Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[3NUMBAS]

the UK sub could find it in no time as it has state of the art 3D modeling from sonar signals ,you wont need a submersible .

[tigermonkey]

Right. Back to the story.

So.

As events unfold, we move from the cynicism of many that it is nowhere near the Indian Ocean to:

'Well it may be down there but the ocean floor is tricky.'

It seems pretty clear to me that they will find chunks of metal down there, and the only chunks of metal are likely to be from MH370.

Once they find aircraft parts there is a very high probability they will find the black box.

When the black box is analysed there will be detailed information about who said what to who, what interference took place, and may provide clues to who did what, and why they did it.

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers.

I don't think they will learn much from the voice recorder, as it has a limited record time. The only thing that will be heard is Bitchin Betty, the computerized system voice calling out alerts as the first engine runs out of fuel and various conditions occur. They might learn more from the digital flight data recorder, but the airframe will likely hold the most clues to what happened. It is not going to be a short process.

You may not even hear that. If comms and ACARS were shut down intentionally, probably both recorfers would be shut down also. CVR would have the last 2 hours before shutdown, while the FDR would have a quite long period of recording. If the CB's for both were pulled shortly after the last ATC conversation, they will be virtually useless.

Edited April 9, 2014 by tigermonkey

[tigermonkey]

Yep 2 hr voice record seems crazy.

The box should give us a clue on whether it flew to Diego Garcia, via Pakistan, after a meteor hit it presumably?

The pilot union around the world fought long and hard to keep the recording at 2 hours. It was viewed as a privacy issue whereby the company could spy on them while working.Prior to that time, most CVRs were 1/2 hour. Cnange is long overdue.

[P45Mustang]

I bow to your superior knowledge tigermonkey.

[P45Mustang]

Are the thinking of a name for the search area , triangle is taken so maybe Perth Pentacle

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Perth Pentacle is an improvement on Diego Garcia, that's for sure.

[sevenhills]

Well, if it was a can of beer at 6000 metres, the Aussies would find it.

So i'm confident.

Only if it was still cold.

Oh yeah at that depth it will be real cold.

[SGD]

Right. Back to the story.

So.

As events unfold, we move from the cynicism of many that it is nowhere near the Indian Ocean to:

'Well it may be down there but the ocean floor is tricky.'

It seems pretty clear to me that they will find chunks of metal down there, and the only chunks of metal are likely to be from MH370.

Once they find aircraft parts there is a very high probability they will find the black box.

When the black box is analysed there will be detailed information about who said what to who, what interference took place, and may provide clues to who did what, and why they did it.

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers.

My understanding is that the cockpit voice recorder only records for two hours, looping over

the previous block of time. So if they do find it, there will be a whole lot of who said what to who

missing....... I suspect the airline industry will be changing this period of time to the length of a

flight.

No need to have it changed to any particular length, just multiple "chips" or whatever capable of recording days or weeks of data with constant relaying and backup to satellites. Include video of the plane and cockpit as well if you want, no reason to limit it to sound and telemetry.

As some have mentioned, future plane design could include a bouy or whatever which separates from the plane and gives a guaranteed locator.

[P45Mustang]

Well, if it was a can of beer at 6000 metres, the Aussies would find it.

So i'm confident.

Only if it was still cold.

Oh yeah at that depth it will be real cold.

[tigermonkey]

Well, if it was a can of beer at 6000 metres, the Aussies would find it.

So i'm confident.

Only if it was still cold.

Oh yeah at that depth it will be real cold.

It would be interesting to see if it would survive without being crushed by the pressure. I would expect it to be totally crushed, but we did see surviving bottles of wine from the Titanic.

[F430murci]

Right. Back to the story.

So.

As events unfold, we move from the cynicism of many that it is nowhere near the Indian Ocean to:

'Well it may be down there but the ocean floor is tricky.'

It seems pretty clear to me that they will find chunks of metal down there, and the only chunks of metal are likely to be from MH370.

Once they find aircraft parts there is a very high probability they will find the black box.

When the black box is analysed there will be detailed information about who said what to who, what interference took place, and may provide clues to who did what, and why they did it.

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers.

I don't think they will learn much from the voice recorder, as it has a limited record time. The only thing that will be heard is Bitchin Betty, the computerized system voice calling out alerts as the first engine runs out of fuel and various conditions occur. They might learn more from the digital flight data recorder, but the airframe will likely hold the most clues to what happened. It is not going to be a short process.

You may not even hear that. If comms and ACARS were shut down intentionally, probably both recorfers would be shut down also. CVR would have the last 2 hours before shutdown, while the FDR would have a quite long period of recording. If the CB's for both were pulled shortly after the last ATC conversation, they will be virtually useless.

While transponder and most systems that require electrical current can be switched off or have a circuit breaker due to fire hazard, I have always thought the black box cannot be disabled in flight. So boxes can be disabled in flight through circuit breaker?

Edited April 9, 2014 by F430murci

[retell]

Well, if it was a can of beer at 6000 metres, the Aussies would find it.

So i'm confident.

Only if it was still cold.

Oh yeah at that depth it will be real cold.

It would be interesting to see if it would survive without being crushed by the pressure. I would expect it to be totally crushed, but we did see surviving bottles of wine from the Titanic.

I think if they are going to send down a xxxmultimilliondollar device they are not looking for a can of tiger

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[sunshine51]

An area the size of Scotland?! To be searched with an underwater vehicle?? To take weeks???

Wouldn't it be more like lifetimes? (And that's assuming the area defined for the search IS actually where the aircraft is.)

Certainly more than weeks but less than a lifetime. A multibeam and/or side scan sonar surveying a swath of 1km wide at 5km/hr (5km2 coverage/hr) should have a bin size small enough to pick up large debris pieces. Scotland is 78,772 Km2. One vessel should in theory be able to cover the area in 15,754 hours or 656 days. Put 4 vessels out there and you cover the area in 164 days. In reality there would be time lost for turn arounds, weather, technical problems etc.

It is practical to seach this area, its all a matter of how much money you want to throw at it.

The ocean bed in the search area is very mountainous, sadly, I think a life time would be closer to the mark.

There is not much bathometry in this area. From what I can see on google earth it does not look too bad. I would call it hilly rather than mountainous. The topography of the seabed may complicate the the seach slightly but not significantly.

Topography of the ocean floor in the current search area...

Link to the surface ships working the area....click the drop down & look for MH370

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/

Edited April 9, 2014 by sunshine51

[EyesWideOpen]

I did see a posting by someone on an aviation site who said there is in fact a circuit breaker for the cockpit voice recorder, but it is located in the lower electronics bay, not in the cockpit. Perhaps a 777 pilot here could verify that. It would truly be the final bizarre twist to this incident if the plane is recovered, and the cockpit voice recorder is.............blank.

[P45Mustang]

Seems to me if a Cockpit Voice Recorder or Flight Data Recorder can be interfered with, they are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Surely in this post 9/11 era the technology is up to the job?

[tigermonkey]

Right. Back to the story.

So.

As events unfold, we move from the cynicism of many that it is nowhere near the Indian Ocean to:

'Well it may be down there but the ocean floor is tricky.'

It seems pretty clear to me that they will find chunks of metal down there, and the only chunks of metal are likely to be from MH370.

Once they find aircraft parts there is a very high probability they will find the black box.

When the black box is analysed there will be detailed information about who said what to who, what interference took place, and may provide clues to who did what, and why they did it.

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers.

I don't think they will learn much from the voice recorder, as it has a limited record time. The only thing that will be heard is Bitchin Betty, the computerized system voice calling out alerts as the first engine runs out of <deleted>el and various conditions occur. They might learn more from the digital flight data recorder, but the airframe will likely hold the most clues to what happened. It is not going to be a short process.

You may not even hear that. If comms and ACARS were shut down intentionally, probably both recorfers would be shut down also. CVR would have the last 2 hours before shutdown, while the FDR would have a quite long period of recording. If the CB's for both were pulled shortly after the last ATC conversation, they will be virtually useless.

While transponder and most systems that require electrical current can be switched off or have a circuit breaker due to fire hazard, I have always thought the black box cannot be disabled in flight. So boxes can be disabled in flight through circuit breaker?

Yes - not sure of location in the T7, but it is usually in the MEC ( mechanical and electronic closet) for a Boeing

Edited April 9, 2014 by tigermonkey

[Chicog]

They seem quite confident of finding the aircraft. Could perhaps the two sets of pings be from different angles?

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[EyesWideOpen]

In the Silk Air 185 crash, both the CVR and the FDR were turned off...So can be done on a 737, don't know

about a 777.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185#CVR_and_FDR_deactivation

"The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder stopped recording minutes before the abrupt descent, but not at the same time.^[7] A technical analysis of the sound signature of a CVR circuit breaker trip, as recorded by the CVR, was carried out by investigators and the evidence showed that the CVR stoppage was consistent with being manually initiated."

[retell]

Right. Back to the story.

So.

As events unfold, we move from the cynicism of many that it is nowhere near the Indian Ocean to:

'Well it may be down there but the ocean floor is tricky.'

It seems pretty clear to me that they will find chunks of metal down there, and the only chunks of metal are likely to be from MH370.

Once they find aircraft parts there is a very high probability they will find the black box.

When the black box is analysed there will be detailed information about who said what to who, what interference took place, and may provide clues to who did what, and why they did it.

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers.

I don't think they will learn much from the voice recorder, as it has a limited record time. The only thing that will be heard is Bitchin Betty, the computerized system voice calling out alerts as the first engine runs out of el and various conditions occur. They might learn more from the digital flight data recorder, but the airframe will likely hold the most clues to what happened. It is not going to be a short process.

You may not even hear that. If comms and ACARS were shut down intentionally, probably both recorfers would be shut down also. CVR would have the last 2 hours before shutdown, while the FDR would have a quite long period of recording. If the CB's for both were pulled shortly after the last ATC conversation, they will be virtually useless.

While transponder and most systems that require electrical current can be switched off or have a circuit breaker due to fire hazard, I have always thought the black box cannot be disabled in flight. So boxes can be disabled in flight through circuit breaker?

Yes - not sure of location in the T7, but it is usually in the MEC ( mechanical and electronic chamber)

Its not like a deep hidden secret so we can say that a pilot can figure out what breaker it is down there , probaly got a tag o it say cvr or something like code that he can look up in the troubleshootmanual (if those really exist and are not another hollywood invention)

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[P45Mustang]

They seem quite confident of finding the aircraft. Could perhaps the two sets of pings be from different angles?

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That is exactly what I thought when I looked at the chart on:

Tywais post no 3560

[khaosai]

I disagree with the notion that this aircraft could have been ditched intact.

US Airways Flight 1549 (A320, wingspan 112ft) ditching in the Hudson was one thing. Trying to put a 777 (wingspan 200ft) down in the middle of the ocean would be quite another. CAPT Sullenberger successfully ditched his aircraft on a calm river, and holes were torn in the fuselage even so. I don't think I've seen any informed guesses as to the sea conditions specifically in the areas which have been the focus of recent days' searching, but generally I have to guess that they couldn't have been anywhere near as benign as the Hudson River on the day of Sullenberger's ditching. It doesn't take much to catch a wing tip or the tail on a wave top; it's difficult enough even on smooth water. CAPT Shah's flying experience, though he WAS an instructor pilot, was not quite as extensive as Sullenberger, who is an ex-USAF fighter pilot who at the time of the accident had logged over 19660 hours, 4765 of them in type. He's also an air safety expert and glider pilot. Furthermore, if MH370 came down having run out of fuel and deadstick, perhaps without even a living pilot in the cockpit, and just hit the water in a steep glide (best case; nose-first worst case), I think it almost certain the aircraft would have been torn apart by the impact. ...torn apart to the extent that the remains consist of small pieces now widely dispersed, as TaH has suggested. Even if CAPT Shah was alive, and controlling the aircraft, under power, at the time of a ditching attempt, I'd consider the possibility of him doing it successfully beyond remote.

Agree 110%. I give you an A+.

Further back there's a quote of an "expert" who predicted that if the plane when in nose first and vertical, that the wings would tear off and sink, but the fuselage wouldn't be significantly harmed and would simply go into the water and sink. I throw the BS flag. It would have shattered to bits.

Somewhere else in this thread there's an article that says the typical wave height in that area is 5 meters, or 15 feet. So if you're alive and controlling the plane, what to you do? Land parallel to the waves and if so in the trough or try for a wave top, both of which are moving? Or do you land perpendicular to the waves and plow into them?

I think either would be impossible and would destroy the plane.

Well, there is training gouge, for smaller aircraft anyway, which dictates that you land parallel (and into the wind if possible, but more important not to nose into a swell). But hitting the surface of the water nose-first at somewhere around 200+ knots, or much more if actually in a steep dive, you might as well be smashing into a concrete wall. Literally. Don't know where the other poster got his information about just "shearing the wings off" and leaving the fuselage intact. That's pure fantasy and totally untrue.

Hi,

The B777 flight crew training manual states the following technique to adopt during ditching.

Fly at the appropriate reference speed, dictated by weight and flap setting. Descent rate of approx 200 to 300 feet per minute. Touchdown on the windward side, parallel to the waves or swell if possible. To accomplish the flare and touch down, rotate to the touch down attitude of 10 to 12 degrees nose up. Maintain airspeed and rate of descent with thrust. This obviously assumes a controlled ditching.

At 180 tons in weight the reference speed with flaps 30 will be 128 knots. At 200 tons the speed increases to 135 knots.

[khaosai]

I did see a posting by someone on an aviation site who said there is in fact a circuit breaker for the cockpit voice recorder, but it is located in the lower electronics bay, not in the cockpit. Perhaps a 777 pilot here could verify that. It would truly be the final bizarre twist to this incident if the plane is recovered, and the cockpit voice recorder is.............blank.

Hi,

That is correct. The circuit breakers are not located in the flight deck for the CVR/FDR.

The CVR can be erased in the flight deck via the erase switch, but only on the ground with electrical power established and the brakes set.

[P45Mustang]

Presumably FDR data is secure up to the point it is switched off?

SilkAir 185 CVR manually disabled. Not clear from above post if FDR stopping was manually initiated?

[annabel]

3. Why have the FIVE people who checked into MH370 and but never got on the flight and had their bags removed never been identified and had their faces and good luck stories pasted all over the newspapers?

Just wondering how these stories can be thrown out there with no closure at all.... but with such long threads as this maybe all answered and I missed it?

Think this once again. If you would be one of those 5 people, would you like to go to the front of the media and say how lucky you were.. while the families of the people who died are mouring their loved ones?

Furthermore there would be all kind of suspicious rumours about these "5 survivors" and the media would be knocking their doors. Not an pleasant situation to be.

By protecting their identifies, the authorities and the media has done more good than bad.

Where have you been ? This angle was cleared up 4 weeks ago. NOBODY checked in then did not board the plane. Five people that had booked and paid for the flight failed to show up on the day. This happens on a lot of flights. That is why they have wait lists. And in this occasion five people from the wait list were bumped up on the manifest.

You are totally wrong... They did check in and then didn't show up and their luggage was removed..... 144 pages later and no one remembers this ...http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/03/10/malaysia-airlines-plane-hijacked-missing-5-passengers/

And yes they should damn well be questionned !

[P45Mustang]

I'm a newcomer to this story.

'They did check in and then didn't show up and their luggage was removed.'

1.Is this reliable up to date information?

2. If so, whose responsibility was it to investigate them and why they failed to board?

3. What do we know?

Or is this a hijack theory that has been done to death already?

[retell]

3. Why have the FIVE people who checked into MH370 and but never got on the flight and had their bags removed never been identified and had their faces and good luck stories pasted all over the newspapers?

Just wondering how these stories can be thrown out there with no closure at all.... but with such long threads as this maybe all answered and I missed it?

Think this once again. If you would be one of those 5 people, would you like to go to the front of the media and say how lucky you were.. while the families of the people who died are mouring their loved ones?

Furthermore there would be all kind of suspicious rumours about these "5 survivors" and the media would be knocking their doors. Not an pleasant situation to be.

By protecting their identifies, the authorities and the media has done more good than bad.

Where have you been ? This angle was cleared up 4 weeks ago. NOBODY checked in then did not board the plane. Five people that had booked and paid for the flight failed to show up on the day. This happens on a lot of flights. That is why they have wait lists. And in this occasion five people from the wait list were bumped up on the manifest.

You are totally wrong... They did check in and then didn't show up and their luggage was removed..... 144 pages later and no one remembers this ...http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/03/10/malaysia-airlines-plane-hijacked-missing-5-passengers/

And yes they should well be questionned !

If memory serves me well i recall m.a.s. stating there never where 5 missing passengers

Everybody got aboard as planned

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[P45Mustang]

Factual information required please.

Edited April 9, 2014 by P45Mustang

[SurfRider]

.
"You are totally wrong... They did check in and then didn't show up and their luggage was removed..... 144 pages later and no one remembers this"

Why would anyone believe a story from an unknown publication named "Hollywood Life"??? That story came out two days after the plane was lost. 99% of the information from that period has since been found to be either rumor or blatantly false. Find a credible source for this information if you expect anyone to believe it.
.

[retell]

Factual information required please.

somewhere inbetween page 1 and 100

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[EyesWideOpen]

Here you go... So pick which one you want to believe in the barrage of misinformation from Malaysian Airlines....

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/the-tweets-from-a-passenger-who-claims-to-have-missed-boarding-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/story-fnizu68q-1226852311845

Statement number one a couple of days after the plane disappeared......

"DAYS after the Malaysia Airlines flight disappeared en route to Beijing, mystery still surrounds the identity of four passengers who failed to board the flight.

On Monday Malaysia’s civil aviation chief Azharuddin Abdul Rahman told a press conference that five passengers checked in for the flight but didn’t end up boarding the plane.

He was quick to assure the public their baggage was removed from the plane, in accordance with strict regulations.

Statement number two the following day....

"Malaysia Airlines released a statement overnight that quashed the civil aviation body’s claim, and in the process raised a whole new series of questions over what really happened in the moments before the flight.

A message on their website read: “This statement is in reference to the many queries on the alleged five passengers who checked-in but did not board MH370 on 8 March 2014 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing despite having valid tickets to travel.

“Malaysia Airlines wishes to clarify that there were four passengers who had valid booking to travel on flight MH370, 8 March 2014, but did not show up to check-in for the flight.

“As such, the issue of off-loading unaccompanied baggage did not arise, as the said four passengers did not check in for the flight. Hence, the above claim is untrue.”

Edited April 9, 2014 by EyesWideOpen

[P45Mustang]

Clear as mud.

Therefore fishy.

What do professional intelligence agencies make of this conflicting information?

Or is everything being covered up so even the professionals can't get a look in?