NACC to file case against Ms Yingluck to the prosecution on Tuesday

[ginjag]

I didn't say 'she governed superbly'  I said it's ridiculous to charge a former PM criminally because the opposition, an opposition that is clearly against democracy or elected government in the first place, says her policies were 'wasteful'  EVERY opposition in every country accuses the other guy of being wasteful..

 

and ok why isn't the 'guy' who purchased that aircraft carrier in jail, krayprayoon or cheekpai or whoever.. like evey pm that committed 'waste' is going to that Thai prison with the drug dealers and rapists and murderers.. show me a democracy where that happenes

 

Face the music?  Show me one democrat or yellowshirt thug that is doing time in the hellish Thai prison system, lets remember that Thailand has no 'white collar' rpison like they do in the west.. here we're talking about sending Yingluck to prison because she initiated a policy that was meant to help this countries mostly poor farmers..  where is the proof that she personally benefited from this subsidy?  there is no evidence that Yingluck was committing graft and personally enriching herself as a result of this farm subsidy.

 

what exactly do you people mean when you say the PhuaThai party is 'not democratic'  supposedly they 'abuse power' or they are 'controlled' by Thaksin.. Thaksin has alot of influence among the PhuaThai, redshirt group, therefore he is 'controlling' PT isn't anymore 'undemocratic' than any other party.. because they win elections by a wide margin-they are called dictators..

 

1.    It was that a wide margin win they had to form a coalition ??

2.   Yingluck was not charged because of any opposition she was charged for the reasons she appeared for.

3.   The aircraft carrier deal was done BEFORE Abhisit arrived as P.M.

4.   Yellow thugs again  ???   I see Jutaporn is not in jail, you sort of said red shirts seem to get jailed, so here is the worst one of the lot NOT in jail  ???

5.   Wasteful  ???    or completely corrupt   there is a difference.

 

6.   The policy to help the poor farmers,  the ones with the vast  farms or the ones with a football field size ???  and why were they not paid when the government were in power BEFORE Suthep arrived on the scene.  the PTP blamed everyone but themselves for not paying the farmer but it has been proved it was just bad admin/neglect.

 

7.   Red shirt villages/group/paid for/non violent--Think back to BKK.  you call them democratic ???

 

8.   Suppose no PTP member benefitted it's all been concocted up, that's why they got kicked out, stupid when they had the power and in government they shot themselves in the foot.

[Mmorris]

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program

 

 

:cheesy: Understatement of the Year nominee

"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht  (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html

 

 

that's quite a lot for "some"

[ginjag]

 

 

 

The PTP stopped paying the farmers what they were owed in September 2013 so yet another lie nailed down.

 

Can you explain as an avid PTP supporter just WHY they stopped paying the farmers?
 

 

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

You did NOT answer the question.   Why did the PTP not pay the farmers most from July August September when they had the money  ???

 

The NCPO paid out the money owed to the farmers, that Yingluck failed to do.

 

I think I covered the points made.  simple.    When you owe money you pay --ok.  The corrupt bit of your post has nothing to do with the dishonest non payment.  The whole package was corrupt YES.  but the farmer still wanted paying --get it.

[Mmorris]

It's clever . . . if she returns she gets to defend herself in Court, if she doesn't return, the Junta can vilify her in public and call a spade a spade to all her loyal supporters, just like her Daddy Brother . . .

 
Good catch as although both Thaksin and Yingluck have both personally made statements that can cloud the issue, eg.

She described Thaksin as her "second father"

and

Thaksin said, "I raised her like my eldest daughter"

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-06-16/thaksin-looms-in-thai-vote-as-yingluck-lead-deters-investors.html

 

and even though Thaksin was certainly old enough (18 years old) to be her biological father when she was born, they are, in fact, brother and sister as your corrected post indicates.

 

.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Mmorris

[brucec64]

 

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program

 

 

Understatement of the Year nominee

"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht  (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html

 

 

that's quite a lot for "some"

 

 

The error in the statement is that the 500 billion baht was "damage" to the country. This was a subsidy program and the funds were not lost, they were distributed to the farmers. A subsidy, by defintion, is not a profit making measure. The junta even claimed that distributing the remaining 90 billion baht would give a 0.2% boost to the economy:

 

 

"Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, who is overseeing economic matters for the junta, told reporters after meeting top civil servants that the rice payments could add 0.2 percentage point to economic growth this year.

He said that would be on top of forecast 2 percent growth. That is the middle of the range forecast by the NESDB planning agency, which compiles Thailand's GDP figures."

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/thailand-politics-economy-idUSL3N0OC24Z20140526

 

Therefore, by that logic, if 90 billion added 0.2% to the economy, then 500 billion added over 1% of growth to the economic growth. This program was no different than any deficit financing program used by most countries in the world to stimulate economic growth.

[Bakseeda]

 

smutcakes post # 22.

 

If there was corruption in the rice scheme, what did the NCPO do to close these loop  holes before paying the 90 bn baht that the farmers were owed?

 

 

 The monies were paid to the farmers not those running the rice pledging scam scheme.

 

Shame on you sir.

 

Surely you aren't insinuating that it was the farmers that were corrupt are you, and as a result of course the power's that were were indeed totally innocent of any misdeeds?

 

 

   Herein lies the corruption charges ......   Most of the tax-payers monies that were lost in the rice-pledging scheme were NOT paid to farmers ...  in fact very little of the monies were paid directly to farmers..  certain people in power were running tons and tons of cheap rice from Cambodia and Myanmar and selling it at a huge profit to the PTP government. Also many millers bought up bad quality rice from farmers and sold it as high quality to the scheme..  There were so many different scams going on within the rice pledging scheme, most all initiated by members of the PTP ..  and their families..    follow the money trail is where the evidence lies...

[Mmorris]

:cheesy:

 

^^ Love your "logic" gymnastics

 

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by Mmorris

[jaidam]

 

It's clever . . . if she returns she gets to defend herself in Court, if she doesn't return, the Junta can vilify her in public and call a spade a spade to all her loyal supporters, just like her Daddy Brother . . .

 
Good catch as although both Thaksin and Yingluck have both personally made statements that can cloud the issue, eg.

She described Thaksin as her "second father"

and

Thaksin said, "I raised her like my eldest daughter"

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-06-16/thaksin-looms-in-thai-vote-as-yingluck-lead-deters-investors.html

 

and even though Thaksin was certainly old enough (18 years old) to be her biological father when she was born, they are, in fact, brother and sister as your corrected post indicates.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 Not strictly relevant to this thread, but there is no evidence whatsoever to prove that Thaksin is Yingluck's brother as opposed to father. It could be either way. As a family of habitual liars, anything they claim should be taken either with a pinch of salt or more likely the opposite of the truth.

 

 Until the time the 2 runaways agree to DNA testing none of us will be any the wiser.
 

[khunken]

 

 

 

 

The PTP stopped paying the farmers what they were owed in September 2013 so yet another lie nailed down.

 

Can you explain as an avid PTP supporter just WHY they stopped paying the farmers?
 

 

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

You did NOT answer the question.   Why did the PTP not pay the farmers most from July August September when they had the money  ???

 

The NCPO paid out the money owed to the farmers, that Yingluck failed to do.

 

I think I covered the points made.  simple.    When you owe money you pay --ok.  The corrupt bit of your post has nothing to do with the dishonest non payment.  The whole package was corrupt YES.  but the farmer still wanted paying --get it.

 

 

His 'questions' are loaded with implicit lies.

 

There was no evidence whatsoever that the payments to the farmers were fraudulent. They pledged their rice, received vouchers for payment and the NCPO paid the money that PTP 'forgot' to cater for.

 

It's a simple case of honouring a promise of payment. The corruption was elsewhere - in the rice mills (possibly), warehouses (definitely) and false claims of selling rice to other governments - PTP's remit.

 

His loaded effort to imply the NCPO were complicit is a big FAIL.

 

[Mmorris]

now bringing in loads of the Yingluck evidence....
 


 

 

English News » Anti-graft agency NACC carries 30 files on ex-PM Yingluck's rice pledging scheme case to Attorney General for legal action

 

.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Mmorris

[Tatsujin]

 

It's clever . . . if she returns she gets to defend herself in Court, if she doesn't return, the Junta can vilify her in public and call a spade a spade to all her loyal supporters, just like her Daddy Brother . . .

 

"if she doesn't return, the Junta can vilify her in public and call a spade a spade to all her loyal supporters, just like her Daddy Brother"

 

I'll ignore your oh so subtle attempt to make yourself (and by extension the Forum) the subject of a defamation suit by saying that Yingluck was fathered by Thaksin ( a pathetic rumour only perpetuated by the educationally challenged) and ask you just how well did the vilification of Thaksin work out for the military junta of 2006/2007? 

 

 

You can ignore or acknowledge whatever you wish.

 

If any post here is liable to criminal action, I'm sure the Mods will remove it post haste.

 

As for the vilification, I was referring to vilifying Yingluck alone actually . . . but calling her a spade just like her Brother . . . i.e. a two-faced, lying, cheating, think nothing of anyone but themselves, immoral etc <deleted>.

 

Ask the Junta from 2006 how well it worked. But now in 2014, it seems to be going quite well so far.

[khunken]

 

 

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program

 

 

Understatement of the Year nominee

"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht  (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html

 

 

that's quite a lot for "some"

 

 

The error in the statement is that the 500 billion baht was "damage" to the country. This was a subsidy program and the funds were not lost, they were distributed to the farmers. A subsidy, by defintion, is not a profit making measure. The junta even claimed that distributing the remaining 90 billion baht would give a 0.2% boost to the economy:

 

 

"Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, who is overseeing economic matters for the junta, told reporters after meeting top civil servants that the rice payments could add 0.2 percentage point to economic growth this year.

He said that would be on top of forecast 2 percent growth. That is the middle of the range forecast by the NESDB planning agency, which compiles Thailand's GDP figures."

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/thailand-politics-economy-idUSL3N0OC24Z20140526

 

Therefore, by that logic, if 90 billion added 0.2% to the economy, then 500 billion added over 1% of growth to the economic growth. This program was no different than any deficit financing program used by most countries in the world to stimulate economic growth.

 

 

You don't seem to know what logic is and it's not by starting with a false premise and then extrapolating that into a 'good' result.

 

First there is no evidence that anywhere near all of the B500bn went to the farmers. You seemed to have missed the missing & lower quality than logged rice that has been widely publicised in the media as well as TV. That's just the warehouses, the rice mills have yet to be audited and the money that rice farmers had to borrow from loan sharks and others before getting paid would have reduced economic growth. Add to that the lost opportunity cost of all that rice sitting in warehouses (and deteriorating) and you have a hugely wasteful 'rice mountain'.

 

So the 0.2% that could (note: could) have added to the economy was correcting what was lost (0.2%?) due to non-payment by the PTP. Subsidies can add or subtract to/from economic growth and it is possible that the rice subsidy added a tiny amount which, if it did, could have been so much higher without the corruption and mismanagement.
 

[billd766]

RE smutcakes at post #33

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

 

Yes the NCPO paid the outstanding monies to the farmers.

 

No the NCPO actually told the farmers that they would be paid as did the PTP. The big difference is that the NCPO actually started the payments on the date they said and paid them all off. The PTP lied to the farmers for months and didn't pay them.

 

If there was corruption in the scheme the NCPO did NOT do the same thing as the PTP, but they did honour the existing debt which the PTP reneged on a weekly basis, THEN the NCPO closed the scheme down.

 

What is the difference between the NCPO and the PTP?

 

The NCPO acts with honour and the PTP has no idea what honour means.

[Mmorris]

4,000 pages of documents were delivered to the Office of the Attorney General Tuesday

[smutcakes]

 

 

 

 

 

The PTP stopped paying the farmers what they were owed in September 2013 so yet another lie nailed down.

 

Can you explain as an avid PTP supporter just WHY they stopped paying the farmers?
 

 

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

You did NOT answer the question.   Why did the PTP not pay the farmers most from July August September when they had the money  ???

 

The NCPO paid out the money owed to the farmers, that Yingluck failed to do.

 

I think I covered the points made.  simple.    When you owe money you pay --ok.  The corrupt bit of your post has nothing to do with the dishonest non payment.  The whole package was corrupt YES.  but the farmer still wanted paying --get it.

 

 

His 'questions' are loaded with implicit lies.

 

There was no evidence whatsoever that the payments to the farmers were fraudulent. They pledged their rice, received vouchers for payment and the NCPO paid the money that PTP 'forgot' to cater for.

 

It's a simple case of honouring a promise of payment. The corruption was elsewhere - in the rice mills (possibly), warehouses (definitely) and false claims of selling rice to other governments - PTP's remit.

 

His loaded effort to imply the NCPO were complicit is a big FAIL.

 

 

 

Khunken you stance innocent until proven guilty in court in one of the Israeli-Hamas topics, puts you on very sticky wicket here.

 

I never said the rice scheme was good, or did not have corruption issues.

 

I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease.

 

 

[Thai at Heart]

 Yingluck is caught between a rock and a hard place. If she wasn't aware of the endemic corruption she is negligent, if she was aware she was complicit. Her lawyers will be turning cartwheels over this. I could have told her that taking on the rice scheme chairwoman's role would end in tears. That is because the rice scheme was an ill conceived disaster that was bound to ruin the Thai rice industry.

 

 I realize the NACC is only following procedure, but I do wish they would wait until she is safely home before filing other charges. Deers caught in the headlights are notoriously flighty, and this skitterish beast has already bolted.

 

 

You are correct to a degree.  However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction.  

 

She might be worthy of being dismissed from the job, but to be sanctioned to a criminal level?  There wouldn't be a boss in any company anywhere in the world who would pass this test.  

 

First of all they have to prove corruption in the whole system to a level that would have been necessary to reach her table anyway.  By that, I mean something that goes beyond Somchai in Yasothon nicking stuff.  It will be a very interesting case no doubt, and I guess will put paid to any plans to ever subsidise Thai farmers for anything.  

[Thai at Heart]

4,000 pages of documents were delivered to the Office of the Attorney General Tuesday

 

Wow.  I wonder who got the trucking contract for that?

[northernjohn]

 

 

 

 

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

You did NOT answer the question.   Why did the PTP not pay the farmers most from July August September when they had the money  ???

 

The NCPO paid out the money owed to the farmers, that Yingluck failed to do.

 

I think I covered the points made.  simple.    When you owe money you pay --ok.  The corrupt bit of your post has nothing to do with the dishonest non payment.  The whole package was corrupt YES.  but the farmer still wanted paying --get it.

 

 

His 'questions' are loaded with implicit lies.

 

There was no evidence whatsoever that the payments to the farmers were fraudulent. They pledged their rice, received vouchers for payment and the NCPO paid the money that PTP 'forgot' to cater for.

 

It's a simple case of honouring a promise of payment. The corruption was elsewhere - in the rice mills (possibly), warehouses (definitely) and false claims of selling rice to other governments - PTP's remit.

 

His loaded effort to imply the NCPO were complicit is a big FAIL.

 

 

 

Khunken you stance innocent until proven guilty in court in one of the Israeli-Hamas topics, puts you on very sticky wicket here.

 

I never said the rice scheme was good, or did not have corruption issues.

 

I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease.

 

 

 

 

You mislead us with

 

"I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease."

 

The fact is that the PTP had stopped paying the farmers and the NCPO just paid them. No excuses just money. Big difference.

[Old Man River]

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program

Understatement of the Year nominee
"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"
http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html


that's quite a lot for "some"

The error in the statement is that the 500 billion baht was "damage" to the country. This was a subsidy program and the funds were not lost, they were distributed to the farmers. A subsidy, by defintion, is not a profit making measure. The junta even claimed that distributing the remaining 90 billion baht would give a 0.2% boost to the economy:


"Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, who is overseeing economic matters for the junta, told reporters after meeting top civil servants that the rice payments could add 0.2 percentage point to economic growth this year.
He said that would be on top of forecast 2 percent growth. That is the middle of the range forecast by the NESDB planning agency, which compiles Thailand's GDP figures."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/thailand-politics-economy-idUSL3N0OC24Z20140526

Therefore, by that logic, if 90 billion added 0.2% to the economy, then 500 billion added over 1% of growth to the economic growth. This program was no different than any deficit financing program used by most countries in the world to stimulate economic growth.

Most countries don't use their country's coffers to speculate in the commodities markets (maybe none). While most countries do pay subsidizes, this was over the top.

In fact, if it was so normal, why did the IMF advise YL to scale it back?


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[smutcakes]

 

 

 

You mislead us with

 

"I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease."

 

The fact is that the PTP had stopped paying the farmers and the NCPO just paid them. No excuses just money. Big difference.

 

 

Okay so PTP stopped paying them as it was riddled with corruption. The NCPO paid them despite knowing it was riddled in corruption. They should be hung for negligence. Is that better?

[jaidam]

 

 Yingluck is caught between a rock and a hard place. If she wasn't aware of the endemic corruption she is negligent, if she was aware she was complicit. Her lawyers will be turning cartwheels over this. I could have told her that taking on the rice scheme chairwoman's role would end in tears. That is because the rice scheme was an ill conceived disaster that was bound to ruin the Thai rice industry.

 

 I realize the NACC is only following procedure, but I do wish they would wait until she is safely home before filing other charges. Deers caught in the headlights are notoriously flighty, and this skitterish beast has already bolted.

 

 

You are correct to a degree.  However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction.  

 

She might be worthy of being dismissed from the job, but to be sanctioned to a criminal level?  There wouldn't be a boss in any company anywhere in the world who would pass this test.  

 

First of all they have to prove corruption in the whole system to a level that would have been necessary to reach her table anyway.  By that, I mean something that goes beyond Somchai in Yasothon nicking stuff.  It will be a very interesting case no doubt, and I guess will put paid to any plans to ever subsidise Thai farmers for anything.  

 

 

"However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction."

 

 Are you saying that she was not warned the scheme was rife with corruption at every stage? She was, it's fact. How did she react to the warnings? She fired Supa Piyajitti for blowing the whistle and orchestrated a whitchhunt against Supa trying to scuttle her credibility.

 

 Did one of the Democrats not take rotten rice into parliament to show all? You remember what happened? Nutthawut tried to get him arrested for trespass and theft!

 

 Did the opposition show the paper evidence that one of the red elites and his wife had been roundtripping the rice? Again yes.

 

 Your argument that Yingluck was not warned is nonsense, why even bother to make such a patently false claim. Yingluck , chairwoman of the rice scheme, was warned repeatedly from onshore and offshore institutions, but chose to do absolutely nothing apart from claim the scheme was a grand success.

[Thai at Heart]

 

 

 

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program
 

Understatement of the Year nominee
"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"
http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html


that's quite a lot for "some"

The error in the statement is that the 500 billion baht was "damage" to the country. This was a subsidy program and the funds were not lost, they were distributed to the farmers. A subsidy, by defintion, is not a profit making measure. The junta even claimed that distributing the remaining 90 billion baht would give a 0.2% boost to the economy:


"Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, who is overseeing economic matters for the junta, told reporters after meeting top civil servants that the rice payments could add 0.2 percentage point to economic growth this year.
He said that would be on top of forecast 2 percent growth. That is the middle of the range forecast by the NESDB planning agency, which compiles Thailand's GDP figures."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/thailand-politics-economy-idUSL3N0OC24Z20140526

Therefore, by that logic, if 90 billion added 0.2% to the economy, then 500 billion added over 1% of growth to the economic growth. This program was no different than any deficit financing program used by most countries in the world to stimulate economic growth.

Most countries don't use their country's coffers to speculate in the commodities markets (maybe none). While most countries do pay subsidizes, this was over the top.

In fact, if it was so normal, why did the IMF advise YL to scale it back?


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

 

This is however, part of the nature of the disucssion about governments and their policies.  If a democratically appointed govt decides to subsidise something, does it justify a coup to remove them from office.

 

Note.  What was the debt to GDP ratio when PTP took over and what was it when they left? 

 

The developed and many developing world countries subsidise agribusiness for all sorts of reasons.  Why is Thailand finding it so hard to come up with a system where everyone says.  "yes this is morally and societally correct that we take care of our farmers ", for whichever reason you can come up with.  Naitonal security, food security, or just because you want to make sure the poor don't live in abject poverty.  I would be happy if they subsidised them hugely, but cut production to reduce the amount for export.  I don't see the necessity to chase exports with subsidised production.  That benfits only the epxorters.

[siampolee]

smutcakes post # 25

I stand to be corrected by you, but the money was paid out in exactly the same way as it was done under the PTP Govt. If that is the case and there is corruption in the scheme, then the good General is every bit as guilty as YS. Maybe why he let her leave the country...... also he has an amnesty.....

 

I stand to be corrected by you,

 

You sir are an honorable poster by virtue of the fact you actually reply and acknowledge any points proven to be in error.

 

​The mark of an intelligent poster

 

We  rarely agree as we both know, however I have respect  for you as opposed to the other supporters of the  Shinwatra ideals.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2014 by siampolee

[webfact]

Graft buster officially charges Yingluck



BANGKOK: -- The National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) submitted its criminal case file against former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra regarding the rice pledging scheme to the Office of the Attorney-General (OAG) on Tuesday.

The NACC accused Yingluck of malfeasance in office under Article 157 of the Criminal Code for her gross negligence in overseeing the scheme causing enormous 500 billion baht loss to the state coffers.

OAG spokesperson Mrs Santanee Disayabutr said the OAG would set up a special team led by its deputy chief to look into all the charges and the evidences.

If there are substantial evidence in the report, the OAG could then proceed the prosecution in the Supreme Court’s Criminal Division for Holders of Political Posts, she said.

Since the case is the focal interest of the public, the OAG will undertake it with care and base on the NACC’s reports.

She said if all evidence are proved, it could then proceed the prosecution in 30 days.

Asked if the prosecution would be obstructed when the accused is still abroad, she assured that the prosecution will go ahead although she does not show up, reasoning that at this stage, it is not necessary yet for her to appear as having her current permanent residence known is enough.

Yingluck’s lawyer is scheduled to petition the OAG against the NACC’s charges Wednesday.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/graft-buster-officially-charges-yingluck/

[thaipbs]2014-08-05[/thaipbs]

[Thai at Heart]

 

 

 Yingluck is caught between a rock and a hard place. If she wasn't aware of the endemic corruption she is negligent, if she was aware she was complicit. Her lawyers will be turning cartwheels over this. I could have told her that taking on the rice scheme chairwoman's role would end in tears. That is because the rice scheme was an ill conceived disaster that was bound to ruin the Thai rice industry.

 

 I realize the NACC is only following procedure, but I do wish they would wait until she is safely home before filing other charges. Deers caught in the headlights are notoriously flighty, and this skitterish beast has already bolted.

 

 

You are correct to a degree.  However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction.  

 

She might be worthy of being dismissed from the job, but to be sanctioned to a criminal level?  There wouldn't be a boss in any company anywhere in the world who would pass this test.  

 

First of all they have to prove corruption in the whole system to a level that would have been necessary to reach her table anyway.  By that, I mean something that goes beyond Somchai in Yasothon nicking stuff.  It will be a very interesting case no doubt, and I guess will put paid to any plans to ever subsidise Thai farmers for anything.  

 

 

"However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction."

 

 Are you saying that she was not warned the scheme was rife with corruption at every stage? She was, it's fact. How did she react to the warnings? She fired Supa Piyajitti for blowing the whistle and orchestrated a whitchhunt against Supa trying to scuttle her credibility.

 

 Did one of the Democrats not take rotten rice into parliament to show all? You remember what happened? Nutthawut tried to get him arrested for trespass and theft!

 

 Did the opposition show the paper evidence that one of the red elites and his wife had been roundtripping the rice? Again yes.

 

 Your argument that Yingluck was not warned is nonsense, why even bother to make such a patently false claim. Yingluck , chairwoman of the rice scheme, was warned repeatedly from onshore and offshore institutions, but chose to do absolutely nothing apart from claim the scheme was a grand success.

 

 

 

Warned by who?  Rotten rice is not a sign of mass scale corruption any more than a rotten bunch of bananas on the shelf in Tescos is.  It is not even evidence of negligence, when in reality the best decision for storage and yield loss by moving product around is to actually leave it exactly where it is and accept that in a year a given volume is going to go mouldy.  

 

I hope they prove the roundtripping of the rice.  Why hasn't anyone been convicted of that yet?  Shouldn't be hard should.  

 

You may say my arguement is nonsense, but if politicians jumped every time a political opponent accused them of something, that would be nonsense also.  As yet, there is some proof of someone nicking some stuff from a warehouse and putting up some scaffolding.  

 

They need to prove she willingly ignored and refused to investigate any corruption or illegal activity in the process.  Good luck

[northernjohn]

Thailand is the only nation that can charge a PM with criminal acts by supporting a Gov't Bill that fails. She did not run this program, the Commerce Dept. ran this program! It is very different if she personally supported illegal acts etc.. but to have supported a Failed Gov't program ??  Seems crazy.

 

Is it illegal to support the Police Force of Thailand IF you know that yes, there is significant corruption in Thai Police Force? (Now every Thai knows this, so is it illegal to support the Thai Police?)  Crazy.

 

There is not a leader in the free world that has not supported a program that has failed to live up to expectations.

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program, but you find/charge those that executed the fraud, not those that supported the program.  Seems petty to me.

 

There is no way she will get a fair trial during a Junta Gov't. Cards are stacked against her, just as they were with her Brother.

 

 

You forget to mention that not only did she support it which in it's self is legal but she was the chairperson of the Committee that administered it. In other words she was a part of the corruption.

 

As for a fair trial I am not up on that but I believe that most of the judges were the asame ones under the PTP leadership. I see no problem there.

 

Just as a footnote remember that as the Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra cut back on the budget for the commission looking into corruption then chaired the committee with the most corruption.

Coincidence I think not

[khunken]

 

 

 

 

 

Where have i lied? Just relax and read the post.

 

The NCPO paid out the outstanding monies owed to the farmers? Yes or No?

The NCPO paid out the monies in exactly the same way as the previous Govt Yes or No?

So if there was corruption in the scheme, the NCPO has done exactly the same thing as the PTP Govt Yes or No?

 

I am not sure i can say it any simpler.

 

 

You did NOT answer the question.   Why did the PTP not pay the farmers most from July August September when they had the money  ???

 

The NCPO paid out the money owed to the farmers, that Yingluck failed to do.

 

I think I covered the points made.  simple.    When you owe money you pay --ok.  The corrupt bit of your post has nothing to do with the dishonest non payment.  The whole package was corrupt YES.  but the farmer still wanted paying --get it.

 

 

His 'questions' are loaded with implicit lies.

 

There was no evidence whatsoever that the payments to the farmers were fraudulent. They pledged their rice, received vouchers for payment and the NCPO paid the money that PTP 'forgot' to cater for.

 

It's a simple case of honouring a promise of payment. The corruption was elsewhere - in the rice mills (possibly), warehouses (definitely) and false claims of selling rice to other governments - PTP's remit.

 

His loaded effort to imply the NCPO were complicit is a big FAIL.

 

 

 

Khunken you stance innocent until proven guilty in court in one of the Israeli-Hamas topics, puts you on very sticky wicket here.

 

I never said the rice scheme was good, or did not have corruption issues.

 

I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease.

 

 

 

 

Don't know what you mean about a post on the Israeli-Hamas topic which is off topic here anyway.

 

The point of you implying (before) and now stating that what the NCPO is negligent is an untruth. Do you not understand that fulfilling the promise of payment to debt-riddled farmers is the opposite of negligence? Those farmers were victims of a severe case of 'forgetfulness' by PTP and had been kept waiting long enough (too long for the suicide cases).

 

Just because there was negligence and corruption (which was and still is being investigated) any right-minded organisation wouldn't penalise innocent victims because of unrelated (again: unrelated) malfeasance.

 

Might I suggest that you don't dig any bigger a hole for your claim.
 

[Thanet]

 

 

 

smutcakes post # 22.

 

If there was corruption in the rice scheme, what did the NCPO do to close these loop  holes before paying the 90 bn baht that the farmers were owed?

 

 

 The monies were paid to the farmers not those running the rice pledging scam scheme.

 

Shame on you sir.

 

Surely you aren't insinuating that it was the farmers that were corrupt are you, and as a result of course the power's that were were indeed totally innocent of any misdeeds?

 

 

I stand to be corrected by you, but the money was paid out in exactly the same way as it was done under the PTP Govt. If that is the case and there is corruption in the scheme, then the good General is every bit as guilty as YS. Maybe why he let her leave the country...... also he has an amnesty.....

 

 

The PTP stopped paying the farmers what they were owed in September 2013 so yet another lie nailed down.

 

Can you explain as an avid PTP supporter just WHY they stopped paying the farmers?
 

 

 

The old government was strangled financially by the coup plotters. Parliament was prevented from operating and passing the annual budget, and banks 'refused' to lend because the government's position was made so tenuous by street protesters who were 'allowed' to run amok.

 

As soon as the NCPO took over, they passed the budget, and paid the farmers from the budget that they themselves approved.

 

Easy when you have the power.

[Robby nz]

 

 

 

 

You mislead us with

 

"I simply pointed out that the NCPO continuing to pay farmers money they were owed, whilst seemingly being aware of mass corruption which we read everyday, is negligent at the very lease."

 

The fact is that the PTP had stopped paying the farmers and the NCPO just paid them. No excuses just money. Big difference.

 

 

Okay so PTP stopped paying them as it was riddled with corruption. The NCPO paid them despite knowing it was riddled in corruption. They should be hung for negligence. Is that better?

 

 

NO

 

PTP did not stop paying the farmers because of corruption... that is an outright lie.

 

The NCPO paid the farmers as it was not a PTP debt or Yinglucks debt but a debt owed by the country which had not been paid by the PT Govt.

 

Got that ?

 

It was a debt owed to the farmers by the country for a product the farmers had sold to the country through the previous Govt and the farmers had papers to prove they had sold the rice and were owed that money. Absolutely nothing to do with corruption, an outstanding debt..........Right ?

 

The ACPO then stopped the scheme and set up a national audit of rice warehouses to look into and ascertain just how much rice was missing and of poor quality, we still await the results of that inspection although preliminary reports suggest.

 

Yes they as you say the NCPO know the scheme is riddled with corruption and are going about proving it.

[Tatsujin]

 

 

 Yingluck is caught between a rock and a hard place. If she wasn't aware of the endemic corruption she is negligent, if she was aware she was complicit. Her lawyers will be turning cartwheels over this. I could have told her that taking on the rice scheme chairwoman's role would end in tears. That is because the rice scheme was an ill conceived disaster that was bound to ruin the Thai rice industry.
 
 I realize the NACC is only following procedure, but I do wish they would wait until she is safely home before filing other charges. Deers caught in the headlights are notoriously flighty, and this skitterish beast has already bolted.

 
 
You are correct to a degree.  However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction.  
 
She might be worthy of being dismissed from the job, but to be sanctioned to a criminal level?  There wouldn't be a boss in any company anywhere in the world who would pass this test.  
 
First of all they have to prove corruption in the whole system to a level that would have been necessary to reach her table anyway.  By that, I mean something that goes beyond Somchai in Yasothon nicking stuff.  It will be a very interesting case no doubt, and I guess will put paid to any plans to ever subsidise Thai farmers for anything.  
 

 
"However, if no one tells you, how can you be guilty of inaction."
 
 Are you saying that she was not warned the scheme was rife with corruption at every stage? She was, it's fact. How did she react to the warnings? She fired Supa Piyajitti for blowing the whistle and orchestrated a whitchhunt against Supa trying to scuttle her credibility.
 
 Did one of the Democrats not take rotten rice into parliament to show all? You remember what happened? Nutthawut tried to get him arrested for trespass and theft!
 
 Did the opposition show the paper evidence that one of the red elites and his wife had been roundtripping the rice? Again yes.
 
 Your argument that Yingluck was not warned is nonsense, why even bother to make such a patently false claim. Yingluck , chairwoman of the rice scheme, was warned repeatedly from onshore and offshore institutions, but chose to do absolutely nothing apart from claim the scheme was a grand success.
 

 
 
Warned by who?  Rotten rice is not a sign of mass scale corruption any more than a rotten bunch of bananas on the shelf in Tescos is.  It is not even evidence of negligence, when in reality the best decision for storage and yield loss by moving product around is to actually leave it exactly where it is and accept that in a year a given volume is going to go mouldy.  
 
I hope they prove the roundtripping of the rice.  Why hasn't anyone been convicted of that yet?  Shouldn't be hard should.  
 
You may say my arguement is nonsense, but if politicians jumped every time a political opponent accused them of something, that would be nonsense also.  As yet, there is some proof of someone nicking some stuff from a warehouse and putting up some scaffolding.  
 
They need to prove she willingly ignored and refused to investigate any corruption or illegal activity in the process.  Good luck

Let me think ... does her stating categorically that there was no corruption or negligence in public on a number of occasions count?