How Much How Little?

[thaibebop]

No, no you're not. You're just enjoying a discussion about oral sex with women But, that's alright!

Well, I know what men would say. H3ll I think everybody knows what men would say.

I agree with your observation about how it may be different in the states or Western cultures. And I like your description about it as a "non-sexual" action, because if you don't derive pleasure from it but she does, then that's exactly what it would be like (*except for her!). It has been reported many times that an overwhelming number of women have clitoral orgasms, especially from oral (if they ever learn to relax and forget all of the negative images about their bodies that have been bred into them). If it is a "non-sexual" action to some men but they perform it anyway, it shows that they value their female partner's satisfaction as highly, and in some cases, more highly than their own. This can only be a great thing for women, because our libidos are a bit more quirky than a man's. In most cases, we have to "go first" if we are going to "go" at all.

This is very true. I find that as a man when you heed ladies first everyone ends up having a good time. I don't know if this is a physical based phenomena or if it's mood, or atmosphere related. You are right about view a women takes about herself as well. My wife, although she complains about being fat(and isn't) does not have any hang ups that I know of and enjoys sex very much. I have known women who have problems with views of themselves and have difficulty.

Here again I wonder more about my own gender than yours when I think about how men are sometimes oblivious to such things. I will stick my neck out here and say that there have been many times when I could not perform because of the person I was with or why I was doing it in the first place. How is it that women can have these hang ups and not most men? Is it because women view themselves as sexual beings more than men do and thus are more sensitive to the details? Is this cultural as some have suggested? Would that explain the west than?

While I think it's a goos thing that I was able to say that what was happening was for the wrong reasons and I had to turn away, nbut I feel like maybe I am a freak in this regard. A man who refuses sex with a woman or has trouble perfoming is given that label or the one of gay.

Once again I must ask if I am making sense, for it seems to me that I might not be?

When a man spends very little attention on the female, and goes straight for himself, then you have all the information you need about how much he values - and in some cases even thinks - about the female libido.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of individual men like this from all cultures, and there are male-dominated cultures that treat this kind of sexual behavior as a norm, and even as a virtue.

*edit

[kat]

I think with the ladies first thing, it's just a necessity if she is at all included in on the finishing sweepstakes. Of course, that is not the only way, but the most common.

In terms of your point about not being into it sometimes, I think it's great that you can be honest with yourself and your partner. I think men have been programmed about their own set of false beliefs, and I think the more true you can be to yourself, the better sex you will eventually end up having (with the best person) - at least, that's how it is for me as a woman.

*edit: but then again, I think men also have a pressure to perform. Partly for the reasons you mentioned, and I'm sure also because as women we are programmed to believe that if he doesn't it's our fault.

Edited April 20, 2006 by kat

[thaibebop]

I think with the ladies first thing, it's just a necessity if she is at all included in on the finishing sweepstakes. Of course, that is not the only way, but the most common.

In terms of your point about not being into it sometimes, I think it's great that you can be honest with yourself and your partner. I think men have been programmed about their own set of false beliefs, and I think the more true you can be to yourself, the better sex you will eventually end up having (with the best person) - at least, that's how it is for me as a woman.

Yes, I think maybe it's men who have more of a problem with sex. Women are effected physically it seems and how the negative effect for men comes about my be more from person to person. For it seems to me that men don't recognize what sex is and can be. I was really torn up by some events in my sex life and found my base lusts, which so many men view as natural and right, to be disgusting and destructive.

So, how about this? Could it be said that many of female sexual (what? disfunctions?) could be laid at the feet of men and those that market to/for men? That maybe men are more in need of help dealing with their sexual natures than women are, and this lack of attention is what has caused the male sex drive to become destructive?

What do you think?

[kat]

No, I wouldn't want to credit all female sexual dysfunctions to men. I think culture is more apt, although a lot of cultures support male attitudes and values that contribute to sexual dysfunction.

But, I think there is a lot to be said about the way sex is marketed and presented, which is creating impossible expectations for both men and women.

[thaibebop]

No, I wouldn't want to credit all female sexual dysfunctions to men. I think culture is more apt, although a lot of cultures support male attitudes and values that contribute to sexual dysfunction.

Now you've got me wondering how one would define male sexual dysfunctions, other than the inability to perfom. What is normal, or perhaps a better word would be acceptable, and what is going to far? A man who moves to a place like Thailand and spends everyday with a different working lady, I would think has issues. I think you are right when you say that the culture has an effect on this. I just wonder where the line is between healthy sex drive and destructive. Like pornography, destructive or healthy outlet? Or is it only destructive when it come out from the backroom to be sold in the front next to the children's books?

But, I think there is a lot to be said about the way sex is marketed and presented, which is creating impossible expectations for both men and women.

In this we are in complete agreement. I feel one of the worst things, besides what some women are willing to do to obtain the unobtainable perfection, is that men have defined their desires by body type and only body type. I only like Asians, or I only like large breasts. I don't think most men, at least here in America, take a closer look at the person until after their sexual desire has been satisfied. Men will see a woman with a man who is by societies standards not that attractive and they will say "How did he get her?" "He must have money." They can't believe that she found value in this man the way he is. I think this is a serious problem men have.

[Tippaporn]

Here again I wonder more about my own gender than yours when I think about how men are sometimes oblivious to such things. I will stick my neck out here and say that there have been many times when I could not perform because of the person I was with or why I was doing it in the first place.

Bops, I don't think you're alone here. Not only do I feel the same but other guys I know as well. If there isn't a mutual feeling of love then sex is definitely not the same. I'm not really interested at that point and yeah, it interferes with performing. Making love turns into having sex. It's not as much fun.

If there's love involved then my goal is to please the woman first. If she's happy then the whole affair raises quite a few notches in quality and intensity. Simply put and rather cliched, what you put out comes back to you.

[thaibebop]

Here again I wonder more about my own gender than yours when I think about how men are sometimes oblivious to such things. I will stick my neck out here and say that there have been many times when I could not perform because of the person I was with or why I was doing it in the first place.

Bops, I don't think you're alone here. Not only do I feel the same but other guys I know as well. If there isn't a mutual feeling of love then sex is definitely not the same. I'm not really interested at that point and yeah, it interferes with performing. Making love turns into having sex. It's not as much fun.

If there's love involved then my goal is to please the woman first. If she's happy then the whole affair raises quite a few notches in quality and intensity. Simply put and rather cliched, what you put out comes back to you.

A cliche is what it is because it contains some truth.

So, what do you think of the last post I made? Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive?

[khall64au]

Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive? - Thaibebop

Enjoy a mutually exclusive and heightened, interactive sexual experience with a woman and it is healthy. Be assertively selfish and it is destructive. Simple!

[thaibebop]

Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive? - Thaibebop

Enjoy a mutually exclusive and heightened, interactive sexual experience with a woman and it is healthy. Be assertively selfish and it is destructive. Simple!

I agree, but what about things like ponrography and strip clubs, ect? What about prime time entertainment that borders on porno?

[khall64au]

Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive? - Thaibebop

Enjoy a mutually exclusive and heightened, interactive sexual experience with a woman and it is healthy. Be assertively selfish and it is destructive. Simple!

I agree, but what about things like ponrography and strip clubs, ect? What about prime time entertainment that borders on porno?

SEE ABOVE.....

[somchai jones]

I find that a pre-sex joint is marvellous for breaking down cultural barriers.

If your partner doesn't partake (possibly due to religous barriers) the fumes will usually suffice anyway. Sensual, uninhibited, highly enjoyable sex ensues.

I'll get slated by the conservatives but I don't mean this to be an offensive post.

[Tippaporn]

To be honest, I don't think there is a line that can be defined due to the fact that there's too much variety of personal preference. What some feel would be destructive for them others enjoy and make work. If you try and judge what others do I believe you'll just end up either never being able to conclude definitively or you'll end up settling on values based on your personal preferences and then applying them to everyone else. Neither works, as far as I'm concerned. The simple and only real solution is to decide what you like for yourself and leave others be to do for themselves as you do for yourself.

[Boo]

However, in defense of the one Buddhist Thai guy I dated (also from the south), he definitely gave as good as he got Too bad he was an epic liar

Theres always a catch

[Sheryl]

Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive? - Thaibebop

Enjoy a mutually exclusive and heightened, interactive sexual experience with a woman and it is healthy. Be assertively selfish and it is destructive. Simple!

I agree, but what about things like ponrography and strip clubs, ect? What about prime time entertainment that borders on porno?

I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but....seems to me that many men, and certainly male sexuality as culturally defined and packaged in the media, suffer from a mind/body division..the physical is one thing, thoughts, emotions are something else...and forget altogether about the spiritual. Women for the most part are inherently holistic; combining mind, body and spirit comes easily and naturally to them. They are capable of dissociating, but given a choice, would prefer not to. Men on the other hand often start out as dissociated and it takes some learning for them to be able to integrate the different parts of themselves -- and some men never do learn it. Which is very sad for them and deprives them of an important aspect ofthe human experience.

Sex as packaged/sold in the media etc is both male-oriented and dissociated, i.e. purely physical. This exacerbates the problem for men. In a sense, I think it is destructive -- in terms of being destructive to men's personal growth and development. (Don't misunderstand -- I'm not in favor of censorship or anything like that. But I think this sort of thing is unhelpful to men in the long run.)

For women, the problem I think is that we have been conditioned to undervalue our own innate ability to respond in an integrated and holistic manner. Particularly during the "sexual revolution" of the 60's and 70's, but also still today, the there is some pressure on women to "prove" they can enjoy sex on a purely phsical level, like a man. Well of course we can -- but why on earth would we want to, given a choice?

By the way, guys being unable to perform beccause they don't feel right about the situation or context is very common -- it's just not part of the of the established one-sided image of male sexcuality so it's sort of a secret each man keeps to himself.

[seonai]

I've always found sex slightly embarrassing and I am self conscious too so when I was younger I used to get pissed beforehand

So now, and before anyone starts on the Thai man stuff again please don't, I just happen to be married to a quite conservative Thai man and we have the same feelings about the subject but our sexual relationship is mutually satisfying. We don't go in for anything other than straight forward, old fashioned stuff but it works!!!!!!! Am I weird/boring????????????

[girlx]

nah that's normal i think, at least it was with me and my thai bf... we had great and plentiful vanilla sex. we always had a weird magnetic attraction to each other. but i did miss more creative and adventuresome people when i was with him.

[soic]

Well, as some of us have just discussed on this thread, from our personal experiences and comparisons which were later substantiated, a lot of sex IS cultural/religious. And then of course, there are personal preferences and individuals, which very often are excpetions to the rule - thankfully!

You're right. I guess in a place like America it would be more of people finding excuses and not being honest.

Thaibebop

Is it really necessary to find every opportunity to throw a jab at America and Americans? I've noticed that with every topic you comment on, you seem to always find a way to dis Americans. I think it's petty. There is honesty and dishonesty in EVERY country in the world. Should I decide to stoop to that level, I could have responded with an appropriate comeback or slam. Come on, let's grow up and stop the culture slam. We can make our points without going there.

[kat]

I find that a pre-sex joint is marvellous for breaking down cultural barriers.

If your partner doesn't partake (possibly due to religous barriers) the fumes will usually suffice anyway. Sensual, uninhibited, highly enjoyable sex ensues.

I'll get slated by the conservatives but I don't mean this to be an offensive post.

yeah, but it depends on the quality of the fumes - not all are equal

However, in defense of the one Buddhist Thai guy I dated (also from the south), he definitely gave as good as he got Too bad he was an epic liar

Theres always a catch

Isn't that the truth Oh, wait - I remembered one more Thai guy with whom I had a brief but sweet affair - and he definitely delivered the goods That's 2 out of 2 for me!

[thaibebop]

Well, as some of us have just discussed on this thread, from our personal experiences and comparisons which were later substantiated, a lot of sex IS cultural/religious. And then of course, there are personal preferences and individuals, which very often are excpetions to the rule - thankfully!

You're right. I guess in a place like America it would be more of people finding excuses and not being honest.

Thaibebop

Is it really necessary to find every opportunity to throw a jab at America and Americans? I've noticed that with every topic you comment on, you seem to always find a way to dis Americans. I think it's petty. There is honesty and dishonesty in EVERY country in the world. Should I decide to stoop to that level, I could have responded with an appropriate comeback or slam. Come on, let's grow up and stop the culture slam. We can make our points without going there.

I am an American and to avoid offending anyone else's country, which I would know little of, I speak of the counrty that I know, being America. I don't like bashers of any kind and this is not bashing. I am merely commenting from examples on which I can speak.

I would suggest in the future you ask first before assuming.

Edited April 21, 2006 by thaibebop

[thaibebop]

nah that's normal i think, at least it was with me and my thai bf... we had great and plentiful vanilla sex. Say what? we always had a weird magnetic attraction to each other. but i did miss more creative and adventuresome people when i was with him.

[thaibebop]

I find that a pre-sex joint is marvellous for breaking down cultural barriers.

If your partner doesn't partake (possibly due to religous barriers) the fumes will usually suffice anyway. Sensual, uninhibited, highly enjoyable sex ensues.

I'll get slated by the conservatives but I don't mean this to be an offensive post.

I guess you have to have positive connotations towards drug use. The last time I was around sex and drugs, like so many other times, it wasn't pretty.

[thaibebop]

Where is the line between healthy male sexual behavior and destructive? - Thaibebop

Enjoy a mutually exclusive and heightened, interactive sexual experience with a woman and it is healthy. Be assertively selfish and it is destructive. Simple!

I agree, but what about things like ponrography and strip clubs, ect? What about prime time entertainment that borders on porno?

SEE ABOVE.....

I see what you are saying, but a person who engages in prono is by themselves, I hope. So, when they leave the house and go out in to the world, did what they do at home create some kind of social destruction? I only use prono for it is most debated as destructive, I think one could use many prime time Tv shows as examples as well.

[mark45y]

I've always found sex slightly embarrassing and I am self conscious too so when I was younger I used to get pissed beforehand

So now, and before anyone starts on the Thai man stuff again please don't, I just happen to be married to a quite conservative Thai man and we have the same feelings about the subject but our sexual relationship is mutually satisfying. We don't go in for anything other than straight forward, old fashioned stuff but it works!!!!!!! Am I weird/boring????????????

Old fashioned is not the right word. The examples in literature especially Victorian England are ample proof of that.

More like puritanical or inhibited by religion of non acceptance of yourself.

I have dated fat chicks who were the sexiest women in the world and I have dated fat chicks who were afraid to turn the lights on. I think it is from their parents.

And I only use fat chicks as a generalization for women who are ashamed of their bodies or sexuality in one way or the other.

Well adjusted women regardless of age or body shape or upbringing have lots of fun with sex and are not embarrassed by it or afraid to experiment with it. It is only those who have hang ups who rationalize their phobias with words like old fashioned.

Straight old fashioned sex is a code word for I am scared to death of exploring myself or my sexuality. I am buying the safe road that allows me to make no mistakes.

A word of caution and a hint of experience. All those clubs in England and Thailand and all over the world don’t exist for straight old fashioned sex. They do very well and make a lot of money.

Porn does not exist for straight old fashioned sex and it is one of the worlds major industries.

You may want to consider the male equation when you consider the advantages of straight old fashioned sex. You may want to consider what is available before you give up a competitive advantage over most of the women in the world.

This is not a Thai thing. This is a male thing. Love is love and sex is sex. If you can’t get what you want at home it is available elsewhere.

Men don’t usually request these things because they are embarrassed to do so. They go somewhere where they don’t have to request it. Somewhere where just a hint will secure the desired result.

I am incredibly liberated but there are still something’s that I like and can’t request. I don’t do without. I do discreetly.

Divorce is an awful thing. More so if it involves not doing some small physical act that would hurt no one but creates giant chiasms in relationships. But he is not going to tell you. You have to figure it out. There is one fact that I can tell you for sure. With out a doubt in my mind. Without fear of contradiction. There is no man in the world who does not like oral sex. Another fact I can state with the same certainty is if he does not get it from you he will get it from someone else. You can debate this till the cows come home but it is true.

[thaibebop]

So, back to my question of healthy sexual behavior vs. destructive.

[LaoPo]

So, back to my question of healthy sexual behavior vs. destructive.

Hmm...difficult to answer, but here's an interesting link:

http://www.sexaddictionhelp.com/test.html

BTW...I didn't do the test; just found it...off to bed now

LaoPo

[threekids]

Not that I personally tried it, but from what I was told, the Kuwaiti and other muslim ladies in Kuwait, would give a man anal sex. They supposedly believed that it was ok to offer anal sex and save the other for their husband or future husband.

I do recall meeting two girls over the years (one greek and the other italian) who had promised their parents that they would remain virgins until their wedding nights. Both girls in the meantime were very happy to have anal sex with various partners. As far as they were concerned it was not sex and they were keeping their promises to their respective parents. It was difficult for me to understand the logic but for them it made perfect sense.

[LaoPo]

Not that I personally tried it, but from what I was told, the Kuwaiti and other muslim ladies in Kuwait, would give a man anal sex. They supposedly believed that it was ok to offer anal sex and save the other for their husband or future husband.

I do recall meeting two girls over the years (one greek and the other italian) who had promised their parents that they would remain virgins until their wedding nights. Both girls in the meantime were very happy to have anal sex with various partners. As far as they were concerned it was not sex and they were keeping their promises to their respective parents. It was difficult for me to understand the logic but for them it made perfect sense.

Agree on that.

Isn't that called 'cheating' upon yourself? ....."keeping their promises to their parents...". So: anal sex is no sex...? I didn't know that...

LaoPo

[soic]

Sorry about that Thaibebop. I too hate bashers. I'll make light hearted jokes at time, but try to steer clear of out and out bashing. I get my hackles up easily sometimes. Nice to know there's a fellow "yank" in the ranks!

[thaibebop]

Sorry about that Thaibebop. I too hate bashers. I'll make light hearted jokes at time, but try to steer clear of out and out bashing. I get my hackles up easily sometimes. Nice to know there's a fellow "yank" in the ranks!

Oh, we're here, but we are the quiet ones here.

Anyways, well met me friend and no harm done.

Edited April 22, 2006 by thaibebop

[sbk]

I've always found sex slightly embarrassing and I am self conscious too so when I was younger I used to get pissed beforehand

So now, and before anyone starts on the Thai man stuff again please don't, I just happen to be married to a quite conservative Thai man and we have the same feelings about the subject but our sexual relationship is mutually satisfying. We don't go in for anything other than straight forward, old fashioned stuff but it works!!!!!!! Am I weird/boring????????????

Old fashioned is not the right word. The examples in literature especially Victorian England are ample proof of that.

More like puritanical or inhibited by religion of non acceptance of yourself.

I have dated fat chicks who were the sexiest women in the world and I have dated fat chicks who were afraid to turn the lights on. I think it is from their parents.

And I only use fat chicks as a generalization for women who are ashamed of their bodies or sexuality in one way or the other.

Well adjusted women regardless of age or body shape or upbringing have lots of fun with sex and are not embarrassed by it or afraid to experiment with it. It is only those who have hang ups who rationalize their phobias with words like old fashioned.

Straight old fashioned sex is a code word for I am scared to death of exploring myself or my sexuality. I am buying the safe road that allows me to make no mistakes.

A word of caution and a hint of experience. All those clubs in England and Thailand and all over the world don’t exist for straight old fashioned sex. They do very well and make a lot of money.

Porn does not exist for straight old fashioned sex and it is one of the worlds major industries.

You may want to consider the male equation when you consider the advantages of straight old fashioned sex. You may want to consider what is available before you give up a competitive advantage over most of the women in the world.

This is not a Thai thing. This is a male thing. Love is love and sex is sex. If you can’t get what you want at home it is available elsewhere.

Men don’t usually request these things because they are embarrassed to do so. They go somewhere where they don’t have to request it. Somewhere where just a hint will secure the desired result.

I am incredibly liberated but there are still something’s that I like and can’t request. I don’t do without. I do discreetly.

Divorce is an awful thing. More so if it involves not doing some small physical act that would hurt no one but creates giant chiasms in relationships. But he is not going to tell you. You have to figure it out. There is one fact that I can tell you for sure. With out a doubt in my mind. Without fear of contradiction. There is no man in the world who does not like oral sex. Another fact I can state with the same certainty is if he does not get it from you he will get it from someone else. You can debate this till the cows come home but it is true.

Yes, well I am sure seonai appreciates your psychoanalysis here. esp since you don't know her and are making some really broad assumptions about her based solely on a few sentences.

What is it with people who like to do this? I just can't understand it myself.

Anyway, there is something about frequent use of pron (don't want to get the search engines finding us and listing us with other, unsavoury websites) that I remember reading, it causes a desensitization. I can't remember the phrase but it basically states that the more you view it, the less capable you get of becoming aroused in any other way.

So, it seems to me that continual/regular use of it would result in unhealthy sexual behavior.