Why it isn't a class struggle: Thai opinion

[3NUMBAS]

0h really the BKK elites have denounced their fellow citizens as too dumb to vote and they havent a clue so shouldn't be allowed to vote ,thus enabling the wealthy to take control and fill their pockets and keep the proletariat poor forever .they despise Thaksin for giving them 30bahts healthcare they are so mean to their fellow Thais.

no wonder they hate them so much .

[zakk9]

Yes, the leadership of both the Thaksin party and Abhisit's Democrats are rich people, these people are the 'elite'. But let's look at the VOTERS of these political parties.

Most of us do know that the bulk of the rural and urban poor DO actually cheer on the Thaksin party. Look at the voters of these parties, and we can then see what struggle this actually is.

That isn't true either. Trat, which is one of the poorer provinces, vote mainly Democrat, which was probably why they were attacked. South of Thailand, the rural areas, are not rich, but they vote Democrat. Chiang Mai is a rich province, but they vote PTP... etc.

I didn't say all of them, I said "the bulk of them".

Most of us are bored with the international media going on and on about how Isaan is the voter base of all the Thaksin parties, and how the Thaksin parties have used populist policies to encourage most of the rural and urban poor to vote for them. People can criticise the rural poor for being tricked into voting for Thaksin, that's the opinion of those critics. But we can't get away from "most of the middle-class and elite (higher income people) vote for Abhisit's Democrats, whilst most of the rural and urban poor vote for Thaksin".

Yes, let's not split hairs, but an interesting point is that much of the middle class actually are children of farmers, also from Isan, who obtained an education, found a well paid job and became part of the "establishment".

[billsmart]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Who exactly are the "elite" you refer to?

People with money? Business people? Someone else? Please clarify just "who" you think the elite is at the moment . . . and "why" you think they are elite . . . I'm very curious to know.

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

Thaksin and his supporters are wealthy and well-educated but are not what I would call "elitists" because they are not trying to replace an admittedly flawed representative democracy with one that is oligarchical in nature. Thaksin and his supporters have in fact tried to expand educational opportunities to the rural population and redistribute Thailand's immense wealth by building roads, dams, bridges, hospitals, schools and colleges, etc.., in the rural areas, and of course through various subsidy programs such as the Rice Pledging Program.

Suthep, Ahbsit and their supporters are also wealthy and well-educated, but they are trying to replace the democratically-elected government with a some kind of yet-to-be-defined appointed government.

IMO it's their philosophy that the "elite" should rule the country and not a democratically-elected government that IMO makes them "elitists".

[Tatsujin]

0h really the BKK elites have denounced their fellow citizens as too dumb to vote and they havent a clue so shouldn't be allowed to vote ,thus enabling the wealthy to take control and fill their pockets and keep the proletariat poor forever .they despise Thaksin for giving them 30bahts healthcare they are so mean to their fellow Thais.

no wonder they hate them so much .

Slight correction, the 30 baht healthcare scheme was implemented by TRT and later the Democrats in fact made it totally free (2006). PT changed it back to 30 baht last year.

The Dems must really hate the poor to give them healthcare for free.

[Tatsujin]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Who exactly are the "elite" you refer to?

People with money? Business people? Someone else? Please clarify just "who" you think the elite is at the moment . . . and "why" you think they are elite . . . I'm very curious to know.

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

Thaksin and his supporters are wealthy and well-educated but are not what I would call "elitists" because they are not trying to replace an admittedly flawed representative democracy with one that is oligarchical in nature. Thaksin and his supporters have in fact tried to expand educational opportunities to the rural population and redistribute Thailand's immense wealth by building roads, dams, bridges, hospitals, schools and colleges, etc.., in the rural areas, and of course through various subsidy programs such as the Rice Pledging Program.

Suthep, Ahbsit and their supporters are also wealthy and well-educated, but they are trying to replace the democratically-elected government with a some kind of yet-to-be-defined appointed government.

IMO it's their philosophy that the "elite" should rule the country and not a democratically-elected government that IMO makes them "elitists".

Your definition of "elite" (and who fits in that category) and mine differ somewhat.

An elite in political and sociological theory, is a small group of people who control a disproportionate amount of wealth or political power.

[zakk9]

0h really the BKK elites have denounced their fellow citizens as too dumb to vote and they havent a clue so shouldn't be allowed to vote ,thus enabling the wealthy to take control and fill their pockets and keep the proletariat poor forever .they despise Thaksin for giving them 30bahts healthcare they are so mean to their fellow Thais.

no wonder they hate them so much .

Slight correction, the 30 baht healthcare scheme was implemented by TRT and later the Democrats in fact made it totally free (2006). PT changed it back to 30 baht last year.

The Dems must really hate the poor to give them healthcare for free.

The reason to change it to free was totally pragmatic: They lose money collecting the 30 baht. The reason why PTP changed it back was probably only that it was a Democrat idea.

[zakk9]

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

Thaksin and his supporters are wealthy and well-educated but are not what I would call "elitists" because they are not trying to replace an admittedly flawed representative democracy with one that is oligarchical in nature. Thaksin and his supporters have in fact tried to expand educational opportunities to the rural population and redistribute Thailand's immense wealth by building roads, dams, bridges, hospitals, schools and colleges, etc.., in the rural areas, and of course through various subsidy programs such as the Rice Pledging Program.

Suthep, Ahbsit and their supporters are also wealthy and well-educated, but they are trying to replace the democratically-elected government with a some kind of yet-to-be-defined appointed government.

IMO it's their philosophy that the "elite" should rule the country and not a democratically-elected government that IMO makes them "elitists".

And the Democrats and other political parties didn't build roads, dams, hospitals, schools, colleges etc. in rural areas? Come on. This country has been through a revolution the last 50 years. Although there are things that have improved under Thaksin, many thinks have turned worse. The 30 baht is good, although flawed in many ways, but apart from that, he's been doing the same as many Thai politicians before him. If you deduct the losses from the rice scandal and a couple of other populist schemes plus the money he and his buddies have siphoned off, Thailand probably ends up with a big minus after Thaksin, rice farmers and others.

[citizen33]

0h really the BKK elites have denounced their fellow citizens as too dumb to vote and they havent a clue so shouldn't be allowed to vote ,thus enabling the wealthy to take control and fill their pockets and keep the proletariat poor forever .they despise Thaksin for giving them 30bahts healthcare they are so mean to their fellow Thais.

no wonder they hate them so much .

Slight correction, the 30 baht healthcare scheme was implemented by TRT and later the Democrats in fact made it totally free (2006). PT changed it back to 30 baht last year.

The Dems must really hate the poor to give them healthcare for free.

It was the post-coup civilian government who abolished the 30 baht co-payment - but I suppose you aren't far off in admitting tacitly that they were much the same as the Democrats. This old chestnut and the one about the Democrats actually being the real authors of the scheme seem to have an endless life on TVF.

[Skywalker69]

The Nation can take their "stoppage time" opinions and shove them up their a**. Its getting extremely tedious listening to their obfuscation and one sided reporting from their journalists.

Tedious, must be your surname.

[millwall_fan]

This article reads like a 15 year olds exam essay. Which The Nation are prepared to print because the views suit their right wing agenda.

Whilst this episode is being played out on a number of different levels, at least one of which we can't discuss, class is most definitely one of those levels.

One of the most significant things that Thaksin Shinawatra has done during his direct and arms length tenure on leadership, is to politicise the masses: Before Thaksin, votes really were for sale because the poor had nothing to gain from the political system apart from the few hundred baht they were paid for their votes. What Thaksin has done - and it is unlikely that this was his intention - is to make the poor realise that collectively they can wield real power.

The Ruling Elite have realised it too and to this extent a class struggle is going on.

The infantile article points out that the Shins and other politicians are very wealthy therefore their party is rich therefore ipso facto its not a class struggle, but there is a group of more radical leaders behind the Shins and Chalerm that are not -at least not yet- and they are the future leaders of the class struggle.And the increasingly politicised working class, want a share of the spoils from the worlds 25th largest economy. A period of military rule would sweep away the Shins and allow these leaders (Jutaporn, Nattawut, and others not yet known) to regroup and emerge as leaders in the next democratic elections - assuming these will ever be held. Then the rich would really squeal.

[zakk9]

This article reads like a 15 year olds exam essay. Which The Nation are prepared to print because the views suit their right wing agenda.

Whilst this episode is being played out on a number of different levels, at least one of which we can't discuss, class is most definitely one of those levels.

One of the most significant things that Thaksin Shinawatra has done during his direct and arms length tenure on leadership, is to politicise the masses: Before Thaksin, votes really were for sale because the poor had nothing to gain from the political system apart from the few hundred baht they were paid for their votes. What Thaksin has done - and it is unlikely that this was his intention - is to make the poor realise that collectively they can wield real power.

The Ruling Elite have realised it too and to this extent a class struggle is going on.

The infantile article points out that the Shins and other politicians are very wealthy therefore their party is rich therefore ipso facto its not a class struggle, but there is a group of more radical leaders behind the Shins and Chalerm that are not -at least not yet- and they are the future leaders of the class struggle.And the increasingly politicised working class, want a share of the spoils from the worlds 25th largest economy. A period of military rule would sweep away the Shins and allow these leaders (Jutaporn, Nattawut, and others not yet known) to regroup and emerge as leaders in the next democratic elections - assuming these will ever be held. Then the rich would really squeal.

After re-reading the OP, I find your response to it more infantile than the article itself.

[Davidhere]

0h really the BKK elites have denounced their fellow citizens as too dumb to vote and they havent a clue so shouldn't be allowed to vote ,thus enabling the wealthy to take control and fill their pockets and keep the proletariat poor forever .

no wonder they hate them so much .

Not really any different then when the CM elites denounced their fellow citizens as evidently too dumb to vote for them and how these voters shouldn't be allowed an equal representative portion of government expenditure programs, thus enabling these CM elites to siphon off billions to fill their own pockets and disenfranchising everyone that didn't vote for them.

No wonder so many hate them so much.

[charmonman]

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Who exactly are the "elite" you refer to?

People with money? Business people? Someone else? Please clarify just "who" you think the elite is at the moment . . . and "why" you think they are elite . . . I'm very curious to know.

I generally agree with Binjalin and I define the "elite" as the old power structure who do TEND TO BE wealthy, well-educated, industrialists, capitalists, etc..., and are concentrated in Bangkok. What PRIMARILY DEFINES them as elitists is they are ANTI-DEMOCRATIC and believe the common people of Thailand who TEND TO BE poor, uneducated, small business owners or day-workers, farmers and dispersed throughout the rural areas are incapable of governing themselves. The "elites" believe they are the only ones who should be allowed to govern. A government built on this type of philosophy is usually some form of OLIGARCHY based on some combination of their qualities (wealth, education, birth, etc...).

That is how I define "elitists"...

Thank you, great description of what you think an "elite" is.

Now explain to me how or why Thaksin and his financial supporters are not themselves "elite" ...

Thaksin and his supporters are wealthy and well-educated but are not what I would call "elitists" because they are not trying to replace an admittedly flawed representative democracy with one that is oligarchical in nature. Thaksin and his supporters have in fact tried to expand educational opportunities to the rural population and redistribute Thailand's immense wealth by building roads, dams, bridges, hospitals, schools and colleges, etc.., in the rural areas, and of course through various subsidy programs such as the Rice Pledging Program.

Suthep, Ahbsit and their supporters are also wealthy and well-educated, but they are trying to replace the democratically-elected government with a some kind of yet-to-be-defined appointed government.

IMO it's their philosophy that the "elite" should rule the country and not a democratically-elected government that IMO makes them "elitists".

Thaksin is "not trying to replace a ... democracy with one that is oligarchical in nature"?

That is where I disagree.

He was/is trying to create a one party state with no independent opposition and no checks and balances on his power. That is why the PTP consistently announces it will ignore any court rulings that go against them. That is why two of the last three PTP Prime Ministers have been his family members (with the other, Samak, being a notorious fascist who admired Thaksin's authoritarian style). That seems kind of "oligarchical" to me.

[gchurch259]

I am a guest in this country, Retirement Visa. Have been for 10 years and paid my 7% VAT and the extreme VAT tax when I bought a car for my lovely Thai Wife. So I guess I eraned a small say.

There are way too many problems in Thailand for it to continue on the path it has allowed to be set. The USA, where I come from, is not a Democracy it is a Republic. Thailand is not a Democracy when is is run by bought votes and promises it can not keep.

There are 50 States in USA and 370,000,000 people controlled by 535 members of Congress/Senate. Thailand has 67,000,000 and 400 MP's for 77 Provinces.Way too much government and strutts around in fancy white uniforms. MP's that are Excutives of companies doing business with the government.

I do believe that Birth Control should be Retroactive in some cases of corruption. Worked for China for awhile.

Too much, Jerry

[cocopops]

This is NOT a class struggle. It is a struggle between people who have been bribed and are protecting their dishonest caretaker the Shinawatra clan and those who are sick and tired of corruption.

It has been characterized as a class struggle because coincidentally poor and so-called rich people are fighting each other.

This is typical Thailand, where people twist issues to suit their needs. Fact is the poor people are poor BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO BE POOR.

There are plenty of examples of hard working people who started off poor but who now, because of HARD WORK AND investing money in education instead of alcohol and prostitutes and minor wives, have been successful.

And innumerable examples of hard working people who spend their lives working significantly harder than either Blackmirage2013 or myself ever have or will, and yet live hand to mouth for the entire duration of their existence.

An honest look at our existence reveals that for the vast majority of people who ever lived or ever will live, the degree of "success" attained in life is directly proportional to the opportunities presented to us.

Edited February 26, 2014 by cocopops

[JamesDean3]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Care to define what Democracy is ? Please...

[binjalin]

another silly article from the elite mouthpiece

same pattern as in many other countries only difference in Thailand is that the mob is struggling AGAINST democracy whereas in every other country they fight FOR democracy TIT

the people will win through in the end but it's a long paradigm shift *sigh*

expect the elite to whine and struggle as it clings to power - the one clever thing they have done is convince some Thais and many TVF posters is that THEY (the un-democrats) are for democratic change, against corruption and want reform

clever that!!! but you can't fool all the people all of the time etc. and that is their problem (NO agenda, NO ideas, NO roadmap, NO timeline, NO suggestions of WHO these unelected 'rulers' will be)

Care to define what Democracy is ? Please...

de·moc·ra·cy [dih-mok-ruh-see]

noun, plural de·moc·ra·cies.

1.

government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.

2.

a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.

3.

a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.

4.

political or social equality; democratic spirit.

5.

the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

[Jasun]

Here are a couple of comments I've read in recent months:

"Why should uneducated people who are too stupid to realise they are being conned, and pay zero taxes be allowed to dictate what happens in my country?"

And from the other side:

"Why should people disrespect my vote, just because i'm poor and uneducated?"

Sounds a lot like a class struggle.

[tonbridgebrit]

Here are a couple of comments I've read in recent months:

"Why should uneducated people who are too stupid to realise they are being conned, and pay zero taxes be allowed to dictate what happens in my country?"

And from the other side:

"Why should people disrespect my vote, just because i'm poor and uneducated?"

Sounds a lot like a class struggle.

Is there a single politician (who is in any country that has elections) who will actually say "Why should uneducated who are too stupid to realise they are being conned, and pay zero taxes be allowed to dictate what happens in my country" ?? Surely, any politician who actually says that will be hated and lose whatever election ? And yet, some people are willing to actually say it !

It's the opinion of the speaker or critic to say that I am stupid and easily conned, my own opinion of the critic might be "you are simply refusing to accept that the party who won the election is the actual winner". Bearing in mind the different views, well, it still turns out that every man can vote, who in their right mind is going to say that the vote should be taken away from those who are "uneducated and pay zero tax" !!

Surely, we all accept that there's no way we can have any election where those who are uneducated and/or pay little tax cannot vote ?

Yes, democracy is about giving every man his vote regardless of his income/education/intelligence.

[angsta]

The Nation can take their "stoppage time" opinions and shove them up their a**. Its getting extremely tedious listening to their obfuscation and one sided reporting from their journalists.

Obfuscation. Great word. Nice post

Who said all Thaivisa posters were poorly educated, obnoxious, bitter, ignorant right-wing morons?