US downgrade only a short-term impact: FTI

[UbonRatch]

Anyone want to bet that Thailand remains Tier 3 next year?

Odds pls?

Meet you at the bike stand.

[Lupatria]

The US downgrade of Thailand to the lowest level or Tier 3 in the "Trafficking in Persons" (TIP) report will have only a short-term impact...

Sure, similar to all former attempts to improve education, to make preparations for ASEAN, to run a non corrupt government etc. etc.

The new hub of immunity to impacts.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Lupatria

[northernjohn]

"Suchart Chantaranakarach said the downgrade will affect only those selling products under the “Made in Thailand” label."

It just continues in a downward spiral, does it not?

Unbelievable statement!

What's next on the unscrupulous agenda? A change of brands and labels, with no mention of source?

Thainess is losing its Thainess, in all matter of ways. Or, maybe, it has totally lost it, and Thainess does not exist anymore unless the word corruption is explicitly involved.

Well I hate to admit it but you are right. Corruption has been growing and Thainess is slowly being replaced by commercialism.

The industry has been aware that they have been perceived to be big time in the inhumane treatment of their crews. All of a sudden when even a hint that it might hurt their pocketbooks shows up they decide to prove it wrong. Why not 5 years ago?

[SanukJoeII]

All those guys commenting and bashing, do you buy foods from CP, Tesco, Walmart?

Then you are as guilty as those who use slaves, as you buy the result of that slavery!

I stopped buying shrimps, but for health reasons, don't like antibiotics in my food.

If you want to stop buying those products, have a look at what you buy, most shrimp, fish, chicken, eggs, pork comes from CP, a multinational with factories in 12 countries all over the world. CP UK is a well-known subsidiary. CP products are sold all over the world, 5 continents.

So use your consumer power and refuse to buy those products, consumers decide if CP can continue, grow or has to size down.

[Yann55]

quote post #4 by 'timewilltell' :

Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth ?

My question :

Are you quite sure that the word 'Thai' in your sentence could not be replaced by just about any nationality on this planet ? Isn't that what politics are all about, all over the place ?

This downgrade occurs at the exact moment when a government in this country is finally likely (and able) to adress the problem of human trafficking. We can't be sure, but there is a fair chance and, in a remarkably short time-span we have seen unprecedented action from this government in other fields that were deemed impossible to tackle.

But why give them the benefit of the doubt when it's so much easier to criticize and gloat ? Besides Mr Kerry and his European lesson-giving counterparts are not happy because this government has not been sanctified by 'democratic elections' like all its predecessors You know, 'democratic elections' of the third type, where votes cost a mere 500 baht a piece or a promise for a piece of the cake.

The irony of this whole mess is mind-boggling. And naturally the usual Thai Bashing Squadron of TVF are clapping and gleaming with self-righteousness.

[UbonRatch]

"Suchart Chantaranakarach said the downgrade will affect only those selling products under the “Made in Thailand” label."

It just continues in a downward spiral, does it not?

Unbelievable statement!

What's next on the unscrupulous agenda? A change of brands and labels, with no mention of source?

Thainess is losing its Thainess, in all matter of ways. Or, maybe, it has totally lost it, and Thainess does not exist anymore unless the word corruption is explicitly involved.

Well I hate to admit it but you are right. Corruption has been growing and Thainess is slowly being replaced by commercialism.

The industry has been aware that they have been perceived to be big time in the inhumane treatment of their crews. All of a sudden when even a hint that it might hurt their pocketbooks shows up they decide to prove it wrong. Why not 5 years ago?

It's such a shame. Yet, wasn't Thainess always and in anyways complimentary to Thai women?

I don't recall Thainess ever being associated with Thai males. I may well be wrong, not mentioning him who is/was a statute for liberty here, for whom I hold admiration.

I personally believe the word 'Thainess' is lost in any translation, even within Thai. It is an adage. It's gone.

I'd love a recent example of Thainess, to show me nothing corrupt was involved, and it was a pure act of true Dhamma, Pali and recent belief in such; and that it involved no gain.

[klauskunkel]

You just can't make this up. It's like they have a desperate need for the status quo to remain the same. Can not, will not, must not change. Change is bad. And the statements they make to justify their inactivity are simply inane. On top of that, I'm pretty sure they even believe themselves the nonsense du jour they are spouting. Of course, due to Short Attention Span Syndrome, they could very well come out with the exact opposite tomorrow, and believe it, too.

It must be something in the water...God bless them...

[dominique355]

After all the good clean-up work the Junta has done so far, one would have expected that the downgrading of Thailand would lead to an improvement of the migrant workers and an attempt to eradicate of slavery.

Maybe we have put too much hope on the Military. All they seem to care - at least in this are - is the economic impact on the Thai industry. No words lost about why Thailand was downgraded in the first place. Or is Chalerm still in his office?

[UbonRatch]

You just can't make this up. It's like they have a desperate need for the status quo to remain the same. Can not, will not, must not change. Change is bad. And the statements they make to justify their inactivity are simply inane. On top of that, I'm pretty sure they even believe themselves the nonsense du jour they are spouting. Of course, due to Short Attention Span Syndrome, they could very well come out with the exact opposite tomorrow, and believe it, too.

It must be something in the water...God bless them...

I left my shoes in the Bastille, after 25 years of making them.

I never felt the need to return, nor did I regret change.

Regards,

Modern Defarge.

[belg]

thai food necessary/ cannot live without, for the rest of the world, is that what they think ?

didn't they think the same with a rice cartel that dropped the price of rice on the international market ?

[timewilltell]

quote post #4 by 'timewilltell' :

Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth ?

My question :

Are you quite sure that the word 'Thai' in your sentence could not be replaced by just about any nationality on this planet ? Isn't that what politics are all about, all over the place ?

This downgrade occurs at the exact moment when a government in this country is finally likely (and able) to adress the problem of human trafficking. We can't be sure, but there is a fair chance and, in a remarkably short time-span we have seen unprecedented action from this government in other fields that were deemed impossible to tackle.

But why give them the benefit of the doubt when it's so much easier to criticize and gloat ? Besides Mr Kerry and his European lesson-giving counterparts are not happy because this government has not been sanctified by 'democratic elections' like all its predecessors You know, 'democratic elections' of the third type, where votes cost a mere 500 baht a piece or a promise for a piece of the cake.

The irony of this whole mess is mind-boggling. And naturally the usual Thai Bashing Squadron of TVF are clapping and gleaming with self-righteousness.

I am quite sure that in the context of my reply the word Thais was correctly used - it was not meant to sanitize what goes on in other countries. But most of those other countries are certainly much more open in reporting and dealing with the issues arising even if not perfectly. In contrast the Thais start a cover up to hide and deceive, lie and screen whilst stopping or prosecuting all and sundry who report on these acts. It would rather cover up the stink than wash it away.

As for the junta, I am a supporter of their actions (in the main), and if you read other posts by me you would know. My comments were not about the last two months but the inaction and surreptitious support by the previous administrations so you have your wires crossed there. The report deals with what has happened in the past. I am hopeful, like you, that the stronger administration will be able to get to grips with this problem, but looking at the bull coming out of the mouths of all the 'interested' parties there is a lot of work to be done in changing mind sets.

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[BillChildress]

Interesting that it was reported that he said absolutely nothing about doing anything about the problem namely, "human trafficing". Just basically states that being downgraded to a "tier 3 country" is not really a big deal.

[Thai at Heart]

While the US breaks and bends every conceivable moral code there is, it arrogantly putting the squeeze on Thailand....... As an American, I resent very much the antics of the US government. Of course, I don't condone the shady things that ocurr in Thailand, but the US would be well advised to clean up its own act.

So is Walmart allowed to buy product from companies in America employing slaves.

Wow. Times must be tough over there.

[bunuel]

While the US breaks and bends every conceivable moral code there is, it arrogantly putting the squeeze on Thailand....... As an American, I resent very much the antics of the US government. Of course, I don't condone the shady things that ocurr in Thailand, but the US would be well advised to clean up its own act.

Being American doesn't make your point any more valid or interesting.

If Thailand wants to play the international economy game, Thailand needs to play by the rules or face trouble.

The USA wears the pants in this economic relationship. If Thailand was so confident in its ability to exist without any significant economic ties to the USA, surely, knowing the general arrogance of the Thai elite, they would simply have cut off economic ties.

So, your sentiment is a bit naive, I fear.

The USA and Japan have more or less made Thailand the 'recently industrialized' country it is today.

Thailand has done little of that significance for any country.

Thailand is the baby. USA and Japan are momma and dadda.

Excellent post about the realities of international geopolitics. While the Cold War ended over two decades ago, strategic alliances remain in place, and are particularly relevant here in East Asia. When Japan and the US politely ask a junior partner to cease and desist, they expect to be heard. If the junior partner chooses not to listen, the senior partners have ways of getting their attention. This is but one of them. LOS can expect a tsunami of international unpleasantries in the near future, as senior partners are not fooled by the threat of a Pivot to Peking for one second. Some posters seem to think LOS dwells in a time and space of its own design, as some Thais would have us believe. I have some news for them: it does not. This is not a question of Western or American hypocrisy, which we all know exists - what is going on is a movement towards universal ostracism of LOS for a host of reasons - some justified, some possibly not.

The real problem is the stubborn refusal of LOS authorities even to acknowledge there is such a trend - as they say, Denial is not a river in Egypt!

[Yann55]

quote post #4 by 'timewilltell' :

Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth ?

My question :

Are you quite sure that the word 'Thai' in your sentence could not be replaced by just about any nationality on this planet ? Isn't that what politics are all about, all over the place ?

This downgrade occurs at the exact moment when a government in this country is finally likely (and able) to adress the problem of human trafficking. We can't be sure, but there is a fair chance and, in a remarkably short time-span we have seen unprecedented action from this government in other fields that were deemed impossible to tackle.

But why give them the benefit of the doubt when it's so much easier to criticize and gloat ? Besides Mr Kerry and his European lesson-giving counterparts are not happy because this government has not been sanctified by 'democratic elections' like all its predecessors You know, 'democratic elections' of the third type, where votes cost a mere 500 baht a piece or a promise for a piece of the cake.

The irony of this whole mess is mind-boggling. And naturally the usual Thai Bashing Squadron of TVF are clapping and gleaming with self-righteousness.

I am quite sure that in the context of my reply the word Thais was correctly used - it was not meant to sanitize what goes on in other countries. But most of those other countries are certainly much more open in reporting and dealing with the issues arising even if not perfectly. In contrast the Thais start a cover up to hide and deceive, lie and screen whilst stopping or prosecuting all and sundry who report on these acts. It would rather cover up the stink than wash it away.

As for the junta, I am a supporter of their actions (in the main), and if you read other posts by me you would know. My comments were not about the last two months but the inaction and surreptitious support by the previous administrations so you have your wires crossed there. The report deals with what has happened in the past. I am hopeful, like you, that the stronger administration will be able to get to grips with this problem, but looking at the bull coming out of the mouths of all the 'interested' parties there is a lot of work to be done in changing mind sets.

Thanks for uncrossing my wires on the subject of your position about the present situation. When I mentioned to the 'Thai Bashing Squadron' I was not referring to your post, as a matter of fact, but to the numerous other posts by people who seem intent on turning just about any topic of any post into a good reason for throwing mud at this country. That includes the ones who've been living here for years and who so love to hate it. Honestly I find that pathetic.

Unlike you, I don't think there is such a big difference between the Thai form of 'cover-up' and what goes on in other countries, including those Western ones who are so eager at the moment to give all manners of sanctimonious advice, but that's just my point of view.

One of the things that shock me when I read a thread like this one is that the sense of timing seems to be totally lost to most who claim that nothing serious is being done. The coup occured on 22 May, a mere one month ago !

What the new government has done in terms of real clean-up in this single month is more than what its predecessors did in years, and even if that covers only 5 per cent of what actually needs to be done, at least there is reasonable hope now that this line of action will continue.

The slave-labour situation in the shrimp industry is an old issue, involving scores of people (including, let's not forget, the happily

'ignorant' consumer who loves his avocado-shrimp cocktail in New-York, London or Frankfurt at such a low price), and the scale of a vicious business chain like this one, compared with, say, the taxi mafia in Phuket or Suwarnabumi, is like an elephant compared with a fly.

Good governance requires time. The bigger the problem, the more time required. Writing outraged comments on TVF only takes a few minutes, just like a fix.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yann55

[likatysplit]

Frankly who cares. It is an American/Western term that really means nothing to those who have to work and suupport a family. WOW If you don't like it then get on a plane or ship and g back where you came from, and change your system.

[climbertrev1]

So is the suggestion they remove the 'Made in Thauland' label to avoid the issue. Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth. It would be so much cheaper to set up a task force of say 500 soldiers to root out the perpetrators and get a grip of the situation. Send them down with a team of reporters with complete freedom of reporting what was found. Tier two would be just around the corner. All this bull from the people involved is getting tedious.

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I support almost all of what you say but given history and the current situation you may be being a little too optimistic.

reporters with complete freedom of reporting

This is another long standing Thai problem particularly acute at this current time due to complete media control being exercised by the military. Who in their right mind would believe anything reported by the press.

As for pretending that this issue will just go away I think the Thai authorities (I mean the General) are in total denial.

In fact given the current situation everything that is reported has to fit the world view of a single individual. This is incredibly risky in the long term. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are not just nice liberal touchy feely traditions they are absolutely vital to have a society that is progressive and able to make real progress.

I have just returned from the UK. There I would have no concerns about stating my views and would not fear criticizing the powers that be. I am a little concerned that I may have overstepped the mark here in Thailand (the land of the free) the powers that be do not like criticism. Debate is being stifled at every turn.

Thailand I fear will become more isolated the longer free debate and reporting are suppressed. The really destructive corruption will just become deeper embedded since it will be beyond the reach of the press or individual reporting or criticism.

[inutil]

Actually the sense of timing is excellent. Possibly things WERE in the planning, but now theyve moved up the agenda. Whether by deliberate manipulation or otherwise, surely the issue of human traffic being a priority issue is always a good thing? And now you have in place the EXACT type of givernment that can deal with the issue quickly, efficiently, and effectively. For the people enslaved on these boats, the timing couldnt be better. And honestly, im not moralising here, but shouldnt that be the central and most important concern here?

In addition, i kinda resent this whole idea that people seem to think that a military junta faces the same issues as a civilian democratically elected parliament. The beauty of democracy is that consensus is ESSENTIAL. Things have to be negotiated and worked through. Sometimes this is with cross party support, but usually its with your own party members accountable to their own electorate. This is what make representative democracy the beast that it is. You cant just ram things through, and if you do, youll be accountable to members of the opposition as well as members of your own party should they feel that what youve just done has destroyed their chance of individual re-election. Accountability is paramount. Dont believe me? Why was Thatcher, the great hero of the right buried by her own party following the introduction of the poll tax?

Should the amnesty bill have gone through, and should the democrats have behaved like a genuine party of governance (and not fly by night opportunists), then scandals and failures like the rice pledging scheme would have seriously dented PTPs re-election sheen. Possibly they would have scraped through in the next election, but it wouldnt have been with the absolute majority they won in 2011. It would have been an ACTUAL miniority government at best. And a bit of horse trading could have seen the democrats once again pull down the government with a no confidence motion and a chance for the electorate to judge them as the custodians of financially responsible government as they always suggest themselves to be. A further consequence would have been the inroads the party would have made into 'red' areas, which would have laid claims to them being a national party representative of all Thai people and not just perceived vested interes. But again, they blew it and went for the band aid fix resulting in the same mistrust they always face in these regions. And right;y so.

This isnt even to mention the constitutional checks of the courts that would have absolutely prevented such a law from passing anyway.

Autocratic regimes on the other hand do not have these issues to contend with. If they want to spend money, they spend money. If they want cooperation from the banks or civilian businesses, they invoke edicts from martial law to threaten them with seizure. Clearly a certain company were not happy about the deal they got about broadcasting rights, particularly since they had just won a court case on the matter, but they were obviously encouraged to take it. Thats the difference. Could a civilian government have done that? Of course not? Could a civilian government have enforced a media <redacted>,,, opponents and <redacted> 're-education'... ? No. Absolutely not. The idea that youre working with the same political machinery here is balderdash. Could a civilian government have passed a budget or broken contracts with suppliers without any repercussions? No. Simply no. Theyd have been taken to court and would have either had to have passed retroactive legislation to cover their ass, or they would have outright lost.

This whole "theyve done more in a month than..." is nonsense. Of course they have. Thats what happens when you no longer have to deal with political accountability. This isnt to suggest its been a bad thing of course, its apparent to all sides that Thailand has been struggling with endemic and deep seated corruption, and possibly it required a certain push (a la lenin), but its silly to argue that its the same machinery at work here. Its not. Its an entirely different political structure with entirely different means to deliver solutions.

Edited June 24, 2014 by inutil

[climbertrev1]

When I tried to talk to my wife about people trafficing and slavery, she dismissed it as being propaganda against the junta and the international community know nothing about Thailand. I guess it is ingrained in them, if not from birth, certainly from the time they are old enough to stand in front of the flag and sing the national anthem every morning at school. A lost cause I fear.

The thing is though it doesn't matter what Thais think or believe about this issue.

Being made T3 affects the way the rest of the civilised world views and deals with Thailand. The Thais can believe what they like but the decisions to ban imports of shrimp or whatever from Thailand will be made far beyond the reach of the General and his minions. Thailand is now wide open for governments and ngos or individuals to boycott Thai goods.

Thailand and it's people will suffer from this negative ranking. Unfortunately it will be the poor and powerless Thais who will suffer worst. I hope and pray that the civilised world can come up with a method of hitting and hurting the people in control.

[Shaunduhpostman]

The response isn't suprising at all. It's just the usual waiting-till-the-cow-is-gone-before-you-start-thinking-about-closing-the-barn-door syndrome. The sanctions haven't kicked in so need to worry, no need to do anything about the problem. They probably don't think anything will actually happen and that the sanctions threat is just some kind of bluff to manipulate them.

[BudRight]

I think what's pissed everyone off is that Thais - as individuals - don't regard Burnese and Cambodians as Human and that they can't believe anyone else cares that they aren't treated as such.

You can very easily test this - ask them.

That the junta hasn't fixed it in a month is a red herring. It's that the problem has existed for centuries and NO Thai government has done even close to enough.

[Emster23]

I want to pick them up and shake them awake!!! They don't get it at all.... they don't realize that all this noise putting out is basically defending slavery. Should say thank you for pointing it out, we'll get right on it and fix it. Cut off their own noses.... YARG!!!

"illegal labour spread on social media could mislead consumers and create a negative image" How could hearing truth about wishing to keep status quo of slavery somehow "mislead"? Thailand created it's own negative image and don't have the brains they were born with to correct these flaws. Will they ever come out of denial and deal with reality?

[climbertrev1]

When I tried to talk to my wife about people trafficing and slavery, she dismissed it as being propaganda against the junta and the international community know nothing about Thailand. I guess it is ingrained in them, if not from birth, certainly from the time they are old enough to stand in front of the flag and sing the national anthem every morning at school. A lost cause I fear.

[climbertrev1]

While the US breaks and bends every conceivable moral code there is, it arrogantly putting the squeeze on Thailand....... As an American, I resent very much the antics of the US government. Of course, I don't condone the shady things that ocurr in Thailand, but the US would be well advised to clean up its own act.

Being American doesn't make your point any more valid or interesting.

If Thailand wants to play the international economy game, Thailand needs to play by the rules or face trouble.

The USA wears the pants in this economic relationship. If Thailand was so confident in its ability to exist without any significant economic ties to the USA, surely, knowing the general arrogance of the Thai elite, they would simply have cut off economic ties.

So, your sentiment is a bit naive, I fear.

The USA and Japan have more or less made Thailand the 'recently industrialized' country it is today.

Thailand has done little of that significance for any country.

Thailand is the baby. USA and Japan are momma and dadda.

Some posting here think the US government has a cheek criticizing Thailand because its own house is not in order that is simply beside the point.

The information leading to the T3 grading is being provided by all manner of research and investigation by media, NGO's and individuals. The consequences of being T3 for Thailand go far beyond what the US government is prepared to do. Those same groups reporting the injustices will campaign to get Thai goods and services boycotted. Slavery was not abolished because the British Government wanted it to be it was abolished by lobby led by Wilberforce and others. It was called the anti-slavery league formed in 1822. I am reminded of the fight against Apartheid which was led by other activists that forced governments to act against South Africa. The Thai elite military or otherwise is being very foolish if it thinks it can continually wriggle it's way out of problems.

[peecee]

Well the US is not going to edit the TIP report now it is out. The best these clowns can hope for is that next year they have done something to get out of tier 3 and back to tier 2. They were on tier 2 watch for 4 years and did not get the hint.

I am not confident that they will do anything significant to change their ways before next April when the data collection closes for the next year's TIP report.

That depends on how many shipping containers can be dumped at sea before the next report!

[Strangebrew]

Simple solution to the problem have the Thai Navy stop and board all fishing vessels check to to see if paperwork in order and crew are legal if not legal arrest the Captain take boat and crew to shore off load and sell catch divide among crew send crew back to home country Captain goes to jail owner of boat gets arrested too sell boat money goes to Navy for operation. It may take a few arrests but I bet it stops.

[timewilltell]

quote post #4 by 'timewilltell' :

Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth ?

My question :

Are you quite sure that the word 'Thai' in your sentence could not be replaced by just about any nationality on this planet ? Isn't that what politics are all about, all over the place ?

This downgrade occurs at the exact moment when a government in this country is finally likely (and able) to adress the problem of human trafficking. We can't be sure, but there is a fair chance and, in a remarkably short time-span we have seen unprecedented action from this government in other fields that were deemed impossible to tackle.

But why give them the benefit of the doubt when it's so much easier to criticize and gloat ? Besides Mr Kerry and his European lesson-giving counterparts are not happy because this government has not been sanctified by 'democratic elections' like all its predecessors You know, 'democratic elections' of the third type, where votes cost a mere 500 baht a piece or a promise for a piece of the cake.

The irony of this whole mess is mind-boggling. And naturally the usual Thai Bashing Squadron of TVF are clapping and gleaming with self-righteousness.

I am quite sure that in the context of my reply the word Thais was correctly used - it was not meant to sanitize what goes on in other countries. But most of those other countries are certainly much more open in reporting and dealing with the issues arising even if not perfectly. In contrast the Thais start a cover up to hide and deceive, lie and screen whilst stopping or prosecuting all and sundry who report on these acts. It would rather cover up the stink than wash it away.

As for the junta, I am a supporter of their actions (in the main), and if you read other posts by me you would know. My comments were not about the last two months but the inaction and surreptitious support by the previous administrations so you have your wires crossed there. The report deals with what has happened in the past. I am hopeful, like you, that the stronger administration will be able to get to grips with this problem, but looking at the bull coming out of the mouths of all the 'interested' parties there is a lot of work to be done in changing mind sets.

Thanks for uncrossing my wires on the subject of your position about the present situation. When I mentioned to the 'Thai Bashing Squadron' I was not referring to your post, as a matter of fact, but to the numerous other posts by people who seem intent on turning just about any topic of any post into a good reason for throwing mud at this country. That includes the ones who've been living here for years and who so love to hate it. Honestly I find that pathetic.

Unlike you, I don't think there is such a big difference between the Thai form of 'cover-up' and what goes on in other countries, including those Western ones who are so eager at the moment to give all manners of sanctimonious advice, but that's just my point of view.

One of the things that shock me when I read a thread like this one is that the sense of timing seems to be totally lost to most who claim that nothing serious is being done. The coup occured on 22 May, a mere one month ago !

What the new government has done in terms of real clean-up in this single month is more than what its predecessors did in years, and even if that covers only 5 per cent of what actually needs to be done, at least there is reasonable hope now that this line of action will continue.

The slave-labour situation in the shrimp industry is an old issue, involving scores of people (including, let's not forget, the happily

'ignorant' consumer who loves his avocado-shrimp cocktail in New-York, London or Frankfurt at such a low price), and the scale of a vicious business chain like this one, compared with, say, the taxi mafia in Phuket or Suwarnabumi, is like an elephant compared with a fly.

Good governance requires time. The bigger the problem, the more time required. Writing outraged comments on TVF only takes a few minutes, just like a fix.

On the whole I agree with you. I don't think the timing has anything to do with the coup though, the release was scheduled a long time before and is an annual thing as far as I understand it. The previous administration under Yingluck were making representations to try not to get demoted but too much talk and not enough action.

I support the coup for for exactly the reasons you state - they have done more in a month or to than the corrupt politicians from both camps have done for years. Thailand needs it to continue for the time being.

You are right about the other governments so eager to give advice yet themselves failing to deal with issues within their own borders. I think the biggest difference is freedom of reporting and somewhat more transparency. I think those issues damage Thailand far more than their restrictions help it.

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[johnno2]

While the US breaks and bends every conceivable moral code there is, it arrogantly putting the squeeze on Thailand....... As an American, I resent very much the antics of the US government. Of course, I don't condone the shady things that ocurr in Thailand, but the US would be well advised to clean up its own act.

Yeah, my first thoughts on the matter also. just where do those pesky mexican illegal immigrants work??

https://www.freetheslaves.net/document.doc?id=69

Edited June 25, 2014 by johnno2

[timewilltell]

Actually the sense of timing is excellent. Possibly things WERE in the planning, but now theyve moved up the agenda. Whether by deliberate manipulation or otherwise, surely the issue of human traffic being a priority issue is always a good thing? And now you have in place the EXACT type of givernment that can deal with the issue quickly, efficiently, and effectively. For the people enslaved on these boats, the timing couldnt be better. And honestly, im not moralising here, but shouldnt that be the central and most important concern here?

In addition, i kinda resent this whole idea that people seem to think that a military junta faces the same issues as a civilian democratically elected parliament. The beauty of democracy is that consensus is ESSENTIAL. Things have to be negotiated and worked through. Sometimes this is with cross party support, but usually its with your own party members accountable to their own electorate. This is what make representative democracy the beast that it is. You cant just ram things through, and if you do, youll be accountable to members of the opposition as well as members of your own party should they feel that what youve just done has destroyed their chance of individual re-election. Accountability is paramount. Dont believe me? Why was Thatcher, the great hero of the right buried by her own party following the introduction of the poll tax?

Should the amnesty bill have gone through, and should the democrats have behaved like a genuine party of governance (and not fly by night opportunists), then scandals and failures like the rice pledging scheme would have seriously dented PTPs re-election sheen. Possibly they would have scraped through in the next election, but it wouldnt have been with the absolute majority they won in 2011. It would have been an ACTUAL miniority government at best. And a bit of horse trading could have seen the democrats once again pull down the government with a no confidence motion and a chance for the electorate to judge them as the custodians of financially responsible government as they always suggest themselves to be. A further consequence would have been the inroads the party would have made into 'red' areas, which would have laid claims to them being a national party representative of all Thai people and not just perceived vested interes. But again, they blew it and went for the band aid fix resulting in the same mistrust they always face in these regions. And right;y so.

This isnt even to mention the constitutional checks of the courts that would have absolutely prevented such a law from passing anyway.

Autocratic regimes on the other hand do not have these issues to contend with. If they want to spend money, they spend money. If they want cooperation from the banks or civilian businesses, they invoke edicts from martial law to threaten them with seizure. Clearly a certain company were not happy about the deal they got about broadcasting rights, particularly since they had just won a court case on the matter, but they were obviously encouraged to take it. Thats the difference. Could a civilian government have done that? Of course not? Could a civilian government have enforced a media ,,, opponents and 're-education'... ? No. Absolutely not. The idea that youre working with the same political machinery here is balderdash. Could a civilian government have passed a budget or broken contracts with suppliers without any repercussions? No. Simply no. Theyd have been taken to court and would have either had to have passed retroactive legislation to cover their ass, or they would have outright lost.

This whole "theyve done more in a month than..." is nonsense. Of course they have. Thats what happens when you no longer have to deal with political accountability. This isnt to suggest its been a bad thing of course, its apparent to all sides that Thailand has been struggling with endemic and deep seated corruption, and possibly it required a certain push (a la lenin), but its silly to argue that its the same machinery at work here. Its not. Its an entirely different political structure with entirely different means to deliver solutions.

A thoughtful and interesting post. The question arising is WOULD either of the political parties even have wanted to start down the road of cleaning up Phuket, attacking the rice scheme scammers, making a start on cleaning up the corrupt? From my perspective the answer is no, because I am sure these politicians are all money seeking self-centered scumbags who do not have the interests of the country at heart. Given that urgent things are getting fixed I would not call it nonsense

You are of course right that if a political party wanted to push these things through then they would have had an uphill battle from all the pigs at the trough. It seems the junta is facing the same resistance though more muted, going by the nonsense and wriggling talk going on by those involved rather than action to stop these barbaric practices.

How it all turns out down the line and how the democratic machinery gets fixed (which it must), only time will tell.

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[timewilltell]

So is the suggestion they remove the 'Made in Thauland' label to avoid the issue. Why is it Thais never deal with the core problems but will spend an inordinate amount of effort in hiding, diverting attention and misleading the truth. It would be so much cheaper to set up a task force of say 500 soldiers to root out the perpetrators and get a grip of the situation. Send them down with a team of reporters with complete freedom of reporting what was found. Tier two would be just around the corner. All this bull from the people involved is getting tedious.

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I support almost all of what you say but given history and the current situation you may be being a little too optimistic.

reporters with complete freedom of reporting

This is another long standing Thai problem particularly acute at this current time due to complete media control being exercised by the military. Who in their right mind would believe anything reported by the press.

As for pretending that this issue will just go away I think the Thai authorities (I mean the General) are in total denial.

In fact given the current situation everything that is reported has to fit the world view of a single individual. This is incredibly risky in the long term. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press are not just nice liberal touchy feely traditions they are absolutely vital to have a society that is progressive and able to make real progress.

I have just returned from the UK. There I would have no concerns about stating my views and would not fear criticizing the powers that be. I am a little concerned that I may have overstepped the mark here in Thailand (the land of the free) the powers that be do not like criticism. Debate is being stifled at every turn.

Thailand I fear will become more isolated the longer free debate and reporting are suppressed. The really destructive corruption will just become deeper embedded since it will be beyond the reach of the press or individual reporting or criticism.

Yes maybe i am being a little too optimistic and freedom of the press and for open debate is vital to progress and a healthy democracy. The argument against if at the moment is to give the new administration time to prove itself and stop further rhetoric in the news which was stirring up and inciting division. I would like to see the defamation laws rescinded or wholly rewritten and the lese majeste laws revised to a much more direct and narrow focus - maybe in time.

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