UN chief says Palestine will join int'l court on April 1

[ggt]

The Jews and Arabs have been slaughtering each other for thousands of years...it is not going to change....EVER!

[dexterm]

The only people who fear a court are the guilty.

Then the Palestinians are not smart enough to realize that shooting rockets at civilians, sponsoring suicide bombers and using your own people as human shields are all war crimes.

The Palestinians are being systematically destroyed so why not take Israel who is equally culpable with them? Israel wishes to deny to the Palestinians the very same method they used to become Israel and if anyone complains they are accuses of anti-Semitism.

Wrong. The Palestinians agreed to the Oslo accords which means that they can not bypass negotiations with Israel and go to the UN directly. If they do so, they negate agreements that benefit them. By the way, the Palestinians were offered the same deal that Israel was by the UN. They turned it down, declared war on Israel and LOST. That is why they are in the pickle that they are today.

What benefits will the Palestinians lose other than temporary theft of taxes and other collective punishments?

22 years of negotiations has produced zilch progress for the Palestinians. Israel will continue stalling for another 22 years unless they get a kick up the butt from the ICC, UN, and EU. The main impetus for change is of course US opinion and actions. But they will do nothing. They are in the pockets of AIPAC. Best for the Palestinians to cut US lose and appeal to pressure from the rest of the world.

Why are you always living in the past? Your 1948 myth has been debunked many times. The Palestinians justifiably rejected the Partition plan giving 61% of Palestine to illegal Jewish immigrants who were a mere 31% of the population.

Haganah and the Jewish terrorist gangs ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians long before the Arab armies supposedly came to their rescue. They had to when you do the math. How could the Jewish state still be a democracy when the majority would be Palestinians?

And the so called 5 invading Arab armies was a sham due to Israeli and US bribery and conniving. Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

Just because the bully wins, doesn’t make it right.

[notmyself]

Wrong. The Palestinians agreed to the Oslo accords which means that they can not bypass negotiations with Israel and go to the UN directly.

The Oslo accord ended in May 1999 after the agreed five years though you can still see some of the effects of it. Israel basically used it to kick the can 5 years down the road and all they have been doing ever since is the same can kicking. In all honesty, Israel would get more respect if they just admitted that they have no interest in negotiations and have annexed the land, rather than constantly lying.

[Ulysses G.]

Wrong. The Palestinians agreed to the Oslo accords which means that they can not bypass negotiations with Israel and go to the UN directly.

The Oslo accord ended in May 1999 after the agreed five years though you can still see some of the effects of it. Israel basically used it to kick the can 5 years down the road and all they have been doing ever since is the same can kicking. In all honesty, Israel would get more respect if they just admitted that they have no interest in negotiations and have annexed the land, rather than constantly lying.

Wrong again. When you have no idea what you are talking about, just making something up, that can easily be checked, is not a good idea.

There was no "agreed five years", except as an interim period, before negotiations would determine a final peace agreement to resolve the major issues: final borders, security arrangements, Jerusalem, whether the Palestinians would have an independent state, Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and Palestinian refugees' claims to land and property left behind when they fled Israel. None of those things have been determined and the Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day.

[Ulysses G.]

Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

The blatant lies that fill your posts have been pointed out over and over again. It gets boring pointing them out for the 100th time, but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself. FIVE Arabs armies attacked Israel and LOST. Those are the FACTS

America gave Israel very little help - another lie - until they beat the Arabs yet again - very decisively - in 1967 and Israel was not better equipped in 1948, they were just a lot smarter and knew that they would be slaughtered wholesale, if they did not win.

The FIVE Arab armies lost because they did not take the Jews seriously and did not send enough troops and because they were so unprofessional and disorganized. That is their OWN fault. They KEPT losing wars against Israel for much the same reasons and have KEPT losing to this day, except for the ones who were smart enough to make peace.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[boomerangutang]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

So, you don't even have to be a country to join?

They might want to be careful. I can't wait for the Kurds to decide they want to join. There was Kurdistan at one point in time.

I am sure there are others that will be happy to join as well.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

[dexterm]

Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

The blatant lies that fill your posts have been pointed out over and over again. It gets boring pointing them out for the 100th time, but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself. FIVE Arabs armies attacked Israel and LOST. Those are the FACTS

America gave Israel very little help - another lie - until they beat the Arabs yet again - very decisively - in 1967 and Israel was not better equipped in 1948, they were just a lot smarter and knew that they would be slaughtered wholesale, if they did not win.

The FIVE Arab armies lost because they did not take the Jews seriously and did not send enough troops and because they were so unprofessional and disorganized. That is their OWN fault. They KEPT losing wars against Israel for much the same reasons and have KEPT losing to this day, except for the ones who were smart enough to make peace.

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

It was Israel who began the war by violating the 1947 partition plan and ethnically cleansing Palestinians. Jews had occupied most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948, that was even before the end of the British Mandate.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

Make that 2 Arab armies for starters. The 48 war was not quite the David and Goliath scenario you make it out to be. It was more like Arab lions led by donkeys.

Just because the bully picks a fight and wins against a weaker opponent doesn’t make it justified.

Arab forces were initially limited to 30,000 poorly equipped men (later reinforced to 68,000), while Israel had 90,000 well armed soldiers with very short lines of supply. All against the better advice of the Arab armies’ chiefs of staff to their corrupt incompetent governments not to invade Palestine because of troubles in their home countries. (Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities p. 123-124). No country or generation has a premium on stupid political leaders sacrificing their young soldiers..take George Dubya, Blair and Netanyahu for starters.

In May 1948 the lineup was: Egyptians 5,500 men, Syrians 6,000, Iraqis 4,500, Palestinian irregulars 3,000, Lebanese 2,000, Jordanians 9,000 (the best trained but never fought)

Only the Egyptian and Syrian armies and the Palestinians (although their leaders had been exiled since 1936) actually fought the Israelis.

Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army never crossed the border

Israel had bribed, with money and land, King Abdullah of Jordan (who controlled the Jordanians and Iraqis) not to move beyond the West Bank.

Another huge factor was the softening up by Jewish terrorist gangs prior the war. When the war started on May 15, 1948, close to 400,000 Palestinian refugees were already ethnically cleansed and clogging the roads, burdening local economies, and demoralizing the Arab populations and armies, as was intended. Talk about human shields. (Israel: A History, p. 218 & Benny Morris, p. 211)

In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" pp. 14-18 Israeli historian Benny Morris lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population. In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/

Although there was an arms embargo in the Middle East, it harmed the Arabs more than the Israelis. While the Arab armies were running down their ammunitions, the Israeli army was stockpiling weapons and ammunitions from a large arms shipment from Czechoslovakia that arrived in early May, 1948.

The Arab armies who were actually allowed to fight were badly organised. There was no common military headquarters to coordinate armies. It wasn't until April 30, 1948 that the Arab armies' chiefs of staff met for the first time to work out a plan and that was later wrecked by King Abdullah, when he made last minute changes just before the entry of any Arab army into British Mandated Palestine. (Simha Flapan, p. 133)

As Ben Gurion admitted: "Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever?" (Simha Flapan, p. 238)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0901/S00132.htm

Prophetic words maybe. Time is on the side of the Palestinians.

[Ulysses G.]

Why do you persist with the dishonest posts? Your credibility was destroyed on this forum months ago. Posting more and more lies is not going to get it back and - as usual - your post is a bunch of distortions and deflections that do not even address my main points. NOTHING you have posted here negates anything that I have said. FIVE Arab armies attacked tiny Israel and LOST. The FACT that they prepared badly, fought stupidly and LOST is THEIR problem. It is not the first or last time that they picked fights that they could not win.


"Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten."

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

So, you don't even have to be a country to join?

They might want to be careful. I can't wait for the Kurds to decide they want to join. There was Kurdistan at one point in time.

I am sure there are others that will be happy to join as well.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

The ICC can prosecute individuals accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed since 1 July 2002, when the Rome statute came into force.

The UN can instigate a prosecution, but that runs the risk of one of the super powers vetoing it.

Alternatively, the court can pursue an individual only if crimes were committed on the territory of a state party – one that has signed and ratified the Rome statute – or by a citizen of such a state. Israel has signed but not ratified the treaty.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/palestinian-president-international-criminal-court

Perhaps Israel and the US should ratify the ICC treaty themselves if they wish to prosecute any Palestinians.

Neither Kurdistan nor Tibet are UN member states, so can't prosecute.

Edited January 9, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Why do you persist with the dishonest posts? .

...because they aren't dishonest

Your credibility was destroyed on this forum months ago.

Says who...you and your Israeli apologist buddies? Well you would say that wouldn't you? Count the likes.

It's much easier for you to shoot the messenger than answer with rational, sourced arguments

[ggold]

Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

The blatant lies that fill your posts have been pointed out over and over again. It gets boring pointing them out for the 100th time, but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself. FIVE Arabs armies attacked Israel and LOST. Those are the FACTS

America gave Israel very little help - another lie - until they beat the Arabs yet again - very decisively - in 1967 and Israel was not better equipped in 1948, they were just a lot smarter and knew that they would be slaughtered wholesale, if they did not win.

The FIVE Arab armies lost because they did not take the Jews seriously and did not send enough troops and because they were so unprofessional and disorganized. That is their OWN fault. They KEPT losing wars against Israel for much the same reasons and have KEPT losing to this day, except for the ones who were smart enough to make peace.

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

It was Israel who began the war by violating the 1947 partition plan and ethnically cleansing Palestinians. Jews had occupied most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948, that was even before the end of the British Mandate.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

Make that 2 Arab armies for starters. The 48 war was not quite the David and Goliath scenario you make it out to be. It was more like Arab lions led by donkeys.

Just because the bully picks a fight and wins against a weaker opponent doesn’t make it justified.

Arab forces were initially limited to 30,000 poorly equipped men (later reinforced to 68,000), while Israel had 90,000 well armed soldiers with very short lines of supply. All against the better advice of the Arab armies’ chiefs of staff to their corrupt incompetent governments not to invade Palestine because of troubles in their home countries. (Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities p. 123-124). No country or generation has a premium on stupid political leaders sacrificing their young soldiers..take George Dubya, Blair and Netanyahu for starters.

In May 1948 the lineup was: Egyptians 5,500 men, Syrians 6,000, Iraqis 4,500, Palestinian irregulars 3,000, Lebanese 2,000, Jordanians 9,000 (the best trained but never fought)

Only the Egyptian and Syrian armies and the Palestinians (although their leaders had been exiled since 1936) actually fought the Israelis.

Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army never crossed the border

Israel had bribed, with money and land, King Abdullah of Jordan (who controlled the Jordanians and Iraqis) not to move beyond the West Bank.

Another huge factor was the softening up by Jewish terrorist gangs prior the war. When the war started on May 15, 1948, close to 400,000 Palestinian refugees were already ethnically cleansed and clogging the roads, burdening local economies, and demoralizing the Arab populations and armies, as was intended. Talk about human shields. (Israel: A History, p. 218 & Benny Morris, p. 211)

In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" pp. 14-18 Israeli historian Benny Morris lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population. In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/

Although there was an arms embargo in the Middle East, it harmed the Arabs more than the Israelis. While the Arab armies were running down their ammunitions, the Israeli army was stockpiling weapons and ammunitions from a large arms shipment from Czechoslovakia that arrived in early May, 1948.

The Arab armies who were actually allowed to fight were badly organised. There was no common military headquarters to coordinate armies. It wasn't until April 30, 1948 that the Arab armies' chiefs of staff met for the first time to work out a plan and that was later wrecked by King Abdullah, when he made last minute changes just before the entry of any Arab army into British Mandated Palestine. (Simha Flapan, p. 133)

As Ben Gurion admitted: "Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever?" (Simha Flapan, p. 238)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0901/S00132.htm

Prophetic words maybe. Time is on the side of the Palestinians.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html

As usual, the Palestinians blamed everyone but themselves. In his recently published notes from 1949, Anwar Nusseiba — the secretary, and later chairman of the Palestinian national committee of Jerusalem — complained that the Arab Legion was Arab by name only and because of its British command could not implement an Arab policy: Iraq was run by the British embassy and had an account to settle with the Palestinian leader, Hajj Amin al-Hussayni, for his role in Rashid Ali al-Kailany's putsch in 1941 and Syria and Lebanon were grateful to Britain for ejecting the French and facilitating their independence. Nusseiba accused all the Arab states of consenting to the first truce shortly after the invasion and asserted that from the beginning they acquiesced to partition and merely simulated the invasion to cover their own impotence. Constantine Zurayq had already made this charge during the war and Mussa Alami repeated it, blaming Britain and the United States for the calamity that befell the Palestinians.

A second Arab obsession has been the question of justice and unfairness. Arab scholars have scarcely endeavored to find out what really took place in that war. Instead, they have elaborated extensively on the rightness of their own case and illegitimacy of the Israeli arguments. In these discussions, exact chronology, reliable sources and accurate arguments have been marginal.

There was no mass ethnic cleansing, the Arab League ordered all arabs to leave the area because the great Arab army was coming back to push the Jews into the sea. Even with the low numbers you claim that made up the Arab armies, They still outnumbered the fighters the Jews could muster.

As usual you distort the facts to suite your narrative. Talk about fabricated chestnuts from 1948, you have included them all in your Post.

Edited January 9, 2015 by ggold

[ggold]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

So, you don't even have to be a country to join?

They might want to be careful. I can't wait for the Kurds to decide they want to join. There was Kurdistan at one point in time.

I am sure there are others that will be happy to join as well.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

The ICC can prosecute individuals accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed since 1 July 2002, when the Rome statute came into force.

The UN can instigate a prosecution, but that runs the risk of one of the super powers vetoing it.

Alternatively, the court can pursue an individual only if crimes were committed on the territory of a state party – one that has signed and ratified the Rome statute – or by a citizen of such a state. Israel has signed but not ratified the treaty.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/palestinian-president-international-criminal-court

Perhaps Israel and the US should ratify the ICC treaty themselves if they wish to prosecute any Palestinians.

Neither Kurdistan nor Tibet are UN member states, so can't prosecute.

ABBAS' request to join the ICC in effect from 13 June 2014. So the ICC cannot investigate anything prior to that date.

[Ulysses G.]

It's much easier for you to shoot the messenger than answer with rational, sourced arguments

That is because the messenger - YOU - has been caught posting blatant lies over and over again and "rational, sourced" evidence has been produced to prove it. However, you keep posting the exact same discredited nonsense and pretending that no one realizes it.

[BoneRanger]

It's much easier for you to shoot the messenger than answer with rational, sourced arguments

That is because the messenger - YOU - has been caught posting blatant lies over and over again and "rational, sourced" evidence has been produced to prove it. However, you keep posting the exact same discredited nonsense and pretending that no one realizes it.

You spend allot of time calling others liars. You just posted that about me in another thread a few minutes ago....

My suggestion? Grow a brain.

[Ulysses G.]

I also proved that you lied in your post and I have proved that this poster has lied in posts numerous times. Don't keep posting lies, if you don't want them exposed for exactly what they are.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[notmyself]

There was no "agreed five years", except as an interim period, before negotiations would determine a final peace agreement to resolve the major issues: final borders, security arrangements, Jerusalem, whether the Palestinians would have an independent state, Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and Palestinian refugees' claims to land and property left behind when they fled Israel. None of those things have been determined and the Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day.

This is just what Israel claims but it wouldn't stand up in any court which is why the Palestinians are going in the direction they are and why Israel is so fervently opposed to ANY independent judication on the matter.

[Ulysses G.]

This is not one of your religious threads where you can post silly theories ad nauseam, because there are no facts involved. You simply not know what you are talking about. The Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day. The EU's foreign policy chief brought up a possible violation of the Oslo Accords just a few days ago and he is not Israeli.

[dexterm]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

So, you don't even have to be a country to join?

They might want to be careful. I can't wait for the Kurds to decide they want to join. There was Kurdistan at one point in time.

I am sure there are others that will be happy to join as well.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

The ICC can prosecute individuals accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed since 1 July 2002, when the Rome statute came into force.

The UN can instigate a prosecution, but that runs the risk of one of the super powers vetoing it.

Alternatively, the court can pursue an individual only if crimes were committed on the territory of a state party – one that has signed and ratified the Rome statute – or by a citizen of such a state. Israel has signed but not ratified the treaty.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/palestinian-president-international-criminal-court

Perhaps Israel and the US should ratify the ICC treaty themselves if they wish to prosecute any Palestinians.

Neither Kurdistan nor Tibet are UN member states, so can't prosecute.

ABBAS' request to join the ICC in effect from 13 June 2014. So the ICC cannot investigate anything prior to that date.

in your dreams. A member state can prosecute any crime since 2002.

Why are the Israelis panicking? Got something to hide?

[dexterm]

Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

The blatant lies that fill your posts have been pointed out over and over again. It gets boring pointing them out for the 100th time, but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself. FIVE Arabs armies attacked Israel and LOST. Those are the FACTS

America gave Israel very little help - another lie - until they beat the Arabs yet again - very decisively - in 1967 and Israel was not better equipped in 1948, they were just a lot smarter and knew that they would be slaughtered wholesale, if they did not win.

The FIVE Arab armies lost because they did not take the Jews seriously and did not send enough troops and because they were so unprofessional and disorganized. That is their OWN fault. They KEPT losing wars against Israel for much the same reasons and have KEPT losing to this day, except for the ones who were smart enough to make peace.

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

It was Israel who began the war by violating the 1947 partition plan and ethnically cleansing Palestinians. Jews had occupied most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948, that was even before the end of the British Mandate.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

Make that 2 Arab armies for starters. The 48 war was not quite the David and Goliath scenario you make it out to be. It was more like Arab lions led by donkeys.

Just because the bully picks a fight and wins against a weaker opponent doesn’t make it justified.

Arab forces were initially limited to 30,000 poorly equipped men (later reinforced to 68,000), while Israel had 90,000 well armed soldiers with very short lines of supply. All against the better advice of the Arab armies’ chiefs of staff to their corrupt incompetent governments not to invade Palestine because of troubles in their home countries. (Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities p. 123-124). No country or generation has a premium on stupid political leaders sacrificing their young soldiers..take George Dubya, Blair and Netanyahu for starters.

In May 1948 the lineup was: Egyptians 5,500 men, Syrians 6,000, Iraqis 4,500, Palestinian irregulars 3,000, Lebanese 2,000, Jordanians 9,000 (the best trained but never fought)

Only the Egyptian and Syrian armies and the Palestinians (although their leaders had been exiled since 1936) actually fought the Israelis.

Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army never crossed the border

Israel had bribed, with money and land, King Abdullah of Jordan (who controlled the Jordanians and Iraqis) not to move beyond the West Bank.

Another huge factor was the softening up by Jewish terrorist gangs prior the war. When the war started on May 15, 1948, close to 400,000 Palestinian refugees were already ethnically cleansed and clogging the roads, burdening local economies, and demoralizing the Arab populations and armies, as was intended. Talk about human shields. (Israel: A History, p. 218 & Benny Morris, p. 211)

In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" pp. 14-18 Israeli historian Benny Morris lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population. In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/

Although there was an arms embargo in the Middle East, it harmed the Arabs more than the Israelis. While the Arab armies were running down their ammunitions, the Israeli army was stockpiling weapons and ammunitions from a large arms shipment from Czechoslovakia that arrived in early May, 1948.

The Arab armies who were actually allowed to fight were badly organised. There was no common military headquarters to coordinate armies. It wasn't until April 30, 1948 that the Arab armies' chiefs of staff met for the first time to work out a plan and that was later wrecked by King Abdullah, when he made last minute changes just before the entry of any Arab army into British Mandated Palestine. (Simha Flapan, p. 133)

As Ben Gurion admitted: "Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever?" (Simha Flapan, p. 238)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0901/S00132.htm

Prophetic words maybe. Time is on the side of the Palestinians.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html

As usual, the Palestinians blamed everyone but themselves. In his recently published notes from 1949, Anwar Nusseiba — the secretary, and later chairman of the Palestinian national committee of Jerusalem — complained that the Arab Legion was Arab by name only and because of its British command could not implement an Arab policy: Iraq was run by the British embassy and had an account to settle with the Palestinian leader, Hajj Amin al-Hussayni, for his role in Rashid Ali al-Kailany's putsch in 1941 and Syria and Lebanon were grateful to Britain for ejecting the French and facilitating their independence. Nusseiba accused all the Arab states of consenting to the first truce shortly after the invasion and asserted that from the beginning they acquiesced to partition and merely simulated the invasion to cover their own impotence. Constantine Zurayq had already made this charge during the war and Mussa Alami repeated it, blaming Britain and the United States for the calamity that befell the Palestinians.

A second Arab obsession has been the question of justice and unfairness. Arab scholars have scarcely endeavored to find out what really took place in that war. Instead, they have elaborated extensively on the rightness of their own case and illegitimacy of the Israeli arguments. In these discussions, exact chronology, reliable sources and accurate arguments have been marginal.

There was no mass ethnic cleansing, the Arab League ordered all arabs to leave the area because the great Arab army was coming back to push the Jews into the sea. Even with the low numbers you claim that made up the Arab armies, They still outnumbered the fighters the Jews could muster.

As usual you distort the facts to suite your narrative. Talk about fabricated chestnuts from 1948, you have included them all in your Post.

I despise Holocaust deniers, and I equally despise the Palestinian Nakba deniers when 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948.

Maybe you should read your own source more carefully. It seems to disagree with you.

"The narratives agree on the existence of a pre-meditated Jewish scheme to expel the Palestinians (“Plan Dalet”). They also concur on the significance of the Deir Yassin massacre, on the Jews’ military superiority."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html

Perhaps you will believe your own Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service’s document entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" dated 30 June 1948, but which wasn’t widely known until 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":...Here are the first 3:

1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.

2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).

3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Opening_of_archives

And then read Israel’s oldest newspaper Haartez May 2013, which shows the attempted cover up which you are still trying to deceive tvf readers with...par for the course from the Israeli apologist camp.

The file in the state archives contains clear evidence that the researchers at the time did not paint the full picture of Israel's role in creating the Palestinian refugee problem.

“ In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/catastrophic-thinking-did-ben-gurion-try-to-rewrite-history.premium-1.524308

Edited January 9, 2015 by dexterm

[notmyself]

This is not one of your religious threads where you can post silly theories ad nauseam, because there are no facts involved. You simply not know what you are talking about. The Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day. The EU's foreign policy chief brought up a possible violation of the Oslo Accords just a few days ago and he is not Israeli.

Baiting for something you can claim is anti-Semitic UG?

So let us say I am wrong and you are right. If Israel are so sure that they are in the right then they would grasp with both hands the opportunity of total vindication would they not. If, as you incorrectly point out, the Palestinians HAVE broken the Oslo accord then Israel cannot be accused of breaking it first.

People often solves issues between themselves such as when you damage your neighbour's fence while backing your car in. You offer to pay for a replacement fence and chuck a couple of bucks as a sorry. Not good enough, the missus has to have the day off work to oversee it was done correctly so you chuck in a days wages and a few more bob for a dinner or something. Not good enough though. Neighbour wants your house in excess of everything else. Rather than get the police involved, take it to court and what they decide will be deemed to be fair you agree to a 5 year moratorium on legal action after which a decision has to be made. No decision is made but his cousin moves into your house, murders your wife and parks on your driveway and is still there after 5 years. You go to complain after the 5 years are over only to be told that the agreement was that an agreement had to be made first and as long as the neighbour doesn't agree it will never end.

It's a blatant con job which is why Israel is so against it going to 'independent' anything. Israel claim that they have an agreement and do not want to break the agreement. BS, absolute unadulterated BS.

[ggold]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

The ICC can prosecute individuals accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed since 1 July 2002, when the Rome statute came into force.

The UN can instigate a prosecution, but that runs the risk of one of the super powers vetoing it.

Alternatively, the court can pursue an individual only if crimes were committed on the territory of a state party – one that has signed and ratified the Rome statute – or by a citizen of such a state. Israel has signed but not ratified the treaty.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/palestinian-president-international-criminal-court

Perhaps Israel and the US should ratify the ICC treaty themselves if they wish to prosecute any Palestinians.

Neither Kurdistan nor Tibet are UN member states, so can't prosecute.

ABBAS' request to join the ICC in effect from 13 June 2014. So the ICC cannot investigate anything prior to that date.

in your dreams. A member state can prosecute any crime since 2002.

Why are the Israelis panicking? Got something to hide?

You don't even keep up with the news. So don't make claims you know nothing about.

Riyadh Mansour told a group of reporters that Palestine’s formal acceptance of the court’s jurisdiction starting June 13, 2014 gives prosecutor Fatou Bensouda a green light to take up the question of alleged war crimes on Palestinian territory without waiting for Palestine to formally become a member of the court on April 1.

Read more: Palestinians say ICC can examine war crimes allegations now | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-say-icc-can-examine-war-crimes-allegations-now/#ixzz3OIey8tJX

[ggold]

The blatant lies that fill your posts have been pointed out over and over again. It gets boring pointing them out for the 100th time, but this is so ridiculous that I can't help myself. FIVE Arabs armies attacked Israel and LOST. Those are the FACTS

America gave Israel very little help - another lie - until they beat the Arabs yet again - very decisively - in 1967 and Israel was not better equipped in 1948, they were just a lot smarter and knew that they would be slaughtered wholesale, if they did not win.

The FIVE Arab armies lost because they did not take the Jews seriously and did not send enough troops and because they were so unprofessional and disorganized. That is their OWN fault. They KEPT losing wars against Israel for much the same reasons and have KEPT losing to this day, except for the ones who were smart enough to make peace.

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

It was Israel who began the war by violating the 1947 partition plan and ethnically cleansing Palestinians. Jews had occupied most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948, that was even before the end of the British Mandate.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

Make that 2 Arab armies for starters. The 48 war was not quite the David and Goliath scenario you make it out to be. It was more like Arab lions led by donkeys.

Just because the bully picks a fight and wins against a weaker opponent doesn’t make it justified.

Arab forces were initially limited to 30,000 poorly equipped men (later reinforced to 68,000), while Israel had 90,000 well armed soldiers with very short lines of supply. All against the better advice of the Arab armies’ chiefs of staff to their corrupt incompetent governments not to invade Palestine because of troubles in their home countries. (Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities p. 123-124). No country or generation has a premium on stupid political leaders sacrificing their young soldiers..take George Dubya, Blair and Netanyahu for starters.

In May 1948 the lineup was: Egyptians 5,500 men, Syrians 6,000, Iraqis 4,500, Palestinian irregulars 3,000, Lebanese 2,000, Jordanians 9,000 (the best trained but never fought)

Only the Egyptian and Syrian armies and the Palestinians (although their leaders had been exiled since 1936) actually fought the Israelis.

Under American and French pressure, the Lebanese Army never crossed the border

Israel had bribed, with money and land, King Abdullah of Jordan (who controlled the Jordanians and Iraqis) not to move beyond the West Bank.

Another huge factor was the softening up by Jewish terrorist gangs prior the war. When the war started on May 15, 1948, close to 400,000 Palestinian refugees were already ethnically cleansed and clogging the roads, burdening local economies, and demoralizing the Arab populations and armies, as was intended. Talk about human shields. (Israel: A History, p. 218 & Benny Morris, p. 211)

In "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" pp. 14-18 Israeli historian Benny Morris lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population. In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/

Although there was an arms embargo in the Middle East, it harmed the Arabs more than the Israelis. While the Arab armies were running down their ammunitions, the Israeli army was stockpiling weapons and ammunitions from a large arms shipment from Czechoslovakia that arrived in early May, 1948.

The Arab armies who were actually allowed to fight were badly organised. There was no common military headquarters to coordinate armies. It wasn't until April 30, 1948 that the Arab armies' chiefs of staff met for the first time to work out a plan and that was later wrecked by King Abdullah, when he made last minute changes just before the entry of any Arab army into British Mandated Palestine. (Simha Flapan, p. 133)

As Ben Gurion admitted: "Let us recognize the truth: we won not because we performed wonders, but because the Arab army is rotten. Must this rottenness persist forever?" (Simha Flapan, p. 238)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0901/S00132.htm

Prophetic words maybe. Time is on the side of the Palestinians.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html

As usual, the Palestinians blamed everyone but themselves. In his recently published notes from 1949, Anwar Nusseiba — the secretary, and later chairman of the Palestinian national committee of Jerusalem — complained that the Arab Legion was Arab by name only and because of its British command could not implement an Arab policy: Iraq was run by the British embassy and had an account to settle with the Palestinian leader, Hajj Amin al-Hussayni, for his role in Rashid Ali al-Kailany's putsch in 1941 and Syria and Lebanon were grateful to Britain for ejecting the French and facilitating their independence. Nusseiba accused all the Arab states of consenting to the first truce shortly after the invasion and asserted that from the beginning they acquiesced to partition and merely simulated the invasion to cover their own impotence. Constantine Zurayq had already made this charge during the war and Mussa Alami repeated it, blaming Britain and the United States for the calamity that befell the Palestinians.

A second Arab obsession has been the question of justice and unfairness. Arab scholars have scarcely endeavored to find out what really took place in that war. Instead, they have elaborated extensively on the rightness of their own case and illegitimacy of the Israeli arguments. In these discussions, exact chronology, reliable sources and accurate arguments have been marginal.

There was no mass ethnic cleansing, the Arab League ordered all arabs to leave the area because the great Arab army was coming back to push the Jews into the sea. Even with the low numbers you claim that made up the Arab armies, They still outnumbered the fighters the Jews could muster.

As usual you distort the facts to suite your narrative. Talk about fabricated chestnuts from 1948, you have included them all in your Post.

I despise Holocaust deniers, and I equally despise the Palestinian Nakba deniers when 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948.

Maybe you should read your own source more carefully. It seems to disagree with you.

"The narratives agree on the existence of a pre-meditated Jewish scheme to expel the Palestinians (“Plan Dalet”). They also concur on the significance of the Deir Yassin massacre, on the Jews’ military superiority."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/isdf/text/gelber.html

Perhaps you will believe your own Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service’s document entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" dated 30 June 1948, but which wasn’t widely known until 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":...Here are the first 3:

1. Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.

2. The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).

3. Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Opening_of_archives

And then read Israel’s oldest newspaper Haartez May 2013, which shows the attempted cover up which you are still trying to deceive tvf readers with...par for the course from the Israeli apologist camp.

The file in the state archives contains clear evidence that the researchers at the time did not paint the full picture of Israel's role in creating the Palestinian refugee problem.

“ In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the “New Historians,” the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as “top secret.”

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/catastrophic-thinking-did-ben-gurion-try-to-rewrite-history.premium-1.524308

“Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees… while it is we who made them to leave… We brought disaster upon Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave… We have rendered them dispossessed… We have accustomed them to begging… We have participated in lowering their moral and social level… Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon… men, women and children – all this in service of political purposes…”

– Khaled al Azm, Syria’s Prime Minister after the 1948 war

“As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the [Arab Palestinian] people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property.” – bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957

“The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city…By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.”.

– Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, p. 25

“The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.”

– General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948

“The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.”

– Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31

“The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade… He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.”

– Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha’s successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951

“Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations…. It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.”

– Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963

“The existence of these refugees is a direct result of the Arab States’ opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.”

…The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some thirty thousand people, chiefly well-to-do-families.”

– Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948

“The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable”.

– by Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas), from the article titled: “What We Have Learned and What We Should Do”, published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

Research reported by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, stated “the majority of the Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, but that 68% left without seeing an Israeli soldier.”

“The Arab exodus from the villages was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews”

– Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953

[chuckd]

Yup, Palestinians know a lot about law-breaking. They can just look in any mirror - if there are any which aren't broken in Palestine.

....and the Tibetans. That's would be interesting, to see Tibetans hauling China off to Int'l court over human rights violations - like putting monks and nuns in prison for 25 years each, because they were caught with a 1" x 1" photo of the Dalai Lama in their tote bag.

The ICC can prosecute individuals accused of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes committed since 1 July 2002, when the Rome statute came into force.

The UN can instigate a prosecution, but that runs the risk of one of the super powers vetoing it.

Alternatively, the court can pursue an individual only if crimes were committed on the territory of a state party – one that has signed and ratified the Rome statute – or by a citizen of such a state. Israel has signed but not ratified the treaty.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/palestinian-president-international-criminal-court

Perhaps Israel and the US should ratify the ICC treaty themselves if they wish to prosecute any Palestinians.

Neither Kurdistan nor Tibet are UN member states, so can't prosecute.

ABBAS' request to join the ICC in effect from 13 June 2014. So the ICC cannot investigate anything prior to that date.

in your dreams. A member state can prosecute any crime since 2002.

Why are the Israelis panicking? Got something to hide?

You don't even keep up with the news. So don't make claims you know nothing about.

Riyadh Mansour told a group of reporters that Palestine’s formal acceptance of the court’s jurisdiction starting June 13, 2014 gives prosecutor Fatou Bensouda a green light to take up the question of alleged war crimes on Palestinian territory without waiting for Palestine to formally become a member of the court on April 1.

Read more: Palestinians say ICC can examine war crimes allegations now | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-say-icc-can-examine-war-crimes-allegations-now/#ixzz3OIey8tJX

Mahmoud Abbas agreed to the start date when he filed the petition for ICC membership.

From the link above:

"President Mahmoud Abbas submitted the declaration to the ICC registrar on Jan. 1, accepting the court’s jurisdiction over its territories, going back to June 13, 2014. That’s the day after three Israeli teens were abducted and killed by Hamas militants in the West Bank, an attack that set off events that culminated in the Gaza war."

Read more: Palestinians say ICC can examine war crimes allegations now | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-say-icc-can-examine-war-crimes-allegations-now/#ixzz3OIodVK8G

This is the pertinent portion:

"accepting the court’s jurisdiction over its territories, going back to June 13, 2014."

[Ulysses G.]

It is good to see that someone has the energy to refute a certain members constant dishonest posts. I tire of it after a while and no matter how often he is proven wrong, he just keeps posting the same discredited nonsense.

[Morch]

Then the Palestinians are not smart enough to realize that shooting rockets at civilians, sponsoring suicide bombers and using your own people as human shields are all war crimes.

The Palestinians are being systematically destroyed so why not take Israel who is equally culpable with them? Israel wishes to deny to the Palestinians the very same method they used to become Israel and if anyone complains they are accuses of anti-Semitism.

Wrong. The Palestinians agreed to the Oslo accords which means that they can not bypass negotiations with Israel and go to the UN directly. If they do so, they negate agreements that benefit them. By the way, the Palestinians were offered the same deal that Israel was by the UN. They turned it down, declared war on Israel and LOST. That is why they are in the pickle that they are today.

What benefits will the Palestinians lose other than temporary theft of taxes and other collective punishments?

22 years of negotiations has produced zilch progress for the Palestinians. Israel will continue stalling for another 22 years unless they get a kick up the butt from the ICC, UN, and EU. The main impetus for change is of course US opinion and actions. But they will do nothing. They are in the pockets of AIPAC. Best for the Palestinians to cut US lose and appeal to pressure from the rest of the world.

Why are you always living in the past? Your 1948 myth has been debunked many times. The Palestinians justifiably rejected the Partition plan giving 61% of Palestine to illegal Jewish immigrants who were a mere 31% of the population.

Haganah and the Jewish terrorist gangs ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians long before the Arab armies supposedly came to their rescue. They had to when you do the math. How could the Jewish state still be a democracy when the majority would be Palestinians?

And the so called 5 invading Arab armies was a sham due to Israeli and US bribery and conniving. Yes, the Palestinian lost to a far more powerful, better equipped and organized Jewish army.

Just because the bully wins, doesn’t make it right.

Is this January's talking point?

Anyone with a mediocre sense of perspective and less heavy on drama could simply compare what the Palestinians had before the Oslo Accords and what they have now. That they are still far from achieving their goals, that things did not develop as good as they should have, or that the everyday experience of living with Israeli occupation is not a happy happy joy joy thing - all do not mean that things were better for the Palestinians prior to signing the Oslo Agreements and setting up the PA.

The usual one-sided laying of all the blame for negotiations failure is also nonsensical. Ignoring violations of agreements were never endemic to Palestinians or Israelis is either misinformed or dishonest. Israel's actions do not happen in a vacuum, Israeli domestic political situation does not exist in a vacuum. Repeatedly portraying the Palestinians as alternately peace-loving folk or as passive players who bear no responsibility for their actions is very convenient while making certain arguments.

The decisive opinion voiced, that the Palestinians should "lose" the USA, and rely instead on the ICC, UN and the EU sounds like something which the Palestinian leadership may say, but doubts may exist as to the measure of which they believe this notion. For better or for worse, the USA is top dog - going to the ICC, EU and UN for support are second best options. The idea, as far as I can tell, is not to actually disengage from the USA, but to apply pressure by implying it is on the cards. There is very little to be actually gained by pushing the USA away or pushing it too far.

As for "living in the past" - I would say that the pseudo-historic lectures given on these topics are usually lacking in accuracy and objectivity, but to balance exhibit a lot of cherry picking, agenda driven nonsense - which usually got very little to do with the OP.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Morch]

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

<snip>

Every time we start discussing a contemporary issue, you dig up your old fabricated chestnuts from 1948, sometimes earlier.

I don’t know whether your actions are desperado deflection or deliberate to lead posters away from the main issues into off topic areas.

It is quite an impressive fit that you are able to post something like that while keeping the virtual equivalent of a straight face. Not that UG and others are not at it, but if there was an award for derailing Israeli-Palestine discussions with lengthy off-topic posts I think there would be little competition. Admittedly, there is also a couple of other derailing variations - the "visions of the future", in which we get a glimpse of things to come, and the other in which we are harangued by essays on the imagined vile nature of Zionism.

Nonetheless, I can’t leave your lies unchallenged.

Oh, the drama! "Once more unto the breach...." .

[Ulysses G.]

At least my off topic posts are usually mercifully brief.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

Why do you persist with the dishonest posts? .

...because they aren't dishonest

Your credibility was destroyed on this forum months ago.

Says who...you and your Israeli apologist buddies? Well you would say that wouldn't you? Count the likes.

It's much easier for you to shoot the messenger than answer with rational, sourced arguments

Well, ruling out dishonesty does not rule out being misinformed, wrong or having a narrow agenda driven view of relates issues.

As for credibility - repeating the same posts over and over again, as if things were not discussed on previous topics, and were never shown to be less than correct, is not the same thing as being credible. Cherry picking the bits of history fitting the agenda, or ignoring current events and process which are inconvenient does not do much for credibility as well. But, these things aside, what does the number of "likes" got to do with credibility?

As for shooting the messenger, isn't it the case that when presented by the rather bleak, if factual, sorry state of affairs and the tremendous, but real, difficulties making some rosy visions of the future to be a mirage - that you find fault with whomever points these out?

I would say that when presented with rational arguments the apparent course of action noticeable is to go off on one, rather than actually relate to the issue at hand.

[Morch]

There was no "agreed five years", except as an interim period, before negotiations would determine a final peace agreement to resolve the major issues: final borders, security arrangements, Jerusalem, whether the Palestinians would have an independent state, Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and Palestinian refugees' claims to land and property left behind when they fled Israel. None of those things have been determined and the Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day.

This is just what Israel claims but it wouldn't stand up in any court which is why the Palestinians are going in the direction they are and why Israel is so fervently opposed to ANY independent judication on the matter.

The EU seems to think that Israel is still obligated to comply with the Oslo Accords:

EU foreign policy chief: Israel violating Oslo Accords by freezing Palestinian tax revenues

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635626

Can't have it both ways.

[Ulysses G.]

This is not one of your religious threads where you can post silly theories ad nauseam, because there are no facts involved. You simply not know what you are talking about. The Palestinians and Israel are both still bound by the Oslo Accords to this day. The EU's foreign policy chief brought up a possible violation of the Oslo Accords just a few days ago and he is not Israeli.

So let us say I am wrong and you are right.

We don't need to just "say" it. It is a fact. Both the Palestinians and Israel are still subject to the Oslo Accords and you posted erroneous information claiming otherwise.