Thai opposition turns to farmers as political stalemate lingers

[TVGerry]

We all know what this rice scam is all about. To enrich a few PTP crony middlemen while at the same time securing the votes of the rice farmers during the last election. Look what has happened now. The whole scheme has been exposed and the farmers whom the Shinawatras are pretending to care about have been screwed over big time.Something that was supposed to make their lives better has made it so much worse that some have even killed themselves. And Thai taxpayers are getting robbed of billions of their hard earned money to support this scam.

You obviously don't know how governments work. Do you really think all government programs around the world, in the United States, in the UK, in other European countries, etc. are money making machines and none of them post any losses?

Some programs make money, others lose money. It's like that everywhere around the world.

You're living in a dream world.

It's truly amusing when the little reds try to defend the rice scheme scam by comparing it with government programs in developed countries to help the less fortunate. Living in a dream world indeed!

[JRSoul]

We all know what this rice scam is all about. To enrich a few PTP crony middlemen while at the same time securing the votes of the rice farmers during the last election. Look what has happened now. The whole scheme has been exposed and the farmers whom the Shinawatras are pretending to care about have been screwed over big time.Something that was supposed to make their lives better has made it so much worse that some have even killed themselves. And Thai taxpayers are getting robbed of billions of their hard earned money to support this scam.

You obviously don't know how governments work. Do you really think all government programs around the world, in the United States, in the UK, in other European countries, etc. are money making machines and none of them post any losses?

Some programs make money, others lose money. It's like that everywhere around the world.

You're living in a dream world.

Government schemes designed to benefit one section of society may run at a loss, but a very close watch is kept on cost/benefit analysis. Here we have a scheme with huge cost, little benefit and no attempt to modify it. At best it is incompetence.

When analysis is done and it is proven that members of the government benefited from a failed policy, and continued it after its failure was obvious, accusations of corruption are warranted. As this policy was tried and proved to be a corruption nightmare previously, and was re-installed without change, how can it be defended?

[JRSoul]

How do "rice farmers benefit from getting paid way more than their crops were worth" when they are not paid?

If $6 billion has been lost each year, why are rice farmers not showing obvious signs of increased wealth?

According to the discussion "the government spent $21 billion buying the grain from the two crop years starting October 2011". Therefore it assumes payment has already been made, even if only on paper. Therefore since said payment made was way above market prices, the farmers were paid way more than their crops were worth. Kapish?

As for "signs of increased wealth" amongst those who have already recieved cash payment in full, far beyond their expectations, obviously they have increased their wealth regardless of whether you've seen signs of it or not.

Your argument fails on 2 levels. Farmers are NOT being paid now, and payments "on paper" are worth less than toilet tissue when the payments are not forthcoming.

Your second point regarding my perception relies on all that dosh actually being paid to farmers, when that is far from the case. If PTP has handed 3 million farmers $2000 each per year, I would expect to see signs of prosperity and lower debt levels, and Thailand would still have a viable rice industry.

The topic assumes payment being made & rice sold at a loss relative to that payment, so you are off topic.

Moreover you generalize about farmers not being paid when in reality many have been paid since 2011 & non payment only regards some recent payments since later 2013.

BTW i don't see 3 million farmers protesting, only a minute percentage of that far less than one percent.

The topic makes 2 wrong assumptions (according to you). Rice is not being sold and payments are not being made, and those that are paid are from increased debt, not rice sales.

Those protesting are representatives of those not paid, who strangely enough can't come to protest because they don't have the money to do so.

This is/was a highly expensive failed policy riddled with corruption. Your defence of it is a joke, unless of course your family is a beneficiary and then it is quite understandable why you would want it to continue.

[oldthaihand99]

You obviously don't know how governments work. Do you really think all government programs around the world, in the United States, in the UK, in other European countries, etc. are money making machines and none of them post any losses?

Some programs make money, others lose money. It's like that everywhere around the world.

You're living in a dream world.

It's truly amusing when the little reds try to defend the rice scheme scam by comparing it with government programs in developed countries to help the less fortunate. Living in a dream world indeed!

Those "government programs" are always amazing success stories. Yeah right.

How many billions of USD have been blown on 100% useless space programs, wars for oil & the like.

I

Wow suddenly the rice scam is being compared to the space program and the war in Iraq. Grasping at straws here just a tad bit aren't we?

"It is a rice subsidy, just like in the rest of the world where governments put in direct agricultural subsidies (free money to farmers / traders by buying at higher than market price, or paying a large amount of the costs).

"You seem to think this is the first harvest?

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years.

"You seem to avoid the issue that every government in the world, including the USA and EU,"lose money" (better know as running a budget deficit) by pumping cash into agriculture by way of direct subsidies. Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?"

[TVGerry]

.

I

Wow suddenly the rice scam is being compared to the space program and the war in Iraq. Grasping at straws here just a tad bit aren't we?

"It is a rice subsidy, just like in the rest of the world where governments put in direct agricultural subsidies (free money to farmers / traders by buying at higher than market price, or paying a large amount of the costs).

"You seem to think this is the first harvest?

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years.

"You seem to avoid the issue that every government in the world, including the USA and EU,"lose money" (better know as running a budget deficit) by pumping cash into agriculture by way of direct subsidies. Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?"

You little reds don't seem to get it through your tiny little heads do you? The idea of a farming subsidy to help poor farmers is one thing. They do it all over the world. Fine.

However this rice scam was never about helping farmers. It was about enriching the middle men and yes iy was about getting their votes. The fact that after just a couple of years, they actually ran out of money to pay the farmers shows how corrupt it is and how it failed. Furthermore, the fact that the country has dropped from number 1 to number 3 in world rice production shows how it has screwed the country. Now farmers and their families are even worse off then before. Stop embarrassing yourself trying to justify this failed scheme. It's so funny when red spin doctors have the cheek to compare this scam to the legitimate programs by other countries where the farmers really do get help and don't have to end up killing themselves.

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Tell that to the farmers who killed themselves.

Edited February 11, 2014 by TVGerry

[JRSoul]

"It is a rice subsidy, just like in the rest of the world where governments put in direct agricultural subsidies (free money to farmers / traders by buying at higher than market price, or paying a large amount of the costs).

"You seem to think this is the first harvest?

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years.

"You seem to avoid the issue that every government in the world, including the USA and EU,"lose money" (better know as running a budget deficit) by pumping cash into agriculture by way of direct subsidies. Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?"

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Even Yingluk isn't stupid enough to try that line.

[oldthaihand99]

However this rice scam was never about helping farmers. It was about enriching the middle men and yes iy was about getting their votes.

Do you follow many conspiracy theories.

[attento]

Butter mountains, grain mountains, milk lakes its nothing new and yes it matters here because its a "special" place with "special" people

But, 25 - 30 years ago, EEC milk producers and the grain farmers were paid - on time !

That's the issue. It's not about 'special' people, it's about political naïveté and/or incompetance in this case.

Whether the Rice scheme was the best option to help farmers is a different matter. Once embarked upon, a competent government would have ensured adequate funds were available for prompt payment.

Edited February 11, 2014 by attento

[TVGerry]

However this rice scam was never about helping farmers. It was about enriching the middle men and yes iy was about getting their votes.

Do you follow many conspiracy theories.

You yourself wrote:

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money."

And yet we have farmers who are broke and who have killed themselves. Who do you think really made 'loads of money'?

It's amusing people can defend a scheme that supposedly helps the poor but ends up causing them even more hardship. But hey, we've come to expect that from the reds and their acolytes. Repeat after me, the Shinawatras can do no wrong.

[oldthaihand99]

It's so funny when red spin doctors have the cheek to compare this scam to the legitimate programs by other countries where the farmers really do get help and don't have to end up killing themselves.

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Tell that to the farmers who killed themselves.

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

[TVGerry]

It's so funny when red spin doctors have the cheek to compare this scam to the legitimate programs by other countries where the farmers really do get help and don't have to end up killing themselves.

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Tell that to the farmers who killed themselves.

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

Victim blaming now! Oh how I love the red apologists!

[oldthaihand99]

Furthermore, the fact that the country has dropped from number 1 to number 3 in world rice production shows how it has screwed the country. Now farmers and their families are even worse off then before.

Screwed the country? Do you expect mass exits of Thais to Vietnam & India so they can live in a non "screwed" country? Perhaps some perspective is in order here:

"Thaksin introduced a range of policies to alleviate rural poverty; highly popular, they helped reduce poverty by half in four years.[25][26]

"...He launched the country's first universal healthcare program,[27] the 30-baht scheme, as

well as a highly notorious drug suppression campaign.[28] Thaksin embarked on a massive program of infrastructure investment, including roads, public transit, and Suvarnabhumi Airport.

"Nevertheless, public sector debt fell from 57% of GDP in January 2001 to 41% in September 2006. [29][30] Levels of corruption were perceived to have fallen, with Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index improving from 3.2 to 3.8 between 2001 and 2005.[31] The Thai Rak Thai party won an unprecedented landslide in the 2005 general election, which had the highest voter turnout in Thai history.[32][33][34]"

[TVGerry]

Furthermore, the fact that the country has dropped from number 1 to number 3 in world rice production shows how it has screwed the country. Now farmers and their families are even worse off then before.

Screwed the country? Do you expect mass exits of Thais to Vietnam & India so they can live in a non "screwed" country? Perhaps some perspective is in order here:

"Thaksin introduced a range of policies to alleviate rural poverty; highly popular, they helped reduce poverty by half in four years.[25][26]

"...He launched the country's first universal healthcare program,[27] the 30-baht scheme, as

well as a highly notorious drug suppression campaign.[28] Thaksin embarked on a massive program of infrastructure investment, including roads, public transit, and Suvarnabhumi Airport.

"Nevertheless, public sector debt fell from 57% of GDP in January 2001 to 41% in September 2006. [29][30] Levels of corruption were perceived to have fallen, with Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index improving from 3.2 to 3.8 between 2001 and 2005.[31] The Thai Rak Thai party won an unprecedented landslide in the 2005 general election, which had the highest voter turnout in Thai history.[32][33][34]"

Thread is about rice farmers and rice scam. Rice scam fails miserably and cannot be defended so red apologist has to find quotes from somewhere about how Thaksin supposedly made the country better! You have truly gone above and beyond the call of duty as a red apologist and spin doctor!

[oldthaihand99]

It's so funny when red spin doctors have the cheek to compare this scam to the legitimate programs by other countries where the farmers really do get help and don't have to end up killing themselves.

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Tell that to the farmers who killed themselves.

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

Victim blaming now! Oh how I love the red apologists!

So everyone who commits suicide in your fantasy universe is a "victim" who "had to" do it? That implies they bear no responsibility whatever for their own actions. BTW i once read that psychiatists had the highest rate of suicides. What was it that victimized them so that they "had to" commit hari kari.

[TVGerry]

It's so funny when red spin doctors have the cheek to compare this scam to the legitimate programs by other countries where the farmers really do get help and don't have to end up killing themselves.

"Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years."

Tell that to the farmers who killed themselves.

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

Victim blaming now! Oh how I love the red apologists!

So everyone who commits suicide in your fantasy universe is a "victim" who "had to" do it? That implies they bear no responsibility whatever for their own actions. BTW i once read that psychiatists had the highest rate of suicides. What was it that victimized them so that they "had to" commit hari kari.

Not everyone but in this case rice farmers who are up to their neck in debt and who can't feed their families because this government screwed them over with the rice scam. People like you are disgusting. We have farmers who are right at the edge of the cliff because of the incompetence of the Shinawatras but you put the blame on the victims just so you can defend your deities. Talk about brainwashed!

[JRSoul]

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. Voting for PTP?

[ppmacready]

This is the bit that will perk up International observers who to date have indicated very little understanding of the scale of the alleged corruption!

Quote// The government spent $21 billion buying the grain from the two crop years starting October 2011. The World Bank estimated the annual loss at 200 billion baht ($6.1 billion). The International Monetary Fund in November called for the program to be replaced, while Moodys Investors Service said in June that losses from rice subsidies were credit negative for Thailands sovereign rating. //

To put it into context $6.1 billion represents @ 60% of the UK's contribution to the EU, or, roughly represents the cost of one of UK's new QE class aircraft carriers including 40 aircraft! http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Ships/Future-Ships/Queen-Elizabeth-Class.

It should be stressed to the Red believers of populist policies that the losses of $6.1 billion are per annum!

Yes the quicker we go back to the good old yellow shirt days the better.

When I only had to pay 200 bht a day to have my toilet cleaned.

[casualbiker]

We all know what this rice scam is all about. To enrich a few PTP crony middlemen while at the same time securing the votes of the rice farmers during the last election. Look what has happened now. The whole scheme has been exposed and the farmers whom the Shinawatras are pretending to care about have been screwed over big time.Something that was supposed to make their lives better has made it so much worse that some have even killed themselves. And Thai taxpayers are getting robbed of billions of their hard earned money to support this scam.

You obviously don't know how governments work. Do you really think all government programs around the world, in the United States, in the UK, in other European countries, etc. are money making machines and none of them post any losses?

Some programs make money, others lose money. It's like that everywhere around the world.

You're living in a dream world.

The main problem with this argument is that THIS government program was supposed to be self financing (revolving fund) and it's intention was to force a rise in world rice prices. Therefore being "profitable "

Did it meet those requirements in any way?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kerrysum]

Thai Farm Aid: another political slush fund designed to fill the personal coffers of politicians on both sides of the aisle.

You are the farmers,

We are the go-between/caretakers

For what have you profited?

Whom will feed the people?

We needed votes from the sweat off of your backs...

WE talked in such a polite manner,

While we took the very things that you worked for,

With little return......

[oldthaihand99]

Re these alleged suicides, did the farmers "have to" kill themselves? No. There are people far worse off than them who don't act like kamikaze pilots. They just made an extremely stupid & selfish decision. End of story.

Victim blaming now! Oh how I love the red apologists!

So everyone who commits suicide in your fantasy universe is a "victim" who "had to" do it? That implies they bear no responsibility whatever for their own actions. BTW i once read that psychiatists had the highest rate of suicides. What was it that victimized them so that they "had to" commit hari kari.

Not everyone but in this case rice farmers who are up to their neck in debt and who can't feed their families because this government screwed them over with the rice scam. People like you are disgusting. We have farmers who are right at the edge of the cliff because of the incompetence of the Shinawatras but you put the blame on the victims just so you can defend your deities. Talk about brainwashed!

Did the farmers leave a note why they killed themselves?

Killing yourself is going to help feed your family?

Can't feed them? Suthep is recieving millions of baht in BKK & giving away free food.

Even in prison people get free food. No one with half a brain needs to starve.

Name calling & personal attacks are the last resort of those whose pathetic arguments have been exposed as rubbish.

[TVGerry]

Did the farmers leave a note why they killed themselves?

Killing yourself is going to help feed your family?

Can't feed them? Suthep is recieving millions of baht in BKK & giving away free food.

Even in prison people get free food. No one with half a brain needs to starve.

Name calling & personal attacks are the last resort of those whose pathetic arguments have been exposed as rubbish.

The family and friends of the farmers who killed themselves put this squarely on the stress of being in debt because the government didn't pay them. You going to call them liars just so you can protect your Shinwatra deities?

Read your own propaganda crap before calling other people rubbish. Your defense of the Shinawatras is what's real rubbish.

Edited February 12, 2014 by TVGerry

[Thait Spot]

Now who was it that called me naive because I said that suthep was using the farmers, and their viewpoint was that he was helping them?

First Reuters and now Bloomberg have seen through sutheps BS, even if some posters on this forum haven't.

The demonstrators led by former opposition lawmaker Suthep Thaugsuban are looking to capitalize on a potential crack in Yingluck’s rural support base, inviting farmers to speak on protest stages and raising money to help them file lawsuits against her government.

It would have to be said that stating the bleeding obvious will not put you in the lead for a Pulitzer prize but getting things almost right once in a while is commendable.

Suthep's main intention in doing this was to make Thaksin and his remaining followers look useless.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[oldthaihand99]

Did the farmers leave a note why they killed themselves?

Killing yourself is going to help feed your family?

Can't feed them? Suthep is recieving millions of baht in BKK & giving away free food.

Even in prison people get free food. No one with half a brain needs to starve.

Name calling & personal attacks are the last resort of those whose pathetic arguments have been exposed as rubbish.

Read your own propaganda crap before calling other people rubbish. Your defense of the Shinawatras is what's real rubbish.

I didn't call anyone rubbish, but targeted arguments. You're the one using personal attacks.

[Thait Spot]

We all know what this rice scam is all about. To enrich a few PTP crony middlemen while at the same time securing the votes of the rice farmers during the last election. Look what has happened now. The whole scheme has been exposed and the farmers whom the Shinawatras are pretending to care about have been screwed over big time.Something that was supposed to make their lives better has made it so much worse that some have even killed themselves. And Thai taxpayers are getting robbed of billions of their hard earned money to support this scam.

You obviously don't know how governments work. Do you really think all government programs around the world, in the United States, in the UK, in other European countries, etc. are money making machines and none of them post any losses?

Some programs make money, others lose money. It's like that everywhere around the world.

You're living in a dream world.

You're obfuscation is dire.

18% of the money hit the g-spot.

That's the crime.

Not posting a loss

Making the bank accounts of non-farmers fat with cash was not the campaign slogan.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[TVGerry]

Did the farmers leave a note why they killed themselves?

Killing yourself is going to help feed your family?

Can't feed them? Suthep is recieving millions of baht in BKK & giving away free food.

Even in prison people get free food. No one with half a brain needs to starve.

Name calling & personal attacks are the last resort of those whose pathetic arguments have been exposed as rubbish.

Read your own propaganda crap before calling other people rubbish. Your defense of the Shinawatras is what's real rubbish.

I didn't call anyone rubbish, but targeted arguments. You're the one using personal attacks.

You are what you post. You write like you're brainwashed, you are brainwashed.

[Shaunduhpostman]

There were some posts earlier suggesting that it was merely some people's impression that the farmers haven't paid and that they are all getting rich.

I don't know, perhaps you didn't see the reports about a month ago, maybe even less, 2 articles posted right here on our favorite website Thai Visa giving us some numbers. As I recall, according to the spokesman for a farmer's group in Surin and the agricultural bank there, only 10 percent of the farmers had been paid for this season's harvest. There was a 2nd article on here that reported that only twenty percent had been paid in Mahasarakham. And for it might be worth, nobody has been paid in the village I stay in Kalasin province. All that would suggest the situation is likely similar in many other provinces.

Them's the numbers, I'm afraid. And I think we wouldn't see Yingluck coming out and having to claim the govt. isn't broke we'll pay you yadda yadda if most had been paid out already.