Swedish ecologist: 'Food production cycle needs rethink'

[Daniel Boon]

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Go vegetarian - eat from a lower trophic level and there is more than enough food and other resources to go around - 1 pound of beef requires 2500 galleons of water to produce over the life of the cow (includes water to grow the food to feed to the cow) - kinda makes the water wastage during Songkran pail into insignificance.

I was born a flesh eating carnivore and will die one. wipe it's a#se, knock the horns off and throw it on my plate. Yum Yum.

Actually, I don't want to pi** on your party or be pedantic, but you were'nt. Much as I also like a BBQ and a nice steak, Humans were never born as carnivores. We do not have the teeth for it and we do not have the gut for it. It is just science (biology) and just the way it is. Our intestinal tract in particular is not that of a meat eating species. Meat causes our 'species' massive problems in terms of heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes , our stomach acid is no where near strong enough to cope with eating raw meat and the intestinal tract does not eject it quick enough, therefore it rots and causes havoc with our system.

We have a carbohydrate enzyme based digestive system. If you were a born carnivore you would pick up and smell the delights of a piece of 4 day old road kill and eat it as eagerly as you would a handful of strawberry's picked off a bush, and your teeth and fingers would be designed to do the job without the need for mining iron ore, smelting it down and making knives. So roast beef and yorkshire puds.....love it but don't kid yourself, the benefits are only psychological, it is learned behaviour and not natural and it does us a lot of harm. Despite knowing that, meat eating is addictive enough for me to partake but saying humans are natural meat eaters is like saying they are natural smokers.

The guy in the OP raises valid points but what is the solution? Population is now growing far quicker than ideas and implementation of strategies to cope with what will become the worlds biggest problem....no food. no fresh water. I will be fortunate enough to see my time out with relative comfort in terms of food availability but I do not see the same luxury for my grand children and theirs.

Most people have zero idea about anything to do with food production and one of the reasons we took to eating meat was that it was the only way to comfortably survive in areas where the land was so mean in giving up it's fruits. Humans were permanently hungry and permanently foraging until we got the idea that sticking a large dead animal on the table saved a lot of walking, stooping and berry picking. We are destined to have demand outstrip possible supply and the subsequent war, conflict, disease and starvation that will ensue may just put us back to a point of balance with the planet if we are lucky, if not then extinction will result. To be manageable all the experts say a population of around 500 million is perfect for the planet........now go and research as to how the likes of Bill Gates and his Father and quite a few others see that as a mission to aim for Got to go, bacon, sausage and egg sarnie is just done

you are wrong Jim ... factually, the different blood groups are indicative of staple diets, with O as having a meat component to the said staple diet ... you can research the rest if you are so inclined ....

[GentlemanJim]

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Go vegetarian - eat from a lower trophic level and there is more than enough food and other resources to go around - 1 pound of beef requires 2500 galleons of water to produce over the life of the cow (includes water to grow the food to feed to the cow) - kinda makes the water wastage during Songkran pail into insignificance.

I was born a flesh eating carnivore and will die one. wipe it's a#se, knock the horns off and throw it on my plate. Yum Yum.

Actually, I don't want to pi** on your party or be pedantic, but you were'nt. Much as I also like a BBQ and a nice steak, Humans were never born as carnivores. We do not have the teeth for it and we do not have the gut for it. It is just science (biology) and just the way it is. Our intestinal tract in particular is not that of a meat eating species. Meat causes our 'species' massive problems in terms of heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes , our stomach acid is no where near strong enough to cope with eating raw meat and the intestinal tract does not eject it quick enough, therefore it rots and causes havoc with our system.

We have a carbohydrate enzyme based digestive system. If you were a born carnivore you would pick up and smell the delights of a piece of 4 day old road kill and eat it as eagerly as you would a handful of strawberry's picked off a bush, and your teeth and fingers would be designed to do the job without the need for mining iron ore, smelting it down and making knives. So roast beef and yorkshire puds.....love it but don't kid yourself, the benefits are only psychological, it is learned behaviour and not natural and it does us a lot of harm. Despite knowing that, meat eating is addictive enough for me to partake but saying humans are natural meat eaters is like saying they are natural smokers.

The guy in the OP raises valid points but what is the solution? Population is now growing far quicker than ideas and implementation of strategies to cope with what will become the worlds biggest problem....no food. no fresh water. I will be fortunate enough to see my time out with relative comfort in terms of food availability but I do not see the same luxury for my grand children and theirs.

Most people have zero idea about anything to do with food production and one of the reasons we took to eating meat was that it was the only way to comfortably survive in areas where the land was so mean in giving up it's fruits. Humans were permanently hungry and permanently foraging until we got the idea that sticking a large dead animal on the table saved a lot of walking, stooping and berry picking. We are destined to have demand outstrip possible supply and the subsequent war, conflict, disease and starvation that will ensue may just put us back to a point of balance with the planet if we are lucky, if not then extinction will result. To be manageable all the experts say a population of around 500 million is perfect for the planet........now go and research as to how the likes of Bill Gates and his Father and quite a few others see that as a mission to aim for Got to go, bacon, sausage and egg sarnie is just done

you are wrong Jim ... factually, the different blood groups are indicative of staple diets, with O as having a meat component to the said staple diet ... you can research the rest if you are so inclined ....

Daniel, I am not wrong and it will take a lot more than the mention of blood groups to persuade me otherwise. If you want to be a University lecturer you had better to a lot better than that. You can research the rest if you are so inclined....

[GentlemanJim]

People have been spouting this nonsense for hundreds of years now, even credible scientists like Malthus. So far, technology seems to keep up with these pressures. We get the conservation thing, but no need to go looney.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

technology not 'keeping up' ... when the 'green revolution' happened; more rice was grown than could be eaten; however, as with everywhere, the population grew to the production and has now surpassed it ... its one of the reasons that refugee numbers keep climbing ... the carrying capacity of populated areas is soon overrun ...

if a beaker containing organisms doubles every year and the beaker is quarter full, how long before it is full?

Never because the beaker is doubling every year....that is what you meant to say isn't it? Doh!

[GentlemanJim]

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Go vegetarian - eat from a lower trophic level and there is more than enough food and other resources to go around - 1 pound of beef requires 2500 galleons of water to produce over the life of the cow (includes water to grow the food to feed to the cow) - kinda makes the water wastage during Songkran pail into insignificance.

I was born a flesh eating carnivore and will die one. wipe it's a#se, knock the horns off and throw it on my plate. Yum Yum.

Actually, I don't want to pi** on your party or be pedantic, but you were'nt. Much as I also like a BBQ and a nice steak, Humans were never born as carnivores. We do not have the teeth for it and we do not have the gut for it. It is just science (biology) and just the way it is. Our intestinal tract in particular is not that of a meat eating species. Meat causes our 'species' massive problems in terms of heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes , our stomach acid is no where near strong enough to cope with eating raw meat and the intestinal tract does not eject it quick enough, therefore it rots and causes havoc with our system.

We have a carbohydrate enzyme based digestive system. If you were a born carnivore you would pick up and smell the delights of a piece of 4 day old road kill and eat it as eagerly as you would a handful of strawberry's picked off a bush, and your teeth and fingers would be designed to do the job without the need for mining iron ore, smelting it down and making knives. So roast beef and yorkshire puds.....love it but don't kid yourself, the benefits are only psychological, it is learned behaviour and not natural and it does us a lot of harm. Despite knowing that, meat eating is addictive enough for me to partake but saying humans are natural meat eaters is like saying they are natural smokers.

The guy in the OP raises valid points but what is the solution? Population is now growing far quicker than ideas and implementation of strategies to cope with what will become the worlds biggest problem....no food. no fresh water. I will be fortunate enough to see my time out with relative comfort in terms of food availability but I do not see the same luxury for my grand children and theirs.

Most people have zero idea about anything to do with food production and one of the reasons we took to eating meat was that it was the only way to comfortably survive in areas where the land was so mean in giving up it's fruits. Humans were permanently hungry and permanently foraging until we got the idea that sticking a large dead animal on the table saved a lot of walking, stooping and berry picking. We are destined to have demand outstrip possible supply and the subsequent war, conflict, disease and starvation that will ensue may just put us back to a point of balance with the planet if we are lucky, if not then extinction will result. To be manageable all the experts say a population of around 500 million is perfect for the planet........now go and research as to how the likes of Bill Gates and his Father and quite a few others see that as a mission to aim for Got to go, bacon, sausage and egg sarnie is just done

Damn I know I am not a vampire so what am I doing with these bloody incisors and canines. let me tear into a piece of flesh any day over a lousy lettuce leaf. I have teeth for ripping apart flesh and I will use them.

Almost every animal in the animal kingdom with the exception of only a few have canine teeth. An unfortunate term as it does not mean that the teeth are meant for meat. There are a number of reasons for these teeth and I will let you grow and expand your knowledge by finding out. I guess with your argument you would have us believe that Hippo's (largest canine teeth of any land mammal) , Camels, Deer, Gorilla's , Baboons, etc etc are all supposed to be meat eaters. Do what you like with your teeth and tear and rip apart flesh if you like. The fact is your insides are NOT meant for meat. A little experiment. Eat all your meat from now on totally raw without the use of a knife or fork. If you are not dead in 6 months then your parasite infested disease ridden body will wish it was. Oh.....and see how long your teeth last

And by the way, I am not a veggie but stop kidding yourself. I like meat, that doesn't mean to say we are supposed to and it's good for us.

Edited June 6, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[lineofentry]

There is no point in being more efficient or rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, which is basically what the good scientist is suggesting, unless it is combined with population reduction. The problem is we have no proper predators to keep our population down and since we developed nuclear weapons we can't have real wars. The bomb will kill us, but not in the way we thought.

[DrTuner]

Folks are just too PC to out the real solution: decrease the number of people. In the past plagues did the job, now it's a bit skewed by modern medicine, wars still work.

[xminator]

Its not about organic or vegan or whatever fuzzword diet someone want to push on us, but the sustainability of food and water is a very real problem. I believe technology can solve some problems here, but the consumer have to accept that they have to pay taxes to sustain food production. Without subsidising food production you go toward a system where only the best land is used for production and where that production is based on output from good years. Mother Earth does not have only good years, she have some bad years in between, so you subsidise food to make sure the farmer can pay his bills even when over-production in good years drive prices down.

The way to ensure sustainable food production is subsidising.

[xminator]

Folks are just too PC to out the real solution: decrease the number of people. In the past plagues did the job, now it's a bit skewed by modern medicine, wars still work.

Do you stand first in line for termination? If not, then you can not expect anyone else to volunteer.

[WhizBang]

Go vegetarian - eat from a lower trophic level and there is more than enough food and other resources to go around - 1 pound of beef requires 2500 galleons of water to produce over the life of the cow (includes water to grow the food to feed to the cow) - kinda makes the water wastage during Songkran pail into insignificance.

Actually, I think insects are the answer. Maggots, anyone? (and no, I am not taking a p!ss. Google it)

[DrTuner]

Folks are just too PC to out the real solution: decrease the number of people. In the past plagues did the job, now it's a bit skewed by modern medicine, wars still work.

Do you stand first in line for termination? If not, then you can not expect anyone else to volunteer.

Volunteering is not necessary, mother nature will do the selection one way or the other. Humanity does do quite a good job in scavenging the planet, though, extermination events have been just bumps on the road.

[GentlemanJim]

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Go vegetarian - eat from a lower trophic level and there is more than enough food and other resources to go around - 1 pound of beef requires 2500 galleons of water to produce over the life of the cow (includes water to grow the food to feed to the cow) - kinda makes the water wastage during Songkran pail into insignificance.

I was born a flesh eating carnivore and will die one. wipe it's a#se, knock the horns off and throw it on my plate. Yum Yum.

Actually, I don't want to pi** on your party or be pedantic, but you were'nt. Much as I also like a BBQ and a nice steak, Humans were never born as carnivores. We do not have the teeth for it and we do not have the gut for it. It is just science (biology) and just the way it is. Our intestinal tract in particular is not that of a meat eating species. Meat causes our 'species' massive problems in terms of heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes , our stomach acid is no where near strong enough to cope with eating raw meat and the intestinal tract does not eject it quick enough, therefore it rots and causes havoc with our system.

We have a carbohydrate enzyme based digestive system. If you were a born carnivore you would pick up and smell the delights of a piece of 4 day old road kill and eat it as eagerly as you would a handful of strawberry's picked off a bush, and your teeth and fingers would be designed to do the job without the need for mining iron ore, smelting it down and making knives. So roast beef and yorkshire puds.....love it but don't kid yourself, the benefits are only psychological, it is learned behaviour and not natural and it does us a lot of harm. Despite knowing that, meat eating is addictive enough for me to partake but saying humans are natural meat eaters is like saying they are natural smokers.

The guy in the OP raises valid points but what is the solution? Population is now growing far quicker than ideas and implementation of strategies to cope with what will become the worlds biggest problem....no food. no fresh water. I will be fortunate enough to see my time out with relative comfort in terms of food availability but I do not see the same luxury for my grand children and theirs.

Most people have zero idea about anything to do with food production and one of the reasons we took to eating meat was that it was the only way to comfortably survive in areas where the land was so mean in giving up it's fruits. Humans were permanently hungry and permanently foraging until we got the idea that sticking a large dead animal on the table saved a lot of walking, stooping and berry picking. We are destined to have demand outstrip possible supply and the subsequent war, conflict, disease and starvation that will ensue may just put us back to a point of balance with the planet if we are lucky, if not then extinction will result. To be manageable all the experts say a population of around 500 million is perfect for the planet........now go and research as to how the likes of Bill Gates and his Father and quite a few others see that as a mission to aim for Got to go, bacon, sausage and egg sarnie is just done

you are wrong Jim ... factually, the different blood groups are indicative of staple diets, with O as having a meat component to the said staple diet ... you can research the rest if you are so inclined ....

Daniel, I am so annoyed by your post that I have to come back to it as it concerns me that you are about to become a University Lecturer for young adults.

Are you seriously asking us to believe that there is any validity in the 'blood group diet'? There is not one shred of scientific proof that there is any validity in any of it, It is nothing short of absolute BS that was designed for no other purpose than to make the author loads of money by bringing out yet another book in the best seller of all categories...fad diets.

The whole concept is scientifically and logically flawed and everything concerning the theory is invalid. Of course anyone who follows such a diet is going to feel better because just like any reasonable diet it cuts out all the crap that we eat. Those people that have 'o' group blood are told to eat 'lean' meats, such as fish, poultry and venison, and told to avoid 'fatty' meats like beef. Well that is going to help your blood health no matter who you are. Are there any blood groups that are told to eat 'fatty' meats like beef?....No!

As a University Lecturer you have a responsibility to ensure that when you label something as a 'fact', that it is indeed fact. It is incredible that an allegedly thinking person would allow themselves to believe such unscientific clap trap without actually looking at it from an objective point of view. You need to stay away from educating young adults until you understand what a 'fact' is. Perhaps for homework you can look up the reams of scientific evidence exposing the 'blood group' theory of diet as BS, and maybe you could also read up on the gastrointestinal system in humans and its absolute unsuitability for the digestion of meat (that is a 'FACT' by the way), then please do come back here to discuss 'facts' and I would look forward to it immensely.

[tomloughney]

Overpopulation? 7 billion people can fit into Texas given each of them 1000 sq ft of space. Giving all families of 4 a 4000 sq ft home is rather good. Build the apartments 25 stories tall and you use only 4% of the land for housing leaving the rest for roads, parks, etc. That being said the rest of the world is available to produce food and products for the "world of Texas" that would be less dense than Singapore, rather nice I would think.

50% of food spoils before it is consumed, and of that Half that is cooked, 40% of that is thrown away. So we currently only eat 30% of what is grown and harvested.

50% of the electricity generated is wasted by the grid system we have, and of the energy brought into the home 50% of that is wasted due to poor insulation, over heating/cooling, poor water heating/cooking processes, leaving doors open, lights on, etc. So only 25% of the electricity that is generated is used.

Listening to the banter is seems that using what we already produce could feed/power/house 4 fold the current population of the world or 28 billion people, but then we would need to use California for housing, but without building more power plants, more farms, or using more land.

I seldom hear movements to improve but easy to "prevent" what ever it is we want to bash.

My 1950 ford got 21 mpg, and my 2008 honda civic got 24 mpg. Had computers evolved so slowly we would still be using burnt sticks to write. When in 2nd year uni in 1966 class project designed a 200 mpg car using small motor, generator, electric motor, battery and flywheel for momentum. But thousands of engineers at GM couldn't do that???????

Bash the lack of progress in what we do rather than to "prevent" things.

[RPCVguy]

Quite a wide range of comments today. Glad to see that the global issue of food is included in a Thai forum. Thailand has one of the few populations that could still return to an agricultural "kitchen garden" for each household lifestyle. It gets harder with each passing year as more people move to the cities, but the King has called for people to do so as a means of maintaining resiliency in what longer term analysis has warned lies ahead. While Climate Change is expected to add to the rainfall of the south of Thailand, and cause droughts in China's breadbasket, northern Thailand is in the boundary region that will vacillate between years of heavier rains and years of droughts. The ability to mitigate this global disaster requires maintenance of soil vitality, which is hard to do in the tropics - especially after the forests have been badly thinned or removed. Concepts of plant diversity that favor manual cultivation and local consumption WILL have a better rate of survival - especially too as reliance on tractors and fertilizers begins to cost too much (Peak Oil) to support continuance.

Anyone who saw the Thai Airways Magazine"Sawasdee" of April 2014 has possibly seen this article about the program and concerns of Her Royal Highness Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn. (see magazine pages 44 - 49)
http://www.prthaiairways.com/sawasdee/201404
also http://www.chaipat.or.th/chaipat_english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4158%3Akasornkasiwit-implementation&catid=743%3Akasornkasiwit&Itemid=308

The real issues are all too sobering... The predictions as 1972's "Limits to Growth" by Prof' Dennis Meadows have been verified as on target for 40 years. HE has since updated it:
"Meadows holds that collapse is now all but inevitable, but that its actual form will be too complex for any model to predict. “Collapse will not be driven by a single, identifiable cause simultaneously acting in all countries,” he observes. “It will come through a self-reinforcing complex of issues”—including climate change, resource constraints and socioeconomic inequality. When economies slow down, Meadows explains, fewer products are created relative to demand, and “when the rich can’t get more by producing real wealth they start to use their power to take from lower segments.” As scarcities mount and inequality increases, revolutions and socioeconomic movements like the Arab Spring or Occupy Wall Street will become more widespread—as will their repression."
http://energyskeptic.com/2014/dennis-meadows-collapse-is-inevitable-now-2015-2020/


So, back to that range of opinions here today...
I agree with Daniel and those who've posted similarly. time is upon us all.
A return to the days of the water buffalo farming and multiple fruit trees in the household yards - that is a prescription for lowering the coming pain.

Technology is now unlikely to keep up, and the consequences of population overshoot will affect people everywhere, including Thailand. Not a pretty or comfortable forecast, but it looks to be a very likely one.

People have been spouting this nonsense for hundreds of years now, even credible scientists like Malthus. So far, technology seems to keep up with these pressures. We get the conservation thing, but no need to go looney.
Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

technology not 'keeping up' ... when the 'green revolution' happened; more rice was grown than could be eaten; however, as with everywhere, the population grew to the production and has now surpassed it ... its one of the reasons that refugee numbers keep climbing ... the carrying capacity of populated areas is soon overrun ...

if a beaker containing organisms doubles every year and the beaker is quarter full, how long before it is full?

[Daniel Boon]

'Gentleman Jim' I did write a response ... but it was blocked; something to do with passing a number of quoted quotes ...

I am sorry to annoy you Jim; but as my eldest says 'opinions are like arse-holes, everyone has got one and usually full of shit'

Well if you know and can do better ... go for it. You pose the question "Are you seriously asking us to believe that there is any validity in the 'blood group diet" when really its just You. And yes I do; I even admitted I got the blood group wrong and cited the link of the Internet.

You say "There is not one shred of scientific proof that there is any validity in any of it" there are many things that are unsupported by Scientists, just as there are many things that Scientists have 'proved' only to be disproved.

"As a University Lecturer you have a responsibility to ensure that when you label something as a 'fact', that it is indeed fact".

That's a valid point Jim; however, empirical data shows many Science theories are wrong, meritorious data is withheld and many government policies curry favour with corporations. I do not teach, support or advocate anyone to use the blood diet; it was an off-the-cuff observation intended to promote discussion, not froth-at-the-mouth responses by someone purporting to be representative of 'us' ....

Disprove the blood group theory and supply your research methodologies including blind studies, but be aware your stance has already cast doubt on your research being skewed by your (vitriolic repetitive) statements ... so where are your facts