts" story as this is not the case for a simple overstay and/or breach of visa conditions such as not being allowed to work in Australia.

Claiming refugee status in the west, which few Thais or other foreigners would do is fraught with difficulties - it's a very long road and there's little guarantee of success. That's the only way a Thai could find themselves spending more time in the west but it would likely be in an immigration detention while their claims are assessed and since Thailand is not a particularly dangerous place for most of it's citizens (except for the 3 southernmost provinces) the authorities in the west would have to be dealing with a political fugitive who believes his/her life would be endangered by returning to Thailand with proof required before an application would be approved. Very, very few Thais would thus fall under this category of persons.

A foreigner that overstays is often not caught and even if they hand themselves in, so to speak, won't have to worry about paying more than 20,000 Baht in overstay fines and are almost always let back into the country, even the same day. So in that sense it seems Thailand is struggling to get rid of overstaying foreigners in their country. Not just westerners but even more so the large number of Burmese who are inside the country illegally. Despite having roadblocks where the police check documents at least 3 times when traveling between Tak and Mae Sot, the police generally only check vehicles (usually buses and vans) that have passengers that appear to be of Burmese origin (if they are of Indian appearance they easily stand out as there are very few Indians in Thailand but those of East Asian appearance are able to blend in easier with the Thais) although generally all passengers on buses and vans traveling along that road are asked for IDs BUT drivers of cars and their passengers are NOT. In fact, many times they aren't even stopped at all but just waved through. However, the police assumes all Burmese must be so poor they can only afford to catch a bus and would never think they could be traveling inside a Thai car knowing that Burmese cars are not allowed to travel outside Mae Sot they assume the problem has been solved. What this means is that there is a relatively poorly developed system of checking the status of foreigners' stay in Thailand and the penalties for breaching visa conditions are relatively benign especially compared to the west.

[simple1]

I'm all for reciprocity, and as soon as the Thais learn to drive a vehicle in a way that betrays the presence of a brain, and quit shooting people for trifles, and can learn the language of the host country enabling them to have a meaningful conversation, and have an education good for other careers than prostitution, massage, and cleaning, let's introduce it. The list actually goes on and on, just picked a few items. Until then, I'm afraid Thais continue to feature prominently on the list of undesirable immigrants to the West. Sorry if I'm too blunt, while you are trying hard to import your sweethart of the moment.

The Thais I know in my current country are professional engineers. One is director of engineering, and the other I interviewed for a job back in Thailand. Perhaps it's just the circles you keep.

SC

Many Thai Restaurants in Australia. Most are owned by Thais. And they employ both Thais and Auzzies. I also have seen many Thai massage joints. Can't tell much about them, but they are legit, pay taxes, make money, - whatever they do.

I wish they did employ Aussies but I have not seen one Thai restaurant in Australia that employed any non-Thais. It's almost a case of reverse racism. In fact, an Iranian student tried to get a job as a waitress at a Thai restaurant in Sydney but was refused because of her race. I don't know why that case wasn't referred to the anti-discrimination commission, it should have been!

A Texas steak restaurant in Thailand doesn't have a single westerner working inside (not very authentic) but a Thai restaurant in Australia doesn't have to employ Aussies or other non-Thais? What kind of double standard is that? At least in America, you do have non-Thais working in Thai restaurants. In fact, nearly every Thai restaurant I've been to in the States employed white, black and Mexican waitstaff, cleaning staff etc. even in Thai Town, Los Angeles!

My Thai wife had a Thai restaurant in Oz & employed Australian staff as well as Thais, as did other Thai restaurants in the area.

A common problem is Thais often pay way under the minimum wage cash in hand, so only attract Thais, by word of mouth, who find it difficult to find employment elsewhere. When my wife first arrived in Australia she was offered $4 an hour for working in a Thai resturant in an upmarket area of Sydney! Some Thai restaurants funded by the Thai’s Australian partner are also complicit in this practice of paying less than the minimum wage cash in hand, so thereby do not pay staff superannuation and other benefits such as paid leave.

Edited June 17, 2013 by simple1

[ABCer]

You'll never change the Thai mentality towards foreigners or farangs as we are known for the simple reason the country is very inward looking. I put this down to the fact that Thailand is the only country in Southeast Asia never colonised by a European power.

You are here. I am here. Hundreds of thousands of other farang are here. Sounds colonised to me.

The Chinese colonised Thailand and they didn't even realise it. Or does it make a difference that the Chinese look asian and we don't?

Yes, cause all Asians look the same.....

Not quite sure what you are driving at here?

Am I to assume that racism is at the roots of the problem?

[ABCer]

I believe the issue of reciprocity misses a defining characteristic of the types of long term visitors. The western type foreigners seeking a long term residency in Thailand are for the most part self sufficient and are of an older demographic. They are typically law abiding and taxpaying. They do not draw upon Thai social services. Their biggest gripe and it is one that is legitimate, is the onerous nature of the long stay visa process. This is quite different from the Thai demographic that would seek entry into the western countries. These Thais would draw upon the social services and would not be as financially secure as their western counterparts. Educated Thais and Thais of financial means have no problem obtaining visas. One of my aquaintances travels frequently to the USA and EU for her work and her visa process is a snap.

In respect to short term visitors, there is also a considerable difference between the western visitor and the Thai visitor. (For the sake of discussion, leave out the nefarious western and Thai group of people). The western short term visitors do not claim refugee status and for the most part leave Thailand at the end of their visit. Unfortunately, this would not be the case of Thais if they gained entry into most western countries. It is fairly easy to remove a westerner from Thailand. It is difficult to deport a Thai from a western country. There are all sorts of legal rights and appeal processes that a Thai who wanted to stay could prevail upon. All a Thai would have to do in some countries would be to declare him/herself as a refugee. Thailand already has a sordid reputation as being a hub of illegal immigrants and for human trafficking. For example, Australia acting for its own interests and representing Canada, had to send warships into the region to drive home the point that the trawlers loaded with Sri Lankan bogus refugees heading to Canada and Australia were not acceptable. If the immigration barriers to the west were dropped, the west would be flooded with economic migrants from Thailand.

One doesn't get to geriatric stage without getting smart!

[ABCer]

simple1

" My Thai wife had a Thai restaurant in Oz & employed Australian staff as well as Thais, as did other Thai restaurants in the area.

A common problem is Thais often pay way under the minimum wage cash in hand, so only attract Thais, by word of mouth, who find it difficult to find employment elsewhere. When my wife first arrived in Australia she was offered $4 an hour for working in a Thai resturant in an upmarket area of Sydney! Some Thai restaurants funded by the Thai’s Australian partner are also complicit in this practice of paying less than the minimum wage cash in hand, so thereby do not pay staff superannuation and other benefits such as paid leave."

A very good and honest post.

I have noticed the same things in many countries and not only for Thais.

Unfortunately the fierce competition in a new place leads to very un-patriotic, un-cooperative and non-compassionate relationships between migrants from any country. The truth is they try instead of helping each other to exploit each other more than the established local population.

Ruthlessness? Survival of the fittest? Opportunistic behavior? Change of priorities?

Not sure what it is, but there is no cohesive ties between compatriots.

[boosta]

Reciprocal ties of obligation or higher levels of morality in relationships come from one's personal network from the family, professional ties built up over time.

Not just from sharing the same nationality.

Could never understand why people would think I'd takes sides with someone here just because they were farang or even fellow countrymen, not a factor in my decision-making, people are people.

[MrWorldwide]

You'll never change the Thai mentality towards foreigners or farangs as we are known for the simple reason the country is very inward looking.

I put this down to the fact that Thailand is the only country in Southeast Asia never colonised by a European power.

Take a good hard look at the Indonesian 'KITAS' system some time and tell me the Thai system is tough on foreigners. Malaysia is easier if you meet the financial criteria and don't plan to stay for more than ten years - good luck beyond that. Legal retirement options for Vietnam or Laos ? Again, good luck with that, although I'm sure some have found a way to make it work.

As for reciprocity, can you imagine the queue of Asians trying to get into Australia legally ? Ask any TVer who is trying to get a spouse or fiance visa for their Thai partner - I guarantee you that it entails a lot more than 2 nights in a hotel in Penang or Vientiane.

[MrWorldwide]

"Reverse racism" really, totally first-world problem.

A Thai restaurant can justify hiring only Thai public-facing staff, and in practice food prep, for the sake of authenticity.

There aren't enough Yanks looking for that kind of work in Australia, nor Thais in most parts of America, but I bet in LA or NY a Thai restaurant would have no legal problem hiring only Thai wait staff.

How about an Indian mechanic working at a local car dealership for 75% of award wages, or the 457 visa holders who kept their jobs in the coal industry while their Australian-born colleagues were laid off ? This isn't scuttlebutt doing the rounds - I have met the Indian mechanic (atrocious English skills, btw, making me wonder if he is even qualified for that trade in Oz) and the issue with the coal miners has been widely publicised in the local paper. We do have a Thai restaurant in this miserable burg, and the Thai owner *did* employ Australian staff but people bitched that his prices were too high. One tough industry, IMO.