Foreign media strive to avoid simplistic portrayal of Thai woes

[LeamchabangLarry]

HMMMMMM.... But isn't saying the Dems are the PDRC over-simplifying the issue to the point of distortion?

The democrats and the PDRC are totally different and don't even totally agree on a lot of issues.

I think you need to explain that the Dems never once voiced support for the blocking of the election. They just didn't agree with it.

This once again demonstrates the narrow vision of the foreign media. They probably don't even realise how much they distort the actual picture to the rest of the world.

Remember that dumba$$ CNN idiot Dan Rivers? That fool just mailed in his reporting without a single care of the actual issues at hand.

Yes, the word democracy is thrown around conveniently but at least they are trying to dig deeper this time around.

And I for one am glad we kicked that idiot Dan Rivers so far out of this country he's nowhere to be seen

as a point of interest (with no schadenfreude) Dan Rivers is now covering local news for iTV in Wales.

This is what happens to lazy reporters. Eventually natural selection and karma have their day.

[SICHONSTEVE]

The fact of the matter is that foreign media correspondents continue to place the focus solely on what they see as the 'undemocratic' issue of the opposition not wanting to partake in elections until reforms had been put in place to ensure that such elections were free and fair. As a result, they have failed to outline the numerous infractions of this government to the outside world.

Many overseas observers are well aware that Thaksin is a convicted person who cannot return to Thailand, but they are fed additional suggestions by the foreign media that the convictions against him "may have been" politically motivated, which is pure nonsense. He was convicted fairly and squarely for fraudulent actions whilst in office.

They also paint a picture of his sister being a good prime minister, which of course, is far from true. I think they should place emphasis on the fact that she has neither the background nor the training for the role, and that in fact, Thailand is currently being run by the convict in exile. Greater emphasis should also be placed on the missing billions during the PTP tenure, focusing particularly on the NACC probe, which is likely to see Yingluck impeached, and probably, imprisoned.

Jonathan Head is an embarrassment to us, as he can see no further then the nose on his face. If the outside world were provided with the full details of the rape and pillage of this country during the PTP tenure, then perhaps there would be less sympathy for Yingluck, a little more sympathy for the impact that it has had on the grass roots people of Thailand, and perhaps a little more than a suggestion for more women in politics from the UN...!!

Everything here is politically motivated and manipulated George, be it real corruption or an anti democratic attempt to install a peoples council. its really not complicated other than the fact there are factions and people that cannot be discussed by law here to fill in the details.

It really is simply the rich few and unelectable just demanding they control the majority because they cant do it democratically. Nothing complicated about the basics of it.

No need for sympathy because the system allowed it to happen due to the many coups and instability of governments over the past 80 years. That people here think the rest of the world dosnt get it just goes to show the effect of draconian laws here on the psyche. They get it pretty well at the basic level everyone else isnt wrong m8 its the ones here with blinkers on turned inwards that dont get it... the rest of the world does.

Tosh, as usual.

I cannot find one investigative journalist who had really probed the actions of a government forced to dissolve parliament. All fluffy powdery sugar coated stuff. AFP, with its repeated 'adored' Thaksin phrase, the lightweight Head with his sympathetic BBC reports. The interviews YL gave were laughable. Only Veronica Pedrozza pushed, and soon realized she wasn't going to get any intelligent or coherent responses.

Thaksin's PR machine, coupled with left leaning foreign journalists presents a very slanted view. What is really sad, is these so called journalists still see PTP as the 'people's party" and Thaksin as some kind of savior, completely ignoring the plight of the farmers and the massive underlying corruption.

The rest of the world, by and large, couldn't give a toss. And the lack of real reporting ain't gonna change that.

When YL and co get probed and maybe charged with corruption, how many foreign journalists will really follow this, dig a bit like real journalists? And how many will simply try and dismiss all the charges as politically motivated just like her brothers fraud conviction?

Nicely put!!!

Unfortunately it will be dismissed by those with stereotyped brains that are programmed to delete or ignore any common sense postings that differ from that they have been brain washed (by their Isaan wives parents) to believe!!

I bet those farangs married to 'farmer family' wives are in a state of confusion as to where their loyalties lie now they are reaping what they sowed (literally) with the rice scam fiasco.

Let those court cases begin. What is funny is that Yingluck must think for herself this time and defend herself against something some of the best lawyers in the world would struggle to do so. I would love to see her discomfort as she makes a fool of herself, unfortunately it won't come anywhere near that faced by those families of the desperate suicide victims on account of Yingluck's greedy friends and colleagues with their rampant corruption!!

[PaullyW]

I doubt foreigners view Thais as simple......i'd be right in that reckoning right ?

Only insomuch as one might regard a child as being simple. If you can understand basic human urges (absent much thought process) -- just raw animal instinct - then you can probably understand most Thais.

[Thai at Heart]

It's not a rebuttal at all. I am just saying that I don't agree with your version of events one iota.

You stick to your story and I'll believe mine!!

Steve, you're floundering here mate. Do some reading and you'll find there's a considerable body of evidence that vote buying is, and has been, endemic in Thai politics and is by no means restricted to one party. Even if votes are "bought" there is no guarantee that the buyer will vote for the party that paid them.

I really don't think that it is that important or relevant and I will decline the opportunity to check up on this 'considerable body of evidence' as I have other things to do.

I am just happy that the courts will be dealing with Yingluck and her gang of thieves soon and they will wave their judicial wands and she will be no more!!!

Now that's worth talking about as it makes me feel very happy that justice will have been served!!.

Steve, that is the most incredible climb down I have ever witnessed. Are you going to turn off your computer and stop posting while your scweem and scweem until your sick?

[SICHONSTEVE]

I tend to do other things that are more interesting when I get bored.

I am currently following the England U19 against Sri Lanka U19 - England are presently 131/5 after 35.3 overs with Ja Tatterswell going well - feel free to carry on doing what you are doing

[Publicus]

It is certainly true that the international media have been continually at odds with grasping the domestic political situation in Thailand. In brief, it falls short of the mark because it takes a highly complex situation and tries to fit it into a 30 second sound-bite. It can't be done, of course. So the simplification of it becomes necessary to make it fit. One way is to frame it as a clear polarity that everyone can fully grasp without the impediments and inconvenience of gray areas or inconsistencies. Then it is further " sanitized " for Western consumption, tying to make it fit comfortably with Western assumptions that conform more easily with their own experience. It's ironic, because at a time when we would naturally go to Western media for some sense of direction, they are actually - by and large - behind domestic coverage and understanding of the situation. And since recently Thailand was scored two placements behind Afghanistan in terms of global press freedom, that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

Consumers of news in Peoria, Illinois, USA, don't give a rat's arse about villiage poo yai in Thailand or about Thaksin, or about "Mark", and neither do Western news consumers care about a rice warehouse fire in Thailand, or any such thing so remote from their everyday lives in every meaning of the word.This is true also of news consumers in Derby, UK, Wollongong, Australia.

Pedestrian critics of media around here fail to be rooted or grounded in the reality of what constitutes news as it is presented at a school of journalism and by editors at professional, respected news organizations of the native English world.

The Standard News Manual referenced below, with its link that bears some reasonably respectable glance by TVF carping would-be media critics, presents the central question journalists by education, training, practice, are required to observe in their reporting, which is: How does this affect my readers', listeners' or viewers’ lives?

In Peoria, Derby, Wollongong, hardly if at all - very much most likely, not at all.

Anyone who wants to assume the Quixotic undertaking of changing the fundamental precepts of native English language journalsim and of its practice, please charge ahead because it will take you away from here for the rest of your natural life.

To decide what you should report, you must sort out news from non-news. To do this, ask yourself the following questions about anything you think may be news:

• Is it new?
• Is it unusual?
• Is it interesting?
• Is it significant?
• Is it about people?

To decide how to report it, ask yourself the following question:

• How does this affect my readers', listeners' or viewers’ lives?

If it is not new or unusual, if it is not interesting or significant, and if it will not affect your readers' or listeners' lives, then it is not news. Do not publish it or broadcast it as news.

http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Manuals%20Volume%201/volume1_01.htm

[SICHONSTEVE]

Hey guys, you haven't been in touch lately and I'm fretting as to whether you have all simultaneously run out of 'red' computer ink.

Anyway, just to let you know that Jonathon Tattersall was out in the last over for 95 and they posted 230.

[Thai at Heart]

It is certainly true that the international media have been continually at odds with grasping the domestic political situation in Thailand. In brief, it falls short of the mark because it takes a highly complex situation and tries to fit it into a 30 second sound-bite. It can't be done, of course. So the simplification of it becomes necessary to make it fit. One way is to frame it as a clear polarity that everyone can fully grasp without the impediments and inconvenience of gray areas or inconsistencies. Then it is further " sanitized " for Western consumption, tying to make it fit comfortably with Western assumptions that conform more easily with their own experience. It's ironic, because at a time when we would naturally go to Western media for some sense of direction, they are actually - by and large - behind domestic coverage and understanding of the situation. And since recently Thailand was scored two placements behind Afghanistan in terms of global press freedom, that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

Consumers of news in Peoria, Illinois, USA, don't give a rat's arse about villiage poo yai in Thailand or about Thaksin, or about "Mark", and neither do Western news consumers care about a rice warehouse fire in Thailand, or any such thing so remote from their everyday lives in every meaning of the word.This is true also of news consumers in Derby, UK, Wollongong, Australia.

Pedestrian critics of media around here fail to be rooted or grounded in the reality of what constitutes news as it is presented at a school of journalism and by editors at professional, respected news organizations of the native English world.

The Standard News Manual referenced below, with its link that bears some reasonably respectable glance by TVF carping would-be media critics, presents the central question journalists by education, training, practice, are required to observe in their reporting, which is: How does this affect my readers', listeners' or viewers lives?

In Peoria, Derby, Wollongong, hardly if at all - very much most likely, not at all.

Anyone who wants to assume the Quixotic undertaking of changing the fundamental precepts of native English language journalsim and of its practice, please charge ahead because it will take you away from here for the rest of your natural life.

To decide what you should report, you must sort out news from non-news. To do this, ask yourself the following questions about anything you think may be news:

• Is it new?
• Is it unusual?
• Is it interesting?
• Is it significant?
• Is it about people?

To decide how to report it, ask yourself the following question:

• How does this affect my readers', listeners' or viewers lives?

If it is not new or unusual, if it is not interesting or significant, and if it will not affect your readers' or listeners' lives, then it is not news. Do not publish it or broadcast it as news.

http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Manuals%20Volume%201/volume1_01.htm

If the international media really dug in the conclusion would probably that thailand is riven with class conflict, endemically corrupt and all the people incredibly superstitious, malleable and manipulable.

Does Thailand really want this opinion thrown around the world?

[Emptyset]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

He is not linked to them - he clearly wants the same result (remove the Shinawatras) but so do I and a lot of other people!!!

What's more he doesn't agree with many of the things that they carried out (disruption of the elections, taking over government buildings etc:). Unlike this government he is an honourable man that did his best for Thailand and doesn't tell lies!!

Needless to say I agree with Jayboy. I'm astonished that others can't see this. Anyway, most who support AV, support the PDRC too, so why is it important to you that he's not involved?

Abhisit isn't linked to the PDRC in the same way that Thakskin 'didn't know' the red shirts when asked about them in a newspaper interview back in 2010. Obviously, for the sake of his international credibility, he wants to be able to distance himself from a movement which uses force to block elections and there are no doubt disagreements over strategy (just as there are disagreements within PT) - but there can be little doubt that the PDRC has the support of the Democrats. This is understood by PDRC supporters. To maintain an appearance of division between the street side and the parliamentary side is a deliberate part of the strategy, but they're all at the protests regularly with Suthep.

Also note Abhisit's statements have been deliberately ambiguous. He makes it look like he'd appear interested in competing in a democratic election, but sets conditions which aren't that much different to what the PDRC has in mind. Conditions he knows the govt can't meet, e.g. 'reform before election', election carried out by 'neutral body' (whatever that means), etc.

[Emptyset]

The BBC has to be "impartial" under the terms of its charter. The reports I've seen have done their best to describe both points of view. Like it or not, that includes the views of those who support the present government and were in favour of an election.

Just wanted to chime in that regardless of what is in their charter the BBC by their own admission have been guilty of not only being far from impartial but also selective editing (Miners Strike, Winter of Discontent) and more recently the conflict in Georgia and Earthquake in Haiti.

As far Johnathan Head goes he really had to overreach himself when after conceding that Thaksin used his premiership to enrich his family and companies he basically shrugged it off by claiming it had to be seen in the context of some 1921 leader who was even more corrupt.

But then seeing as Ive just read an Apology from the present director general of the BBC for buying Documentaries "from a company that was working to promote foreign governments." its a moot point.

I think some people would only be satisified with Jonathan Head's coverage if he just gave over three minutes of air time to Suthep. Maybe he should just stand next to the kamnan cheerfully blowing a whistle and giving the thumbs up to show his support for the PDRC crusade. Michael Yon might be more to your tastes if you like that sort of thing.

[brewsterbudgen]

The BBC has to be "impartial" under the terms of its charter. The reports I've seen have done their best to describe both points of view. Like it or not, that includes the views of those who support the present government and were in favour of an election.

Just wanted to chime in that regardless of what is in their charter the BBC by their own admission have been guilty of not only being far from impartial but also selective editing (Miners Strike, Winter of Discontent) and more recently the conflict in Georgia and Earthquake in Haiti.

As far Johnathan Head goes he really had to overreach himself when after conceding that Thaksin used his premiership to enrich his family and companies he basically shrugged it off by claiming it had to be seen in the context of some 1921 leader who was even more corrupt.

But then seeing as Ive just read an Apology from the present director general of the BBC for buying Documentaries "from a company that was working to promote foreign governments." its a moot point.

I think some people would only be satisified with Jonathan Head's coverage if he just gave over three minutes of air time to Suthep. Maybe he should just stand next to the kamnan cheerfully blowing a whistle and giving the thumbs up to show his support for the PDRC crusade. Michael Yon might be more to your tastes if you like that sort of thing.

They'd probably still find a reason to accuse him of bias! Not blowing his whistle hard enough? Wearing red underpants?

[Emptyset]

I used to think that Jonathan Head's pro-Thaksinite reports on the BBC were rock bottoms as far as red foreign journalists were concerned but this one from Thomas Fuller in the NYT now takes the biscuit http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/world/asia/thai-police-clear-areas-of-protesters-as-their-numbers-ebb.html?_r=0

He suggests it is unfair for the NACC to probe Yingluck promptly over the rice pledging scandal which is perhaps the most egregious fraud ever perpetrated on 1.4 million poverty stricken farmers with catastrophic results. He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests.

I hope that being able to obtain a Thai visa and work permit are not important for his career. Perhaps he can find employment with Robert Amsterdam, if he can no longer travel to Thailand.

"He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests." Huh - are you saying the foreign press shouldn't report what the Thai media has claimed, that Sontiyan is an advisor to the CPB? So you're advocating self-censorship for the foreign press despite the fact that even the Thai media has reported it? Strange comment, but if you don't believe in a free press, understandable I suppose.

As for the rice pledging scheme - perhaps it'd be better to separate out the issues of corruption and non-payment because they're not really related. The corruption was certainly perpetrated on the Thai taxpayer, as is all other corruption. But the farmers benefited from the scheme when they were getting paid. So the fraud wasn't 'perpetrated on' them. They were getting more money, perhaps not as much as they should have due to the corruption issue, but more money nevertheless. The non-payment is a seperate issue which relates to incompetence rather than corruption. Incompetence because they should've expanded the scheme and made sure they borrowed the money before house was dissolved. Of course, now their hands are tied. They've tried to exercise the few options they have to get hold of the money and have only managed to come up with a fraction so far. It can't be fully resolved until parliamentary quorum is achieved.

[Publicus]

The BBC has to be "impartial" under the terms of its charter. The reports I've seen have done their best to describe both points of view. Like it or not, that includes the views of those who support the present government and were in favour of an election.

Just wanted to chime in that regardless of what is in their charter the BBC by their own admission have been guilty of not only being far from impartial but also selective editing (Miners Strike, Winter of Discontent) and more recently the conflict in Georgia and Earthquake in Haiti.

As far Johnathan Head goes he really had to overreach himself when after conceding that Thaksin used his premiership to enrich his family and companies he basically shrugged it off by claiming it had to be seen in the context of some 1921 leader who was even more corrupt.

But then seeing as Ive just read an Apology from the present director general of the BBC for buying Documentaries "from a company that was working to promote foreign governments." its a moot point.

I think some people would only be satisified with Jonathan Head's coverage if he just gave over three minutes of air time to Suthep. Maybe he should just stand next to the kamnan cheerfully blowing a whistle and giving the thumbs up to show his support for the PDRC crusade. Michael Yon might be more to your tastes if you like that sort of thing.

BBC editors and BBC audience would either lose all confidence in Mr Head for presenting a ranting lunatic from a bizarre foreign land to them, or would thank him for clarifying in the absolute that Thailand is a mangere' of turkey and buffalo.

I'd think Jonathan doesn't have the airtime to take the risk on which it might be, so he continues to report it viably, credibly, professionally, same as the preponderance of Western journalists and civil society analysts who have the priviledge of coming to the former LOS to witness the Thaitanic underway..

[Emptyset]

No!!! he shouldn't be supporting Suthep he should be reporting the news honestly and after having done a bit of 'deep' research into what the true facts are.

I get fed up with this 'democratically elected' prattle, they espouse, they are also supposed to be democratically accountable and not irresponsible (to the extreme), as they have been for their entire tenure!!

If he found out what the situation is really like he wouldn't be casting Yingluck as a fairy godmother and the Democrats as demons not interested in democracy!!

But it's factually correct to say that the government in Thailand is democratically elected. I agree that they've been a bad government, as corrupt and unaccountable as any other Thai government, and had the election been competitive, they may well have been voted out, especially after their mishandling of the rice policy.

Whatever way you want to paint it, overthrowing an elected government and replacing it with a non-elected group is not democracy. I wouldn't expect the BBC or any other rational, unbiased media organisation to say otherwise.

As soon as a government starts abusing it's powers it loses it's legitimacy and the people have a right to protest against them as long as it is done by peaceful means.

The reason the BBC doesn't report it as it is, is because they don't understand the situation (or in Head's case doesn't want to with his pal Thaksin) and haven't researched it well enough.

Why didn't the violent overthrow of Morsi in Egypt get reported the same way, as he was elected democratically after all. Why the double standards in the case of Thailand?

But that's where I think you're wrong. I've not seen a single BBC report that hasn't said that the protestors don't have the right to peacefully protest. But protesting and overthrowing an elected government are not the same thing! As for Egypt, the overthrow of Morsi was heavily criticised (and still is) in many BBC reports. The BBC is certainly not pro the military in Egypt and has been criticised by many for being pro-Muslim Brotherhood! Ukraine is a more interesting parallel, with the protestors there demanding elections but the current government being elected!

Impartiality always frustrates the partial. Jonathan Head may sympathise with the people of North East Thailand, but I very much doubt he's a friend of Thaksin. I don't know him personally though.

Yes, I don't get the Egypt comparison because plenty of the foreign press (including BBC) has been critical of the coup and subsequent crackdown on the MB. Even in the Ukraine it's presented as somewhat complicated, with the far right element amongst the anti-govt protesters etc. The parallel is that both sides of the divide are accusing the western media of being biased towards one side or the other. Which probably means they're not doing too bad a job of it overall.

I think people get irritated at JH because he points out that the government still has a huge amount of support. Some people would prefer to forget that support exists or argue it away as though the opinion of government supporters no longer matters. If the situation was the US in 2004, and the BBC argued that Bush had lost legitimacy because of his lies over the Iraq war (not to mention the dodgy election with only 50% turnout etc) and supported those calling for his overthrow and replacement with an unelected body, people would find it outrageous. I know I would and I definitely didn't support Bush.

The typical argument is that Thailand is a special case etc. It isn't. Plenty of other democracies have been themselves in similar situations on the long road to stability. If they became a stable democracy, it's because they stuck firmly to the idea that democracy is the only answer. If there is constant intervention in the democratic process by unelected elite, the military etc, then how are people to learn? I'm all for protest, but it's protest that should lead to a greater outcome for democracy, not less.

And anyway, if you want to argue on the basis of Thai exceptionalism, someone could equally argue that vote buying is part of Thai culture, so who are you to condemn it? If most Thais are happy with it, what right do we have as foreigners to criticize it? The people making this argument are necessarily pretty selective over what they consider Thai culture. Maybe they've failed to understand vote buying a local would in a Thai village, which is in many cases, more like customary gift giving rather than the contract to vote in a certain way that they believe it to be. Though the money may not determine the vote, the gift is still expected as a sign of a generous heart. That's another way to look at it as suggested by some academics who've studied the practice in detail and tried to see it as locals do rather than making assumptions - although I'm sure in some places it's more determinate of the vote than in others.

After all - what is Thai culture? Is it some ossified set of ideals based upon the worldview of the Thai elite or is it what most Thais actually do?

[rixalex]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

With all the attempted washing you yourself have done over the years with regards Thaksin and the red shirts, and their sordid, inextricable links, guessing you must be all out of washing powder anyway.

[Thai at Heart]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

He is not linked to them - he clearly wants the same result (remove the Shinawatras) but so do I and a lot of other people!!!

What's more he doesn't agree with many of the things that they carried out (disruption of the elections, taking over government buildings etc:). Unlike this government he is an honourable man that did his best for Thailand and doesn't tell lies!!

Needless to say I agree with Jayboy. I'm astonished that others can't see this. Anyway, most who support AV, support the PDRC too, so why is it important to you that he's not involved?

Abhisit isn't linked to the PDRC in the same way that Thakskin 'didn't know' the red shirts when asked about them in a newspaper interview back in 2010. Obviously, for the sake of his international credibility, he wants to be able to distance himself from a movement which uses force to block elections and there are no doubt disagreements over strategy (just as there are disagreements within PT) - but there can be little doubt that the PDRC has the support of the Democrats. This is understood by PDRC supporters. To maintain an appearance of division between the street side and the parliamentary side is a deliberate part of the strategy, but they're all at the protests regularly with Suthep.

Also note Abhisit's statements have been deliberately ambiguous. He makes it look like he'd appear interested in competing in a democratic election, but sets conditions which aren't that much different to what the PDRC has in mind. Conditions he knows the govt can't meet, e.g. 'reform before election', election carried out by 'neutral body' (whatever that means), etc.

No one gives a damn what abhisit has to say about anything anymore. In fact, the main reason why they darent have an election is that he is is so utterly irrelevant now, that he will never get elected again.

The poor hate him, the real rich hate him. The 10% middle class think he's pointless.

He is a completely useless politician and I think he will never be allowed to lead the dems into another election. He will be this bloke quoted occasionally in the Nation.

"Respected statesman Abhisit today mentioned

....."

[Thai at Heart]

I used to think that Jonathan Head's pro-Thaksinite reports on the BBC were rock bottoms as far as red foreign journalists were concerned but this one from Thomas Fuller in the NYT now takes the biscuit http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/15/world/asia/thai-police-clear-areas-of-protesters-as-their-numbers-ebb.html?_r=0

He suggests it is unfair for the NACC to probe Yingluck promptly over the rice pledging scandal which is perhaps the most egregious fraud ever perpetrated on 1.4 million poverty stricken farmers with catastrophic results. He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests.

I hope that being able to obtain a Thai visa and work permit are not important for his career. Perhaps he can find employment with Robert Amsterdam, if he can no longer travel to Thailand.

"He even stoops so low as to imply that the Crown Property Bureau is supporting the protests." Huh - are you saying the foreign press shouldn't report what the Thai media has claimed, that Sontiyan is an advisor to the CPB? So you're advocating self-censorship for the foreign press despite the fact that even the Thai media has reported it? Strange comment, but if you don't believe in a free press, understandable I suppose.

As for the rice pledging scheme - perhaps it'd be better to separate out the issues of corruption and non-payment because they're not really related. The corruption was certainly perpetrated on the Thai taxpayer, as is all other corruption. But the farmers benefited from the scheme when they were getting paid. So the fraud wasn't 'perpetrated on' them. They were getting more money, perhaps not as much as they should have due to the corruption issue, but more money nevertheless. The non-payment is a seperate issue which relates to incompetence rather than corruption. Incompetence because they should've expanded the scheme and made sure they borrowed the money before house was dissolved. Of course, now their hands are tied. They've tried to exercise the few options they have to get hold of the money and have only managed to come up with a fraction so far. It can't be fully resolved until parliamentary quorum is achieved.

Oh now now.

Stop being so calm and reasoned. We all know that Thaksin is the devil incarnate and that there is absolutely no ulterior motive within Sutheps bunch.

Just the best most principled people saving the country for nothing, giving themselves freely.

[englishoak]

The fact of the matter is that foreign media correspondents continue to place the focus solely on what they see as the 'undemocratic' issue of the opposition not wanting to partake in elections until reforms had been put in place to ensure that such elections were free and fair. As a result, they have failed to outline the numerous infractions of this government to the outside world.

Many overseas observers are well aware that Thaksin is a convicted person who cannot return to Thailand, but they are fed additional suggestions by the foreign media that the convictions against him "may have been" politically motivated, which is pure nonsense. He was convicted fairly and squarely for fraudulent actions whilst in office.

They also paint a picture of his sister being a good prime minister, which of course, is far from true. I think they should place emphasis on the fact that she has neither the background nor the training for the role, and that in fact, Thailand is currently being run by the convict in exile. Greater emphasis should also be placed on the missing billions during the PTP tenure, focusing particularly on the NACC probe, which is likely to see Yingluck impeached, and probably, imprisoned.

Jonathan Head is an embarrassment to us, as he can see no further then the nose on his face. If the outside world were provided with the full details of the rape and pillage of this country during the PTP tenure, then perhaps there would be less sympathy for Yingluck, a little more sympathy for the impact that it has had on the grass roots people of Thailand, and perhaps a little more than a suggestion for more women in politics from the UN...!!

Everything here is politically motivated and manipulated George, be it real corruption or an anti democratic attempt to install a peoples council. its really not complicated other than the fact there are factions and people that cannot be discussed by law here to fill in the details.

It really is simply the rich few and unelectable just demanding they control the majority because they cant do it democratically. Nothing complicated about the basics of it.

No need for sympathy because the system allowed it to happen due to the many coups and instability of governments over the past 80 years. That people here think the rest of the world dosnt get it just goes to show the effect of draconian laws here on the psyche. They get it pretty well at the basic level everyone else isnt wrong m8 its the ones here with blinkers on turned inwards that dont get it... the rest of the world does.

Tosh, as usual.

I cannot find one investigative journalist who had really probed the actions of a government forced to dissolve parliament. All fluffy powdery sugar coated stuff. AFP, with its repeated 'adored' Thaksin phrase, the lightweight Head with his sympathetic BBC reports. The interviews YL gave were laughable. Only Veronica Pedrozza pushed, and soon realized she wasn't going to get any intelligent or coherent responses.

Thaksin's PR machine, coupled with left leaning foreign journalists presents a very slanted view. What is really sad, is these so called journalists still see PTP as the 'people's party" and Thaksin as some kind of savior, completely ignoring the plight of the farmers and the massive underlying corruption.

The rest of the world, by and large, couldn't give a toss. And the lack of real reporting ain't gonna change that.

When YL and co get probed and maybe charged with corruption, how many foreign journalists will really follow this, dig a bit like real journalists? And how many will simply try and dismiss all the charges as politically motivated just like her brothers fraud conviction?

Hehe, sure sure funny to keep seeing the usual preachers out blowing the willy whistles as usual. Why dont you mention bluesky the Nation,or BP or all the other Thai media bought and controlled by the yellow side as well with just as much fervour and propaganda ? forget about that little bit huh ?

Plenty of examples of bad media here far more slanted and worse than foreign press what are you on about, There is no freedom of speech here even on this forum, Duh !

Why dont you go do some reporting and digging if you dont like the options out there and see how easy it is or how far you get ?.

Real reporting cant exist in Thailand and thats down to the gagging and restrictions on freedom of the press and les majeste dreamt up by the army to suppress discussion and transparency and happily used by whatever gov in power for the same reason, currently at its worst since the last coup and enforced with gusto by orders of the army and its all a big scam intended to protect its own powerbase and cares nothing for the people, what a surprise....

Agreed most of the world including us couldnt care less or give a toss as you put it about yingluck or PTP being in or out,or the Dems. That is because we know both sides are corrupt to the core as is the whole country along with its systems. Most here care only that the fighting is done in the voting arena where it should be and democratically so ..........without the violence and childish drama of stamping the feet that always goes off every few years.. That route is no longer acceptable to anyone but a few.

This is why along with most of the world, most here vehemently oppose a Suthep style solution and hand picked council certainly we arnt red nor yellow, we just have enough sense to know there is no magic bullet and an undemocratic power play when we see one.

Who do you think has the real power in this country and has done for 80 odd years ?... ill give you a clue it pretends its not political but permeates all society, its an alliance between those that believe they have been born with the right and those that have the might. Sure its all political, you wouldnt have draconian gagging laws still imposed on the people if politics were limited just to government.

It certainly permeates all parts of society and is political, its just been challenged by a new kind of power, the past decade or so thats why its bleating so loudly, popular opinion can be a bitch.

The modern world has no use or interest whatsoever in a feudal or repressive society like Thailand has been or some wish it to return to being. The international community arnt interested in wet nursing failed states or excuses from groups in one that arnt electable or prepared to evolve and do it at the polls. regardless of how rich they are, they will be criticised as they should be. The world press also dosnt have restrictions of freedom of speech unlike here.

It will simply paint it like it is and let the people decide, hurrah for that

Edited February 16, 2014 by englishoak

[jayboy]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

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With all the attempted washing you yourself have done over the years with regards Thaksin and the red shirts, and their sordid, inextricable links, guessing you must be all out of washing powder anyway.

So, out of any credible arguments or indeed any interesting points at all you resort to puerile vapourings.Please don't confuse vulgar abuse with witty invective.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[tilac2]

"Hurrah for that" indeed English O.

Yes there's a new power around now. And feudal society, I reckon, must be on its way out - but it could take some time!

Although the feudalists can try mass repression again, as in the 1970s, I can't see how that could work in Isaan any longer. The feudalists' problem is that they didn't read history. (Tuchman's 'The March of Folly' would be a first choice!) They didn't see that attacking the people's choice is just plain counter-productive. They removed Thaksin in 2006 and then removed his successors through legal shenanigans, and that made the people angry.

But that provocation can't go on for ever. Sooner or later they will have to come into the 21st century and realise that "1 man 1 vote" is the only system the people will accept. The process has happened in every country that aspires to be 'modern', and it must surely happen even in the laughing-stock country of Thailand with its 18 coups.

Also, sooner or later I am convinced that the Thai people will breathe the air of freedom and cast off the subservient attitudes that the elite Thais and some farangs love so much: the grovel, grovel, bow down before My-Lord-and-master thing.

Thais have got to be allowed to make their own decisions and their own mistakes, and that includes voting for governments which aren't that great -- and so, maybe, get voted out next time. There are some Thais, especially younger Thais, who are perfectly ready for this responsibility (e.g. columnist Voronai in the 'Bangkok Post'). The older ones, well... I don't know.

I'd think that a first step in this process of de-feudalisation would be for Suthep to be sent home. He is a world-class embarrassment.

[Thai at Heart]

"Hurrah for that" indeed English O.

Yes there's a new power around now. And feudal society, I reckon, must be on its way out - but it could take some time!

Although the feudalists can try mass repression again, as in the 1970s, I can't see how that could work in Isaan any longer. The feudalists' problem is that they didn't read history. (Tuchman's 'The March of Folly' would be a first choice!) They didn't see that attacking the people's choice is just plain counter-productive. They removed Thaksin in 2006 and then removed his successors through legal shenanigans, and that made the people angry.

But that provocation can't go on for ever. Sooner or later they will have to come into the 21st century and realise that "1 man 1 vote" is the only system the people will accept. The process has happened in every country that aspires to be 'modern', and it must surely happen even in the laughing-stock country of Thailand with its 18 coups.

Also, sooner or later I am convinced that the Thai people will breathe the air of freedom and cast off the subservient attitudes that the elite Thais and some farangs love so much: the grovel, grovel, bow down before My-Lord-and-master thing.

Thais have got to be allowed to make their own decisions and their own mistakes, and that includes voting for governments which aren't that great -- and so, maybe, get voted out next time. There are some Thais, especially younger Thais, who are perfectly ready for this responsibility (e.g. columnist Voronai in the 'Bangkok Post'). The older ones, well... I don't know.

I'd think that a first step in this process of de-feudalisation would be for Suthep to be sent home. He is a world-class embarrassment.

It worked ok as long as isaan was completely dirt poor. But it couldn't be that it all stayed poverty stricken forever. Everyone wants to get a bit better off and why it should be that bangkok gets so.much more.money than the rest of the country is too much.

The wealth should be spread.

[englishoak]

Indeed Tilac 2 the genie is firmly out of the bottle and cannot be forced back in.

I agree In the end the will of the people and demands for a better life shall push the changes through, it may take a while still, a generation or so but as the old elite order dies out and fades into history the young and energetic will impose their mark and demands for more freedom will become realised, with that will come more responsibility and i hope a demand for a more fair, transparent and accountable working society.

Most of all I look forward to the armed forces being made to serve as they should and not control as they have been this past century or so.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Indeed Tilac 2 the genie is firmly out of the bottle and cannot be forced back in.

I agree In the end the will of the people and demands for a better life shall push the changes through, it may take a while still, a generation or so but as the old elite order dies out and fades into history the young and energetic will impose their mark and demands for more freedom will become realised, with that will come more responsibility and i hope a demand for a more fair, transparent and accountable working society.

Most of all I look forward to the armed forces being made to serve as they should and not control as they have been this past century or so.

They should start with forming a real royal Thai police force by tossing out Thaksin's relations and buddies and get some people in there who are able to carry out policing, are unbiased and not looking for favours and money from Thaksin.

Promotions should be made on MERIT and not nepotism and favours to those who kow tow the line with their superiors.

Then they should sort out the army and make them accountable to the people (a much easier task mind you as that is pretty much the status quo at the moment) but they should become truly impartial just like the police and not hold favouritism towards any faction of the people. Once this has happened they should look at the judiciary and the senate and strengthen them both so that such misdemeanours as corruption and fraud are more difficult to accomplish and ensure that the necessary checks and balances are there to police this. The so called elite should be prevented from buying their way out of crimes committed and everyone must do the time that fits the crime (no matter who or how rich they are).

Lets make everything a level playing field and stop these populist policies that are both expensive and damaging to the Thai people and it's reputation!!

Edited February 17, 2014 by SICHONSTEVE

[maxme]

Indeed Tilac 2 the genie is firmly out of the bottle and cannot be forced back in.

I agree In the end the will of the people and demands for a better life shall push the changes through, it may take a while still, a generation or so but as the old elite order dies out and fades into history the young and energetic will impose their mark and demands for more freedom will become realised, with that will come more responsibility and i hope a demand for a more fair, transparent and accountable working society.

Most of all I look forward to the armed forces being made to serve as they should and not control as they have been this past century or so.

They should start with forming a real royal Thai police force by tossing out Thaksin's relations and buddies and get some people in there who are able to carry out policing, are unbiased and not looking for favours and money from Thaksin.

Then they should sort out the army and make them accountable to the people (a much easier task mind you as that is pretty much the status quo at the moment) but they should become truly impartial just like the police and not hold favouritism towards any faction of the people. Once this has happened they should look at the judiciary and the senate and strengthen them both so that such misdemeanours as corruption and fraud are more difficult to accomplish and ensure that the necessary checks and balances are there to police this. The so called elite should be prevented from buying their way out of crimes committed and everyone must do the time that fits the crime (no matter who or how rich they are).

Lets make everything a level playing field and stop these populist policies that are both expensive and damaging to the Thai people and it's reputation!!

You do realize that Suthep and Abhisit belong to that group? Replacing RTP members won't solve the problem as the average Thai not to mention some of the upper class lack the understanding of the fundamental principles needed in organization management.

Corruption is rife in Thailand and It's not only the tippy top that is rotten, it's all the way down to the roots. From the top politicans down to the tambon. Whether it's Thaksin, Suthep or Abhisit, they are all part of that system.

It's like the educational system here where teachers who boast about their masters have no knowledge on the subject they are teaching. English teachers who can't speak English let along write in it. Teaching the students the same mistakes their mentors/teachers did.

The way you propose won't solve the problem, only transfer it to a later point.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited February 17, 2014 by maxme

[SICHONSTEVE]

Indeed Tilac 2 the genie is firmly out of the bottle and cannot be forced back in.

I agree In the end the will of the people and demands for a better life shall push the changes through, it may take a while still, a generation or so but as the old elite order dies out and fades into history the young and energetic will impose their mark and demands for more freedom will become realised, with that will come more responsibility and i hope a demand for a more fair, transparent and accountable working society.

Most of all I look forward to the armed forces being made to serve as they should and not control as they have been this past century or so.

They should start with forming a real royal Thai police force by tossing out Thaksin's relations and buddies and get some people in there who are able to carry out policing, are unbiased and not looking for favours and money from Thaksin.

Then they should sort out the army and make them accountable to the people (a much easier task mind you as that is pretty much the status quo at the moment) but they should become truly impartial just like the police and not hold favouritism towards any faction of the people. Once this has happened they should look at the judiciary and the senate and strengthen them both so that such misdemeanours as corruption and fraud are more difficult to accomplish and ensure that the necessary checks and balances are there to police this. The so called elite should be prevented from buying their way out of crimes committed and everyone must do the time that fits the crime (no matter who or how rich they are).

Lets make everything a level playing field and stop these populist policies that are both expensive and damaging to the Thai people and it's reputation!!

You do realize that Suthep and Abhisit belong to that group? Replacing RTP members won't solve the problem as the average Thai not to mention some of the upper class lack the understanding of the fundamental principles needed in organization management.

Corruption is rife in Thailand and It's not only the tippy top that is rotten, it's all the way down to the roots. From the top politicans down to the tambon. Whether it's Thaksin, Suthep or Abhisit, they are all part of that system.

It's like the educational system here where teachers who boast about their masters have no knowledge on the subject they are teaching. English teachers who can't speak English let along write in it. Teaching the students the same mistakes their mentors/teachers did.

The way you propose won't solve the problem, only transfer it to a later point.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

This applies to every Thai national no matter who they are. Replacing the Thai police force with able people with no affiliation to Thaksin solves a lot of the problems - take out the biased top police who have inherited/been granted their positions by Thaksin and put REAL police in their place.

Thaksin is 100% corrupt, Suthep, I doubt is clean (but he has never been charged or convicted of corruption) and Abhisit is as clean in this respect as virgin snow so you should leave him out of the equation.

[maxme]

Indeed Tilac 2 the genie is firmly out of the bottle and cannot be forced back in.

I agree In the end the will of the people and demands for a better life shall push the changes through, it may take a while still, a generation or so but as the old elite order dies out and fades into history the young and energetic will impose their mark and demands for more freedom will become realised, with that will come more responsibility and i hope a demand for a more fair, transparent and accountable working society.

Most of all I look forward to the armed forces being made to serve as they should and not control as they have been this past century or so.

They should start with forming a real royal Thai police force by tossing out Thaksin's relations and buddies and get some people in there who are able to carry out policing, are unbiased and not looking for favours and money from Thaksin.

Then they should sort out the army and make them accountable to the people (a much easier task mind you as that is pretty much the status quo at the moment) but they should become truly impartial just like the police and not hold favouritism towards any faction of the people. Once this has happened they should look at the judiciary and the senate and strengthen them both so that such misdemeanours as corruption and fraud are more difficult to accomplish and ensure that the necessary checks and balances are there to police this. The so called elite should be prevented from buying their way out of crimes committed and everyone must do the time that fits the crime (no matter who or how rich they are).

Lets make everything a level playing field and stop these populist policies that are both expensive and damaging to the Thai people and it's reputation!!

You do realize that Suthep and Abhisit belong to that group? Replacing RTP members won't solve the problem as the average Thai not to mention some of the upper class lack the understanding of the fundamental principles needed in organization management.

Corruption is rife in Thailand and It's not only the tippy top that is rotten, it's all the way down to the roots. From the top politicans down to the tambon. Whether it's Thaksin, Suthep or Abhisit, they are all part of that system.

It's like the educational system here where teachers who boast about their masters have no knowledge on the subject they are teaching. English teachers who can't speak English let along write in it. Teaching the students the same mistakes their mentors/teachers did.

The way you propose won't solve the problem, only transfer it to a later point.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

This applies to every Thai national no matter who they are. Replacing the Thai police force with able people with no affiliation to Thaksin solves a lot of the problems - take out the biased top police who have inherited/been granted their positions by Thaksin and put REAL police in their place.

Thaksin is 100% corrupt, Suthep, I doubt is clean (but he has never been charged or convicted of corruption)

and Abhisit is as clean in this respect as virgin snow so you should leave him out of the equation.

Sorry to shatter your delusions but nobody is clean. He was in a debate with a famous professor from Chulalongkorn who had seeked refuge on England as he was facing arrest for protesting against Abhisit and Suthep. Notefully this professor also protested against Thaksin during the war on drugs. The former PM mentioned that he was facing several charges even lese majeste. Now I agree he WAS among the better lot but after what he did when the amnesty bill was dropped he lost the respect among many voters and foreigners including me. His actions showed that was the instrumental part of his and Sutep's sponsor's plan. If he hadn't taken that route, things might just have turned out differently.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited February 17, 2014 by maxme

[rixalex]

No that won't wash.Abhisit may have pretended to distance himself with the aim of having his cake and eating it.But the reality is that the Democrat leadership is inextricably linked to Suthep 's mob and thus morally compromised.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

With all the attempted washing you yourself have done over the years with regards Thaksin and the red shirts, and their sordid, inextricable links, guessing you must be all out of washing powder anyway.

So, out of any credible arguments or indeed any interesting points at all you resort to puerile vapourings.Please don't confuse vulgar abuse with witty invective.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

My point was clear and all that your crabby response to it has done is expose the nerve that it struck.

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[SICHONSTEVE]

Shatter my illusions???

What has a debate with a professor got to do with things? Is that all the dirt you could dig out on him? I think it rather proves my point as to just how clean he is - unless Wikipedia has failed in it's research on him!!

He should be publicly flogged for having the audacity to argue with a professor in a debate. That is far more serious than anything Thaksin did after all he only raped pillaged and destroyed the whole fabric of Thailand to make himself mega-rich with the nations hard earned money.

What he has done with the farmers is disgraceful - do you think that he is sorry, I'll let you decide!!

He wants the farmers to be paid to preserve PTP's vote, not to help these desperate farmers survive.

Just listen to Yingluck "oh we do care about you so please don't go to Bangkok and protest against the government, we are trying to get your money so please don't abandon us". Sickening if you ask me!!!

Send her down for 'crimes against humanity, she is a poor excuse for a human being'!!

[maxme]

Shatter my illusions???

What has a debate with a professor got to do with things? Is that all the dirt you could dig out on him? I think it rather proves my point as to just how clean he is - unless Wikipedia has failed in it's research on him!!

He should be publicly flogged for having the audacity to argue with a professor in a debate. That is far more serious than anything Thaksin did after all he only raped pillaged and destroyed the whole fabric of Thailand to make himself mega-rich with the nations hard earned money.

What he has done with the farmers is disgraceful - do you think that he is sorry, I'll let you decide!!

He wants the farmers to be paid to preserve PTP's vote, not to help these desperate farmers survive.

Just listen to Yingluck "oh we do care about you so please don't go to Bangkok and protest against the government, we are trying to get your money so please don't abandon us". Sickening if you ask me!!!

Send her down for 'crimes against humanity, she is a poor excuse for a human being'!!

Well it's on youtube if you bother to search. I didn't mention the murder charges he and Suthep faced. Something you forget to mention everytime in your Thaksin rant. The debate got more attention when the professor said that during Thaksin's reign, people were allowed to protest but that changed when the former democrats got in charge. The crackdown was condemned even by foreign media. I know what it's like living in the south, but I never let the people there warp my reality as they have done with you. Both sides need to be heard like it or not. Your way is to eradicate the voice of the poor, the majority of the Thai people. In Suthep's eyes they are all kwai and this comes from a man who doesn't live up to his own standards but love to force his hypocracy onto everyone else.

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[Publicus]

This page should be framed, what with fahlang from all directions hitting their articulate stride by actually discussing issues, underlying reasons, and being realistic, among other intelligent and level headed posts. There remains of course a pot shot post here and there but on the whole certain notable fahlang of varied colors have taken to waxing eloquent, so I hope other posters will join me in taking notice and getting up to the new speed at TVF.

Now if only someone out there would listen

There's comfort in the unwavering fact that to Western journalists democracy is not downwardly negotiable and that choking voters puts the perps outside the margins. As to democracy in Thailand, even as it is,,money can't buy everything when there are people who actually want to vote, to include those who voted no vote.

The diversity of posters here have a lot to choose from of what each likes based on those who did brave the elements to vote.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Publicus