Returning to the UK with family

[steady]

Totally off topic post removed, please desist from constant references to the remote chance of Irish ancestry. People come here for straightforward advice.

I happened to read the posting before it was removed and thought that it added another option for the OP, although probably not workable, without knowing everything about the OPs situation that couldn't be certain. Is there any chance of it being re-instated to the thread? I do believe that it adds something because the situation being discussed here is really quite rare. Sometimes straightforward advice isn't the right answer. If nothing else this may help someone to understand what options are limited and what might be do-able.

[7by7]

I, too, saw the post in question before it was removed.

Firstly, in her OP ulike says she is Thai; so the likelihood of her being born on the island of Ireland or having Irish ancestry is extremely remote. Though it is possible that her British husband qualifies.

Secondly, nieces do not qualify as family members under the EEA regulations, unless the adoption is recognised by the UK or she can show the same criteria as she would need to do for an application under Para 297.

Thirdly, even if her husband did qualify for Irish nationality and her niece did qualify as a family member under the EEA regulations, changes to the EEA regulations following the McCarthy judgement mean that they could not use that Irish nationality for her niece to enter the UK as her husband is also a British national; unless he had at some point in the past lived in the Republic.

Ulike does not need red herrings complicating the matter.

Edited December 24, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

My understanding is they both have UK passports. So they are entitled to travel and reside in Eire.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/FAQ_Applying_for_a_Visa

The Republic has a much more generous and relaxed attitude to families hence no spouse visa fees.

If they brought their child to the Irish Republic on a visit visa they would not be faced with deportation because of the child's status.

The child's status could quickly be resolved.

They could then cross the border (or lack of it) and reside in the UK. Now given how hard it it to deport illegal immigrants where would this case go in

the courts?

If I had to fight this case I'd rather do it in Dublin than Muscat.

However I bow to some some experts who have probably never lived in either regime but know more than me (I've experienced both)!

Edited December 24, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

In both the deleted post and in this you are advising the OP to take her niece to the RoI and then bring the child from there into the UK illegally.

Firstly, if she wanted to bring the child to the UK without a settlement visa then as anyone who has read the OP knows, the child already has a valid UK visit visa and so side trips to another country are completely unnecessary.

Secondly, even if the OP took your advice, the child could not lodge a UK settlement application in Dublin whilst in the Republic as a visitor.

Thirdly, bringing the child illegally into the UK will only complicate matters; more than the child overstaying her UK visit visa would.

As someone far more knowledgeable than I said to you here

You appear to have a tendency to make assertions which simply aren't true. This, in the context of internet boards generally, is of little relevance in the scheme of things but it does have a significance in this particular site where folk do hope to gain some knowledge in their own applications. Therefore, when you spout nonsense it can be quite misleading to those foolish enough to attribute some importance to your comments which are seemingly based on your ignorance rather then anything founded upon the truth.

Ulike, it is up to you, of course, how you treat the advice of Jay Sata or anyone else who has contributed to this topic.

Based upon what you have told us, I personally believe that there is no need for side trips to the Republic of Ireland and that with careful preparation a settlement application by your niece will result in her being granted ILE under Para 297.

But it is your choice.

[Jay Sata]

Well it works for some and so do connections.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2528861/It-best-Christmas-present-I-ask-Mother-one-forced-bring-daughter-8-000-miles-husband-delighted-Home-Offices-u-turn-allowing-visa.html

• 30-year-old was denied permission to bring Ecuadorian Alexander Celi-Moreno to live with her and their daughter Olivia in the UK
• Law requires the British partner to have a salary of at least £18,600 a year
• But Home Office officials reversed the decision after Mrs Celi-Parr petitioned David Cameron and her MP Neil Parish

[Jay Sata]

Secondly, even if the OP took your advice, the child could not lodge a UK settlement application in Dublin whilst in the Republic as a visitor.

How can you say that?

If both parties have a British passport they are free to enter the Republic of Ireland and take up employment/residence.

At that point the issue of the child's visa status can quickly be resolved. Once the child is legally adopted in Eire the UK has no involvement or veto.

All the paperwork can be done in Dublin.

The nation does not have the petty rules that prevent families being re-united. Quite the opposite as I've said before there are no punitive 'spouse visa' charges and fact the cost is zero if you marry a Thai or any other nationality.

You appear to suggest that Eire operates the same system as the UK. It does not.

As I've suggested before do not comment on a country or system you are not familiar with.

Please read that Daily Mail article where Ireland was used as a point of contact for the family.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Mr Sata, how many times do you have to be told:

I am not commenting on the Irish visa rules!!! The OP wants to bring her niece to live in the UK and it is the UK rules which I am talking about!!!!!!!!

Got it now?

I do not know why you insist on posting nonsensical advice and links to cases which are totally different to that of the OP.

Members far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, Seekingasylum, TonyM for example, have frequently pointed out to you your complete ignorance of the UK immigration rules and procedures.

I'm begging you for the OP's sake STOP!

[Tony M]

Mr Sata, how many times do you have to be told:

I am not commenting on the Irish visa rules!!! The OP wants to bring her niece to live in the UK and it is the UK rules which I am talking about!!!!!!!!

Got it now?

I do not know why you insist on posting nonsensical advice and links to cases which are totally different to that of the OP.

Members far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, Seekingasylum, TonyM for example, have frequently pointed out to you your complete ignorance of the UK immigration rules and procedures.

I'm begging you for the OP's sake STOP!

I agree with you, 7x7. When challenged, he has never responded to any of my questions regarding his wrong advice. He merely disappears offline for a couple of days, and then reappears, hoping that nobody noticed his poor and wrong advice. His posts should perhaps come with a "health" warning that any response may be just a rehash of something he has Googled, and not necessarily correct.

[ulike]

Gentlemen

This is my thread and my lifeline, please do not let it get closed from fighting. I appreciate everyone. And I thank everyone. I will add another post in a while but for now, please all be nice. It is Christmas!!!!

[7by7]

I see your point, ulike.

Unfortunately, as can be seen, a certain member has a habit of posting irrelevant or incorrect information and then picking a fight when corrected.

My apologies to you for responding to his baiting.

Edited December 28, 2013 by 7by7

[ulike]

If her settlement application is refused that refusal will be on record and could be called up by an Immigration Officer when she next tries to enter the UK. This may cause the IO to suspect that she has no intention of leaving the UK once her visit is over and so could result in her being refused entry. But that's very much a worst case scenario and I'd like to see the opinion of more experienced members on this point.

I don't recall you saying what the term of her visit visa is. If it's a standard six month one then that six months started when the visa was issued, so it could very well have expired by the time her settlement decision has been made.

Hi - I hope that is worst case. Also it is a 2 year visa with more than a year remaining.

[ulike]

_{At this point I would like to add that although no one would argue with the desire to have a competent, knowledgeable and professional lawyer on your side you should not consider yourself too much of a novice. From all the input added to this thread you will know more than most professionals about your own case and you obviously have the ability to read the immigration regulations and fully understand what they mean. Perhaps starting the preparation yourself would not hamper your case at all. From what I've read I think that you could easily prepare a solid case for a visa for your niece. I struggle to see what else could be added to strengthen your case which has not been discussed on this thread.}

_{7by7's advice about trying to get good advice is sound but in my experience you may spend lots of time and money trying to find good professional advice and even then nothing is added to what has been contributed here. That said I do understand your feelings that getting professional help is the answer.}

_{Again, in my experience (and only my experience) the faceless ECOs dealing with my family's earlier visa applications acted in a manner that I found reasonable. I have found that if the case is clearly stated and laid out with the relevant clauses and arguments identified then there is no reason to expect an unsuccessful outcome. (Make sure that the proof is included.)}

_{Although I say all of this I do remember how important it is to get that successful outcome so if you feel that this post doesn't fit with your present thinking and is best ignored I won't be offended.}

I have had bad experience so far with Lawyers but we have a meeting on 6th with another. I think we have made a great start with all the docs for getting the ILE visa we are just now waiting for letter from Thai doctors describing why her Grandma is incapable of looking after here (which was main area of custody case). I think I would like professional to look at the application before submitting BUT I know for sure we will need a good local lawyer to do the local adoption from UK when she is present there!

Steady, I like all your answers and I am so very very thankful to you. And I am also so pleased for you and your lovely family.

[ulike]

Totally off topic post removed, please desist from constant references to the remote chance of Irish ancestry. People come here for straightforward advice.

My husband's Grandma was Irish (posh people who's family had the first car in Ireland....or so he brags to me hehehe) but she fell in love with an English fireman, moved to England and never ever went back to her hometown. Its a love story.

[ulike]

Careful preparation will make life much easier for a solicitor but I suspect the UKV&I are more likely to respond effectively to a legal representative.

Why do you think so, Bob? Thank you

[ulike]

Secondly, nieces do not qualify as family members under the EEA regulations, unless the adoption is recognised by the UK or she can show the same criteria as she would need to do for an application under Para 297.

We were also looking at a family member visa for Spain and living there for six months before the de facto route BUT that was before your advice regards the ILE visa.

[ulike]

My understanding is they both have UK passports. So they are entitled to travel and reside in Eire.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/FAQ_Applying_for_a_Visa

The Republic has a much more generous and relaxed attitude to families hence no spouse visa fees.

If they brought their child to the Irish Republic on a visit visa they would not be faced with deportation because of the child's status.

The child's status could quickly be resolved.

They could then cross the border (or lack of it) and reside in the UK. Now given how hard it it to deport illegal immigrants where would this case go in

the courts?

If I had to fight this case I'd rather do it in Dublin than Muscat.

However I bow to some some experts who have probably never lived in either regime but know more than me (I've experienced both)!

Hello Jay, yes we are both British passport holders now (and I hold Thai nationality also) and we both have Oman residency.

[ulike]

Thirdly, bringing the child illegally into the UK will only complicate matters; more than the child overstaying her UK visit visa would.

Based upon what you have told us, I personally believe that there is no need for side trips to the Republic of Ireland and that with careful preparation a settlement application by your niece will result in her being granted ILE under Para 297.

But it is your choice.

So true. I know that if we simply refuse to leave the UK and tell the local council that they are unlikely to have the UKBA come and take her away from us to deport her into care in Thailand. BUT we would be in the courts for a long long time and we don't want to do it that way, we want to do it the good and right and just way.

I love England, my husband loves England we do not take from the system, we do not abuse the system. My husband says often that for a system of law and order and equality to work then most of the players must be good citizens and have a strong belief in that system and support that system......he even told the policeman that was he got nicked for drink driving and told them to lock him up hehehehe. Foolish man sometimes.

[ulike]

I see your point, ulike.

That's because you are one of the goodies :-)

[7by7]

Totally off topic post removed, please desist from constant references to the remote chance of Irish ancestry. People come here for straightforward advice.

My husband's Grandma was Irish (posh people who's family had the first car in Ireland....or so he brags to me hehehe) but she fell in love with an English fireman, moved to England and never ever went back to her hometown. Its a love story.

In which case I understand that your husband could apply for an Irish passport.

But, that would not help because:-

As said before, your niece would not qualify as a family member under the EEA regulations until you have legally adopted her.

Even if she did qualify as a family member, you could still not use the EEA rules to bring her to the UK because of the change in the regulations in July 2012 following the judgement in the McCarthy case by the European Court.

EUN2.16 Can family members of dual British / Irish nationals qualify for an EEA family permit?

Until 16 July 2012 persons who held British citizenship and who were also nationals of another EEA member state could rely on that EEA nationality to benefit from the terms of the Directive. This was because Regulation 2 of the 2006 Regulations did not preclude such dual national British citizens from benefitting from free right movements.

The definition of EEA national in Regulation 2 was amended on 16 July 2012 to preclude dual British citizens/EEA nationals from benefitting from the Directive and therefore also to preclude their family members from relying upon free movement rights.

[ulike]

Absolutely not. We are looking to submit our docs in 2 weeks for the UK....not Ireland. And imagine trying to trace and prove his rights!!!! No way.

[7by7]

Even if he did, as I say proving his entitlement to an Irish nationality and obtaining an Irish passport wouldn't help you or your niece.

Good luck with the application; please keep us informed.

[ulike]

Will do and thank you for all your help 7by7, you are very kind.

Happy new year.

[ulike]

Hello

Our application is nearly completed now, awaiting some documents from Thailand. We will submit on end of the month. And I would like to thank you all, without thinking of the outcome, for all your efforts time and kind words.

Thank you very much.

If I can be off any help regarding anything Thai or you need any research, please always ask me.

Your virtual friend.

[Jay Sata]

Good luck and I hope it works out well for you all.

[ulike]

Hello Everyone

And, more importantly, hello 7by7 and Steady (though I don't know your real names to properly address you).

I would like to thank you from the end of my heart for the advice effort and guidance. After one failed 297 application due to my husband being a little arrogant and overconfident about his ability and the advice he got from me (here) and also elsewhere from his own sources and also getting shitty immigration legal advice and a wrong decision from an ECO, we reapplied and again and again got some wrong advice from an ECO to move the application forward. At this time, my husband (bless his little soul) realised he made a mad mistake and didn't retainer a good lawyer who understood both immigration and UK family law, he managed to engage a top solicitor who engage a silk who actually contributed as a writer to the bible of Macdonald’s Immigration Law and Practice

And, the end result was the silk step into the application and made contact with the UKVI before the decision was made. The step in was extremely expensive (call, review of application, calls, letters etc) but .....and I am so sad to say this but it seems to be that justice is available for those with financial capabilities. The ILE visa is granted. Steps taken for a specialised adoption and in 5-7 months our girl will be English with out name and a passport.

I do not mean to be arrogant in this post. I mean to share experience. I do not like the face that justice is there only for the high net worth people. Justice, in my opinion is the most important aspect of Britain, justice binds society and people together, it allows a country to develop (and as a Thai I Can say that our justice sucks and does not allow progression) and as a Brit I can say that justice is still not highly developed for Brits but it is logical.

Anyway, I am talking too much.

I will not be posting all details of our case as it is ongoing BUT I will be PM everything to you steady and you 7by7 and you two put us on this path to happiness and although I do not know your names, I will be going to the temple in Wimbledon and maiking merit under your names cause you too are the goodies in this world. And you got me thinking her how to start before the big legal ladies got involved and, for that. I thank you for ever.

My last line ....when 7by7 says TAKE LEGAL ADVICE listen to him and lose the arrogance.

Thank you.

[ulike]

Hello

We are all now back living in the UK and our first appearance in the High Court is about to happen. All being well, we start stage 1 of a 5 stage process next week and expected timeline is 6-8 months for our little one to be formally adopted, take our name and be given British citizenship. Its all very expensive which bothers me as its justice for who can afford.

Thank you again for all your advice everyone, we are all happy now. I will give me info maybe on a new thread about the adoption process as it is all straight forward but will wait until we are more further with the processing.

[ulike]

Hello

A little update if anyone is interested, we now had one court appearance which we didn't have to attend and were granted leave to apply for an adoption order. Half way through local authority checks now and a hearing is set for end October. Our Silk thinks we should have the final hearing before the year end and then my little girl will be formally changing her name and we will have full legal rights. The home office is alerted and no objection raised so she will then get a brit passport also.

We hope everything is done by Christmas as the system is working well now.

Thank you

[7by7]

Thanks for the update.

I hope you get the Christmas present you really want!

[ulike]

My fingers are crossed

[ulike]

Did you read all this information, AngryParent?

If you did, then I think it is clear that every coin and has two sides and had I followed 7by7s advice early on,my family would not have to have suffered so much. And, if his opinion was not right for you at the time, you too should have sort legal advice, right?

Respectfully,

Another parent.