confusing /conflicting advice from visa lawyer in uk

[Jay Sata]

It would be nice if that was the case because as a taxpayer I would not be funding so called asylum seekers who flush their passports down the toilet en-route to the UK from Africa or Asia.

Very few airlines in the world employ their own check in staff. That duty is assigned to handling agents. The sort of complicated residence rights we are talking about here are way beyond the ability of the average check in person at BKK. The odds are that if Mrs Dirtycash had plenty of stamps in her passport confirming travel between the UK/Eire and Thailand she would board with no problem. If she was allowed to depart Dublin for BKK on the out leg why would they question her return?

I would point out to you 7by7 that airlines cannot deny boarding on a whim. Once you buy a ticket a contract exists.

Many airlines are now facing huge financial claims by passengers delayed in the past and not compensated.

Airlines cannot just take your money and write their own rules. The threat of fines would be great if they were imposed as most of the ferry operators doing the Calais Dover trip would be paying the government huge sums every year for shipping in illegal immigrants.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Richard W]

It would be nice if that was the case because as a taxpayer I would not be funding so called asylum seekers who flush their passports down the toilet en-route to the UK from Africa or Asia.

Throwing them off the plane in flight would be dangerous and disproportionate.

The threat of fines would be great if they were imposed as most of the ferry operators doing the Calais Dover trip would be paying the government huge sums every year for shipping in illegal immigrants.

Stowaways on lorries bring fines for the drivers and hauliers. I've seen it pointed out that if a stowaway is detected after passing UK immigration and before leaving the port, it's in the driver's financial interest to do nothing until he's passed Canterbury.

[7by7]

I would point out to you 7by7 that airlines cannot deny boarding on a whim. Once you buy a ticket a contract exists.

Indeed, a contract which is subject to, among other things, the airline's conditions of carriage; which the passenger accepts by agreeing to purchase the ticket. Read the small print on the back of the ticket!

I am amazed that someone who is as experienced a world traveller as you claim to be does not know this!

Asylum seekers are a long and complex issue; not really relevant to this topic.

Having said that, those who arrive at a UK port of entry by air must have had some form of acceptable UK entry clearance, e.g. a visit or student visa, or the airline would not have carried them. They then claim asylum once here.

Asylum seekers who enter, or attempt to enter, illegally by other means from the Continent or Republic of Ireland are a different matter.

[bobrussell]

Airlines can refuse to board anyone they choose. Clearly anyone refused boarding could have legal redress through the courts. It would be bad PR to be obstructive to people with tickets but the fines for getting it wrong are substantial.

The onus remains with the traveller to provide the correct documentation for travel.

[Jay Sata]

We have drifted a long way off thread.

I suggest the OP contacts INIS in Dublin to sort the problem out.

[dirtycash]

I have contacted inis. One email says she needs a visa free of charge another email says she needs to pay for a visa. Ill just keep in touch with inis

[Liquorice]

Read section 3 and 4 of the Irish Immigration Act, I think it answers the question.

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/travel/Immigration-act-2004.pdf

If I am reading and understanding correctly, a family member of an EEA citizen can spend up to 3 months in Ireland without the need for a Visa.

However if they are travelling through Ireland to another EU state they need a valid Irish transit Visa.

[7by7]

Whatever answer is obtained from INIS, the main problem Mrs. Dirtycash is likely to face is checking in for her flight from Bangkok to Dublin.

If her airline are not satisfied that she has proper entry clearance for the Republic then they are within their rights to refuse to carry her.

Therefore I stand by my previous advice; obtain an Irish visa. It may have to be paid for, it may be free if INIS can be convinced that Surinder Singh applies.

Even if it does have to be paid for, surely that is better than risking being stranded in Bangkok while trying to convince the, or another, airline to carry her, and possibly having to purchase another ticket, or while applying for an Irish visa there?

Dirtycash, I know what I would do in your situation; but it is, of course, your decision.

[dirtycash]

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your

correspondence of 21/10/2014.

You will not be required to pay for the visa. You will need to contact the

Visa Office in London, where your application will be processed, to find

out their current processing times.

Kind regards,

Visa Customer Services

Visa Office, Dublin

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Visa Mail

Mail-In Query

From :

To: Visa Mail ,

cc:

Date : 21/10/2014

Subject: Re: visa status for EEA permit holder

[dirtycash]

The above is the latest reply i had fron INIS

[Richard W]

Read section 3 and 4 of the Irish Immigration Act, I think it answers the question.

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/travel/Immigration-act-2004.pdf

That's not the act, it's an order made under it. There are several references to this order in earlier posts.

If I am reading and understanding correctly, a family member of an EEA citizen can spend up to 3 months in Ireland without the need for a Visa.

You're not. You're primarily deducing this from Regulation 3 Part c. That says that the relevant foreign residence card is one issued under Section 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC, and one is needed. Most Thais in Britain aren't entitled to them. These cards are the ones sometimes known as 'temporary' residence cards. The residence cards referred to in Regulation 3 Part b are those issued by Ireland.

However if they are travelling through Ireland to another EU state they need a valid Irish transit Visa.

That (Regulation 4) only applies to 'transit visa nationals', those who generally need visas for airside transit. This category does not include Thais. Thailand has since been added to Schedule 2, but this only helps those with a visitor's visa.

[Liquorice]

Thanks for the clarification Richard.

It's certainly an unusual situation.

It seems the only choices are to fly from and to Belfast, which shouldn't create a problem but cost £100 more, or to get a Visa for Ireland to satisfy the airlines for the return flight, although it's not clear she actually needs one.

As dirtycash stated in a previous post, his wife has travelled between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland several times without the need for a Visa and without any problems. I suppose it's better to be safe than sorry, but I'm still not convinced she needs a Visa other than to satisfy the airline for the return flight from Bangkok.

[7by7]

The latest reply Dirtycash has received from the INIS appears to confirm that his wife needs a visa and that, unfortunately, presumably because he is an Irish citizen, she will have to pay for it.

As there are virtually no immigration controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic if travelling by road it is not surprising that Mrs. Dirtycash has been able to travel between the two countries without a visa previoulsy; as, I'm sure, have many others.

However, if one requires a visa for the Republic and one does so without one then one is actually in the Republic illegally.

As an aside, not applicable here, at present citizens of certain countries, including Thailand, who hold a UK visit visa valid for 6 months or less may use that to enter the Republic provided they do so via the UK and the visa will remain valid for the duration of their stay.

Although if crossing the border by land it is highly unlikely your passport will be checked, if travelling from Great Britain it probably will be.

Ireland: Crossing the Border

Arriving from Great Britain (mainland UK): As part of the Common Travel Area, British and Irish citizens are not formally required to have passport. They should, however, have some form of identification available to prove their nationality (such as a passport, birth certificate, etc). In practice, it is sensible for British and Irish citizens to have a passport. Citizens of all other countries must produce a valid passport (and a visa if necessary). Officers of the Garda National Immigration Bureau will check passports/identity papers at airports and ferry ports.

The same if one travels from the Republic to Northern Ireland or the Republic to Great Britain.

United Kingdom: Crossing the Border

British or Irish citizens do not require to show a passport when travelling between their respective countries, but those crossing by ferry or air from Northern / the Republic of Ireland to mainland UK will require photo identification. For non-UK or Ireland citizens, this will mean national identification cards or passports. Despite the absence of passport controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, non-EU citizens must be in possession of a UK visa (if necessary).

Inspection of the UK Border Agency in Scotland and Northern Ireland: Countering Abuse of the Common Travel Area is an interesting read.

[Jay Sata]

With respect I and others are aware of Tripadvisor and those of with Irish Passports or residency such as Mr Dirtycash do not need to avail ourselves of their advice on travel between the Six Counties and Eire.

INIS are more than happy to resolve this problem and in a typical Irish way. I suspect no doubt without fuss or charge.

They are the only people who can give you a result. You already know you can get a visa for your wife and despite what others say I think it will be free of charge.

However if you do not need a visa then a letter from them stating that is enough to satisfy the airline.

Despite some amazing suggestions from those that are not familiar with the island ,such as flights between Belfast and Dublin, my suggestion Mr Dirtycash is make an appointment with INIS ,you head off down the N1 and a couple of hours later you'll be in Burgh Key with an answer the same day.

Better still make it a two day trip with a hotel and evening in Temple Bar and you can stroll across the Halfpenny Bridge to INIS.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Jay Sata

[tullynagardy]

To the OP.

My wife and kids live in Belfast, she has FLR in the UK. We have flown to Thailand via Dublin several times in the last year. I always get her an Irish tourist visa and it is free of charge.

I have spoken to the immigration guys at Dublin airport who confirmed they would let her through no problem without (though technically she should have a visa) but as is pointed out above it saves hassle on the return leg. Getting the visa is ridiculously easy via the embassy in London ( I work in London and go direct but you can also do it via post) Once they see her right to remain in the UK it`s basically a formality.

On another note remember your wife is entitled to an Irish passport if shes been in NI more than a couple of years. (assumming your from NI) I find it amusing my wife has to apply for Irish visitor visa just now but in a few months time will be an Irish citizen!

Edited November 4, 2014 by tullynagardy

[7by7]

With respect I and others are aware of Tripadvisor and those of with Irish Passports or residency such as Mr Dirtycash do not need to avail ourselves of their advice on travel between the Six Counties and Eire.

The information was provided for the benefit of all.

Mrs Dirtycash has neither an Irish passport nor Irish residency; if she did this topic would never have been started!

INIS are more than happy to resolve this problem and in a typical Irish way. I suspect no doubt without fuss or charge.

They are the only people who can give you a result. You already know you can get a visa for your wife and despite what others say I think it will be free of charge.

However if you do not need a visa then a letter from them stating that is enough to satisfy the airline.

Despite some amazing suggestions from those that are not familiar with the island ,such as flights between Belfast and Dublin, my suggestion Mr Dirtycash is make an appointment with INIS ,you head off down the N1 and a couple of hours later you'll be in Burgh Key with an answer the same day.

Better still make it a two day trip with a hotel and evening in Temple Bar and you can stroll across the Halfpenny Bridge to INIS.

INIS have resolved the issue; they have said that Mrs Dirtycash needs a visa. They have also told her to apply to London.

I admit that I misread the last reply from them which he posted and that they do say it will be free. So what I said about paying for it in my last post is incorrect.

Although for clarification it would be good to know the exact question Dirtycash asked them; for example did he say that he is a dual Irish/British citizen and his wife is living in the UK under the EEA regulations, not the UK immigration rules?

Living in Northern Ireland and having to apply in London does seem daft, I am amazed that there is no Irish consulate in Northern Ireland; probably due to politics and the Republic's claim to sovereignty over the whole island.

Dirtycash, if you do take Jay Sata's advice and apply for your wife's Irish visa by driving down to Dublin (Burgh Quay, not Key) then I, for one, would be very interested to hear their reaction to someone applying for a visa to enter the Republic when that person is already in the Republic; possibly illegally!

[tullynagardy]

With respect I and others are aware of Tripadvisor and those of with Irish Passports or residency such as Mr Dirtycash do not need to avail ourselves of their advice on travel between the Six Counties and Eire.

INIS are more than happy to resolve this problem and in a typical Irish way. I suspect no doubt without fuss or charge.

They are the only people who can give you a result. You already know you can get a visa for your wife and despite what others say I think it will be free of charge.

However if you do not need a visa then a letter from them stating that is enough to satisfy the airline.

Despite some amazing suggestions from those that are not familiar with the island ,such as flights between Belfast and Dublin, my suggestion Mr Dirtycash is make an appointment with INIS ,you head off down the N1 and a couple of hours later you'll be in Burgh Key with an answer the same day.

Better still make it a two day trip with a hotel and evening in Temple Bar and you can stroll across the Halfpenny Bridge to INIS.

The idea an uncertified letter from a government agency in a distant land will satisfy a check in attendant in Bangkok is incredibly naive. The suggestion to physically drive to INIS is equally ridiculous.

Living in Northern Ireland and having to apply in London does seem daft, I am amazed that there is no Irish consulate in Northern Ireland; probably due to politics and the Republic's claim to sovereignty over the whole island.

That is exactly the reason. Whilst my wife currently needs visas to enter the Irish Republic, citizenship is available to anyone married to an Irish citizen living on the island. So for some issues the border is very much recognised (as in this topic) but in others, like I just mentioned, it is not. The plus side is anyone on FLR in NI does not have to do English tests or citizenship tests.

Edited November 5, 2014 by tullynagardy

[dirtycash]

bloody hell this has got complicated, i nee to apply to london for her now ? as advised by INIS . tullynagarny i would love to know if indeed my wife can aplly for irish passport, she has been in belfast 8 years or more . she came under EEA permit. i am dual irish / uk national. i have both irish / british passports.

wifey now has permanent residence in uk.

[tebee]

You wife would need to become Naturalized http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

[tullynagardy]

bloody hell this has got complicated, i nee to apply to london for her now ? as advised by INIS .

See you PM for naturlaisation.

Applying for a visitors visa, when she already has permission to be in the UK, is insanely easy. Couple of photos, your passports, marriage certificate, permit - pop it in an envelope (with one inside to return) and it will take less than a week.

[7by7]

Dirtycash, yes, your wife does need to apply to the Irish embassy in London.

Although it doesn't say so directly, it does seem from this page that she can do so by post and does not have to attend in person.

Processing Times

The processing times for visa applications vary depending on the visa type and the Office to which the application is lodged.

Fully complete applications lodged at the Public Counter: 7 working days from the date of receipt in this office

Fully complete applications submitted through the post: up to 15 working days from the date of receipt in this office.

Edit; see above post from tullynagardy.

To confirm the position on driving into the Republic, this page from the London embassy says

I live in Northern Ireland: do I need a visa to travel to Ireland?

Yes. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and you will need an Irish visa in order to cross the border into Ireland. Check "Who needs a visa" to see if you are a national of a country that is visa-required.

Edited November 5, 2014 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

Having driven from Belfast to Dublin hundreds of time I find the two hours fly by but accept others may disagree.Mrs Dirtycash wants to travel to Dublin for a flight to Thailand so she obviously does not see it as an ordeal.

I am well aware of the spelling of Burgh Quay 7by7 as I own a property less than half a mile away. However I have to suffer the spell checker on my Ipad which often creates mistakes that go unnoticed.

If I may correct you on one other point the Irish government does not claim sovereignty over the six counties.

As have said many times during this thread INIS are the ones who have the answers to the question.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Having driven from Belfast to Dublin hundreds of time I find the two hours fly by but accept others may disagree.Mrs Dirtycash wants to travel to Dublin for a flight to Thailand so she obviously does not see it as an ordeal.

Who said driving from Belfast to Dublin would be an ordeal? No one.

But applying for a visa to enter a country when one is already illegally in that country may very well be!

I am well aware of the spelling of Burgh Quay 7by7 as I own a property less than half a mile away. However I have to suffer the spell checker on my Ipad which often creates mistakes that go unnoticed.

Odd spell checker that doesn't recognise quay!

If I may correct you on one other point the Irish government does not claim sovereignty over the six counties.

They did up until 1999!

Until then Article 2 of the Irish constitution simply read "The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas."

They then, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, amended articles 2 and 3 of their constitution to water this down to a 'firm will' that the Irish people be united; accepting that this would only happen with the consent of the majority of the population of both the North and the Republic, as expressed in two separate referenda.

Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland

As have said many times during this thread INIS are the ones who have the answers to the question.

As they have done so; they say that she needs a visa and has to apply to London for it.

[Jay Sata]

Why should she apply for something she does not need?

I have spoken this afternoon to a Garda friend in Dundalk.

He suggests that as you are an Irish citizen you apply for an Irish residence card for your wife.

Mrs Dirtycash can apply at a Garda station just over the border

Dundalk is probably the best bet.

Despite suggestions from others that your wife would be illegal if she entered the Republic this in not the case in

practical terms.

Indeed your best bet is to apply for Mrs Dirtycash to become an Irish citizen.

I am sure you qualify if as you say she has lived in the north for 8 years.

Here are the qualifications .

If you are the spouse or civil partner of an Irish citizen who is applying for Irish citizenship, you must meet the following conditions:

You must be married to or in a recognised civil partnership* with the Irish citizen for at least 3 years

You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application

You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence

Your marriage or civil partnership must be recognised as valid under Irish law

You and your spouse or civil partner must be living together as husband and wife or civil partners

You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland

You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

Note the bit where it says you intend to live on the island of Ireland. That underlines the point I am trying to make to some experts who do not understand the Irish thinking in not separating north from south.

As far as the Irish government is concerned without trying to make a big deal in documentation there is only one Ireland and there will never be an issue of your wife being illegal in Eire.

Unlike the UK the fee is modest at just 175 Euro's.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000029

.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Jay Sata

[dirtycash]

What a pasdport or naturalisation . Hard to belive they will issue with sn irish passport but im listening thanks

[tullynagardy]

Why should she apply for something she does not need?

I have spoken this afternoon to a Garda friend in Dundalk.

He suggests that as you are an Irish citizen you apply for an Irish residence card for your wife.

Mrs Dirtycash can apply at a Garda station just over the border

Dundalk is probably the best bet.

Despite suggestions from others that your wife would be illegal if she entered the Republic this in not the case in

practical terms.

Indeed your best bet is to apply for Mrs Dirtycash to become an Irish citizen.

I am sure you qualify if as you say she has lived in the north for 8 years.

Here are the qualifications .

If you are the spouse or civil partner of an Irish citizen who is applying for Irish citizenship, you must meet the following conditions:

You must be married to or in a recognised civil partnership* with the Irish citizen for at least 3 years

You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application

You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence

Your marriage or civil partnership must be recognised as valid under Irish law

You and your spouse or civil partner must be living together as husband and wife or civil partners

You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland

You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

Note the bit where it says you intend to live on the island of Ireland. That underlines the point I am trying to make to some experts who do not understand the Irish thinking in not separating north from south.

As far as the Irish government is concerned without trying to make a big deal in documentation there is only one Ireland and there will never be an issue of your wife being illegal in Eire.

Unlike the UK the fee is modest at just 175 Euro's.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000029

.

There`s a time and a place for your silly Nationalist Rants but it sure isn`t here. You continually write factually incorrect nonsense then justify it by claiming "it`s the Irish way" or " Irish thinking does not seperate north from south."

You now are advising the OP to ignore the advise of Irish authorities and people with direct experience like myself, because you spoke with a "Garda friend in Dundalk."

It`s just ridiculous. By all means go onto a poltiical forum and diminish the reality of the border till the cows come home if thats your view, but on a serious topic where the OP is seeking serious advice can you just steer clear and leave it to people who have regular experienc and accept reality?

[Jay Sata]

What a pasdport or naturalisation . Hard to belive they will issue with sn irish passport but im listening thanks

Unless I am missing something you claim to hold an Irish passport but live in Belfast with your wife.

She has lived there you say for 8 years ?

I assume you have been married to her for that period but at least for three years. As you having lived full time in Northern Ireland or Eire for a year immediately before the date of your application your wife qualifies for Irish citizenship.

You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that. So in other words you need three years living in the North or Eire or both combined.

My only concern is looking at all your other posts you appear to spend time in Thailand.

Is there something about your relationship you are not telling us?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Jay Sata

[japsportscarmad]

Why should she apply for something she does not need?

I have spoken this afternoon to a Garda friend in Dundalk.

He suggests that as you are an Irish citizen you apply for an Irish residence card for your wife.

Mrs Dirtycash can apply at a Garda station just over the border

Dundalk is probably the best bet.

Despite suggestions from others that your wife would be illegal if she entered the Republic this in not the case in

practical terms.

Indeed your best bet is to apply for Mrs Dirtycash to become an Irish citizen.

I am sure you qualify if as you say she has lived in the north for 8 years.

Here are the qualifications .

If you are the spouse or civil partner of an Irish citizen who is applying for Irish citizenship, you must meet the following conditions:

You must be married to or in a recognised civil partnership* with the Irish citizen for at least 3 years

You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application

You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence

Your marriage or civil partnership must be recognised as valid under Irish law

You and your spouse or civil partner must be living together as husband and wife or civil partners

You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland

You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

Note the bit where it says you intend to live on the island of Ireland. That underlines the point I am trying to make to some experts who do not understand the Irish thinking in not separating north from south.

As far as the Irish government is concerned without trying to make a big deal in documentation there is only one Ireland and there will never be an issue of your wife being illegal in Eire.

Unlike the UK the fee is modest at just 175 Euro's.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000029

.

There`s a time and a place for your silly Nationalist Rants but it sure isn`t here. You continually write factually incorrect nonsense then justify it by claiming "it`s the Irish way" or " Irish thinking does not seperate north from south."

You now are advising the OP to ignore the advise of Irish authorities and people with direct experience like myself, because you spoke with a "Garda friend in Dundalk."

It`s just ridiculous. By all means go onto a poltiical forum and diminish the reality of the border till the cows come home if thats your view, but on a serious topic where the OP is seeking serious advice can you just steer clear and leave it to people who have regular experienc and accept reality?

The North is British, and will always be even under the good Friday agreement, and the south dropped all claims to it. In fact outside republican circles they seem reluctant to want it?

It is a separate country to the South as it in Great Britain.

So the North is in the island but is British not Irish, so outside Eire.

So your either British or a citizen of Eire.

The border is very real, although a bit pours to say the least.

[tebee]

If your born in the north you are still considered a citizen of Ireland by the Eire government and can have an Irish Passport - this is one reason which we have so many people with both British and Irish nationality/Passports. So you can indeed be a citizen of both.

The border has always been porous and is now so to the point of none existence. It's a few years since I've been across, but I think it was only the changes in the styles of signs that made us realize we had moved from one country to another, but that's pretty much par for the course in the rest of Europe now - at least in the Schengen area.

[japsportscarmad]

If your born in the north you are still considered a citizen of Ireland by the Eire government and can have an Irish Passport - this is one reason which we have so many people with both British and Irish nationality/Passports. So you can indeed be a citizen of both.

The border has always been porous and is now so to the point of none existence. It's a few years since I've been across, but I think it was only the changes in the styles of signs that made us realize we had moved from one country to another, but that's pretty much par for the course in the rest of Europe now - at least in the Schengen area.

I didn't know that that everyone in the North can still apply for Irish citizenship. It's a bit since I've been close to the border as well :-) or been back, but last time I went from North to South it was only the Sat nav that told me, at least we all drive on the correct side of the road or then we would know the hard way :-)