Why do many thai ppl not pronounce the "r" in a word?

[snake24]

Not english words but thai words too.

The most common of all thai words would be what or Arai in thai but it's pronounced ah lai.

Then there's roi or one hundred but they pronounce it as "loi"

There's many more examples and it also applies to english words.

In fact sometimes they totally leave out the R sound in an english word.

There is this famous club at the basement of windsor hotel in bkk called scratchdog now if you have any thai frens they pronounce it as "scat dog" and scat is a sick porno fetish. I honestly don't think they would know what you are saying if you pronounced it as scratch dog.

[Gsxrnz]

Because the L and R are interchangeable or can be dropped or skipped to a great extent, particularly in everyday street/casual talk. In much the same way that we can swap a D and a T or not sound a G at the end of a word, or even drop the last letter of many words.

Once you lose the hangup about trying to get the L or R correct and realise it doesn't really matter - no problems. You just have to listen in context and even though "who" Krai can sound the same as "egg" kai, take it in context and it's all sweet.

In fact, if I ever emphasize the R in many Thai words, the Thais are really lost. They even complain about "hiso" speakers who really nail the R's - they're considered the equivalent of BBC posh. The R's are actually hard on a Thai's ear - or so I've been told.

EDIT: There are many sounds in Thai that we don't have in English that we do the same thing with when we speak Thai - we don't see the importance to differentiate but the Thais do. We don't have a Bp or a Dt or a Ng sound, so if we don't nail them in Thai we are saying totally different words, just like their R's and L's in English. Flied Lice is the same as Fried Rice to them:

Dang = loud

Dtaang = money

Bai = leaf (or bisexual)

Bpai = go

Noo = young person/child

Nguu = snake

So if we don't nail the Dt or the Bp and say a lazy D or B in all the contexts, it confuses the hell out of them. Mai mee dtaang (don't have money) said mai mee dang equals "don't have loud".

Edited August 10, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[snake24]

I once mentioned this and someone told me that it's only the uneducated thais that don't pronounce the R's it's very much like how some ppl just speak terribly and spell like crap.

[tgeezer]

Because the L and R are interchangeable or can be dropped or skipped to a great extent, particularly in everyday street/casual talk. In much the same way that we can swap a D and a T or not sound a G at the end of a word, or even drop the last letter of many words.

Once you lose the hangup about trying to get the L or R correct and realise it doesn't really matter - no problems. You just have to listen in context and even though "who" Krai can sound the same as "egg" kai, take it in context and it's all sweet.

In fact, if I ever emphasize the R in many Thai words, the Thais are really lost. They even complain about "hiso" speakers who really nail the R's - they're considered the equivalent of BBC posh. The R's are actually hard on a Thai's ear - or so I've been told.

I always thought that there was no way that I would say l for r but found myself saying อะไล recently, I think that it is rather natural. I try to be more careful since. It doesn't happen with initial consonants though, I roll those 'Rrrrs ' like a Scotsman; but no! alas, I have to admit I probably do say เหลอ for หรือ when not thinking

[willyumiii]

It is not just Thais, but just about all Asians who have trouble with Rs and Ls.

Not only do they leave the sound out, in many cases they exchange the R for L sound and visa versa ie problem becomes plobrem!

I help several Thai students learn to speak English and I have found a diagram that shows the position of the tongue while making both the R and L sounds.

When they really concentrate, they can get it right, but it is an effort.

I hope in time it will become natural to them.

[Gsxrnz]

Because the L and R are interchangeable or can be dropped or skipped to a great extent, particularly in everyday street/casual talk. In much the same way that we can swap a D and a T or not sound a G at the end of a word, or even drop the last letter of many words.

Once you lose the hangup about trying to get the L or R correct and realise it doesn't really matter - no problems. You just have to listen in context and even though "who" Krai can sound the same as "egg" kai, take it in context and it's all sweet.

In fact, if I ever emphasize the R in many Thai words, the Thais are really lost. They even complain about "hiso" speakers who really nail the R's - they're considered the equivalent of BBC posh. The R's are actually hard on a Thai's ear - or so I've been told.

I always thought that there was no way that I would say l for r but found myself saying อะไล recently, I think that it is rather natural. I try to be more careful since. It doesn't happen with initial consonants though, I roll those 'Rrrrs ' like a Scotsman; but no! alas, I have to admit I probably do say เหลอ for หรือ when not thinking

I don't write Thai, so transliterated. If I say sa-wat-dee krup, and really nail the R to the point of rolling it, they think I'm taking the piss.

Listened to a hiso announcer at Central Plaza once (advertising and modelling underwear, so I had to listen) and she was nailing the R's - my wife described it as nails running down a blackboard to her. Even to me it sounded strange and OTT. A bit like a British Peer with a plum in his mouth - ok for 5 minutes, but more than that and it grates!

[Gsxrnz]

It is not just Thais, but just about all Asians who have trouble with Rs and Ls.

Not only do they leave the sound out, in many cases they exchange the R for L sound and visa versa ie problem becomes plobrem!

I help several Thai students learn to speak English and I have found a diagram that shows the position of the tongue while making both the R and L sounds.

When they really concentrate, they can get it right, but it is an effort.

I hope in time it will become natural to them.

That's a good chart - thanks for that.

I helped a friend of my wife to brush up her pronunciation for a job interview. After a few days I finally got her to say "Fred fried fried rice on Friday" correctly. She got the L's, R's and the C correct. When she said it correctly for the first time I said "Great!!....what did Fred Fry?". The immediate answer, with a huge smile on her face was "Flied Lie". Go figure.

[Gsxrnz]

I once mentioned this and someone told me that it's only the uneducated thais that don't pronounce the R's it's very much like how some ppl just speak terribly and spell like crap.

That's a huge generalisation that has a slight basis in truth. If somebody from London pronounces thousands as "fousands", is that a product of no education? Or what about if you pronounce forty as "fordy".?

The L and R thing in Thai is better compared to casual and formal. My wife speaks lazy casual Thai, but man.....you should hear her "telephone" voice when speaking to officials or shop assistants. She wasn't born with a silver spoon, but she does a bloody good impression of a Princess....bless her soul!

[jombom]

One regularly hears strange pronunciations such as Druck and Tree or coffee.

At the Rumpho food cart market there is a guy selling duck. He has photos of various dishes with captions. Some are duck and some are druck.

[Gsxrnz]

One regularly hears strange pronunciations such as Druck and Tree or coffee.

At the Rumpho food cart market there is a guy selling duck. He has photos of various dishes with captions. Some are duck and some are druck.

Most of the girls in the Bars at Rhompo can say duck with an F and no R pretty fluently though.

[Richard W]

The answer is historical. In most of the South Western Thai languages (Shan, Tai Lue, Lao) and dialects (Northern Tai, N.E. Thai), the [r] sound simply faded out into [h]. The traditional response to the need to say /r/ (e.g. in Pali, and in Pali-derived words) has been simply to substitute /l/. When the speakers of these languages and dialects know they should produce some sort of [r], they simple stick to the traditional solution of saying [l]. This habit manifests itself when they attempt to speak Central Thai.

Social factors then come into play. Sounding /r/ when everyone else is saying /l/ sounds stuck up. I don't think I've ever heard my wife (first language Northern Thai) pronounce [r] when speaking Central Thai, but she was taught to pronounce Central Thai well enough that she has no noticeable problem in saying my name properly.

There is also a developmental factor which helps keep [r] down. Syllable-initial /r/ is a difficult sound to learn, and many people in languages with initial /r/ (e.g English) never learn to say it properly. Even amongst languages that have /r/, it is not uncommon for it not to occur at the start of a word, e.g. Basque and Turkish (they may now have succumbed to external influences). Going far enough back through the ancestors of the English language, it is seriously argued that Proto-Indo-European lacked word-initial /r/. (The word for 'red' would have started something like /hr/, which then became /r/ in most languages but /er/ in a few such as Greek.)

Finally, the Thai pronunciation of English is largely based on the British pronunciation, so post-vocalic /r/ faces enormous difficulties. In almost all Thai loan words from English, it is marked as not pronounced.

[snake24]

The answer is historical. In most of the South Western Thai languages (Shan, Tai Lue, Lao) and dialects (Northern Tai, N.E. Thai), the [r] sound simply faded out into [h]. The traditional response to the need to say /r/ (e.g. in Pali, and in Pali-derived words) has been simply to substitute /l/. When the speakers of these languages and dialects know they should produce some sort of [r], they simple stick to the traditional solution of saying [l]. This habit manifests itself when they attempt to speak Central Thai.

Social factors then come into play. Sounding /r/ when everyone else is saying /l/ sounds stuck up. I don't think I've ever heard my wife (first language Northern Thai) pronounce [r] when speaking Central Thai, but she was taught to pronounce Central Thai well enough that she has no noticeable problem in saying my name properly.

There is also a developmental factor which helps keep [r] down. Syllable-initial /r/ is a difficult sound to learn, and many people in languages with initial /r/ (e.g English) never learn to say it properly. Even amongst languages that have /r/, it is not uncommon for it not to occur at the start of a word, e.g. Basque and Turkish (they may now have succumbed to external influences). Going far enough back through the ancestors of the English language, it is seriously argued that Proto-Indo-European lacked word-initial /r/. (The word for 'red' would have started something like /hr/, which then became /r/ in most languages but /er/ in a few such as Greek.)

Finally, the Thai pronunciation of English is largely based on the British pronunciation, so post-vocalic /r/ faces enormous difficulties. In almost all Thai loan words from English, it is marked as not pronounced.

why do u have such extensive knowlegde of these languages even being able to differentiate between thai from the different regions?

[Richard W]

why do u have such extensive knowlegde of these languages even being able to differentiate between thai from the different regions?

I am fascinated by how languages evolve, especially sound changes. I was lucky enough to chance upon Fang-Kuei Li's 'A Handbook of Comparative Tai', which is now in the sad state of being in copyright but out of print. (The second-hand asking prices horrify me. My brand-new copy only cost me 490฿ in Asia Books.)

There's enough comparative material of the dialects of Thailand around to confirm any hints one gets from Lao, while my Northern Thai knowledge arises from more specific study. I actually know comparatively little about Southern Thai.

[kriswillems]

The book is available for download a bookos.org

look for Fang Kuei Li

[preahko]

The dropping of r's/conversion of r's to l's also varies by dialect of Thai...it's very common in Bangkok and Central Thai provinces, and in Isan (in the latter, it's because most folks' home language is Lao, which has no r sound). But for Thai speakers from, say, Surin and the South, they roll their r's very hard and always pronounce them (unless they're trying to "fit in" with Central Thais, which does happen too)...that's due to the influence of the native languages in those regions on the way they speak Thai: Khmer in Surin, which has very strong, hard, trilled r's, and Southern Thai, which has the same.

Edited August 12, 2013 by preahko

[snake24]

why do u have such extensive knowlegde of these languages even being able to differentiate between thai from the different regions?

I am fascinated by how languages evolve, especially sound changes. I was lucky enough to chance upon Fang-Kuei Li's 'A Handbook of Comparative Tai', which is now in the sad state of being in copyright but out of print. (The second-hand asking prices horrify me. My brand-new copy only cost me 490฿ in Asia Books.)

There's enough comparative material of the dialects of Thailand around to confirm any hints one gets from Lao, while my Northern Thai knowledge arises from more specific study. I actually know comparatively little about Southern Thai.

The dropping of r's/conversion of r's to l's also varies by dialect of Thai...it's very common in Bangkok and Central Thai provinces, and in Isan (in the latter, it's because most folks' home language is Lao, which has no r sound). But for Thai speakers from, say, Surin and the South, they roll their r's very hard and always pronounce them (unless they're trying to "fit in" with Central Thais, which does happen too)...that's due to the influence of the native languages in those regions on the way they speak Thai: Khmer in Surin, which has very strong, hard, trilled r's, and Southern Thai, which has the same.

The southern region of thailand is close to malaysia and did u know that thailand or rather the siam kingdom used to own i think almost the entire malaysia until the anglo- siam treaty of 1909

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Siamese_Treaty_of_1909

The southern thais should be ethnic malays or rather those close to the malaysian border ethnic malays that have been thaified.

I am not really sure if bahasa actually pronounces their R's.

[AyG]

The southern region of thailand is close to malaysia and did u know that thailand or rather the siam kingdom used to own i think almost the entire malaysia until the anglo- siam treaty of 1909

Siam didn't ever own almost all of Malaysia. The four southern Thai provinces used to be independent states. These states paid annual tribute to Ayutthaya, but were not owned, or even ruled by Siam. The Ayutthaya kingdom had little influence further south.

I am not really sure if bahasa actually pronounces their R's.

"Bahasa" just means "language". If you mean bahasa Malaysia (aka bahasa melayu), it does have a distinct "r" sound which is not interchangeable with "l".

[snake24]

The southern region of thailand is close to malaysia and did u know that thailand or rather the siam kingdom used to own i think almost the entire malaysia until the anglo- siam treaty of 1909

Siam didn't ever own almost all of Malaysia. The four southern Thai provinces used to be independent states. These states paid annual tribute to Ayutthaya, but were not owned, or even ruled by Siam. The Ayutthaya kingdom had little influence further south.

I am not really sure if bahasa actually pronounces their R's.

"Bahasa" just means "language". If you mean bahasa Malaysia (aka bahasa melayu), it does have a distinct "r" sound which is not interchangeable with "l".

Were it not for the brits i can bet half of modern malaysia would be under thailand. The fact of the matter is these malay kingdoms were no match for thais.

Yup of course i wasn't so specific but when i write bahasa it should be apparent i mean malay or indonesian and both are pretty similar.

[Tchooptip]

Because the L and R are interchangeable or can be dropped or skipped to a great extent, particularly in everyday street/casual talk. In much the same way that we can swap a D and a T or not sound a G at the end of a word, or even drop the last letter of many words.

Once you lose the hangup about trying to get the L or R correct and realise it doesn't really matter - no problems. You just have to listen in context and even though "who" Krai can sound the same as "egg" kai, take it in context and it's all sweet.

In fact, if I ever emphasize the R in many Thai words, the Thais are really lost. They even complain about "hiso" speakers who really nail the R's - they're considered the equivalent of BBC posh. The R's are actually hard on a Thai's ear - or so I've been told.

EDIT: There are many sounds in Thai that we don't have in English that we do the same thing with when we speak Thai - we don't see the importance to differentiate but the Thais do. We don't have a Bp or a Dt or a Ng sound, so if we don't nail them in Thai we are saying totally different words, just like their R's and L's in English. Flied Lice is the same as Fried Rice to them:

Dang = loud

Dtaang = money

Bai = leaf (or bisexual)

Bpai = go

Noo = young person/child

Nguu = snake

So if we don't nail the Dt or the Bp and say a lazy D or B in all the contexts, it confuses the hell out of them. Mai mee dtaang (don't have money) said mai mee dang equals "don't have loud".

Because the L and R are interchangeable or can be dropped or skipped to a great extent, particularly in everyday street/casual talk.

Undoubtably... so I wondered sometimes why a "Sawat dee klap" is never heard?... Solly it makes me laugh

[Richard W]

Undoubtably... so I wondered sometimes why a "Sawat dee klap" is never heard?... Solly it makes me laugh

Because the rule about simplifying clusters takes precedence! Conversely, you'll often hear singers rolling their 'r's in clusters with ล!

[Tchooptip]

It is not just Thais, but just about all Asians who have trouble with Rs and Ls.

Not only do they leave the sound out, in many cases they exchange the R for L sound and visa versa ie problem becomes plobrem!

I help several Thai students learn to speak English and I have found a diagram that shows the position of the tongue while making both the R and L sounds.

When they really concentrate, they can get it right, but it is an effort.

I hope in time it will become natural to them.

That's a good chart - thanks for that.

I helped a friend of my wife to brush up her pronunciation for a job interview. After a few days I finally got her to say "Fred fried fried rice on Friday" correctly. She got the L's, R's and the C correct. When she said it correctly for the first time I said "Great!!....what did Fred Fry?". The immediate answer, with a huge smile on her face was "Flied Lie". Go figure.

I have an iPad with several Apps I bought on Appstore for learn the Thai alphabet, with audio of course.

For ร the Thai voice reads clearly RHOR LUA, no joke. Go figure same same!