Police helicopter crashes into pub in Glasgow

[Chicog]

Clutha helicopter crash: No mechanical fault found

Investigators have found no evidence of engine or gearbox failure in the police helicopter which crashed into a busy pub in Glasgow killing nine people.

Preliminary findings from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) found the main and tail rotors were not rotating at the time of impact.

The report also stated the Police Scotland helicopter had about 95 litres of fuel when it crashed on The Clutha.

The three crew and six people in the bar died in the crash on 29 November.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25306936

[Bpuumike]

It's breaking news on Sky. Just repeated and added no problem with Engine or Gearbox.

I'll post a link when it comes up.

Good post but to me still begs the question why were they not patrolling along the river. And why where they in the location and altitude when the incident occurred?

Afraid I just don't have the the time to chase these many things up but good if you keep us informed.

[malagateddy]

the latest news is that although there was no major engine/g.box problem, there could have been minor problems, e.g., fuel starvation... the pilot reportedly threw a switch that '' isolated '' the fuel tanks.. 95 litres of fuel in tanks, enough for 25 minutes flying time...a fireball was then averted.

[Chicog]

the latest news is that although there was no major engine/g.box problem, there could have been minor problems, e.g., fuel starvation... the pilot reportedly threw a switch that '' isolated '' the fuel tanks.. 95 litres of fuel in tanks, enough for 25 minutes flying time...a fireball was then averted.

"Sources say the AIIB, which is based in Farnborough, Hampshire, will now look at the helicopter's fuel pumps to ascertain whether a faulty valve could have been responsible for power loss on board the £2.3 million craft.

They are also studying CCTV footage around the crash time, as well as all radio communications and radar data.

Their initial report following the examination says there was no "major mechanical disruption of either engine" and that the "main rotor gearbox was capable of providing drive from the No 2 engine power turbine to the main rotor and to the fenestron (corr) drive shaft."

The source added: "Mechanical disruptions means a break up of parts or a seizure, but it doesn't rule out a loss of power because of fuel starvation in one engine, for example.

"Maybe a fuel pump went in one engine, it sounds like something cut the fuel supply to the engine.

"A fuel delivery system wouldn't constitute a mechanical problem.""

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/447698/Glasgow-helicopter-crash-Nothing-mechanically-wrong-with-aircraft?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+(Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed)

[Bpuumike]

the latest news is that although there was no major engine/g.box problem, there could have been minor problems, e.g., fuel starvation... the pilot reportedly threw a switch that '' isolated '' the fuel tanks.. 95 litres of fuel in tanks, enough for 25 minutes flying time...a fireball was then averted.

"Sources say the AIIB, which is based in Farnborough, Hampshire, will now look at the helicopter's fuel pumps to ascertain whether a faulty valve could have been responsible for power loss on board the £2.3 million craft.

They are also studying CCTV footage around the crash time, as well as all radio communications and radar data.

Their initial report following the examination says there was no "major mechanical disruption of either engine" and that the "main rotor gearbox was capable of providing drive from the No 2 engine power turbine to the main rotor and to the fenestron (corr) drive shaft."

The source added: "Mechanical disruptions means a break up of parts or a seizure, but it doesn't rule out a loss of power because of fuel starvation in one engine, for example.

"Maybe a fuel pump went in one engine, it sounds like something cut the fuel supply to the engine.

"A fuel delivery system wouldn't constitute a mechanical problem.""

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/447698/Glasgow-helicopter-crash-Nothing-mechanically-wrong-with-aircraft?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+(Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed)

I don't know the Eurocopter but 95 litres avgas are not going to get you far in anything and certainly not any reserve.

Back to my original questions, why was it not patrolling along the river course and at more altitude?

As per usual, once the dramatic public headlines have died down you will have to go to the professional sites for info.

[7by7]

Back to my original questions, why was it not patrolling along the river course and at more altitude?

It was returning to the heliport and both that and the bar are very close to the river and about 2 miles apart.

Clutha helicopter crash: AAIB finds 'no evidence' of mechanical fault

The report said that the helicopter took off at 20:45 with 400kg of fuel on board.

It stayed over an area of Glasgow's south side for about 30 minutes before making a short 10 minute foray over Dalkeith in Midlothian, some 38 nautical miles away.

The helicopter was granted permission to re-enter Glasgow air space at 22:18.

[Jay Sata]

Speaking as a fixed wing and helicopter pilot of 30 years can I correct a couple of points. The map above demonstrates it was not returning to base but diverted north towards the end of the sortie. It then resumed a track to base.

This type of helicopter has twin engines both burning Avtur which is similar to diesel and not Avgas which is similar to petrol. Engine failure of both units is rare.

Most of these police operations are 'routine' which is police speak for chasing petty criminals or minor car theft/chases.

The most likely scenario is the single pilot was caught out by either running low on fuel or some other cockpit malfunction. Single pilot ops at night present a high workload when things go wrong. I've flown most of my flying hours both day and night single pilot across Europe,the US and Australia and if I had a choice a second pilot would have been a big safety consideration.

In my opinion it's not sensible to give a police pilot a huge workload when a commercial airliner would never be allowed to fly with one pilot.

At low level he did what we would all do in such a scenario and tried an emergency auto rotation on to the only available site which was the flat roof of the pub. I suspect he flared too early hence the high vertical impact which left the rotors and upper airframe appearing intact.

Despite having no flight recorder ('black box') there are various sensors at key locations in the airframe and engines plus a transponder which can recreate the flight. These will have been interpreted by the AAIB before releasing their report which clears the airframe and engines.

In a couple of words...pilot error as per the Shetland incident where two pilots let a helicopter descend in to the sea.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jay Sata

[jpinx]

.................

In my opinion it's not sensible to give a police pilot a huge workload when a commercial airliner would never be allowed to fly with one pilot.

.............................

In a couple of words...pilot error as per the Shetland incident where two pilots let a helicopter descend in to the sea.

........................

Kinda comes out against your own argument

[Chicog]

12 December 2013 Last updated at 09:38 ET

Glasgow crash helicopters grounded by Bond Air Services

The Police Scotland EC 135 crashed into The Clutha bar on 29 November

Bond Air Services has suspended flights of its EC 135 helicopter - the same model which crashed on to The Clutha bar in Glasgow, killing nine people.

The grounding comes after a fault was discovered on an EC 135 operated by Bond for the North West Air Ambulance.

Sky News said they've been told the fault is in a fuel gauge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25353001

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chicog

[Chicog]

According to Sky, 57 of these aircraft are in operation the UK. 16 of 36 air ambulances are currently grounded.

Confirmed by Eurocopter that it was a fuel gauge that was the source of the grounding. However, there was ample fuel in the one that crashed.

[Bpuumike]

Back to my original questions, why was it not patrolling along the river course and at more altitude?

It was returning to the heliport and both that and the bar are very close to the river and about 2 miles apart.

Clutha helicopter crash: AAIB finds 'no evidence' of mechanical fault

The report said that the helicopter took off at 20:45 with 400kg of fuel on board.

It stayed over an area of Glasgow's south side for about 30 minutes before making a short 10 minute foray over Dalkeith in Midlothian, some 38 nautical miles away.

The helicopter was granted permission to re-enter Glasgow air space at 22:18.

OK, I don't know the area but much more clear than the original 'maps' presented.

Thanks for an informative contribution.

[Jay Sata]

The big problem with SOP's (standard operating procedures) and very reliable aircraft is the pilot taking his eye of the game.

The Air France 447 accident is a prime example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Pitot icing or faulty fuel gauges the bottom line is the pilot is employed to fly the aircraft. Modern aircraft do the job for you to the point where the accident takes place.

[Bpuumike]

The big problem with SOP's (standard operating procedures) and very reliable aircraft is the pilot taking his eye of the game.

The Air France 447 accident is a prime example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Pitot icing or faulty fuel gauges the bottom line is the pilot is employed to fly the aircraft. Modern aircraft do the job for you to the point where the accident takes place.

Complacency, inexcusable but human nature.

Hence the need for 2 flight deck crew who should be repeating and confirming every action and the aircraft situation.

[Showbags]

Twin engines with possible high workloads which could/would be the case for a police heli, should be 2 pilot ops.

Twins just doing glorified taxi jaunts, not so much.....unless you are royalty or some VVVIP

[jpinx]

There are a couple of aspects to this sad incident which will not become clear until official sources supply the information. Was the aircraft simply RTB or was it doing some police business around the bar area? This could give indication of the speed/altitude when the incident began, and the possibilites available to the crew. The assertions that the engines were running and/or capable of delivering power to the gearbox, but the rotor blades were stopped make no sense whatsoever.

There's no more workload on a police helicopter than in various other single pilot ops. There were 2 police officers on board to do the police business, the pilot is just the driver going where he is asked.

[jpinx]

Twin engines with possible high workloads which could/would be the case for a police heli, should be 2 pilot ops.

Twins just doing glorified taxi jaunts, not so much.....unless you are royalty or some VVVIP

Number of engines was little bearing on workload - in fact 2 engines makes the aircraft easier to fly manually since there is little likelyhood of engine power limits being exceeded if the transmission torque is within limits. Flying a single engined helicopter means constantly considering the terrain you are flying over in the event you need to put it down somewhere - which is why single-engined night ops are not straighforward. This aircraft was capable of continued flight on one engine only, especially at the end of a sortie and light because of the fuel remaining being considerably less. It's not like the earlier twins like the Bo105 where the 2nd engine was really just a means of delaying your arrival at the scene of the accident.