Canada shootings: Soldier killed and Ottawa on lockdown

[katana]

See post #109.

It's alleged he helped radicalise the two Muslim converts who carried out attacks in Canada, as he did with the Lee Rigby killers.

Edited August 7, 2015 by katana

[JockPieandBeans]

See post #109.

It's alleged he helped radicalise the two Muslim converts who carried out attacks in Canada, as he did with the Lee Rigby killers.

Don't confuse him with facts and leave him to his ignorant bubble.

https://twitter.com/anjemchoudary

The scumbag has 33k followers on twitter.

Working on the 1 : 5 principle, that equates to a sh!tload of followers in the UK.

[7by7]

See post #109.

It's alleged he helped radicalise the two Muslim converts who carried out attacks in Canada, as he did with the Lee Rigby killers.

Perhaps you should read that report before making claims about what it contains!

It alleges no such thing, the closest being

The Twitter profiles of Martin 'Ahmad' Couture-Rouleau, a 25-year-old Muslim convert who was shot dead by police after he killed a Canadian soldier and injured a second near Montreal, and Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, who gunned down a soldier in Ottawa, showed they followed several Islamist preachers, including Choudary

But I will grant you, it does show Choudray may have some very minor relevance to this topic.

33,000 followers on Twitter is not very many worldwide!

I wonder how many of those 33,000 followers are legitimate journalists?

How many are from the lunatic anti Islam fringe? You know who I mean; people like Pamela Gellar, who called a fatal RTC a jihadist attack because one of the four drivers involved is Muslims!

However, I do accept that as Choudray pops up so often, especially in the right wing press and the anti Islam loonies, I understand that from 6000 miles away it is easy for the ignorant to mistakenly think he is a major influence among British Muslims.

(My use of the terms 'lunatic anti Islam fringe' and 'anti Islam loonies' refers to those who blame all of Islam and all Muslims for the actions of the tiny minority of radicals and terrorists who use Islam as an excuse for their crimes.

All of Islam condemn these radicals and terrorists, as, of course, does anyone with a conscience)

[katana]

If the 2 terrorists were taking the time to follow his twitter feed with its anti-Western outpourings, ISIS support and calls for Sharia law, they're being influenced by him. You think they were following him for research purposes such a PhD thesis or something?
And to reiterate, in answer to:
"...No idea what the ridiculous Choudary has to do with this topic..."
He's mentioned in a news article by the International Business Times on the incident (post 109) as being someone the terrorists followed on Twitter in the lead up to the attack, the implication being he had some influence on them.
"Canada: Ottawa and Quebec Terror Attackers Followed Britain's Hate Preacher Anjem Choudary".
Not quite sure why you want to protect him?
In the same vein, why bring Pamela Geller into it. Was she involved in the Canadian shootings in some way?

[ABCer]

Calm down arjuna, there's no attack on you, its not personal. I didnt put in the 'TO ARJUNADAWN' heading either, which adds a confrontational element not in my post. And I think I made it pretty clear that I could have misunderstood you, leaving the door open for you to correct me, and we could all have a discussion like mature adults.

It would be a lot easier to follow your logic and not have to seek clarification if your posts weren't so unneccesarily verbose and over-expressive.

I added "To Arjunadawn" as I had too many posts. I am an imperfect man and as I have conceeded. Tip: If you dont understand and wish to, ask. While verbose at times, it is hardly necessary you assign me as the cause of your hitler association. Hitler is a bit excessive. Let us agree now to refocus.

I actually do not want the CA actions to lead to an increased posture toward war. I think this would be as tragic a mistake as other western friends are doing. If you cannot define the threat you can not manage it. It is my firmest position, previously not stated, that the West needs to intelligently, transparently, have the discussions on the emerging face of Islam and its threat to the world. This process would not, as imagined, lead to warring against Islam. It would clarify and set in motion the need for moderate Islamic countries throughout the world to self regulate, even if for no other reason than survival.

Islam is undoubtedly in a reformation. In the midst of all of this opportunist, illegitimate, islamic countries are manipulating radical jihadis for political gains. This is the single greatest action in the world fueling the spread of jihad. CA should seek an independent analysis of what is happening rather than shoehorning these acts into an already fictious narrative of islam and the world.

I am trying very hard to see why do you believe this?

Try to explain and convince me.

Because I see Islam as a way of life encompassing religion, politics, economics and traditions on the lowest common denominator.

This is why it is always appealing to intellectually deprived masses.

This is why it always was, is and will be aggressive.

This is why it is impervious to reformation, progress, development, liberalisation, tolerance.

Please, arjunadawn, show me where, how and why you think it is in the process of reformation.

[simple1]

The Islamic reformation movement is very slowly building a momentum, how long it takes to be politically supported against fierce oppression by the dictators / extremists is anyone's guess.

In the context of the Christian world’s development of the Reformation a good backgrounder is an article in Foreign Policy.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/02/islam-will-not-have-its-own-reformation/

Taking the above into account do some research on current Islamic reformist thinkers, a reasonable example is Abdolkarim Soroush.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdolkarim_Soroush

Edited August 9, 2015 by simple1

[arjunadawn]

I am trying very hard to see why do you believe this?

Try to explain and convince me.

Because I see Islam as a way of life encompassing religion, politics, economics and traditions on the lowest common denominator.

This is why it is always appealing to intellectually deprived masses.

This is why it always was, is and will be aggressive.

This is why it is impervious to reformation, progress, development, liberalisation, tolerance.

Please, arjunadawn, show me where, how and why you think it is in the process of reformation.

My other posts may clarify the following. Many have said islam is in a reformation. These people also often add the fallacy of hypocrisy that Christianity also went through "growing pains," a reformation. It does not necessarily follow that because they are both called religions they both will self reform over time in a manner similar to Christianity becoming modern, docile. This is the basic premise a number of others have and it is fiction. Obama is the most visible abuser of reason in this regard stating clearly that thus judging islam means Christians are on their "high horse;" clearly one of the most offensive things a leader has ever said about the majority of his own nation. So, the inferences are false and it is not true that islam is in a christian-like reformation.

But islam is in its own, unique reformation. It is not distilling toward docility and ecumenicism and fraternity with the modern world. Islam is distilling into first principles, primary injunctions, a renewed call to the faithful, an appeal to the failings of modernity, and a return to the life of the prophet. The entire third great jihad currently underway is built entirely on this reformation.

I see I have used "reformation" without fully clarifying where I took it in each case. Perhaps I should use capital and lowercase. There will be no christian like reformation, IMO. Yet there is an islamic reformation and as all reformations initially lurch, it is an appeal to first causes the faithful move. Even the christian reformation moved dramatically from the church toward more orthodoxy. In islam orthodoxy explicitly means more pain and death for others, and even muslims.

There is little doubt islam is being used by state actors to play out ambitions; consider Turkey, SA, Iran, Gaza, Sudan, and many others. However, this purifies the bloodline of the faithful. I think it nurtures islamic jihad. Reformation for islam will be different. Islam has no tools for further great exegesis- this point is agreed and closed. Nothing may be added or detracted and all great issues having already been considered are not subject to review. This is a universal tenet. There is only one way Islam can go and that is further to the right.

[Steely Dan]

I am trying very hard to see why do you believe this?

Try to explain and convince me.

Because I see Islam as a way of life encompassing religion, politics, economics and traditions on the lowest common denominator.

This is why it is always appealing to intellectually deprived masses.

This is why it always was, is and will be aggressive.

This is why it is impervious to reformation, progress, development, liberalisation, tolerance.

Please, arjunadawn, show me where, how and why you think it is in the process of reformation.

My other posts may clarify the following. Many have said islam is in a reformation. These people also often add the fallacy of hypocrisy that Christianity also went through "growing pains," a reformation. It does not necessarily follow that because they are both called religions they both will self reform over time in a manner similar to Christianity becoming modern, docile. This is the basic premise a number of others have and it is fiction. Obama is the most visible abuser of reason in this regard stating clearly that thus judging islam means Christians are on their "high horse;" clearly one of the most offensive things a leader has ever said about the majority of his own nation. So, the inferences are false and it is not true that islam is in a christian-like reformation.

But islam is in its own, unique reformation. It is not distilling toward docility and ecumenicism and fraternity with the modern world. Islam is distilling into first principles, primary injunctions, a renewed call to the faithful, an appeal to the failings of modernity, and a return to the life of the prophet. The entire third great jihad currently underway is built entirely on this reformation.

I see I have used "reformation" without fully clarifying where I took it in each case. Perhaps I should use capital and lowercase. There will be no christian like reformation, IMO. Yet there is an islamic reformation and as all reformations initially lurch, it is an appeal to first causes the faithful move. Even the christian reformation moved dramatically from the church toward more orthodoxy. In islam orthodoxy explicitly means more pain and death for others, and even muslims.

There is little doubt islam is being used by state actors to play out ambitions; consider Turkey, SA, Iran, Gaza, Sudan, and many others. However, this purifies the bloodline of the faithful. I think it nurtures islamic jihad. Reformation for islam will be different. Islam has no tools for further great exegesis- this point is agreed and closed. Nothing may be added or detracted and all great issues having already been considered are not subject to review. This is a universal tenet. There is only one way Islam can go and that is further to the right.

In a nutshell ISIS are puritans, Islamic puritans.

[simple1]

I am trying very hard to see why do you believe this?

Try to explain and convince me.

Because I see Islam as a way of life encompassing religion, politics, economics and traditions on the lowest common denominator.

This is why it is always appealing to intellectually deprived masses.

This is why it always was, is and will be aggressive.

This is why it is impervious to reformation, progress, development, liberalisation, tolerance.

Please, arjunadawn, show me where, how and why you think it is in the process of reformation.

My other posts may clarify the following. Many have said islam is in a reformation. These people also often add the fallacy of hypocrisy that Christianity also went through "growing pains," a reformation. It does not necessarily follow that because they are both called religions they both will self reform over time in a manner similar to Christianity becoming modern, docile. This is the basic premise a number of others have and it is fiction. Obama is the most visible abuser of reason in this regard stating clearly that thus judging islam means Christians are on their "high horse;" clearly one of the most offensive things a leader has ever said about the majority of his own nation. So, the inferences are false and it is not true that islam is in a christian-like reformation.

But islam is in its own, unique reformation. It is not distilling toward docility and ecumenicism and fraternity with the modern world. Islam is distilling into first principles, primary injunctions, a renewed call to the faithful, an appeal to the failings of modernity, and a return to the life of the prophet. The entire third great jihad currently underway is built entirely on this reformation.

I see I have used "reformation" without fully clarifying where I took it in each case. Perhaps I should use capital and lowercase. There will be no christian like reformation, IMO. Yet there is an islamic reformation and as all reformations initially lurch, it is an appeal to first causes the faithful move. Even the christian reformation moved dramatically from the church toward more orthodoxy. In islam orthodoxy explicitly means more pain and death for others, and even muslims.

There is little doubt islam is being used by state actors to play out ambitions; consider Turkey, SA, Iran, Gaza, Sudan, and many others. However, this purifies the bloodline of the faithful. I think it nurtures islamic jihad. Reformation for islam will be different. Islam has no tools for further great exegesis- this point is agreed and closed. Nothing may be added or detracted and all great issues having already been considered are not subject to review. This is a universal tenet. There is only one way Islam can go and that is further to the right.

In a nutshell ISIS are puritans, Islamic puritans.

True, although political decisions will come into play to bring about their defeat.

I disagree with the position taken by Arjunadawn. I do not believe there is an immutable trajectory for global Islam to the extreme right & acheive domination. In collaboration with their fellow Muslims, whether it takes 50 years or 100 years, Islamist's will eventually be defeated.

[arjunadawn]

I am trying very hard to see why do you believe this?

Try to explain and convince me.

Because I see Islam as a way of life encompassing religion, politics, economics and traditions on the lowest common denominator.

This is why it is always appealing to intellectually deprived masses.

This is why it always was, is and will be aggressive.

This is why it is impervious to reformation, progress, development, liberalisation, tolerance.

Please, arjunadawn, show me where, how and why you think it is in the process of reformation.

My other posts may clarify the following. Many have said islam is in a reformation. These people also often add the fallacy of hypocrisy that Christianity also went through "growing pains," a reformation. It does not necessarily follow that because they are both called religions they both will self reform over time in a manner similar to Christianity becoming modern, docile. This is the basic premise a number of others have and it is fiction. Obama is the most visible abuser of reason in this regard stating clearly that thus judging islam means Christians are on their "high horse;" clearly one of the most offensive things a leader has ever said about the majority of his own nation. So, the inferences are false and it is not true that islam is in a christian-like reformation.

But islam is in its own, unique reformation. It is not distilling toward docility and ecumenicism and fraternity with the modern world. Islam is distilling into first principles, primary injunctions, a renewed call to the faithful, an appeal to the failings of modernity, and a return to the life of the prophet. The entire third great jihad currently underway is built entirely on this reformation.

I see I have used "reformation" without fully clarifying where I took it in each case. Perhaps I should use capital and lowercase. There will be no christian like reformation, IMO. Yet there is an islamic reformation and as all reformations initially lurch, it is an appeal to first causes the faithful move. Even the christian reformation moved dramatically from the church toward more orthodoxy. In islam orthodoxy explicitly means more pain and death for others, and even muslims.

There is little doubt islam is being used by state actors to play out ambitions; consider Turkey, SA, Iran, Gaza, Sudan, and many others. However, this purifies the bloodline of the faithful. I think it nurtures islamic jihad. Reformation for islam will be different. Islam has no tools for further great exegesis- this point is agreed and closed. Nothing may be added or detracted and all great issues having already been considered are not subject to review. This is a universal tenet. There is only one way Islam can go and that is further to the right.

In a nutshell ISIS are puritans, Islamic puritans.

True, although political decisions will come into play to bring about their defeat.

I disagree with the position taken by Arjunadawn. I do not believe there is an immutable trajectory for global Islam to the extreme right & acheive domination. In collaboration with their fellow Muslims, whether it takes 50 years or 100 years, Islamist's will eventually be defeated.

Islamists may eventually be defeated but in that scenario it is more likely that we will call a stalemate defeat. I do not hold islam has the capacity to coexist with outs in a plural modern world. Islam may even fracture, but what constitutes core, mainstream Islam is not the silent action of the AWOL muslim majority.

[ABCer]

Islamists may eventually be defeated but in that scenario it is more likely that we will call a stalemate defeat. I do not hold islam has the capacity to coexist with outs in a plural modern world. Islam may even fracture, but what constitutes core, mainstream Islam is not the silent action of the AWOL muslim majority.

In a nutshell ISIS are puritans, Islamic puritans.

True, although political decisions will come into play to bring about their defeat.

I disagree with the position taken by Arjunadawn.

True, although political decisions will come into play to bring about their defeat.

I disagree with the position taken by Arjunadawn. I do not believe there is an immutable trajectory for global Islam to the extreme right & acheive domination. In collaboration with their fellow Muslims, whether it takes 50 years or 100 years, Islamist's will eventually be defeated.

----------------

arjunadawn, Steely Dan, simple1,

I can see where you are coming from and where would like to go.

However being a realist with rather pessimistic views I cannot share your optimism.

On one hand I refuse to share or partake in fanatical mutual destruction and defeat which belongs to Middle Ages Crusades.

In my view these miserable sons of bitches - Islamists, Jihadists, Terrorists must be stopped, but not by extermination. After all they are people however misguided.

Besides, no amount of bombings, killings and imprisonments will end this war.

First we must stop pretending that military solution is possible. No bombs can kill any idea.

Than we must stop deluding ourselves that there is Good Islam and Good Muslims. There is only one Islam and Muslims are living according to it. They are what they are, neither Good nor Bad.

Finally we must Isolate Islam from the rest of the World. This is a daunting task. But once performed - it will end the War and all hostilities between Muslims and non-Muslims.

To achieve this Isolation West will have to:

- Ban Islam, Mosques and Muslim education.

- Deport all Muslims to the countries of their origins - indiscriminately! Yes, legal and illegal, citizens and residents, born wherever.

- Stop any interference into Muslim internal affairs or faction fights.

Yes, I realise that this position is monstrously incorrect in today's political climate.

Yes, I realise the enormity of the task to remove and relocate 45,000,000 people. Don't ask me how. I didn't let them in.

The alternative is War. A very bloody War. An "asymmetrical" type of War we are already fighting and losing. And losing big time. A War we can not win.

Therefore - there is no alternative. This is my personal opinion. Hope to be wrong, but...

Edited August 9, 2015 by ABCer

[7by7]

katana,

This is the only response I am going to make to your last post, as every point you have raised in it was already dealt with by me in my previous post and therefore repeating them will serve no useful purpose.

That you seem incapable of understanding those points is your problem, not mine; maybe you have a friend who can explain them to you?

[Scott]

It is clear this topic has been brought up with the sole purpose of trolling. There are plenty of active threads.

//CLOSED//