Off-topic, baiting and inflammatory post along with replies have been deleted.

I dont hate the US, only the gun control..............or rather lack of it.

Have you ever tried to buy a gun in the US?

Obviously not.

Which one of the 20,000 gun control laws would have prevented these murders by STABBING and Gun fire deaths?

3 stabbed to death, 4 shot to death, including the instigator.

Yet the anti-gun yahoos are already dancing in the blood of the dead in an attempt to push their misguided anti-gun laws on the books.

Why no calls for stricter knife laws?

There's a movie I saw once about a Country where only the military and police were allowed to have guns. It was really educational. It was called "Schindler's List". I think you could still get it on Netflix.

Im blessed to have been born and raised in the UK where Im fortunate enough to have lived the 61 years of my life without the thought of owning a gun ever entering my head! Still In Britain today, only the military are allowed to have guns plus a small (mostly) strictly controlled number of police officers. And its real life in Britain! Not a semi-delusional fictional Hollywood-movie created gun-fest world where most US citizens sadly seem to dwell. Aldous Huxley once said that everyone is trying to be their favourite character in fiction. Nothing personal, but in the US this seems to mean that men are culturally pressurised to cultivate a movie hero's arrogance and ego, and must own a gun or 2 or 3 or 4. When will y'all wake up and see that Hollywood has been just as effective on 'you guys' as the nazi propaganda was on the Germans.

Sorry to burst your bubble of bliss concerning the safety of the UK with their stringent gun control.....

The following is from a paper presented in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy (Attached) properly foot noted and this is an analysis of most data available through 2008::

To gun control advocates, England, the cradle

of our liberties, was a nation made so peaceful by strict gun

control that its police did not even need to carry guns. The

United States, it was argued, could attain such a desirable

situation by radically reducing gun ownership, preferably by

banning and confiscating handguns.

The results discussed earlier contradict those expectations. On

the one hand, despite constant and substantially increasing gun

ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions

in criminal violence in the 1990s. On the other hand, the

same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and

dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response

was ever‐more drastic gun control including, eventually, banning

and confiscating all handguns and many types of long guns.22

Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by

2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the

developed world’s most violence‐ridden nations.

This is one of the classic myths peddled by the gun lobby.

It's a classic case of cherry-picking data, variations in crime definitions between the UK and USA, and wilful poor maths.

Here's the chapter and verse:

http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/

The claim that violent crime in the UK rose as a direct result of the implementation of sensible gun laws just does not stack up . The 2 key pieces of legislation were the banning of all semi-automatic weapons in the wake of the Hungerford Massacre in 1988 (which had only a limited impact due to the relatively small numbers of such weapons being owned), and the more significant 1997 Firearms Amendment Act that banned all handguns and saw 162,000 handguns handed in by the public. And what happened to the rate of violent crime post 1997...?

Almost as silly as this attempted link:

What a bunch of hooey.

The NRA is nothing more than its voluntary, dues paying, private sector members.

The reason that the politicians won't go against the NRA is at least two fold. There are 5 million member voters backing them up, and even without the NRA there are many citizens and members of congress who agree with the NRA. Maybe 100 million citizens who own guns.

It's not the NRA. It's the people. Without the people there wouldn't be an NRA.

America has a gun culture. Get over it. Many members of congress would vote pro-gun based on their own beliefs even in the absence of an NRA.

If congress wants to get re-elected they'd better not vote anti gun, and that's the voters speaking.

And that's why this particular well of sympathy/concern has run dry when it comes to gun crime in the USA. If that's the way you want it, this is what will happen over and over again until enough people find it intolerable. Until that day you are exercising your rights and freedoms at a cost you feel small enough to bear.

Children used to be put up chimneys to clean them, women/black people were denied votes, gay people denied the right to marry etc etc At some stage a society decides to change what have been long accepted norms, until that day comes there will be countless victims. Live in the US... accept the fact that guns are a part of life, live in LOS and accept the fact that the rule of law is a fantasy...every paradise has its mosquito!

"Children used to be put up chimneys to clean them, women/black people were denied votes, gay people denied the right to marry etc etc At some stage a society decides to change what have been long accepted norms, until that day comes there will be countless victims. Live in the US... accept the fact that guns are a part of life, live in LOS and accept the fact that the rule of law is a fantasy...every paradise has its mosquito!"

And this has what to do with guns or securing a nation by the people against governments?

You think the "well has run dry?"

The well has run dry in W. Europe where you pansies are stripped of freedom of speech and have lost the sovereignty of your nations and stand haplessly by and can only watch and complain. W. Europe has been fairly peaceful since WWII but it won't always be and when something bad happens you are defenseless.

America has never even signed any of the important UN treaties and is therefore not even accountable to the UN. The concept of letting a EU tell it what to do in any way is outrageous and will never happen.

I have 100 million citizens with 300 million guns and ammunition who will someday teach you something about getting freedoms back if someone tries to take them - foreign or domestic.

THAT MAKES America the safest place to be in the world right now. It's you W. Europeans - the members of the EU who are in real danger and defenseless.

But you'll never understand that until it's too late because you don't remember history. Neither did the Jews in Germany when they gave up their guns.

1. "Children used to be put up chimneys to clean them, women/black people were denied votes, gay people denied the right to marry etc etc At some stage a society decides to change what have been long accepted norms, until that day comes there will be countless victims. Live in the US... accept the fact that guns are a part of life, live in LOS and accept the fact that the rule of law is a fantasy...every paradise has its mosquito!"

And this has what to do with guns or securing a nation by the people against governments?

I will spell it out for you....at the moment the US tolerates and permits the widespread ownership of weapons and is prepared to take the consequences in terms of casualties. At some stage this long accepted cultural norm might (or might not) change, as did the view re child labour, female suffrage etc. Guns are a part of the US, nowhere is perfect but having lived there, worked there, fought alongside Americans and married an American, I know the great aspects of your country but recognize that nowhere is perfect.

2. The well has run dry in W. Europe where you pansies are stripped of freedom of speech and have lost the sovereignty of your nations and stand haplessly by and can only watch and complain. W. Europe has been fairly peaceful since WWII but it won't always be and when something bad happens you are defenseless.

Ignoring the childish label, the story re freedom of speech is not quite so simple. Even before all the recent NSA leaks the US ranked 33rd in Global Freedom of the Press and the UK was 30th. Now in the most recent rankings the UK has slipped to 33rd and the US has plunged to 46th.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-stearns/us-plummets-in-global-pre_b_4770182.html

As with the united states, membership of a larger economic/political entity obviously involves some loss of outright sovereignity but also has its advantages. At least Europe has not yet seen a war to prevent states from seceeding from the union....

W. Europe has been very peaceful since our fathers fought there way across NW Europe, thank you very much. The only upsets have involved insurgencies such as the PIRA, partially funded by gullible US citizens, and equipped taking advantage of US gun laws. The fact that a friend of mine was murdered by a US funded and supplied M60 is not something I hold against your country. That's the lot of the soldier.

The chance of outright conventional warfare in W.Europe or indeed the US is about as likely as me becoming Pope...! Anyway that's why countries have a professional military to safeguard the security of a nation. Far preferable to an over-armed, under-trained civilian rabble with various ideas of who or what constitutes a threat. Don't need too many McVeighs.

3. America has never even signed any of the important UN treaties and is therefore not even accountable to the UN. The concept of letting a EU tell it what to do in any way is outrageous and will never happen.

The US has actually signed quite a few significant UN treaties....it's the ratification that rarely happens, but I am being nitpicky. Not sure why you are concerned about the US being told what to do by the EU, but European laws obviously apply to US citizens and companies.

4. I have 100 million citizens with 300 million guns and ammunition who will someday teach you something about getting freedoms back if someone tries to take them - foreign or domestic.

Thanks for the offer, but I have had more than enough military training and am quite accustomed to dealing with both domestic and international threats. The young guys doing the job today are even better equipped and trained, but if we ever need the help of the likes of the Michigan Militia or Branch Dravidians we know who to call...

5. THAT MAKES America the safest place to be in the world right now. It's you W. Europeans - the members of the EU who are in real danger and defenseless.

Agreed parts of the US are amazingly safe, but national stats don't paint quite such a rosy picture.

Murder rate in US for 2012 (source FBI Uniform Crime Report) 14,173 deaths or 4.8/100,000 head of population

Murder rate in UK for 2012 (source ONS) 551 deaths or 0.97/100,000

And if you are tempted to trot out the old canard about violent crime in the UK outstripping the US have a look at this:

http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/

6. But you'll never understand that until it's too late because you don't remember history. Neither did the Jews in Germany when they gave up their guns.

Funnily enough most educated Europeans have a pretty good grasp of history (and geography) compared to many others. A long history of warfare, invasions and occupations tends to concentrate the mind on those lessons rather than just banking on exceptionalism.

Having a decent grounding in history means that I am able to assess the validity of claims about gun control and the onset of the Holocaust. Would an armed response by a group consisting of less than 1% of the German population to Kristellnacht have helped or exacerbated the situation? Also could you provide figures for how many guns were actually seized from “non-Aryan” homes. Was the disarmament of Jews a largely symbolic act, or was a previously armed group rendered impotent by the 1938 law? Sounds like your claims are based on the poorly supported chain email that did the rounds a few years ago, see below:

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=25333

Meanwhile perhaps we should get our condolences ready for the next killing spree in the USA by a messed up individual able to access guns. Tragically it probably won't be a long wait....

Yes, it is an unfortunate fact that those who wish to do so will always be able to get guns illegally; but proper gun control will go a long way to stop incidents like this from happening.

You nailed the ENTIRE ISSUE with this one sentence. It won't be popular with the mentally ill gun lobbyists as they are like rabbits in a spot light..... blinded & not very intelligent.

We can only hope and pray that the gun lobbyists are the ones that start loosing their own children in the inevitable future massacres..... surely any person scooping up their own child's brains off the pavement would have to realise there's a better way.

I too am thankful that my home country was smart enough to put intelligent gun control measures in place, years ago. Well done Johnny Howard, well done !

And I'm thankful that our ancestors grew a set of balls, and had the foresight to fight for it's freedom. By all means, let's harass the NRA and other legal gun owners, and not focus on the criminals. Sure, makes perfect sense.

Yes, it is an unfortunate fact that those who wish to do so will always be able to get guns illegally; but proper gun control will go a long way to stop incidents like this from happening.

You nailed the ENTIRE ISSUE with this one sentence. It won't be popular with the mentally ill gun lobbyists as they are like rabbits in a spot light..... blinded & not very intelligent.

We can only hope and pray that the gun lobbyists are the ones that start loosing their own children in the inevitable future massacres..... surely any person scooping up their own child's brains off the pavement would have to realise there's a better way.

I too am thankful that my home country was smart enough to put intelligent gun control measures in place, years ago. Well done Johnny Howard, well done !

And I'm thankful that our ancestors grew a set of balls, and had the foresight to fight for it's freedom. By all means, let's harass the NRA and other legal gun owners, and not focus on the criminals. Sure, makes perfect sense.

Yes , good on your ancestors for doing what they did decades ago, longer. Times have changed, there is no war within your own country with the government.....welcome to 2014.

Perhaps if the police weren't so busy cleaning up the remains and mess left behind by overly lax gun control measures, they'd be able to spend more time seeking out those,who are illegally obtaining weapons. As it stands at the present time, it's a free for all. Haven't you seen the news. Are your children and their children really safe.

Please don't give me one of those lines about protecting yourself with your gun bootie, that's a farce, virtually EVERYTIME there's trouble the police have to come in and deal with it, while the gun lobiests run screaming with their hands in the air....."The targets shooting back at us, we only know how to shoot at defenceless animals and paper targets. We can talk the talk, but that's about it, we're only NRA members, we have rights, we pay taxes, let the police sort this out for us.". THATS reality, grab a slice

Yes, it is an unfortunate fact that those who wish to do so will always be able to get guns illegally; but proper gun control will go a long way to stop incidents like this from happening.

You nailed the ENTIRE ISSUE with this one sentence. It won't be popular with the mentally ill gun lobbyists as they are like rabbits in a spot light..... blinded & not very intelligent.

We can only hope and pray that the gun lobbyists are the ones that start loosing their own children in the inevitable future massacres..... surely any person scooping up their own child's brains off the pavement would have to realise there's a better way.

I too am thankful that my home country was smart enough to put intelligent gun control measures in place, years ago. Well done Johnny Howard, well done !

And I'm thankful that our ancestors grew a set of balls, and had the foresight to fight for it's freedom. By all means, let's harass the NRA and other legal gun owners, and not focus on the criminals. Sure, makes perfect sense.

Yes , good on your ancestors for doing what they did decades ago, longer. Times have changed, there is no war within your own country with the government.....welcome to 2014.

Perhaps if the police weren't so busy cleaning up the remains and mess left behind by overly lax gun control measures, they'd be able to spend more time seeking out those,who are illegally obtaining weapons. As it stands at the present time, it's a free for all. Haven't you seen the news. Are your children and their children really safe.

Please don't give me one of those lines about protecting yourself with your gun bootie, that's a farce, virtually EVERYTIME there's trouble the police have to come in and deal with it, while the gun lobiests run screaming with their hands in the air....."The targets shooting back at us, we only know how to shoot at defenceless animals and paper targets. We can talk the talk, but that's about it, we're only NRA members, we have rights, we pay taxes, let the police sort this out for us.". THATS reality, grab a slice

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

Re: Your second paragraph. You are not re-inventing the wheel here, it's all been done before. There's a place a lot more advanced, both socially and responsibility wise, it's called Australia. It's okay, you are welcome to study what's been achieved down there and copy it. Heck they'll even come over and show you how to do it. While your at it they could also send over their banking people, help you tidy us your dodgy banking system

Finally, please stay with the program, I'm not suggesting removal of all weapons from the people, just certain types and the sheer volume of them.

As for the illegal weapons, when the Police can stop wasting time, hosing down the place and cleaning up all the bodies, they can head out and proactively remove the illegal weapons. We do that every day in Australia too, works a treat. Of course there will always be illegal weapons around but with less to go around there's less chance of a whack job getting his hands on a high powered semi auto or worse still a small discrete semi automatic pistol/hand gun.

Anyway, if might pay you to open your map and see what the rest of the world is doing.....it would seem that not everywhere else is stuck in the 1700-1900's.

USA = Hub of school house shootings !

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

I forgot to ask you beach guy. You do realise that the USA isn't in it's own vacume ? The laws of gravity still apply in that region. Haven't been to the states for several years (bout 8) but I'm pretty sure they haven't broken away from the rest of the planet and started spinning in the opposite direction. Sure the people are different, but that's the case everywhere. As for the lay of the land and rural areas, you will find the Australians have some of e most remote communities on the planet, they have the largest farm in the world and whilst they don't have bears, they have many nasties that require shooting from time to time...so most of the arguments from the pro gun crew here are mute.

The only difference is the attitude. There's a certain pungent self righteous way of thinking amongst some of the citizens there. They've been shown a better way but they can't see through their own smoke screen and nonesense.

Anyway, enjoy your next slaughter, must only be a few hours away . You could almost set your watch by it

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

Re: Your second paragraph. You are not re-inventing the wheel here, it's all been done before. There's a place a lot more advanced, both socially and responsibility wise, it's called Australia. It's okay, you are welcome to study what's been achieved down there and copy it. Heck they'll even come over and show you how to do it. While your at it they could also send over their banking people, help you tidy us your dodgy banking system

Finally, please stay with the program, I'm not suggesting removal of all weapons from the people, just certain types and the sheer volume of them.

As for the illegal weapons, when the Police can stop wasting time, hosing down the place and cleaning up all the bodies, they can head out and proactively remove the illegal weapons. We do that every day in Australia too, works a treat. Of course there will always be illegal weapons around but with less to go around there's less chance of a whack job getting his hands on a high powered semi auto or worse still a small discrete semi automatic pistol/hand gun.

Anyway, if might pay you to open your map and see what the rest of the world is doing.....it would seem that not everywhere else is stuck in the 1700-1900's.

USA = Hub of school house shootings !

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

You seem to have forgotten, or never knew, that schools in all the school shootings were declared "gun free" zones.

Concerned citizens carrying legally obtained personal weapons would not have had their weapons readily available since they are generally law abiding citizens.

At schools, theaters and shopping malls, the bad guys and the police are normally the only ones that have weapons at hand. Even the US Navy Yard and Ft. Hood were "gun free" zones.

There are stories all over the internet of citizens defending themselves with concealed or open carry weapons. Following is an article that you might find interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Often Do We Use Guns in Self-Defense?

By Paul Barrett December 27, 2012

...and the summation from the article...

What’s the upshot?

1. We don’t know exactly how frequently defensive gun use occurs.

2. A conservative estimate of the order of magnitude is tens of thousands of times a year; 100,000 is not a wild gun-nut fantasy.

3. Many gun owners (I am not one, but I know plenty) focus not on statistical probabilities, but on a worst-case scenario: They’re in trouble, and they want a fighting chance.

4. DGU does not answer any questions in this debate, but it’s a factor that deserves attention.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-27/how-often-do-we-use-guns-in-self-defense

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

Google is your friend.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

http://blog.metrotrends.org/2013/12/criminals-guns/

Thanks; both links show that making it more difficult to obtain firearms legally would also make it more difficult to obtain them illegally!

I hate using 'Americans' when referring to US citizens as it includes South America and Canada. We need another term to replace the outdated term 'Yanks' that our parents used to use in the UK.

Anyway..............for want of a better term.............

The Yanks LOVE their guns, LITERALLY! Guns are like a drug or a sexual fetish for them. For some, Im sure, Its gun in one hand and jerkin off with the other whilst watching the TV and movie shoot outs!

But seriously....Why?................I must repeat the gist of my previous post............In US movie obsessed culture, the gun ' fix', the gun 'fetish', is constantly fed by Hollywood churning out more and more gun-filled blood and guts trash. Both at the 'Tarantino' end masquerading as 'Art' and, at the other end with all the ever TV repeated crappy failed 'B' movies such as we get on TV in Thailand. These latter are the rubbish ones that get exported to the rest of the World and give, especially the developing World, such a false impression and warped view of what 'Western' culture is, and what Western values are.

I believe the predominant stereotypical US white male role model is still John Wayne morphing thru Rambo into Bruce Willis. And, of course, you must add in the whacko Jack Nicholson factor. Another important influence in the mix is a media obsession, in the UK too, with 'The News'. This means that we hear almost instantly of every gruesome crime or event, big and small, committed anywhere in any town or city or country. Most of this we just do not need to know, and it does nothing but nurture a climate of fear (and depression). Wasnt it the 'Fear' factor that Michael Moore, in 'Bowling for Columbine', concluded was the differing factor between the cultures of the US and Canada which have/had similar liberal gun ownership laws, and which possibly explains the phenomenally higher homicide rate in the US than Canada?

I dont mean to insult US Americans in any way, but I sincerely believe the above to be the core problem, and I really dont know how it can be solved. I do know, however, that I never really began to understand my own British culture, which is far from perfect, until spending an extended time travelling abroad. In fact I dont think we can understand anything while we are actually caught up in it and experiencing it. I believe we need to get outside of our own culture and its pervasive daily influence on us and take a look at it objectively before we have any hope of gaining some insight into it or understanding its strengths and weaknesses. Sadly, most US Americans dont ever travel outside of the US so never ever see the wood from the trees. And, scarily, most things they do know about the outside World come thru 'Fox News'.

"God Bless America!.......The Greatest nation in the World!!!"

Thanks; both links show that making it more difficult to obtain firearms legally would also make it more difficult to obtain them illegally!

Problem is, the daft buggers are doing it in reverse.

Check out what this whacko just signed in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/04/23/what-georgias-expansive-new-pro-gun-law-does/

It would be easier to help an alcoholic in denial than these people.

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

Re: Your second paragraph. You are not re-inventing the wheel here, it's all been done before. There's a place a lot more advanced, both socially and responsibility wise, it's called Australia. It's okay, you are welcome to study what's been achieved down there and copy it. Heck they'll even come over and show you how to do it. While your at it they could also send over their banking people, help you tidy us your dodgy banking system

Finally, please stay with the program, I'm not suggesting removal of all weapons from the people, just certain types and the sheer volume of them.

As for the illegal weapons, when the Police can stop wasting time, hosing down the place and cleaning up all the bodies, they can head out and proactively remove the illegal weapons. We do that every day in Australia too, works a treat. Of course there will always be illegal weapons around but with less to go around there's less chance of a whack job getting his hands on a high powered semi auto or worse still a small discrete semi automatic pistol/hand gun.

Anyway, if might pay you to open your map and see what the rest of the world is doing.....it would seem that not everywhere else is stuck in the 1700-1900's.

USA = Hub of school house shootings !

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

You seem to have forgotten, or never knew, that schools in all the school shootings were declared "gun free" zones.

Concerned citizens carrying legally obtained personal weapons would not have had their weapons readily available since they are generally law abiding citizens.

At schools, theaters and shopping malls, the bad guys and the police are normally the only ones that have weapons at hand. Even the US Navy Yard and Ft. Hood were "gun free" zones.

There are stories all over the internet of citizens defending themselves with concealed or open carry weapons. Following is an article that you might find interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How Often Do We Use Guns in Self-Defense?

By Paul Barrett December 27, 2012

...and the summation from the article...

Whats the upshot?

1. We dont know exactly how frequently defensive gun use occurs.

2. A conservative estimate of the order of magnitude is tens of thousands of times a year; 100,000 is not a wild gun-nut fantasy.

3. Many gun owners (I am not one, but I know plenty) focus not on statistical probabilities, but on a worst-case scenario: Theyre in trouble, and they want a fighting chance.

4. DGU does not answer any questions in this debate, but its a factor that deserves attention.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-27/how-often-do-we-use-guns-in-self-defense

chuckd,

Your effort deserves a response typed out on a keyboard, not on this ithing. another time.

Thanks; both links show that making it more difficult to obtain firearms legally would also make it more difficult to obtain them illegally!

Problem is, the daft buggers are doing it in reverse.

Check out what this whacko just signed in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/04/23/what-georgias-expansive-new-pro-gun-law-does/

It would be easier to help an alcoholic in denial than these people.

From the comments section on that page

max p

4/27/2014 7:46 AM GMT

......what could possibly go wrong by allowing guns in bars? Alcohol and firearms go together like biscuits and gravy. I'm sure the police will greatly appreciate all the "help" they'll now be getting. And the state can still stop Grandpa from driving when he has dementia but just how are they going to stop him from continuing to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights regardless of his mental condition ?

I assume that in Georgia it is illegal to drive a car if you are drunk or suffer from dementia; but it seems it is now legal to carry a gun when you are either, or even both!

Thanks; both links show that making it more difficult to obtain firearms legally would also make it more difficult to obtain them illegally!

Problem is, the daft buggers are doing it in reverse.

Check out what this whacko just signed in.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/04/23/what-georgias-expansive-new-pro-gun-law-does/

It would be easier to help an alcoholic in denial than these people.

From the comments section on that page

max p

4/27/2014 7:46 AM GMT

......what could possibly go wrong by allowing guns in bars? Alcohol and firearms go together like biscuits and gravy. I'm sure the police will greatly appreciate all the "help" they'll now be getting. And the state can still stop Grandpa from driving when he has dementia but just how are they going to stop him from continuing to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights regardless of his mental condition ?

I assume that in Georgia it is illegal to drive a car if you are drunk or suffer from dementia; but it seems it is now legal to carry a gun when you are either, or even both!

Mate,

I just don't get it.

Exactly what I was thinking. Now these dullards want to throw alcohol into the mix. I mean as a police officer I would never have thought of picking my firearm up if I'd been drinking, yet these guys are taking their shooters to a bar.

Stupid is as stupid does.

The more I read, the more I think I'll give my next tour there, the miss. And the Darwin Award for 2014 goes to Georgia.

This crazy Lek kreung couldn't get a girlfriend in the U.S because they found him unattractive. But in Thailand he would be a movie star with 10 mia nois.

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

All of the above, plus individual home owners. But, if you guys were as knowledgeable as you think you are, I wouldn't have to tell you that. But, don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reports, from the FBI, other law enforcement agencies as well as the media.

Wrong, that's not reality, you either haven't been to the U.S. or it has been a long time. Better to comment on something you have knowledge of, not an inaccurate opinion. I don't bother to keep a loaded weapon around when I visit. But, my stepfather successfully defended himself and my mother during an armed robbery attempt of their store, one dead, the other two in jail. She got injured, but the police credit his actions with saving their lives. Police response times vary, it can be up to an hour in Detroit, fortunately most places aren't that bad, but 20-30 minutes probably isn't uncommon in rural and suburban areas . Perhaps you suggest they call a timeout with the criminals, and hope they will wait for the police to show before they do anything?

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore.

If you're concerned about loose and unaccounted for weapons, perhaps you should check into Obama and Holder's, Fast and Furious program.

Re: Your first paragraph. I'm not ruling out that there are examples, such as the one you outline, but what I a suggesting is that they are a lot rarer than you might think. How many of these school shootings have been resolved without the assistance of the brave Police and Deputy departments? I'll help you out. None.

Re: Your second paragraph. You are not re-inventing the wheel here, it's all been done before. There's a place a lot more advanced, both socially and responsibility wise, it's called Australia. It's okay, you are welcome to study what's been achieved down there and copy it. Heck they'll even come over and show you how to do it. While your at it they could also send over their banking people, help you tidy us your dodgy banking system

Finally, please stay with the program, I'm not suggesting removal of all weapons from the people, just certain types and the sheer volume of them.

As for the illegal weapons, when the Police can stop wasting time, hosing down the place and cleaning up all the bodies, they can head out and proactively remove the illegal weapons. We do that every day in Australia too, works a treat. Of course there will always be illegal weapons around but with less to go around there's less chance of a whack job getting his hands on a high powered semi auto or worse still a small discrete semi automatic pistol/hand gun.

Anyway, if might pay you to open your map and see what the rest of the world is doing.....it would seem that not everywhere else is stuck in the 1700-1900's.

USA = Hub of school house shootings !

No offense, but I've been to Australia and I didn't see anything there that made me want to stay any length of time. I've lived several places outside the U.S. the past 15 years, so I do have an idea of how some of the world operates. Everything else I have written, is based on information from reports from the FBI and other police agencies. Again you appear ignorant of those facts, and chose to form your opinions based on media reports only.

As to my opinion, the gun violence is only a symptom of a larger social and cultural problem. Over the past generation or two, the U.S. has created an entitlement society that has little regard for accountability, responsibility, or the consequences for their actions. If we are going to improve the situation, we need to start there, not by putting a bandage on the problem, and harassing the law abiding gun owners.

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

All of the above, plus individual home owners. But, if you guys were as knowledgeable as you think you are, I wouldn't have to tell you that. But, don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reports, from the FBI, other law enforcement agencies as well as the media.

Point missed; completely.

<snip>

As to my opinion, the gun violence is only a symptom of a larger social and cultural problem. Over the past generation or two, the U.S. has created an entitlement society that has little regard for accountability, responsibility, or the consequences for their actions. If we are going to improve the situation, we need to start there, not by putting a bandage on the problem, and harassing the law abiding gun owners.

I understand what you mean; we are developing similar problems on this side of the pond; unfortunately.

But what we don't have is regular incidents of nutters driving about using their legally obtained guns to indiscriminately shoot and kill people.

Yes, one should treat the disease, not the symptoms. But, in the context of this topic, widespread legal gun ownership is not a symptom, it's the disease.

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

All of the above, plus individual home owners. But, if you guys were as knowledgeable as you think you are, I wouldn't have to tell you that. But, don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reports, from the FBI, other law enforcement agencies as well as the media.

Point missed; completely.

Why, I just stated the facts. Apparently you have a problem with the truth?

<snip>

As to lax gun control laws, the criminals aren't going to obey the law anyway, it's pretty well known that many, if not most of the crimes are committed with stolen weapons, no need for registration when you are buying out of a crack house or the trunk of a car. But, that is another fact you, and others choose to ignore...........

So, tell us; from whom are these criminals stealing their weapons?

Are they breaking into police , army, etc. armouries to steal them; or are they stealing their guns from individuals and gun shops who legally own them?

All of the above, plus individual home owners. But, if you guys were as knowledgeable as you think you are, I wouldn't have to tell you that. But, don't take my word for it, there are plenty of reports, from the FBI, other law enforcement agencies as well as the media.

Point missed; completely.

.

And you might have missed my point about Google being your friend

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATF report: 190,000 firearms lost or stolen in 2012

Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY 6:21 p.m. EDT June 17, 2013

WASHINGTON — Slightly more than 190,000 firearms were reported lost or stolen across the country last year, according to a new report by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives.

The audit, ordered by the Obama administration in the aftermath of the December Connecticut school massacre, is the first such public accounting by the ATF.

The overwhelming majority —183,660 — were stolen guns. That number is up from 145,300 firearms reported stolen in 2010, according to a separate 2012 review by the Bureau of Justice Statics' National Crime Victims Survey.

However, the Bureau of Justice Statistics' survey found that firearm thefts, like overall thefts, have been declining for much of the past decade.

In its report, the ATF warned that its findings "likely reveal only a fraction of the problem'' because "many lost and stolen firearms go entirely unreported.''

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/17/atf-firearms-lost-stolen/2432447/

...and...

ABOUT 1.4 MILLION GUNS STOLEN DURING HOUSEHOLD BURGLARIES

AND OTHER PROPERTY CRIMES FROM 2005 THROUGH 2010

WASHINGTON – About 1.4 million firearms were stolen during household burglaries and other property crimes over the six-year period from 2005 through 2010, according to a report released today by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). This number represents an estimated average of 232,400 firearms stolen each year— about 172,000 stolen during burglaries and 60,300 stolen during other property crimes.

These estimates are based on data from the annual National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) which has collected information from victims of crime since 1973. Of the guns stolen each year during burglaries and other property crimes, at least 80 percent, or an annual average of 186,800 firearms, had not been recovered up to six months after being stolen.

From 2005 through 2010, firearms were stolen in about four percent of the 2.4 million household burglaries and in less than one percent of the 13.6 million other property crimes involving a completed theft that occurred during the period. Longer trends from 1994 to 2010 show a 49 percent decline in the total number of victimizations involving the theft of at least one firearm, from about 283,600 victimizations in 1994 to about 145,300 in 2010.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/fshbopc0510pr.cfm

...also...

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/2012-firearms-reported-lost-and-stolen.pdf

Point missed; completely.

Why, I just stated the facts. Apparently you have a problem with the truth?

OK, I see that I need to explain it to you.

I find it very hard to believe that criminals routinely break into police, army etc. armouries to steal guns; unless you know different.

They steal guns from people who own them legally; private individuals and gun shops. See chuckd's post above.

Without the widespread private ownership of guns and the numerous retail outlets selling guns criminals would find it much more difficult to steal them.

Therefore there would be fewer guns in the hands of criminals.

Note I say fewer, not none. I'm not so naïve as to believe that proper gun control will eliminate the illegal use of guns completely; but it will reduce it significantly.

Plus it will prevent tragedies like the one which began this topic.

Point missed; completely.

Why, I just stated the facts. Apparently you have a problem with the truth?

OK, I see that I need to explain it to you.

I find it very hard to believe that criminals routinely break into police, army etc. armouries to steal guns; unless you know different.

They steal guns from people who own them legally; private individuals and gun shops. See chuckd's post above.

Without the widespread private ownership of guns and the numerous retail outlets selling guns criminals would find it much more difficult to steal them.

Therefore there would be fewer guns in the hands of criminals.

Note I say fewer, not none. I'm not so naïve as to believe that proper gun control will eliminate the illegal use of guns completely; but it will reduce it significantly.

Plus it will prevent tragedies like the one which began this topic.

I didn't say attempts on armories were as common place, but they do happen. In addition to this theft, http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/07/authorities-offer-reward-in-gun-theft-from-army-base.html a good number of M-16's were stolen while being transported not so long ago. Most of the police weapons I have read about, were small thefts, usually out of police vehicles, similar to this incident, http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/boston-north/highpowered-weapons-stolen-from-fbi-swat-vehicle/22858168#!SY22L, even the FBI isn't immune. I understand what you are saying about fewer weapons, etc. Unfortunately that isn't likely to happen, they are being smuggled back and forth across the border from Mexico, and some containers, supposedly with Chinese connections, have been intercepted. Again, your logic makes sense,but if you only look at part of the situation. That's why I find these topics laughable, dozens of pages, and no usable information from people outside of the U.S.

I'm not so naïve as to believe that proper gun control will eliminate the illegal use of guns completely; but it will reduce it significantly.

Probably true, but, depending on the severity of the gun control laws, it is likely to leave almost all the weapons that do exist in the hands of criminals, with no private protection against them and there are already millions of guns on the streets. That is why so many Americans are so suspicious of gun control.

Since it's Sunday, here's a bit of a read to go with your morning coffee/tea/Chang/Lao Khao

How the NRA Rewrote the Second Amendment

The Founders never intended to create an unregulated individual right to a gun. Today, millions believe they did. Here’s how it happened.

I'm not so naïve as to believe that proper gun control will eliminate the illegal use of guns completely; but it will reduce it significantly.

Probably true, but, depending on the severity of the gun control laws, it is likely to leave almost all the weapons that do exist in the hands of criminals, with no private protection against them and there are already millions of guns on the streets. That is why so many Americans are so suspicious of gun control.

I'm not saying that introducing proper gun control will reduce the of criminal ownership overnight; of course it wont.

But it will, over time, do so as those weapons become harder to obtain.

I wonder, though, how many people shot by criminals are innocent victims of crime and how many are criminals shot by other criminals in turf wars etc.

I suspect that the latter far outweighs the former.

Elliot Rodger: Top 5 Magnificent Moments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVnI_BoynfE