Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

By Tom GeogheganBBC News, Washington

The number of Americans giving up their citizenship has rocketed this year - partly, it's thought, because of a new tax law that is frustrating many ex-pats.

Goodbye, US passport.

That's not a concept that Americans contemplate lightly. But it's one that many of them seem to be considering - and acting on.

The number of expatriates renouncing their US citizenship surged in the second quarter of 2013, compared with the same period the year before - 1,131 cases to 189 in 2012. It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad, but it's a significant rise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24135021

Anyone in LOS thinking along these lines ?

Edited September 27, 201312 yr by roamer

It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad, but it's a significant rise.

Giving up ones citizenship only really works, if one has or can take up another nationality....ie you cant be "stateless"

So the question to drtermine if this rise is signiticant or not is to determine how many of the 6 million living abroad have dual nationality or easy access to becoming a dual national, where by they can give up their US citizenship

Surely the ultimate flounce.

What's the big deal? US taxes aren't high, and they are easy to do. There is a company that makes software called TurboTax which will do your taxes question by question style. It covers everything AFAIK. It takes me about an hour to get my stuff together, and about an hour to run TurboTax. Then I file electronically.

I think TurboTax costs about $25 or $30. Install it, run it, and it goes step by step until complete. Many professional tax return places use it.

$5,000 for a tax return? Licensed tax preparers aren't attorneys although some CPA's do taxes for the rich.

I would never give up my citizenship. There are too many benefits and not nearly all of them financial.

After I give all of my money to a bar girl, it's a place to call home, haha.

Never.

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

I personally know a few who did. I am not surprised. You get rid of the unecessary.

No benefit anymore . It s not about tax, it s about freedom! I don't report tax, no fbar, no fatca, no irs, all money I make go straight to my pocket. Because I m an alien.... I can invest where I want... Buy what I want, I can buy a sail boat, go sailing, and I don't have to pay anything to USA. USA is only problems.(100%headach guaranteed) .. Low tax? My ass! Can go up to 40% tax, plus advisers fee, plus vat, at the end, you pay over 60% Tax. Then you have Obama care, one day they will ask you to pay, you expats... I know many usa citizen or guys with green card who relinquished it... Now they feel better, they can have a normal life... This is a concept that you will never understand in the USA. Concept of freedom. If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport, welcome... I will be proud to become a thai citizen. It s funny to see how a poor country like thailand is now more attractive than the #1 country(usa) where even it s own citizen are ready to relinquish their USA nationality. What a slap in the face for the department of state. I bet they will lie on the number of guys abandoning their US nationality to not to lose face or they will treat them to be traitors. ... FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee... Who want this?

Edited September 28, 201312 yr by bonobo
removed profanity

Given how hard it is to gain Thai citizenship I wouldn't think many Americans in LOS would do this; as another posted pointed out, one can't be stateless. Most likely to occur in a country where people are able to get citizenship. Or among people who by reason of birth have dual citizenship to start with.

Much ado about almost nothing.

I suppose for some Americans it's "news" that any Americans even LIVE abroad.

No I would never give it up.

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

I suppose it's like anything else - - depends on how you do it. Can you not divest yourself of all assets in USA, put the money in your pocket and just leave ?

guys with green card who relinquished it...

Giving up PR in a country and giving up citizenship are two very different things...PR/green card can easy be relinquished. one just leaves the particular country for a pre-determined period of time (in most cases) and you lose your PR status automatically anyway

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

I suppose it's like anything else - - depends on how you do it. Can you not divest yourself of all assets in USA, put the money in your pocket and just leave ?

Looking around, apparently so.

And one can not demand to give up their citizenship anywhere. They have to ask nicely. It must be done in a foreign country, and the U.S. embassy official can say, nope, you're ours.

If someone in Thailand gives up their US citizenship, I wonder what happens if they overstay in Thailand. Also what if they want to visit another country. They would also be in an illgeable status in Thailand. These people are a bunch of fools.

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

I suppose it's like anything else - - depends on how you do it. Can you not divest yourself of all assets in USA, put the money in your pocket and just leave ?

Looking around, apparently so.

And one can not demand to give up their citizenship anywhere. They have to ask nicely. It must be done in a foreign country, and the U.S. embassy official can say, nope, you're ours.

I am assuming that the bounder has an alternative nationality available to them, because becoming stateless in a country that has no common language or social welfare system would be extremely foolish

We went through this before with a topic started by a another person who wanted to give up his U.S. citizenship.

In case anyone does want that he or she better do some serious research on the internet or better still contact a U.S. tax lawyer with experience in this matter.

Believe me, I'm far from an expert, but giving up your U.S. citizenship could cost you a LOT of money depending on what property(s) you own in the U.S. in taxes.

From what I read some months ago someone giving up their U.S. citizenship CAN be liable for a large amount in their last 5 years tax bill .... known to some as a "exit tax".

Before you do anything, you should get a U.S. tax lawyer to look into this.

The IRS laws on this are complicated and if you do decide to give up your U.S. citizenship, BEFORE you do it have a long discussion with a U.S. Tax lawyer.

I am NOT an expert, but what little I read before when this topic came up scared me off,

There can be a hefty financial penalty for giving up your U.S. citizenship.

It's NOT a trivial matter.

Not to mention as another poster has said .... if you do give up your U.S. citizenship without another nationality to fall back on .... you are effectively stateless when that happens.

That means without a passport and unable to travel.

I suppose it's like anything else - - depends on how you do it. Can you not divest yourself of all assets in USA, put the money in your pocket and just leave ?

of course you can transfer all assets out of U.S. jurisdiction and then say "good bye". only an idiot unwise person would do otherwise. and the same "unwise" attribute applies to somebody who renounces his citizenship without having obtained another citizenship and a relevant valid passport in his/her pocket.

If someone in Thailand gives up their US citizenship, I wonder what happens if they overstay in Thailand. Also what if they want to visit another country. They would also be in an illgeable status in Thailand. These people are a bunch of fools.

In that case, you become one with the Rohingya.

Wow, .001% of americans renounced their citizenship, eh? sounds like an epidemic only a UK publication could come up with. lol. UKers have been obsessed with bailing out of their country since the days of hips and scurvy and the use of limes to help ease the effects of scurvy.that's no reason to assume that citizens are bailing out of other countries like the USA just because they've been doing such for 1000s of years. I dont go to the UK, been there once.I guess residents just dont care for the place as a general rule and bail to other countries. spo be it. la dee dah. I dont know a single fellow american looking to get out. what would you people call it? bullocks or something?

Edited September 27, 201312 yr by Nana Cowboy

Wow, .001% of americans renounced their citizenship, eh? sounds like an epidemic only a UK publication could come up with. lol. UKers have been obsessed with bailing out of their country since the days of hips and scurvy and the use of limes to help ease the effects of scurvy.that's no reason to assume that citizens are bailing out of other countries like the USA just because they've been doing such for 1000s of years. I dont go to the UK, been there once.I guess residents just dont care for the place as a general rule and bail to other countries. spo be it. la dee dah. I dont know a single fellow american looking to get out. what would you people call it? bullocks or something?

Whats with all the vile anti-British comments ?

But personally know a few colonial cousins who would give up their "land O free" passports up in heart beat if they could, but they cant simply because they do not have dual citizeship or easy access to another nationality and the reasons, Tax is one thing and the belief the US has turned into a facist bully boy country which is fixated on invading other countries (their words not mine)...

but you keep waving the flag dear boy...white picket fenches and apple pie and all

Edited September 27, 201312 yr by Soutpeel

No benefit anymore . It s not about tax, it s about freedom! I don't report tax, no fbar, no fatca, no irs, all money I make go straight to my pocket. Because I m an alien.... I can invest where I want... Buy what I want, I can buy a sail boat, go sailing, and I don't have to pay anything to USA. USA is only problems.(100%headach guaranteed) .. Low tax? My ass! Can go up to 40% tax, plus advisers fee, plus vat, at the end, you pay over 60% Tax. Then you have Obama care, one day they will ask you to pay, you expats... I know many usa citizen or guys with green card who relinquished it... Now they feel better, they can have a normal life... This is a concept that you will never understand in the USA. Concept of freedom. If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport, welcome... I will be proud to become a thai citizen. It s funny to see how a poor country like thailand is now more attractive than the #1 country(usa) where even it s own citizen are ready to relinquish their USA nationality. What a slap in the face for the department of state. I bet they will lie on the number of guys abandoning their US nationality to not to lose face or they will treat them to be traitors. ... FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee... Who want this shit?

Freedom? Sure, there are lots of things I don't like about the US government, but I have a LOT more freedom in the US than I do in LOS.

First, I have a right to be here. I don't need anyone's permission or fill out any paperwork. Just be. That makes it home.

Second, I own my home, for real. I can invest in other properties in my name only.

Third, I have a Glock 23 tucked into an inside-the-waistband holster at 4:00, almost in the small of my back.

Forth, I live outside a city on acreage, and it's legal to shoot on my property. I have my own firing range.

Fifth, medical marijuana is legal here although I've never used it. Easy if I want it.

Sixth, it's legal to home brew beer and wine here. Lots of my friends do.

I could go on and on.

But this is home and the Land of The Free and The Home of The Brave.

What's the big deal? US taxes aren't high, and they are easy to do. There is a company that makes software called TurboTax which will do your taxes question by question style. It covers everything AFAIK. It takes me about an hour to get my stuff together, and about an hour to run TurboTax. Then I file electronically.

I think TurboTax costs about $25 or $30. Install it, run it, and it goes step by step until complete. Many professional tax return places use it.

$5,000 for a tax return? Licensed tax preparers aren't attorneys although some CPA's do taxes for the rich.

Let me put this into perspective for you. H&R block charge about $250 for the most basic tax return with basic W2 form salary only. If you have other forms of income and need to file extra forms the rates go up.

My own situation, for last year is married dual status filing seperately with investments outside of USA. Filing FBAR and 8938 forms with reporting of foreign financial accounts. Then all of a sudden very few "licensed tax preparers" want to even try to file this and you basically need to hire a CPA. Prices suddenly go higher. (No Turbo tax doesn't work for dual status filing either.)

Now that's trying to file your taxes inside the USA. Try finding a person that is an expert in US taxes when you don't live in the USA, then rates to do relatively simple US tax returns when in other countries shoot much higher still. $5000 would seem within reason given the complexity for people with Non-US income and assets.

Taxes are not exactly low either - with SS and Medicare - but it's not about being rich and avoiding taxes at all. For example I have bank accounts and brokerage and investment accounts outside of the USA (I'm not from America so this is not an unusual situation for many new green cardholders) but it become very complex in trying to report correctly, especially when you need to have records for something which was never required in other countries for tax. Capital gains is one example as Thailand doesn't tax it, so record keeping is not needed all of a sudden becomes required.

Another is that the foreign income tax documents are based off of different tax year cycles

For example USA and Thailand is based on the calendar year Jan to Dec, but other countries like Australia is from July to June. Then it becomes a major headache filing taxes to the IRS with incomplete info and using estimates of income.

Sure USA is great and I'm glad your tax returns are easy. But don't assume everyone complaining is a rich person evading taxes. It's far from the reality and I can see why people don't want this stress each and every year.

But on a final note, the few people giving up US citizenship is miniscule to the numbers of people immigrating to america each year.

Edited September 27, 201312 yr by Time Traveller

What's the big deal? US taxes aren't high, and they are easy to do. There is a company that makes software called TurboTax which will do your taxes question by question style. It covers everything AFAIK. It takes me about an hour to get my stuff together, and about an hour to run TurboTax. Then I file electronically.

I think TurboTax costs about $25 or $30. Install it, run it, and it goes step by step until complete. Many professional tax return places use it.

$5,000 for a tax return? Licensed tax preparers aren't attorneys although some CPA's do taxes for the rich.

I would never give up my citizenship. There are too many benefits and not nearly all of them financial.

After I give all of my money to a bar girl, it's a place to call home, haha.

Never.

I am proud to be American, but I have to disagree that our taxes aren't high. I pay 39% - which I think is a bit much for not even living in the States. If I lived Stateside, I'd happily pay, but the world wide tax system we have needs to go. If I am earning my salary outside the US and have no residence in the US why should I have to pay tax on my income? Yes, we get a $96,000 exemption ... but still. The USG needs to get rid of the world wide tax system IMO.

We do not really make a lot of money to worry about taxes. I guess the ones who come to alot of money are the one consider this

Sent from my ST25i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You would have to be a dummy to give up US citizenship. You do realize that the USA passport is one of the easiest to travel under. If you are complaining about taxes then you need to get an accountant that knows what they are doing. Why should you still pay tax on your income if you live abroad? Well because you are still afforded all of the rights of being a US citizen. When shit goes down you will be allowed to run to the closest embassy and exercise those rights.

I've travelled the world, close to 90 countries, and I haven't found a one I would give up my right to come back to the 'good ole USA' for............. Better give a lot of thought to what you are thinking. If you are in LOS (and I DO love Thailand), you are not living off of what you earned in LOS, Think about the country that put you where you are today, instead of being in the shoes of someone born in LOS. I will continue to pay my share and keep my US passport....... Thanks......

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

I have just read the "Summary of FATCA Reporting for US Taxpayer" pdf file and it is not a balance exceeding 50K but the aggregate value of more than the reporting threshold of 50K that has to be reported. So dividing up the assets in different accounts is not going to get around the FATCA rules

Summary of FATCA Reporting for US Taxpayer.pdf

Edited September 28, 201312 yr by puyaidon

Been in usa recently and felt miserable. Same as thai people. They don't like the usa, food is poor, culture Is weak and most usa people are clueless. Seem their brain is not really working at 100%. They accept anything we throw at them. Amazing to see at what point they have been brainwashed by materialism and capitalist endoctrinments. Have you tried to speak to them? Very hard to communicate.... It s all "dude, cool, awesome, yeah, duh!" I don't know but I feel better in thailand than being a poor soul in the usa. Walmart and shopping mall just suck.... And where are the good paid US jobs? In China or what? In usa you are nobody, in thailand, you are somebody! http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com

Wow....sounds like you need a babysitter tour guide next time so you can go to better places and meet more interesting people. Of course, like attracts like, so...there is that.

File under "Travelling--You're doing it wrong"

Edited September 28, 201312 yr by dao16

No benefit anymore . It s not about tax, it s about freedom! I don't report tax, no fbar, no fatca, no irs, all money I make go straight to my pocket. Because I m an alien.... I can invest where I want... Buy what I want, I can buy a sail boat, go sailing, and I don't have to pay anything to USA. USA is only problems.(100%headach guaranteed) .. Low tax? My ass! Can go up to 40% tax, plus advisers fee, plus vat, at the end, you pay over 60% Tax. Then you have Obama care, one day they will ask you to pay, you expats... I know many usa citizen or guys with green card who relinquished it... Now they feel better, they can have a normal life... This is a concept that you will never understand in the USA. Concept of freedom. If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport, welcome... I will be proud to become a thai citizen. It s funny to see how a poor country like thailand is now more attractive than the #1 country(usa) where even it s own citizen are ready to relinquish their USA nationality. What a slap in the face for the department of state. I bet they will lie on the number of guys abandoning their US nationality to not to lose face or they will treat them to be traitors. ... FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee... Who want this shit?

"If USCIS decide to give me a USA passport, I will probably burn it immediately. If Thailand give me a thai passport ..."

I'm sure both the US and Thailand are in negotiations to see who the lucky winner is that will get you.

"FATCA will probably put usa on it s knee..."

Right. Sure thing. That's what'll do it. Good call.

Looks like you can get a Paraguyan passport for $3900 if this article is to be believed. http://www.diplomaticsecondpassport.com/paraguaypassport.html

"H&R block charge about $250 for the most basic tax return with basic W2 form salary only." - False. I worked for H&R Block for several years. The return you describe would be free. A married couple with a couple of W2s, who own their home with a mortgage deduction and a couple of kids - it may be that high depending on other stuff.

I am not an H&R Block advocate - I highly recommend TurboTax if possible in your situation - just wanted to straighten out an error.

Cheers.