German party urges new election for Thailand

[Morakot]

In the long run, social conflicts can only be resolved by social compromise between all sides.

A profoundly German notion of Realpolitik. Already difficult to see this applied in many other European countries outside Germany, never mind in Thailand.

The idealism the German Social Democrats put forward should be applauded though.

[geriatrickid]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people. Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand. Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

I believe that the majority of Thai people do want an election.

I am worried because I am hearing less people talking about about working together to find a solution and more talking about getting rid of the other side.

The people of Thailand are becoming more "information Savvy",

They will not stand by and allow the old guard to get rid of another elected government.

The majority of Thai people ... Do Not Care..... Don't you get it Dr Bruce... Have you even been up-country here... Majority of these peoples cannot read or write, they don't know and don't care... Have you ever asked a Thai person to point out where Thailand is on a world map..? Or where Bangkok is on a Thailand map..... Why do Farang men live here..? its sure not because the women have brains..! and we sure do not want to make friends with Thai men.. unless you swing that way..!!

Wow.

and wow again.

Read that a few times and you will understand why some people have nothing but contempt for foreign guests in Thailand.

[Scamper]

The sentiments expressed by this German party are actually not in discord from anything the Democratic party would say. The questions that need therefore to be addressed ensuing from this are -

- Is Thailand Germany ? No.

- Is Thailand like any other Western country ? No.

And the very, very key question -

Has Thailand adopted the same democracy process - not just the framework - together with the same rigors of checks and balances that most Western democracies experience, and again very importantly together with the acceptance of those rulings of the courts and independent agencies to the degree that many other countries experience ? Emphatically not. Thailand is a democracy in progress. But as such it has not yet found it's way towards free and fair elections, certainly not to the degree that is understood in most countries that we may cite as models. Money talks in U.S. politics. But here it is a way of life. Corruption of the vote extends right down to the grass roots level. It is endemic. There is a strong element of patronage and nepotism. There is in place the checks and balances of the parliamentary system, the independent agencies and the courts, yes. But people may have noticed, they don't seem to hold the same degree of sway or respect ! And their authority and rulings are continually questioned. The police in any society have also a pivotal role in protecting the institutions of the law and the upholding of the constitution, but here again, we see that that has not exactly happened either ! The police are subject to the same ebb and flow of who is pulling the strings - and the one who has the most money tends to have distinct advantages. So the practice of democracy has been under enormous constraints. In fact, it is remarkable that it is doing as well as it is, considering all these constraints !

Phue Thai doesn't want an election because the system works. Pheu Thai wants an election because it doesn't. There is a growing belief that reform is desperately needed before the next election. It is shared by all those who recognize all these impediments to free and fair elections. Reform means strengthening the judiciary. Reform mean strengthening the independent agencies. Reform means giving teeth to the application of the law that metes out corruption in the formation of bills, or infractions of the parliamentary process or in the election of candidates at the constituency level. Reform means that the police are in accordance with their mandate - to apply the law evenly and fairly. These are all the elements of democracy. There is not just one element. Reform means strengthening all the tools of democracy.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Scamper

[oldsailor35]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people. Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand. Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

Utter crap !

[Dr Bruce]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people. Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand. Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

I believe that the majority of Thai people do want an election.

I am worried because I am hearing less people talking about about working together to find a solution and more talking about getting rid of the other side.

The people of Thailand are becoming more "information Savvy",

They will not stand by and allow the old guard to get rid of another elected government.

The majority of Thai people ... Do Not Care..... Don't you get it Dr Bruce... Have you even been up-country here... Majority of these peoples cannot read or write, they don't know and don't care... Have you ever asked a Thai person to point out where Thailand is on a world map..? Or where Bangkok is on a Thailand map..... Why do Farang men live here..? its sure not because the women have brains..! and we sure do not want to make friends with Thai men.. unless you swing that way..!!

I travel extensively in Thailand. Most of my work is in BKK, but I travel to projects all over the country.

I have to deal with Thai civil servants on a weekly basis and know how to grease the wheels.

I directly employ 12 Thai people and often am in charge of projects employing hundreds.

I have a small house in BKK and a much larger one in Issaan. I find that the majority of Thai people do care. many in the north almost worship Taksin but most know that he will never be allowed back.

I have to take issue with your thoughts on the people from the north, i find that almost all people under 40 can read and write and that the majority of older people have less skills with a pen.

I not only talk to many Thai people but I also listen to them as well.

[oldsailor35]

The Germans should direct their comments to the hate monger living in Dubai.

Get rid of the Shinawatras and their money and you 'might' have something closer to a normal system.

The closest and most dangerous "thing" happening to Thailand at the moment is Suthep.

[Morakot]

Phue Thai doesn't want an election because the system works. Pheu Thai wants an election because it doesn't. There is a growing belief that reform is desperately needed before the next election. It is shared by all those who recognize all these impediments to free and fair elections. Reform means strengthening the judiciary. Reform mean strengthening the independent agencies. Reform means giving teeth to the application of the law that metes out corruption in the formation of bills, or infractions of the parliamentary process or in the election of candidates at the constituency level. Reform means that the police are in accordance with their mandate - to apply the law evenly and fairly. These are all the elements of democracy. There is not just one element. Reform means strengthening all the tools of democracy.

Very strange!

Why does one needs to proceed the other? Why can reforms and routine parliamentary processes not happen at the same time?

[The stuttering parrot]

Thailand is already a democratic country and does hold elections.

The problem is that a certain rich group of elitist want the one thing they can't attain and that's power by the ballot box.

So if they can't win by democratic means they silently back sutep and feed him tactics to seize power by any means possible as long as they can deny the thai people of their democratic rights.

A lot of countries have invested big time in Thailand and would like everyone else see a peaceful outcome to this ongoing circus otherwise some of those investors might take their money elsewhere.

Reading some of the comments on here and other threads the blocking of people's fun dementia right to vote is ok with you.

I'd like to see your reaction if you wanted to vote and a team of thugs denied you the rite.

And that includes what ever party you wanted to vote for.

[xminator]

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

What ARE you on about? Thailand is a democracy and democracy is a method, not something that can be attributed to ideology in any way, shape or form.

Rather than re-read after posting I have held off while having a spot of breakfast so as to consider what you have said. Oh right, you don't consider Thailand to be living under a Democracy and to that I fully agree, sorry.

So, after re-reading your post, you appear to think "democracy" should have an exact blueprint/formula that is to be used by every country/state/province/region around the world?

Democracy is what the participants make of it. Not something that is forced down their throat by others.

And once a minority claiming to be the majority by education and heritage changes the system outside the majority rule to make sure they can have the power to rule, it is no longer democracy.

[Eliot Rosewater]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people.Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand.Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

These are Germans, they come from a country called Germany, perhaps you should look at a map

They do know what democracy means, you do not

Democracy is our (western)word and part of our culture

Do what you want but stop using our word, your misunderstanding of it only shows your ignorance and hubris

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[puck2]

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

You are completely right. Reading this generalising bullsh0t in the original language shows you they really don't know any background details of the complicated situation here in Thailand. It's only a bla..bla, blowing words into the air.

If you read the comments of the diplomats they are not very different, there is no real value in those air bubbles. But diplomacy is a different job.

[Thai at Heart]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people.Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand.Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

Hana. That didn't take long.

Another odd answer. I think there is a pattern emerging here.

[Thai at Heart]

Surprise, surprise. I'll bet most posters thought the US was the nosy Parker of the world and here we hear from some German group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany

http://ostseeparlamentarierkonferenz.de/htdocs_e/bundestag/groups/index.html

Well.of course. They have tried to vilify the USA for apparently sticking its nose and and accusing it if "falang in understand" . now the Germans.

Oh whoops. Maybe a few more countries will pipe up now. All falangs no understand???

[Baerboxer]

Germany, where wearing a clothing label is banned. Yes, the Germans have much to teach the world about freedom of speech and association.

Yes, Germany is a terrible place, because you cannot show off your designer labels. Furthermore, we...

...only have had a functioning democracy for almost 70 years now, in which governments typically complete two or more terms without a hitch;

...don't change our prime ministers (chancellors) every few months;

...wouldn't vote for politicians who hop from party to party as they please, because we wouldn't trust people who do not stand for clearly-defined principles; on which we could base our decision who to vote for and who to ignore;

...jail high-ranking politicians if they're caught breaking the law (no such thing as an "inactive post" in Germany);

...arrest and sent to jail canvassers and their political masters if they're found buying votes from the electorate;

...would have no qualms reporting a policeman or government official demanding a bribe from us;

...enjoy watching extensive live debates between politicians on TV to enable us to make a more informed choice when go to the ballot;

...likewise enjoy reading pages over pages of political analyses in newspapers and magazines prior to an election, and for the same reason to educate ourselves about our ballot choices;

...would let a storm break lose if our government would try to clandestinely push through a controversial law that absolves all former and active politicians of their wrongdoings;

...always question how the government spends OUR money and demand answers;

...have a military that is subjecting itself to the decisions made by the civilian government and does not threaten to carry out a coup d'etat every few years.

But hey, we all feel really really oppressed because we cannot wear clothing labels openly. It negatively affects our lives tremendously!

Hate to say this cliche but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

if Germany is such a utopia..................................... you're not a prisoner here.

The reality is that democracy in the West is mature, but wasn't achieved lightly. Britain had its civil war, industrial revolution and then social class wars through parliament (see how many British WW1 soldiers didn't even have the right to vote). The US had its war of independence and then a savage civil war. France had it revolution and then periods of emperor dictatorships. Spain and Portugal were dictatorships well after WW2. Germany suffered under 2 dictatorships, both of which caused world wars and countless deaths and suffering. The reason Germany is a democracy today is the direct consequence of being an occupied defeated country whose conquerors helped rebuild the political infrastructure is such a was as to try to prevent the rise of extremism and protect real democratic principles. As often happens the pupil overtakes the teachers.

Thailand has had none of this. The old feudal legacies, the patronage system, everything revolving around money and wealth, the "Chinese colonization", the uneasy unspoken alliance of the rich elite families. Thailand has not been through the radical disruptive changes other countries have. Even their involvement in WW2 didn't really change much as it did for others.

The German SDP comments appear to be suggesting elections mean democracy. Germany, of all countries should know very well that elections do not guarantee democracy on their own. On that basis, they are patronizing at best.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Baerboxer

[puck2]

Germans need to shut up and mind their own business.

Yes, they should.

But they did it in the past.

That's the reason why the Germans didn't suppport dictators like Pinochet in Chile, Al Qaida during the Afghan-Russian War (you forgot it already?), or have been a member of a group starting a war for oil in the Iraq under the pretext that there are atomic weapons.

[rickirs]

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Germans need to shut up and mind their own business.

Advice on democracy that comes from a country that conquered Europe and half of Russia under Hitler, and was subsequently half governed by Communist USSR might be considered useful on how to lose democracy, develop democracy, and maintain democracy.Germany is one of the most successful technological, economic, and democratic countries in the world.

What can be said of Thailand? Saying Thai politics is a "Thai thing" is just an excuse for failure. A failure Thailand doesn't need in a continent where many other coutries have or are out pacing Thailand through their own democratic and economic successes.

[tomhell]

Dear Mr. Soundman,

first we can remind ourselves that we are falang. We know nothing and we can relax

Indeed the situation in Thailand is complex and democracy should be never forced on people. People everywhere on this planet should be thirsty (or hungry) for democracy. Some people have a big appetite some people on a diet. Eyeryone decides for himself. That´s ok also in western countries some people (up to 50% of the population) are not interested in elections (the so called party of the non voters) In politics it´s an art to mobilize these non-voters. The most used techniques are populist schemes. Not all are bad but many times they are empty promises and manipulation. An general problem everywhere.

Another problem is when "big money" buys into politics. So called elites (banks,companies, old or new family clans) buy/influence politicians and disturb the democratic process.

The most basic foundation for any kind of democratic system is indeed the slogan: one man/woman - one vote. Everyone is equal.

If a culture/society cannot agree on this we have the mess which we see now in Thailand.

I asked the following questions many times in forum (somtimes questions more important than an answers). No one game me an answer.

1. What does it concrete mean when the PDRC (Suthep) says: We need reforms before an election.

2. Are there any concrete reforms suggestions until now.

3. Who decides which reforms will be law.

Have a nice day!

Tom

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

What ARE you on about? Thailand is a democracy and democracy is a method, not something that can be attributed to ideology in any way, shape or form.

Rather than re-read after posting I have held off while having a spot of breakfast so as to consider what you have said. Oh right, you don't consider Thailand to be living under a Democracy and to that I fully agree, sorry.

So, after re-reading your post, you appear to think "democracy" should have an exact blueprint/formula that is to be used by every country/state/province/region around the world?

Democracy is what the participants make of it. Not something that is forced down their throat by others.

[Mentors]

A slap in the face for the Yellow Whistle Mob.

[chotthee]

A slap in the face for the Yellow Whistle Mob.

Isn't Hitler from Germany?

How dare these German suggest what Thai should or should not do.

No shame. Go look into your own history first.

[Thai at Heart]

I can't wait for Michael Yon to try to spin this story. What a strange fellow he is.

[Mentors]

A slap in the face for the Yellow Whistle Mob.

Isn't Hitler from Germany?

How dare these German suggest what Thai should or should not do.

No shame. Go look into your own history first.

Do you know in which year we live?

Btw. Adolf H. was Austrian.

[fab4]

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

Ridiculous statement, could have been Sondhi talking.

The only thing complicated about Thai politics is all the politicking to goes on behind doors by people with undue influence, much like what happens in "Western" politics . Do we ignore all the past elections that have been held, because, according to you, the Thais are not ready for One Man One vote?

Edited April 15, 2014 by fab4

[Mentors]

I can't wait for Michael Yon to try to spin this story. What a strange fellow he is.

Oh yes, this fat guy will take this chance in hope to earn more donations from naive readers...

[puck2]

Hate to say this cliche but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

if Germany is such a utopia..................................... you're not a prisoner here.

The reality is that democracy in the West is mature, but wasn't achieved lightly. Britain had its civil war, industrial revolution and then social class wars through parliament (see how many British WW1 soldiers didn't even have the right to vote). The US had its war of independence and then a savage civil war. France had it revolution and then periods of emperor dictatorships. Spain and Portugal were dictatorships well after WW2. Germany suffered under 2 dictatorships, both of which caused world wars and countless deaths and suffering. The reason Germany is a democracy today is the direct consequence of being an occupied defeated country whose conquerors helped rebuild the political infrastructure is such a was as to try to prevent the rise of extremism and protect real democratic principles. As often happens the pupil overtakes the teachers.

Thailand has had none of this. The old feudal legacies, the patronage system, everything revolving around money and wealth, the "Chinese colonization", the uneasy unspoken alliance of the rich elite families. Thailand has not been through the radical disruptive changes other countries have. Even their involvement in WW2 didn't really change much as it did for others.

The German SDP comments appear to be suggesting elections mean democracy. Germany, of all countries should know very well that elections do not guarantee democracy on their own. On that basis, they are patronizing at best.

In general I agree.

For me the main reason for these "democratic" problems is the lack of an Age of Enlightenment (in the second half of the 18.th century in the Western area). In brief with Kant:

Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposend immaturity.

Imposing democracy doesn't work if there isn't a prepared ideological underground. Look around and you will see were in the world the imposed democracy worked at it best ... or not. How can democray work if there is still a patronage ideology, corruption, elitist behaviour and a strong religious impact, to name only a few points? The countries where imposed democracy doesn't work are in the majority.

[crazyguyinthailand]

An election system doesn't really work here in Thailand for many years, 'cause the rest of Thailand is just either bought or terrorized to vote for their cruel, criminal masters in power,...

Besides, the people in power or even caretaker power can push the reset button as often as they like to manipulate the ABSOLUTE outcome in THEIR FAVOR at ANY time....

This is ELECTION-COLLECTION-STYLE, Thaksin-style

I have been thinking about this dilemma a lot lately. and only when a guy told me: "Democracy does not work for everybody" It all made sence. it just dosnt. and if it does perhaps that word DEMOCRACY shouldnt be so "Westernized" It just dosnt work here or in many other places of the world. epecially not where there is a light year gap between super rich and super greedy combined with very poor uneducated people whos votes can be easy bought. Its sad to see. And even if all the thai people would come to gether one day.

[blazes]

Another farang who don't understand Thai people. Thai people don't want or need any election. Election is a farang culture, not applicable or suitable for Thailand. Unlike farang, Thai people respect and listen to our elder.

What utter tripe. There was a time, up until about 60-80 years ago, when Westerners TOO "respected their elders". However, time has shown Westerners that their elders tended to take them into useless wars and lied to them over and over again. Now, Westerners tend not to respect their elders.

The same will happen to Thailand one day. Everything takes time.....

Also, in Europe, about 500 years ago, people used to respect monks. Today, monks, the few that are left, live in solitude and mind their own business.

[pkspeaker]

The same fascist-racist garbage posted on this thread every time there talk of election:

** Thai's are 'stupid and uneducated' therefore elections won't work.

The vast majority of Thai citizens, including in the north of the country, are literate, they can pickup a newspaper and understand the issues, they can use the internet and post in forums just like you people are doing here, they can watch the news, if they are confused about the issues-they can discuss them with a family member or friend to get a better understanding of what's going on, just like you do.. just because they speak a different language doesn't mean they are stupid, just because they are poor doesn't mean they are illiterate.. this protracted political conflict has INCREASED the average Thai's interest in government policy-so they are more informed than ever.

We have alot of 'stupid' people in America too- we have AfricanAmerican's who think 'white people' should pay them reparations for slavery from hundreds of years ago. We have Hispanics that think California,Nevada,Arizona,and NewMexico should be part of mexico. We have tea party people who insist obama is a foreign born muslim.. Top That!

Thaksin didn't win the election in 2001 because Thai's are stupid, he won because it was the first election in which the people got to elect the entire upper and lower house, with the Asian financial crises in hindsight(which was caused by Thailand) and with Thaksin courting rural voters instead of ignoring them-he won, he went on to cut poverty in half in 4 years, provide near-free healthcare for all Thai's, and provided government backed loans to small businesses.. So he won re-election.

IN the US-Ronald Reagan beat Jimmy Carter in a landslide in 1980, with stagflation and the Iranian hostage mess in hindsite, he went on to get the economy back on track by 1984, so he won the election again by an even bigger landslide , the democrat elite hated him, he was often ridiculed as dumb, in 1988 his party won again.

The democrats decided to re-group , fix what was wrong with their political machine, and they kept at it, by 1992, after 12 long years, they won an election.

In Thailand the democrats/establishment decided to quit playing by the rules, use 'protesters' to sabotage elections and encourage a coup, and every dirty trik you can imagine.. They could be winning elections by now if they had just shown the people some respect and had just worked hard to come up with better policies.. 50 other parties here play by the rules and don not sabotage elections, only the democrats have no integrity.

** 'Populist' policies amount to 'vote buying'

The republicans in the US favor farm subsidies and increased defense spending, hense in their base, the 'red' states, they are popular because that directly helps the economy in those states.. The 'blue' states vote for obamacare, more social welfare, more infrastructure.. same type of politics in european countries.. if there is 'vote-buying' in Thailand, then there is vote-buying in the US and europe.

[blazes]

Germans need to shut up and mind their own business.

Just like Americans should shut up and keep their noses out of Ukraine???????????????????

In other words, no one from Country A has any right, EVER, to comment upon events in Country B?????????

[Thai at Heart]

As to the OP, once again, outsiders are trying to impose their own idealogical society processes on something as complicated as Thai politics.

Absolutely no idea and hence should keep their traps shut on a situation they have little comprehension of.

"One man one vote." - Sure that means something in the West, but to many Thai's that idea is almost as foreign as a McDonald's cheeseburger.

Ridiculous statement, could have been Sondhi talking.

The only thing complicated about Thai politics is all the politicking to goes on behind doors by people with undue influence, much like what happens in "Western" politics . Do we ignore all the past elections that have been held, because, according to you, the Thais are not ready for One Man One vote?

Indeed, if everyone would stick to calling a spade a spade about Thai politics it would be much better.

There is nothing special about Thai politics.

Thaksin is very corrupt.

PTP is above average corrupt

The dems are corrupt. Some dem MPs are above average corrupt. The blokes in PDRC are average corrupt.

ergo, they are all corrupt and not to be trusted to be allowed to take away anyone's vote.

[Fritzz]

Misterwhisper

No reason to get on the high horse as yet.

...jail high-ranking politicians if they're caught breaking the law (no such thing as an "inactive post" in Germany) and

...arrest and sent to jail canvassers and their political masters if they're found buying votes from the electorate

Lets see what names spring to ones mind. According to Wikipedia: Chancellor Kohl (..it was discovered that the CDU had received and kept illegal donations during Kohl's leadership..) Yet the man has never been charged.

...would have no qualms reporting a policeman or government official demanding a bribe from us

WIKIPEDIA claims: .. as well as the Lockheed bribery scandals after a Lockheed lobbyist stated that the corporation had bribed Strauss to the tune of $10 million to obtain a defence contract for the F-104G Starfighters in 1961..; Munich airport still commemorating the high ranking German politician by naming the 2nd biggest German airport Franz Josef Strauss airport. We may have had no qualms reporting him but thats as far as it went.

"...always question how the government spends OUR money and demand answers;"

demand answers, demand an..., dem...

"...have a military that is subjecting itself to the decisions made by the civilian government and does not threaten to carry out a coup d'etat every few years."

That may be true, but it is still engaged in an undeclared/illegal war faraway from any German border as e.g. Afghanistan.

"But hey, we all feel really really oppressed because we cannot wear clothing labels openly. It negatively affects our lives tremendously!"

It may not effect your life, but what does it say about freedom, i.e. democracy? Try ordering certain books or publications on the internet from the not so recent past of the Fatherland (beyond your 69 year history) from the US, UK etc. Then see what happens.

We have embarked on a long journey to democracy and freedom to express ourselves. Once we find ways at home to deal with so called non democratic parties - they may be right wing, they may be left wing - other than VERBOTEN then we know we are on the right track. In order to reach the level of exportability of German democracy we have to go a fair distance yet. In the meantime Thailand LELAX.

Bon voyage,

Fritzz