Are good communication skills important when "teachers" post?

[Brevity]

There were many posts removed from another thread where someone explained their situation about trying to get a better salary for a teaching job. The posts were apparently removed because they were critical of the teacher's poor grammar and general lack of clarity in what he or she was saying.

However, not all the posts were there just to criticize. For example, I focused on how poorly written posts by alleged teachers perpetuates the idea that the great majority of English teachers in Thailand are doing their jobs without any sincerity. I was trying to make a valid point about how this type of post that complains about the remuneration one receives for teaching yet shows poor command of the language they use to teach, doesn't help the respectability of those who actually apply themselves honestly in their job and have taken the time to master the language used or taught in the classroom.

The posts were removed on the grounds that the thread was not an appropriate one for such comments, and that's fair enough, so I thought it was a good idea to give the foreign teachers and others a chance to express their thoughts on how they feel when they read posts that might be harmful to the reputation of those who choose to teach in Thailand, Do you think when the people posting on a forum announce they are teachers, they have a responsibility to use basically correct and clear English?

[chonabot]

No

[MW72]

I read the post in question and if I had children I would not want them to be taught English by the poster. His command of the English language was very poor. Acceptable for someone when English is not their native language bit IMHO not acceptable for an English teacher.

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[chonabot]

But seriously, I suppose it would depend on whether the badly written post was the result of sloppy mistakes, or fundamental errors.

You could also argue that this is a forum, and not a lesson plan/demonstration.

And would removing all of the sloppy English 'teachers' from the Thai schools actually improve their students' chances of learning the language?

If they were replaced by BEd wielding educators with excellent classroomskills, of course this would be a great idea.

But I would suggest that the OP check out the Thai English teachers first and compare those particular skillsets.

[Brevity]

But seriously, I suppose it would depend on whether the badly written post was the result of sloppy mistakes, or fundamental errors.

You could also argue that this is a forum, and not a lesson plan/demonstration.

And would removing all of the sloppy English 'teachers' from the Thai schools actually improve their students' chances of learning the language?

If they were replaced by BEd wielding educators with excellent classroomskills, of course this would be a great idea.

But I would suggest that the OP check out the Thai English teachers first and compare those particular skillsets.

Thanks for jumping in with a more serious reply. Unfortunately, part of the problem with the type of posts we're talking about is that we can't always know if a badly written one was the result of sloppy mistakes or fundamental errors. but I want to remind you that my original post had absolutely NOTHING to do with demonstrating or even discussing lesson plans, nor did it go anywhere near comparing Thai English teachers with their foreign counterparts.

It only asks the question about how well represented foreign English teachers feel when someone claiming to do that job in Thailand displays poor use of the English language when posting here. To visit my main point again, people who choose to teach English in Thailand are often quickly criticized by others as not being sincere in their job, so does it bother people, mainly the sincere teachers in Thailand that "English teachers" will post on here without taking care to make sure they've used good clear communication and therefore possibly perpetuate the idea that almost everyone teaching English in Thailand is just going through the motions?

[chonabot]

I see your point

I suppose it is impossible to avoid becoming tarred with the same brush as the plethora of unqualified 'teachers' currently in action in Thailand.

For myself, I taught for a year at a Government High School with only a BA and a 4 week TEFL course under my belt.

During this time I was annoyed by the general lack of respect afforded to myself and similar 'teachers', both in and out of the school.

By posting sloppily here, I imagine it is simply 'pearls to swine', and as such will result in yet more evidence that we are incompetent numbskulls

May I ask if you teach here, or overseas?

[Brevity]

I see your point

I suppose it is impossible to avoid becoming tarred with the same brush as the plethora of unqualified 'teachers' currently in action in Thailand.

For myself, I taught for a year at a Government High School with only a BA and a 4 week TEFL course under my belt.

During this time I was annoyed by the general lack of respect afforded to myself and similar 'teachers', both in and out of the school.

By posting sloppily here, I imagine it is simply 'pearls to swine', and as such will result in yet more evidence that we are incompetent numbskulls

May I ask if you teach here, or overseas?

Yes, you do see my point. That's clear because the rest of your reply is spot-on for the topic.

I'm retired in Thailand now, but I used to teach here in a private international setting where my colleagues were truly professionals and damn good at what they did, but people couldn't seem to understand that that type of situation actually exists here. We took pride in working hard and intelligently to give our students the best possible chance at success, but as you say, we were usually "tarred" with the same brush as a "University of Khao San Road" graduate who just bought a shiny new diploma. It was a bit depressing, so when I see "English teachers" posting here in a semi-coherent manner it's disheartening. That type of thing really doesn't help our reputations or that of farang in general.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Brevity

[Scott]

On an internet forum, such as this, good communication skills are reasonably important. I don't know that good communication skills can definitively be defined by grammar, spelling and punctuation, however.

Being able to get your point across clearly and succinctly is more important that making sure that your participles aren't dangling.

For some reason, a lot of people seem to think that people posting are teaching English. In fact, many are not. They are teaching subjects, such as Mathematics, Science, Social Studies, Physical Education, Health Education and languages other than English. Personally, I know we have posters who on the forum that are French and teach French, Chinese and teach Chinese.

Yes, it is important to communicate reasonably well.

[SlyAnimal]

When people are teaching, or speaking to students/teachers it really grinds on me to hear/see incorrect grammar/punctuation/spelling, as I think that either the student will also learn this bad English, or alternatively they will think less of the teacher, which then impacts on all farang teachers. I'd never correct someone infront of the students, as it'd cause the teacher to lose face, this goes for both Thai and farang teachers, although I'll sometimes tell them afterwards if it was a bad mistake (Or if it's really really bad, I might give them a hint about checking their spelling etc, even infront of the students, so that they can fix their own mistake).

When people are chatting outside of work, or on internet forums, I'm not as bothered. I still get annoyed to see the errors,

Although I'm not too fussed about the more difficult rules, like it's as opposed to its, even I get those ones confused lol.

Likewise I'm not too fussed about punctuation on an internet forum, even though I usually try to maintain good punctuation myself. I hardly even notice when someone forgets them, in fact the only time I even bother to look is if someone's trying to point out the grammar/spelling mistakes of another poster, in which case I can usually find at least a few examples within most poster's posts.

Mistakes like there and their I simply fail to see how a native English speaker can get these wrong. It's not a situation where "I was feeling lazy to didn't type the comma or apostrophe", or where the words aren't commonly used, thus you've forgotten how to spell them (e.g. I needed spell check to assist me with both comma and apostrophe lol, don't know when I last actually wrote them in full). There and their are just as easy to type, people should know the difference between them.

In general actually, due to spell check, it's relatively easy to spell words correctly on an internet forum, thus I do think native English speakers should spell words correctly, as otherwise spell check will automatically underline the word to tell you it's wrong.

But the important part in what I'm saying, is that I only apply these standards to native English speakers. I don't know who is or isn't a native English speaker though, therefore I am pretty relaxed whenever I see mistakes from people. I likewise don't know who is or isn't an English teacher, as opposed to maths/science etc, and I don't know how much money people are on either. I also don't know whether people are typing from their phone or the computer, I know sometimes with phones people will abbreviate messages or occasionally press the wrong button, and it's damn annoying to correct mistakes from your phone!

Therefore I can't apply any sort of standards or expectations to any of the users on the forums here, as I don't know what their background or situation is. With this in mind, I don't feel at all that poor English on the TV forums reflects badly on farang teachers in general, particularly as to the best of my knowledge no (or very very very few) students browse these forums. If they did, I'd more be worried that they might look at a thread in general or news, and see people flaming each other and thus think that all farang are internet trolls and keyboard warriors lol.

What does annoy me though, is when I see people try to troll other members because of their grammar/punctuation/spelling, because I feel that members should understand the following:

1/ Not everyone is a native English speaker, not everyone is an English teacher and not everyone is posting from their computer. Also not everyone is necessarily sober while posting lol.

2/ Bringing up someone's spelling/grammar/punctuation takes a topic off topic, and I'd rather discuss the topic than listen to someone moan about poor grammar.

3/ Comments regarding someone's grammar/spelling/punctuation usually also involve a "dig" at the OP. In my book, that's flaming, trolling or a personal insult, I'm not sure which category fits it best, as all differ in their severity. However either way, it's not polite, in fact it's actually a little bit rude, and it inevitably ends up taking the topic, off topic.

Which is why Scott and I usually remove any posts which are referencing someone's grammar/punctuation/spelling (I should just say grammar lol, it's a pain to type all 3 each time), as it takes the thread off topic (And if someone takes the trolls bait, can end up in name calling, which would give us teachers an even worse reputation than what simply having bad grammar would!!).

*Also as something else I just thought of as something else to consider. In different countries/areas, the grammar rules are sometimes slightly different. There are simply some phrases which sound "right" but in other countries/areas would be blatantly wrong. We can say that English grammar is defined by some big book published by Oxford or Cambridge, but every language is alive and constantly updating itself. Thus we can't be too harsh on people for small mistakes, even if we know that they're a native English speaking English teacher typing from their computer while not intoxicated.

[healthbkkbkk]

Are you really asking if an English Teacher should have a mastery of the English Language?

[StefanBBK]

Please allow me to express my opinion.

To me there is no question. An English teacher should be a master of the language.

I got very annoyed when I saw misspelled or grammatically wrong posters made by the English teachers at my daughters former school. Things like "We love this games!" Or not OK for an expensive private school. (Satit Patana)

I personally despise the idea that every native speaker can become an English teacher with passing a 4 week course.

Get real, it is the education of our children. So yes, I would expect any teacher to be close to perfect in their respective field.

Same goes by the way for all professions, not only teachers.

I have no doubt that there are plenty good English teachers around here. I do have greatest respect to those who are.

No idea about the original post, but I also agree that a forum is not a spelling contest. I know myself that between small mobile keyboards and automatic spellchecker the most obscure sentences can come out.

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[Brevity]

Some interesting replies and nice that the moderators took some time to explain their stance on comments directed at poor English language usage in this forum.

I agree that comments of an overly pedantic nature, criticizing the wrong "there/their/they're" or worrying about "it's vs its" are not helpful. I don't know how many times I've seen adjectives and other parts of speech turned into infinitive verbs, so to speak, when people type things like " to big" or "to much", rather than "too big" and "too much", but I never go gunning for those people.

I'm concerned when people announce in their post that they are a teacher and the writing gets to a point of being so sloppy that we have to start guessing at the intended meaning, or when there are so many grammar and other related errors present it's just plain embarrassing to be associated with these types of "teachers". Certainly, if they're English teachers, they should be held to maintain very high standards of English, but even if they're teaching other subjects, clear and effective communication is important in their jobs and should be so much a part of their nature that when posting on forums, proper language in used.

As for posts made using devices other than those with a standard keyboard, I can't relate very well because I don't have a tablet or a smart phone. I still use an old candy bar style phone and a laptop, but one of the first things I had to do when typing text in an SMS on my phone was to turn off the ridiculous "intuitive" mode where it anticipated what I wanted to type. It was rarely correct and wasted a lot of time. Perhaps the same is true with the more modern devices and people would be better off with these types of editing assistants turned off.

[zeichen]

I will wager a lot that if I went through the OP's posts more than quickly skimming, I would find many errors. You are in fact a long winded writer. Who has no conservation of words.

I find it absolutely annoying whe people criticize others constantly about their ability to teach based on what they post on an open forum. My guess is that there are a lot of insecure teachers out there. A mastery of the language actually isn't necessary to teach it. A mastery of any subject isn't necessary as a teacher. It is important to know how students learn foreign languages. You also need to know many different effective approaches to teach the many language skills. Writing is only one skill. Though, it is my favorite subject and my career for many years, I do realize that most EFL teachers here focus on oral communication.

There are many excellent oral communicative teachers that aren't educated or that intelligent in general. Being an effective teacher and being an expert in the field are not synonymous.

[Brevity]

I will wager a lot that if I went through the OP's posts more than quickly skimming, I would find many errors. You are in fact a long winded writer. Who has no conservation of words.

I find it absolutely annoying whe people criticize others constantly about their ability to teach based on what they post on an open forum. My guess is that there are a lot of insecure teachers out there. A mastery of the language actually isn't necessary to teach it. A mastery of any subject isn't necessary as a teacher. It is important to know how students learn foreign languages. You also need to know many different effective approaches to teach the many language skills. Writing is only one skill. Though, it is my favorite subject and my career for many years, I do realize that most EFL teachers here focus on oral communication.

There are many excellent oral communicative teachers that aren't educated or that intelligent in general. Being an effective teacher and being an expert in the field are not synonymous.

I'm sorry that you fell so unhappy with this thread and have chosen to make a personal attack, but if you've read and understood the posts, you will see that it's not a matter of criticizing anybody. It's only a question of how import we perceive good language skills by teachers when they publicly express themselves in writing, whether in a forum or other more formal places. Of course, writing is only one skill and the most difficult one for all people to master - not just 2nd language speakers.

As for being long-winded and not using words in an efficient manner, with no conservation, as you put it, that's certainly subjective, but I feel it's better to be clear using well-constructed phrases than to have people guessing about the exact meaning of what's said.

I beg you to go through my posts with a fine-tooth comb and report back to us with that long list of terrible grammar errors you hope and expect to find. I would never claim to be perfect in any aspect of my life and would be very interested to see your list.

[Scott]

Let's keep personal comments to a minimum please. Please also note the OP is about communication skills with teachers, not only English teachers.

[culicine]

Are you really asking if an English Teacher should have a mastery of the English Language?

Most english teachers don't, even western, native speaking qualified ones. I have a PhD in biology but that in no way means I have mastery in my subject. Competent, ok, but by no stretch have I mastered the subject. I'd be far more likely to employ a TEFL'er who can motivate students to learn, rather than a dull master of their subject.

[brucetefl]

People have different skill sets. I believe many would consider me fairly well educated with a BA and Masters from respected US universities. I am also a terrible proof reader and have a difficult time seeing errors that for most people are obvious--my brain just does not notice them.

And this is a forum. I generally rush through my post because its not exactly the top priority. And I make many spelling errors and typos. Or I may chance some of the content and unintentionally create a grammar error.

And I do not really care that much. Its a FORUM.

[Brevity]

People have different skill sets. I believe many would consider me fairly well educated with a BA and Masters from respected US universities. I am also a terrible proof reader and have a difficult time seeing errors that for most people are obvious--my brain just does not notice them.

And this is a forum. I generally rush through my post because its not exactly the top priority. And I make many spelling errors and typos. Or I may chance some of the content and unintentionally create a grammar error.

And I do not really care that much. Its a FORUM.

Thanks for your thoughtful input, Bruce.

I think many people approach it the same way, and that relates to the point of my original post. We constantly hear (English) teachers in Thailand being ridiculed and accused of being insincere, so when people read poorly or sloppily composed posts written by people who have declared themselves teachers, it only reinforces that assumption.

As you're the owner of an English teacher training franchise, I would think that doing what you can to give the people you collect money from some respectability would be important. There are certainly some clowns that graduate from your courses who you know are probably here for all the wrong reasons, but the majority who pay fees to you are sincere and would likely appreciate entering the field of English teaching in Thailand without being automatically branded as an insincere jerk. As I said in a previous post, there are many of us who have done our jobs with genuine sincerity, and being tarred with the same nasty little brush as those who haven't is disheartening, so perhaps a little more care taken by teachers when posting might help.

[brucetefl]

This is just my opinion, but the people who care and matter in this discussion probably are not reading these forums. And anyone who reads too much into the quality of my education and mastery of English based upon my posts here is probably not someone I am worried about impressing.

[Brevity]

This is just my opinion, but the people who care and matter in this discussion probably are not reading these forums. And anyone who reads too much into the quality of my education and mastery of English based upon my posts here is probably not someone I am worried about impressing.

Interesting, Bruce.

Who, in your opinion, are the people that care and matter, and why wouldn't they be reading this forum?

If I was thinking about coming to Thailand to take a teacher training course, I would want to get some information about what to expect, and this forum, especially with a section devoted entirely to teaching in Thailand, would probably be high on my list as a good source. Perhaps when I saw that teachers were ridiculed and not respected in Thailand, I would have second thoughts and might decide to go to another country where English teaching isn't thought to be such a joke. I may also start to piece it together that the salary offered in some situations is so terribly low because of the attitude that farang teachers are thought to be just a bunch of sexpats and drifters.

I find it strange that a person who runs an English teacher training company would seem to be so uncaring about the reputation of teachers here.

[Scott]

It is fairly obvious that the OP has opened this topic for the purpose of trolling. The mission has been accomplished, so I will close the topic.