Pheu Thai should be dissolved for treason: Democrats

[Rob8891]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

It is totally irrelevant for falang to compare with what happens in Oz, the States or for that matter in Scotland.

[Morakot]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

Hard to believe. Any source for this?

PS: May I add Rob, the issue is more complex. The statement of Mr. Wirat is a reaction not to the headbands, but a reaction to rumours that certain supports are recruiting and mobilising troops for a separation move which clearly would be illegal. But reality currently is that these rumours are unfounded and do nothing that just to further steer up tension. The media of course is implicated in the game of misinformation: the game of combating rumours with other rumours.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Morakot

[Thai at Heart]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

It is totally irrelevant for falang to compare with what happens in Oz, the States or for that matter in Scotland.

I think this maybe one of those stupid areas a bit like Mr. Seghal

Its illegal bla bla bla . Everyone of position in Thailand likes to think they can force the little people about what they want to think and say, as though saying it will in some way make it worse. Obviously they have never read "the emporer had no clothes" in Thailand.

You are right is is irrelevant to compare Thailand with elsewhere, because in those other places people have reasoned, rational debate, which is a hell of a lot better than to say, don't think or say that. You know why? Because if you patronize people and try to infantilise them. Eventually, they will say, stuff you, I am free to think and say what I like.

[blabth]

I think half of the Thai visa member have to go to jail as many of you have mentioned and promoted the split of Thailand. Read your old emails you hypocrites. It was and is in many mind that a split may be happens one day. To ban a party as some individuals make comments like that is not appropriate. The party should expel this members that should be it. Anything more will widen the gap between the two group even more. It's time to consolidate not to divide more.

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[chooka]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

It is totally irrelevant for falang to compare with what happens in Oz, the States or for that matter in Scotland.

That may be so but if a few who voted for a particular party and are not actually part of that government advocate a particular move, should the government be held responsible for the thoughts of the man on the street?

[Mosha]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

Hard to believe. Any source for this?

http://www.asianlii.org/th/legis/const/2007/1.html

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Section 1. Thailand is one and indivisible Kingdom.

[Artisi]

The Democrats should be indicted for treason by overthrowing an elected government by blocking roads and government buildings with their thugs from Surat.

Do I support the guys from the North that talk about Lanna? Surely not but just lets get banned both of the parties and Thailand have a new start.

Fact check please, the Democrats didn't overthrow any government and haven't blocked any roads or buildings.

[Morakot]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

Hard to believe. Any source for this?

http://www.asianlii.org/th/legis/const/2007/1.html

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Section 1. Thailand is one and indivisible Kingdom.

Any source about an alleged prohibition to talk about this? Any source about an alleged prohibition to advocate separation? The constitution is a part of constitutional law and not criminal law. Treason is normally considered a crime.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Morakot

[chooka]

"number of Pheu Thai supporters have advocated for north and northeastern Thailand to be an independent state, separated from Bangkok and the rest of Thailand."

I hardly think that is a reason to dissolve a political party, whether you like them or not. I voted for the Liberals in the last Australian election and if I said that the state of Victoria should become independent does that mean that the liberal party of Australia should be dissolved? I few independent nutters and non politicians are entitled to their opinions.

The situation is different in Thailand, where it is considered illegal to talk of breaking up the Kingdom. Dangerous territory, so don't go there.

Hard to believe. Any source for this?

http://www.asianlii.org/th/legis/const/2007/1.html

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Section 1. Thailand is one and indivisible Kingdom.

If it is the government doing then yes but if it is a few radical nutjobs in the street then the government can't be held responsible for the thoughts of every citizen in the country. I hate the reds but blaming the government for the thoughts of some is stupid.

[Artisi]

How do you dissolve a party for something that your SUPPORTERS do?

I guess it depends on the situation and the seriousness.

Like the event Ms. Yingluck was at in the North of Thailand with red-shirts wearing separatist slogans around their head. At that moment Ms. Yingluck should have left the event in order to publicly dissociate herself with such ideas against the state she can't refuse to stop defending as caretaker PM. Of course with her it's utterly believable that she knew nothing, noticed nothing and anyway all people there liked me

She is only ever aware of what's on offer in the shopping malls, politics are for someone else to worry about.

[bigbamboo]

It's 'amazing' to think it has come this. People talking about the break up of the Thai nation and all because of one man who doesn't live here any more.

Edited March 3, 2014 by bigbamboo

[Artisi]

It's 'amazing' to think it has come this. People talking about the break up of the Thai nation and all because of one man who doesn't live here any more.

Well that's the fugitive for you, if he can't win he will go out of his way to destroy what ever stood in his way.

Such a caring, dedicated and honest Thai ......

[Fat Haggis]

and many would say to that and another who does... but you're right, it's crazy, and if the TV Farangs can't agree or come to their senses what chance have the Thais ?

[northernjohn]

But it's okay for Suthep to topple a sitting Democratic government with the King as head of state...??? LMAO! This gets more schoolyard every day..

... Article 68 of the Constitution, which criminalises any attempt to challenge the democratic regime with the King As Head of State. ?

Can you explain how Suthep is toppling a sitting government.

The PTP was the Parliament elected government and they chose to step down. A common tactic in that kind of government. The sitting party feels their support slipping away but they still have enough to win an election so they call for one before their support slips away.

Unfortunately for them in their typical inept way they misjudged the support they had. Even some of the red shirts are openly saying Thaksin does not belong in the government.

If you want one word to explain the reason it is not Suthep it is inept.

By the way if you are a farmer it is obvious you are not a rice farmer.

[northernjohn]

Increasingly desperate moves by a failed political party that couldn't even find the substance to stand in an election - the sort of thing that political parties are supposed to do.

Idiots.

Another political hack who thinks politicians are just supposed to get elected. A lot of good electing the last ones did us.

Also how much money can change hands before you stop calling it an election and call it bribery?

[Patje]

Idiots, get a life and do something meaningful with it !!!

[northernjohn]

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It was inevitable that the UDD's increasingly unconstitutional gambits would start to work against the interests of the Yingluck administration. By their failure to distance themselves from this movement, this administration has now becomes enveloped in it. It was Yingluck's responsibility as someone who has sworn to defend the constitution, to admonish this movement. She did not. Chalerm dismissed it as mere rhetoric - something no one truly believes, and certainly something no one behind this secession movement beliefs. These people are serious, and they are all too happy to oblige regarding any questions of ambiguity. These calls within the UDD are getting stronger and stronger. The irony is that they want to protect Yingluck. They want to give her refuge in Chiang Mai, and set up their own state. But what they really end up doing is hurting her, because all of that is profoundly unconstitutional. Indeed, Article 1 is very clear. The secession movement is clearly in violation of Article 1.

Excellent post.

A good Prime Minister would have been on the phone to have them arrested as soon as they said it.

Both sides are spouting nonesense mate, all the bickering in the world still isn't going to pay the farmers who are the real victims in all of this.

I wasn't aware that the anti government protestors were responsible in any way for the farmers getting stiffed by the government.

I was under the understanding that they were going to pay the legal fees for the farmers to take the government to court.

I wouldn't call that bickering. I would call it action.

As for the farmers being the real victim in all of this they are just another victim of the government.

This all started over other issues the rest of the population had with the government. That includes you also.

Every time you paid a VAT tax you were contributing to the personal fortune of many in the government.

Plus a convicted criminal who has chosen to live in Dubai rather than pay for one of his crimes here in Thailand.

Edited March 3, 2014 by northernjohn

[Morakot]

So if we carefully read Khaosod News we will discover the story of course does not add up.

Head of the Democrat legal team says:

• Pheu Thai Party is a separatist movement
• Separatist movements violate Article 1 of the 2007 Constitution (i.e. Kingdom of Thailand is one, indivisible state)
• Will file complaint to Constitution Court on ground of Article 68 (i.e. overthrow the democratic regime of government not allowed)

Edited March 3, 2014 by Morakot

[Cnxforever]

can't the " (anti)Democrats" not even try for once to win elections instead of getting into government the back door ?

Reality is that the Democrats have no choice but to dissolve their party. They will never win elections again.

Far too much hatred has been spread alienating a majority of the electorate to a point where they have become unelectable for most voters who would have been open to switch. Nothing but rhetoric and no idea how to run the country.

When they came to power after the coup people where watching - but everybody realized very soon all they had become was a cheap copy of the TRT party. All they came up with was the very "populist policies" they had been attacking TRT for over the years.

And even for that they where to stupid!! They gave the handouts to the wrong people!! They gave the checks worth tens of billions to the people who vote for them anyway - to the "middle class" people with secure jobs - while the poor who have to get by day by day got nothing!

They have become a bunch of whiners - leaderless without any ideas and without a platform.

The problem for most Thais is they have been robbed - and seen their country run by crooks since they can think. It must be very, very frustrating to go to elections with the knowledge that whoever you vote for will take the country to the cleaners - all you can hope for is that they throw a few crumbs your communities way.

They have to watch day in day out how the people in power fight for - and share the spoils and there is nothing they can do about it.

They have to watch how the so called "educated class" uses their education not to make their country a better place for all - but to rip them off and enrich themselves.

Whatever the name of their political party they are all the same. Police, armed forces, civil servants - all corrupt to the core with two things on their mind - power and money!

The situation is absolutely hopeless - corruption is everywhere from the highest to the lowest level - even if their are honest people in lower level administrative positions like I know a few in our community - they are shunned and pushed out by the corrupt crooks who have always the upper hand.

I can understand that some Thais have the opinion - mostly out of frustration - to start new - with their own country! But it's just that an opinion.

And the "Democrats" are no exception they are part of this corrupt "machine: like everybody else - them trying to take the higher moral ground here is absolutely ridiculous!

I can gather the villagers around me tomorrow and we declare our own state and raise our own flag! Do you think anybody would take us seriously - people would think we are cute - or maybe that we have a screw loose!

To ask that the PT party is dissolved for "treason" because a few people - claiming to represent others - talk about their own country is idiotic - especially when the Democrats boycott elections and prevent others from voting - pretend they have nothing to do with attempts over several month now to overthrow an elected government and replace it with an unelected "council" - get a live Mr. Wirat Kalyasiri!

Either come up with a democratic way - namely elections - to get into government or cease to exist so the country can move forward!

Edited March 3, 2014 by Cnxforever

[Baerboxer]

The dems could have made a difference if they participated in the last round of elections, they chose not to, shame really, it also does appear that in the past 48 hours there's been a very significant anti Government, Anti Shiniwatra step up, threats of acts of treason, sedition, you name it, it's all being thrown towards the curent establishment, rightly or wrongly.

It seems to be a step towards removing the peoplese right to vote, I think that even if PTP were to fold, it would make Thaksin even more determined to cause grief and disharmony in Thailand, I dare say all the people who support the PTP might feel a little agrieved too! ??

This week is sure going to be interesting!!!

what you did not say in your post

is that the pTP still have Taksin amnesty still on the table and in a short time will make it law

now you say that dems do not want an election

Have you ever though if this amnesty is wiped totally there would be an election

you would not be making a biased posting would you

Wouldn't the amnesty Bill benefit both Abhisit and Suthep as well?? I don't really know and to be honest I don't really care, as I'm a Farang with no say in what does and doesn't get passed through and I'm sure that such a Bill would have to meet with approval from much higher up??

I'm not biased in any way, I can't be arsed with either red or yellow nonesence it's like two fat kids bullying each other in a playground..

I'd much rather see the people United rather than divided as that's what's happening now.

The biggest beneficiaries would be the Shin clan and their cronies, plus a few others including Abhisit and Suthep. Although remember that some would have charges dropped whilst others would have convictions and flights from justice quashed.

It was the Amnesty bill that provoked such outrage from all strata of the Thai social structure, personal and organizational and in vast numbers. That was the final straw for many people and the way it was attempted to be sneaked through added to the outrage.

If, as suspected Poo has been told to cling on at all costs and consequences, so this can be be made law regardless, PTP will certainly need a large private army to fight the backlash. She will have to ignore any attempts at removing her due to caretaker status ending this week, or the NACC probes, possible charges and possible impeachment. If PTP manage to hold on and enact this into law, then there will almost certainly be civil war as Thaksin tries to return to power and remove "his" assets back.

Sadly, looks like they are gearing themselves up to do that. Removing Poo to the safety of Chiang Mai, trying to recruit a private army, talking about secession etc.

Thaksin maybe figures they have enough support under control to give it a go - all or nothing.

Both sides have an awful lot to loose now.

[ikke]

Pheu Thai MPs and house speaker taking orders from unelected fleeing criminals in Dubai is also a bit treasony.

Is there anyone un-elected giving orders ?

Please stay on-topic !

[Fat Haggis]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

[Basil B]

There is little seance in dissolving political parties as they will just reform under another name, better imprisoning for treason and LM those who openly advocating separation and forming a Republic.

[JAG]

The UDD (Redshirts) are a large political movement, broadly based in the North and North east of Thailand. They exist and owe their support to a widely held belief amongst the people in this area that the establishment in Bangkok have engineered the removal of the last four elected governments, which have come to power because of their votes.

They have become more alienated because it has been tried, and may succeed yet again. Suthep and his gangs rhetoric and plain old fashioned abuse, directed against them and their favourites, together with the unpunished shenanigans throughout the current election has served to deepen this alienation.

Talk of treason, the army moving against them, and dissolving political parties because of a few loonies making wild (silly) statements at political rallies is only going to push them further away.

The Thai establishment, and the army which it is so closely linked to, has not been able to control a successionist insurrection in the south, and that is with an army which conscripts many of its soldiers from the UDD heartland. It would be daft to set a spark which might (possibly) start a revolt in the North.

I don't think it would result in splitting Thailand, but I could envisage a government in Bangkok, whose writ doesn't run far beyond its immediate environs., with much of the North ignoring it. The deep south will have gone by then.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Trembly]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

The Emperor Mong is ever present.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Thai at Heart]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

You are discounting whether or not the entire current sitting army would be loyal and anti-Thaksin. This would be the ultimate fear. That big portions of the army would either refuse to support the main army or could even turn. The Thai army is not a unified force, and if you fancy trying to convince some Camp commander in say Udon Thani to roll his tanks down town to go and supress some protests, you better be ready to deliver a big wedge to his Swiss bank account.

[JAG]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

It (FIBUA) is called Fighting All Round Town these days I believe!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited March 3, 2014 by JAG

[Thai at Heart]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

You are discounting whether or not the entire current sitting army would be loyal and anti-Thaksin. This would be the ultimate fear. That big portions of the army would either refuse to support the main army or could even turn. The Thai army is not a unified force, and if you fancy trying to convince some Camp commander in say Udon Thani to roll his tanks down town to go and supress some protests, you better be ready to deliver a big wedge to his Swiss bank account.

[Fat Haggis]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

It (FIBUA) is called Fighting All Round Town these days I believe!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I seen what you done there I can't remember the new Numonic, I'm sure it was something about houses or something obscure because at the end of the day it's still fighting in built up areas..

Thai at heart, not discounting the willingness at all, I mentioned that in another thread , might have been the civil war one

[Thai at Heart]

Personally I think the Private Army thing is nothing more that wishful thinking, even to teach basic discipline within the ranks woulod take weeks, teaching them how to shoot and basic marksmanship principes , weapons handling and stoppage drills, camouflage and concealement, FIBUA or whatever it's called these days and the list goes on and on and on, you're talking about minimum 9 weeks to train these guys up to be any kind of semi effective fighting force, I train Local Nationals and at times I'm dealing with Motards, and keep having to go back to basics, I could show them stoppage drills on the AK47 a hundred times and they'd still not get it.

Then you've got to indoctrinate these guys to make them want to fight, and that they might be killed, and you have to give them a motive that's so strong that they are willing to die, that's not going to be easy.. I can't see the recruiter telling them, come and join our Army, oh by the way, you'll be fighting the Royal Thai Army next week, can you shoot!! ???

It (FIBUA) is called Fighting All Round Town these days I believe!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I seen what you done there I can't remember the new Numonic, I'm sure it was something about houses or something obscure because at the end of the day it's still fighting in built up areas..

Thai at heart, not discounting the willingness at all, I mentioned that in another thread , might have been the civil war one

I was a little privy to what went on during the previous crack down in my town up country in isaan The army were fuelled and ready to go, but they were petrified to send the tanks downtown. The city hall got burnt, and everyone stood around and watched. Prior to that, the poster of someone had been burnt in front of the army base in town, but that was never printed in the paper. Army commanders with their own camps do not just jump to attention because Bangkok tells them to do so.

It is all done on promises of future promotion and cash. Does anyone think the Thai army has enough loyal soldiers to surpress an uprising in metropolitan areas across the whole country? No way. Too many places, with too many people, and too little urban warfare training and equipment for the soldiers. They are hopeless in the south, they would be even more useless up north and the north east. They won't easily shoot their own on a nationwide basis. No way.