Any Americans in Thailand giving up US citizenship ?

[Forethat]

Citizenship should never be a factor when opening an account. International agreements and regulations requires the bank to verify the identity of a customer. As long as the customer meets all other requirements there are no grounds to reject.

For this reason, verifying your identity with a Swiss, German or American passport is irrelevant. Similarly, unless you are able to verify residency you'd have to settle for one of the offshore banking alternatives, regardless of Swiss, Thai or Nigerian nationality.

Most banks (even Thai) monitor transfers on a wide scale, wider than most customers are aware of. This includes local, domestic and international transfers.

If you want to get sucked up in this boring world, here's a good place to start:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/

errrmmm... I don't know what you exactly mean when you write "Citizenship should never be a factor"

If you mean that in a perfect world, it shouldn't matter, you are right.

If you mean that right now, citizenship doesn't matter when opening bank accounts, you are plain wrong.

What happens now is that the US of A are blackmailing banks all over the world to coerce them into breaking the Law, i.e. they force banks to report accounts of US persons to the US government. If banks choose to actually follow the Law and not reveal customer data to third parties without a proper court order, the US will have the bank/country ostracized from the international financial system.

In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts? If your application for an account is rejected it is because you fail to meet the requirements, not because of your nationality.

The issue, in my opinion, is not that the American government is "bullying" (your term) financial institutions around the world to reveal information regarding assets; the issue is that a large number of americans fail to appreciate the tax laws of their own country.

Whichever way you wish to slice it, FATCA amounts to strong-arming non-US banks into doing the IRS' job "or else we're going to slap a 30% withholding tax on you". Call it what you will.

I'll ask again, In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts?

[Trembly]

I'll ask again, In what aspect is my statement, that nationality should not be factor when you open an account in case you comply with the other requirements, relevant in a discussion regarding US attempts to collect tax on assets held in foreign accounts?

It's very simple. The banks who have decided that building FATCA compliance into their administration is not in their business interests have a GO/NO GO gauge. It goes like this :

US nationality : NO GO

Other nationality : GO

Therefore, nationality is a factor when opening a bank account.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Forethat]

When the US government enacts a law that forces foreign banks to report on the accounts of US citizens on pain of a 30% withholding tax, nationality become very much a factor to those banks.

Many of those banks have decided that allowing US citizens to open accounts with them is simply not worth the trouble.

It's very simple. The banks who have decided that FATCA compliance is not in their business interests have a GO/NO GO gauge. It goes like this :

US nationality : NO GO

Other nationality : GO

Therefore, nationality is a factor when opening a bank account.

You are referring to a separate issue. In case you want to discuss the real issue; the conflict between US tax legislation and privacy acts in effect in other nations (in particular those where account owners carry multiple nationalities, causing commercial friction) then this is going to be an interesting debate.

I have yet to see one bank to officially announce that they will reject (and eject) any new and existing customers based solely on their nationality (in this case American). If you have any such information I'd like to have some of it, please.

[Trembly]

When the US government enacts a law that forces foreign banks to report on the accounts of US citizens on pain of a 30% withholding tax, nationality become very much a factor to those banks.

Many of those banks have decided that allowing US citizens to open accounts with them is simply not worth the trouble.

It's very simple. The banks who have decided that FATCA compliance is not in their business interests have a GO/NO GO gauge. It goes like this :

US nationality : NO GO

Other nationality : GO

Therefore, nationality is a factor when opening a bank account.

You are referring to a separate issue. In case you want to discuss the real issue; the conflict between US tax legislation and privacy acts in effect in other nations (in particular those where account owners carry multiple nationalities, causing commercial friction) then this is going to be an interesting debate.

I have yet to see one bank to officially announce that they will reject (and eject) any new and existing customers based solely on their nationality (in this case American). If you have any such information I'd like to have some of it, please.

Plenty of banks in SG and HK are now refusing to open accounts under US citizenship, but some are still willing to accept deposits under US nationality under certain terms and conditions. I confess that I do not know the situation with Thai banks, retail or otherwise.

In some cases they will require that the US citizen is responsible (in cost or otherwise) for all of the FATCA legwork for both the bank and the customer.

In some cases they will be fine with the account being in the name of the US citizens' OTHER NATIONALITY if he/she possesses multiple nationalities,

In some cases where they just don't want the IRS peeking into their inner workings at all they will just say 'sorry, no Americans'.

I can see how for some Americans, this could be yet another straw on the camel's back.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Forethat]

When the US government enacts a law that forces foreign banks to report on the accounts of US citizens on pain of a 30% withholding tax, nationality become very much a factor to those banks.

Many of those banks have decided that allowing US citizens to open accounts with them is simply not worth the trouble.

It's very simple. The banks who have decided that FATCA compliance is not in their business interests have a GO/NO GO gauge. It goes like this :

US nationality : NO GO

Other nationality : GO

Therefore, nationality is a factor when opening a bank account.

You are referring to a separate issue. In case you want to discuss the real issue; the conflict between US tax legislation and privacy acts in effect in other nations (in particular those where account owners carry multiple nationalities, causing commercial friction) then this is going to be an interesting debate.

I have yet to see one bank to officially announce that they will reject (and eject) any new and existing customers based solely on their nationality (in this case American). If you have any such information I'd like to have some of it, please.

Plenty of banks in SG and HK are now refusing to open accounts under US citizenship, but some are still willing to accept deposits under US nationality under certain terms and conditions. I confess that I do not know the situation with Thai banks, retail or otherwise.

In some cases they will require that the US citizen is responsible (in cost or otherwise) for all of the FATCA legwork for both the bank and the customer.

In some cases they will be fine with the account being in the name of the US citizens' OTHER NATIONALITY if he/she possesses multiple nationalities,

In some cases where they just don't want the IRS peeking into their inner workings at all they will just say 'sorry, no Americans'.

I can see how for some Americans, this could be yet another straw on the camel's back.

Name one.

[Trembly]

Pick one.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Trembly]

In case you were also wondering : Eight places where Americans can still bank offshore.

[Forethat]

Pick one : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/u-s-millionaires-told-go-away-as-tax-evasion-rule-looms.html

So you are maintaining my previous claims that there are no official statements from any banks to reject applications based solely on nationality (American, in this case), and that any such decision in individual cases should be seen as completely arbitrary?

I repeat, the issue is not nationality, but the commercial friction caused by conflicting legislation; nationality is secondary. I'm sure you recognise this fact. This appears to cause grievance with US citizens who expects foreign legislation to protect them from compliance with US tax law.

Bottom line is, US government are given mandate by democratic principles to collect tax. Pay.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Forethat

[manarak]

Pick one : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/u-s-millionaires-told-go-away-as-tax-evasion-rule-looms.html

So you are maintaining my previous claims that there are no official statements from any banks to reject applications based solely on nationality (American, in this case), and that any such decision in individual cases should be seen as completely arbitrary?

I repeat, the issue is not nationality, but the commercial friction caused by conflicting legislation; nationality is secondary. I'm sure you recognise this fact.

I'm not sure which exact hair you want to split, but what you describe as "conflicting legislation" boils down to "US vs. almost any other country", so US citizenship is an eliminatory criteria (although in theory, the criteria is larger than just citizenship, it includes so-called "US persons" which can be summarized as meaning "any person that could have or could have had tax duties in the US").

Banks will probably not issue blanket statements that they don't accept accounts from US citizens,as this could be perceived as negative publicity, but internal memos/policies do exist.

I have been a private banker and already in 2008 there were policies in place to prevent taking on "US persons" as clients.

Edited October 2, 2013 by manarak

[NewlyMintedThai]

He added, one time lot of people wanted go to USA and now people want leave the USA.

Yeah sure there are a few that want to leave the USA but the LINE to get into the USA is way way way longer and always has been and likely will remain that way. America is many things to many people and it is far far far from perfect.....BUT...it is still an incredible country and has been the DREAM of millions of people worldwide for DECADES to become an American citizen.

Absolutely true.

Dined with a PRC national last night who commented that America is "paradise" for Chinese. Only if they can't emigrate to America do they consider other places such as Canada, Australia, NZ, UK, etc. -- but those are viewed as inferior choices.

[Trembly]

He added, one time lot of people wanted go to USA and now people want leave the USA.

Yeah sure there are a few that want to leave the USA but the LINE to get into the USA is way way way longer and always has been and likely will remain that way. America is many things to many people and it is far far far from perfect.....BUT...it is still an incredible country and has been the DREAM of millions of people worldwide for DECADES to become an American citizen.

Absolutely true.

Dined with a PRC national last night who commented that America is "paradise" for Chinese. Only if they can't emigrate to America do they consider other places such as Canada, Australia, NZ, UK, etc. -- but those are viewed as inferior choices.

True, but there is a growing tide of Americans who are waking up to the march of Pluto-Fascism in the USA. It's so difficult to have a sensible public discussion about it that doesn't descend into name-calling, chest-beating, and line-in-the-sand-drawing because it is about the money and it isn't about the money all at the same time.

I recently dined with a Taiwanese American who confessed to being worried for all the fellow Chinese that he knows who are still climbing the US citizenship mountain. He tries to counsel caution, but they don't hear him in their scramble for paradise.

I'm in no way condemning the USA as paradise lost, I'm just . . . well I'm just saying.

On the bright side; it's not over until it's over, and there are plenty of signs that the next American revolution may yet prove to be bloodless.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Trembly]

Pick one : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/u-s-millionaires-told-go-away-as-tax-evasion-rule-looms.html

So you are maintaining my previous claims that there are no official statements from any banks to reject applications based solely on nationality (American, in this case), and that any such decision in individual cases should be seen as completely arbitrary?

I repeat, the issue is not nationality, but the commercial friction caused by conflicting legislation; nationality is secondary. I'm sure you recognise this fact. This appears to cause grievance with US citizens who expects foreign legislation to protect them from compliance with US tax law.

Bottom line is, US government are given mandate by democratic principles to collect tax. Pay.

“I don’t open U.S. accounts, period,” said Su Shan Tan, head of private banking at Singapore-based DBS, Southeast Asia’s largest lender, who described regulatory attitudes toward U.S. clients as “Draconian.” - Bloomberg, May 9 2012.

I would expect that the head of private banking in such a bank in a global banking center such as Singapore would not be speaking without basis in facts in an interview with a publication such as Bloomberg, regardless of the fact that the banks do not have a PR policy for US nationals / FATCA compliance as per post #160. The article is still up and the statement is still there, so presumably he hasn't tried to retract it.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[Naam]

Banks lock out Americans over new tax law By Sophia Yan @sophia_yan September 15, 2013: 11:19 PM ET

HONG KONG (CNNMoney)

Americans, take your money elsewhere!

That's what banks around the world have been telling their U.S. customers, as they try to avoid having to comply with a new tax law due to come into force next year.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/15/news/banks-americans-lockout/index.html

[isawasnake]

He added, one time lot of people wanted go to USA and now people want leave the USA.

Yeah sure there are a few that want to leave the USA but the LINE to get into the USA is way way way longer and always has been and likely will remain that way. America is many things to many people and it is far far far from perfect.....BUT...it is still an incredible country and has been the DREAM of millions of people worldwide for DECADES to become an American citizen.

Right, but that greatness does come at a cost.

[Forethat]

Pick one : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/u-s-millionaires-told-go-away-as-tax-evasion-rule-looms.html

So you are maintaining my previous claims that there are no official statements from any banks to reject applications based solely on nationality (American, in this case), and that any such decision in individual cases should be seen as completely arbitrary?

I repeat, the issue is not nationality, but the commercial friction caused by conflicting legislation; nationality is secondary. I'm sure you recognise this fact. This appears to cause grievance with US citizens who expects foreign legislation to protect them from compliance with US tax law.

Bottom line is, US government are given mandate by democratic principles to collect tax. Pay.

I dont open U.S. accounts, period, said Su Shan Tan, head of private banking at Singapore-based DBS, Southeast Asias largest lender, who described regulatory attitudes toward U.S. clients as Draconian. - Bloomberg, May 9 2012.

I would expect that the head of private banking in such a bank in a global banking center such as Singapore would not be speaking without basis in facts in an interview with a publication such as Bloomberg, regardless of the fact that the banks do not have a PR policy for US nationals / FATCA compliance as per post #160. The article is still up and the statement is still there, so presumably he hasn't tried to retract it.

You're still not getting my point. Any decision to reject or eject new and/or existing account owners is NOT based on nationality, but on entirely other factors. I still haven't seen ONE official statement from ONE single institution. I'm not saying that I'm wrong, but until I see it I'll treat it as arbitrary individual decisions and gossip.

Frankly, I dont see what the fuss is all about. Americans are behaving as if they are subject to some sort of foul play. For starters, there are numerous other countries that already have similar agreements in place.

Stop whining. Pay.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Forethat

[Trembly]

Pick one : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-08/u-s-millionaires-told-go-away-as-tax-evasion-rule-looms.html

So you are maintaining my previous claims that there are no official statements from any banks to reject applications based solely on nationality (American, in this case), and that any such decision in individual cases should be seen as completely arbitrary?

I repeat, the issue is not nationality, but the commercial friction caused by conflicting legislation; nationality is secondary. I'm sure you recognise this fact. This appears to cause grievance with US citizens who expects foreign legislation to protect them from compliance with US tax law.

Bottom line is, US government are given mandate by democratic principles to collect tax. Pay.

I dont open U.S. accounts, period, said Su Shan Tan, head of private banking at Singapore-based DBS, Southeast Asias largest lender, who described regulatory attitudes toward U.S. clients as Draconian. - [/size]Bloomberg, May 9 2012.

I would expect that the head of private banking in such a bank in a global banking center such as Singapore would not be speaking without basis in facts in an interview with a publication such as Bloomberg, regardless of the fact that the banks do not have a PR policy for US nationals / FATCA compliance as per post #160. The article is still up and the statement is still there, so presumably he hasn't tried to retract it.[/size]

You're still not getting my point. Any decision to reject or eject new and/or existing account owners is NOT based on nationality, but on entirely other factors. I still haven't seen ONE official statement from ONE single institution. I'm not saying that I'm wrong, but until I see it I'll treat it as arbitrary individual decisions and gossip.

Frankly, I dont see what the fuss is all about. Americans are behaving as if they are subject to some sort of foul play. For starters, there are numerous other countries that already have similar agreements in place.

Stop whining. Pay.

[Forethat]

Actually, the second I realised that your entire argument was built on a couple of news articles, the idea of using the cheesy emoticon crossed my mind as well, but I decided to refrain from making fun of you.

[Trembly]

Actually, the second I realised that your entire argument was built on a couple of news articles, the idea of using the cheesy emoticon crossed my mind as well, but I decided to refrain from making fun of you.

Actually there are three articles about this on this thread. The third one was posted by Naam in post #165. You should read if it you haven't yet.

Either you're calling the reporters liars, or the interviewees liars, gossips, rumour mongers etc, or you're just refusing to accept it until a bank issues a PR statement about it, which is a bit like refusing to accept that a 7-11 has closed up until you see a 'closed' sign even though there are no lights on inside and the shelves are bare, because an internal message was already sent from head office to the owner of the 7-11 that the branch had to go (I am alluding to manarak's post #160).

Which one do you think has the greater effect on the day-to-day running and actions of staff in a bank - and therefore the customer - the internal policy or the (absence of a) PR statement?

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Self-edited for off topic remarks.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Trembly

[manarak]

Any decision to reject or eject new and/or existing account owners is NOT based on nationality, but on entirely other factors.

Pray tell what those factors are?

I worked in Private Banking (Switzerland) and saw the policies regarding US persons.

[NeverSure]

I hate to admit it, but surveys has revealed pretty grim numbers regarding Americans.

Many studies continue to relay sobering facts about the state of our science and math education in both the United States and the United Kingdom. A recent study compared math and science scores of 12 to 13 year olds from each US state to their counterparts in both the developed and developing world. While it conveyed some good information, namely that the US and UK are doing better than in previous years, it still showed that compared to countries such as Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and China even the best US states and England still lag behind. The good news for England however, is that you've outperformed the US in science scores. This might be due in part to the fact that half of all US citizens believe that humans coexisted with dinosaurs, or the 25% who don't know the Earth revolves around the sun, and the 58% who cannot calculate a 10% tip on a restaurant bill. With this poor state of basic knowledge, how can we hope to survive the ever growing complexities of modern life?

Oh yes, of course. Everyone is smarter than Americans and the whole world knows that.

They learn about that on the internet, using TCP/IP, routers, DNS, DHCP, fiber optic cable, Ethernet or DSL, while looking at a computer (and a web page, probably Google) which has an operating system and programming language to create a web page and plug-ins like Adobe Flash.

Then once they finally figure out how to use that computer and the internet, they get on it and say how dumb Americans are.

Oh, either that or they learn how dumb Americans are on their cell phone or smartphone.

I am PROUD to be an American. I see America's faults, but it is still the world's leader in technology and economy. It is huge and has untapped and unrealized profits from natural resources.

I will NEVER give up my citizenship. IMHO it is THE place to go to if this world goes to shit as Western countries damn themselves with deficits and debt. All of them.

[jbrain]

Oh yes, of course. Everyone is smarter than Americans and the whole world knows that.

They learn about that on the internet, using TCP/IP, routers, DNS, DHCP, fiber optic cable, Ethernet or DSL, while looking at a computer (and a web page, probably Google) which has an operating system and programming language to create a web page and plug-ins like Adobe Flash.

Then once they finally figure out how to use that computer and the internet, they get on it and say how dumb Americans are.

Oh, either that or they learn how dumb Americans are on their cell phone or smartphone.

I am PROUD to be an American. I see America's faults, but it is still the world's leader in technology and economy. It is huge and has untapped and unrealized profits from natural resources.

I will NEVER give up my citizenship. IMHO it is THE place to go to if this world goes to shit as Western countries dam_n themselves with deficits and debt. All of them.

I'm sure you're also from the opinion that Von Braun was actually an American and that the internet was invented by Americans .

I will NEVER give up my citizenship. IMHO it is THE place to go to if this world goes to shit as Western countries dam_n themselves with deficits and debt. All of them.

Glad to learn that the US doesn't have debts.

Did the US government just shut down because they had some extended holidays to catch up with ?

Edited October 2, 2013 by jbrain

[Forethat]

I am PROUD to be an American. I see America's faults, but it is still the world's leader in technology and economy. It is huge and has untapped and unrealized profits from natural resources.

Why shouldn't you be proud of being an American...?

I will NEVER give up my citizenship.

Good on you, I wouldn't expect this from anyone. Hats off!

[manarak]

I hate to admit it, but surveys has revealed pretty grim numbers regarding Americans.

Many studies continue to relay sobering facts about the state of our science and math education in both the United States and the United Kingdom. A recent study compared math and science scores of 12 to 13 year olds from each US state to their counterparts in both the developed and developing world. While it conveyed some good information, namely that the US and UK are doing better than in previous years, it still showed that compared to countries such as Singapore, Taiwan, Japan and China even the best US states and England still lag behind. The good news for England however, is that you've outperformed the US in science scores. This might be due in part to the fact that half of all US citizens believe that humans coexisted with dinosaurs, or the 25% who don't know the Earth revolves around the sun, and the 58% who cannot calculate a 10% tip on a restaurant bill. With this poor state of basic knowledge, how can we hope to survive the ever growing complexities of modern life?

Oh yes, of course. Everyone is smarter than Americans and the whole world knows that.

They learn about that on the internet, using TCP/IP, routers, DNS, DHCP, fiber optic cable, Ethernet or DSL, while looking at a computer (and a web page, probably Google) which has an operating system and programming language to create a web page and plug-ins like Adobe Flash.

Then once they finally figure out how to use that computer and the internet, they get on it and say how dumb Americans are.

Oh, either that or they learn how dumb Americans are on their cell phone or smartphone.

I am PROUD to be an American. I see America's faults, but it is still the world's leader in technology and economy. It is huge and has untapped and unrealized profits from natural resources.

I will NEVER give up my citizenship. IMHO it is THE place to go to if this world goes to shit as Western countries dam_n themselves with deficits and debt. All of them.

There many many bright americans which are being reinforced by an influx of even more bright people every day.

I believe there are more people in the USA that are intelligent and educated than in any other country.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate everybody, the knowledge held by the many US plebs is abysmal.

[NeverSure]

There many many bright americans which are being reinforced by an influx of even more bright people every day.

I believe there are more people in the USA that are intelligent and educated than in any other country.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate everybody, the knowledge held by the many US plebs is abysmal.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate... ??

Just where were you "educated?"

[manarak]

There many many bright americans which are being reinforced by an influx of even more bright people every day.

I believe there are more people in the USA that are intelligent and educated than in any other country.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate everybody, the knowledge held by the many US plebs is abysmal.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate... ??

Just where were you "educated?"

Not in the USA... if I did a mistake, I am very sorry, English is only third language. I thought "USA" is a plural.

[NeverSure]

There many many bright americans which are being reinforced by an influx of even more bright people every day.

I believe there are more people in the USA that are intelligent and educated than in any other country.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate everybody, the knowledge held by the many US plebs is abysmal.

Yet, since the USA don't make every effort to properly educate... ??

Just where were you "educated?"

Not in the USA... if I did a mistake, I am very sorry, English is only third language. I thought "USA" is a plural.

That's OK. I don't know a second language, so I admire that.

It does amaze me how people who know almost nothing of the US and who have never even been there have such firm opinions about it.

It also is noteworthy how many foreigners are trying hard to get residency in the US, which is the best place on earth to live even though not perfect. What place is?

[manarak]

I have visited the USA several times.

The US still surf on a big wave of older goodwill and a huge aura of freedom which was generated in the time before the cold war ended - you can thank Hollywood for a good part of that too.

To be honest, although they may not (anymore) deserve all the hype, the USA still are one of the best places in the world to live in.

[Forethat]

It does amaze me how people who know almost nothing of the US and who have never even been there have such firm opinions about it.

It also is noteworthy how many foreigners are trying hard to get residency in the US, which is the best place on earth to live

I guess the biggest contributing factor to the global urge to live in America and amongst Americans is the aura of humility that surrounds almost every American (I dont think I'm exaggerating when I say most non-Americans are fully aware of this).

[NeverSure]

It does amaze me how people who know almost nothing of the US and who have never even been there have such firm opinions about it.

It also is noteworthy how many foreigners are trying hard to get residency in the US, which is the best place on earth to live

I guess the biggest contributing factor to the global urge to live in America and amongst Americans is the aura of humility that surrounds almost every American (I dont think I'm exaggerating when I say most non-Americans are fully aware of this).

Actually, as Naam said about his 15 years of living in the US as a German, he found his neighbors to be very friendly and helpful compare to almost any other country. I have always found the same.

Truthfully, there is so much US bashing on this forum, that it just creates a different behavior in me than I've ever had anywhere else. So yes, I don't exude an aura of humility about the US on this forum. I get defensive.

I'm not myself in that regard, but only on this forum. But I contend that especially Brits who are now from a country which is totally irrelevant in this world ask for it.

So there.

[wannascuba]

Not sure what all the hoopla with this thread. There are very few us citizens giving up their PP, and those that are have the means to do so - their decision IMHO compared to those wishing to gain US citizenship.

As far as FATCA . Yes a little paperwork involved. I have several overseas accounts and have had no problems being compliant. I also have a good CPA that keeps my tax bill to what I believe to be a fair amount .

Allot to do about nothing in this OP.