Thai animal welfare activist urges phase-out of elephant rides

[cumgranosalum]

Unless Thailand reviews its policies towards animal and wildlife abuse, it is likely that many of the "quality" tourists they crave will not consider coming here.

this month they are to account to CITES for their inaction over the ivory trade - it will be interesting to see the response.....of course it probably won't make the Thai Language media......not "Happy" enough.

[Basil B]

I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels...

As long as the animals are treated well, for those do-gooder Christians who want the riding of animals banned maybe they should read the bible more, did not Mary ride a donky? did not the 3 wise men ride camels? did not Jesus ride a donkey?

If do-gooders really want to help, maybe set up a charity that monitors the elephant tourist attractions and issue a seal of approval to the well managed ones, without tourist incomes

[craigt3365]

I just posted this in another thread. The video is worth watching for those who think elephants training is harmless. It's not. Also, the articles have some good info. Specifically, how elephant rides are decimating the Asian elephant population here.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/806995-tat-promotes-worlds-first-elephant-ride-alms-giving-in-surin/#entry9165136

[Pinot]

This is a difficult issue. Some very misinformed posts above. I was glad to see Barnum and Bailys Circus will retire their herd (40 elephants) in the US because of animal rights issues.

Coconuts Bangkok has a piece on there today about elephants. The money quote by a knowledgeable animal rights activist:

She warned that pushed out of the public eye entirely through a tourism ban, the elephants would suffer much worse harm.

“It is better to keep working elephants and issues related to their welfare visible, in the eye of animal-loving tourists and general public,” she said. “It is important to keep up pressure on elephant ride operators to clean up their act.”

[craigt3365]

This is a difficult issue. Some very misinformed posts above. I was glad to see Barnum and Bailys Circus will retire their herd (40 elephants) in the US because of animal rights issues.

Coconuts Bangkok has a piece on there today about elephants. The money quote by a knowledgeable animal rights activist:

She warned that pushed out of the public eye entirely through a tourism ban, the elephants would suffer much worse harm.

“It is better to keep working elephants and issues related to their welfare visible, in the eye of animal-loving tourists and general public,” she said. “It is important to keep up pressure on elephant ride operators to clean up their act.”

Yes, there are 2 different issues. The kidnapping of babies from the wild to feed the tourism demand...and then what to do with all those who are already in the system. Due to corruption here, the first is hard to elimate. But with strong enforcement (DNA tests, etc) it can be done. But it means it will eventually be an extinct tourist attraction. Unless they are allowed to break babies born in captivity. Elephants are not domesticated animals.

[cumgranosalum]

I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels...

As long as the animals are treated well, for those do-gooder Christians who want the riding of animals banned maybe they should read the bible more, did not Mary ride a donky? did not the 3 wise men ride camels? did not Jesus ride a donkey?

stdas0148.jpg

If do-gooders really want to help, maybe set up a charity that monitors the elephant tourist attractions and issue a seal of approval to the well managed ones, without tourist incomes

"I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels..." - what's it got to do with you?

the fact that you lump elephants together with other 3 other types of animals all of which are all domesticated, suggests that you have no idea WHY elephants shouldn't be ridden. FYI - elephants are not domesticated.

[cumgranosalum]

"f do-gooders really want to help, maybe set up a charity that monitors the elephant tourist attractions and issue a seal of approval to the well managed ones, without tourist incomes'

There are many organisations that give advice about what to look for - and what to avoid - when seeking and "encounter" with elephants...if one ca be bothered to look......... however it would be very difficult to set up a worldwide reference to include every elephant camp......however nice they would be.

However, it is fairly obvious from the language of the above poster that rather than research te topic he/she is quite happy to make a comment based on nothing more than a perceived stereotype - "do-gooder" - the fact that these views are based on extensive scientific knowledge and research seems to have gone unnoticed by Mr Brush...or at least he's not letting them get in the way of his own prejudices.

[cumgranosalum]

Here's a site that helps tourists to decide and lays out some pretty good reasons for not riding elephants.

http://beforetheybook.worldanimalprotection.org/en-gb/?gclid=Cj0KEQjwifWnBRCB5PT57KSVw-kBEiQASV7aRHwrtHhbpeAuZoNydZRGND70f24lkTpB1AHtbAn0xA8aAjX28P8HAQ#video

Why riding an elephant is cruel

To ‘train’ an elephant, they are taken from their mothers at an early age and their spirit is broken through both physical and psychological pain, including isolation, starvation, beating and being chained up in small enclosures.

Elephants are highly intelligent and socially developed animals and can develop post-traumatic stress disorders. In elephant camps they are prevented from forming social relationships with each other - this is hugely damaging to their physical and psychological wellbeing.

Contrary to public perception, elephants are one of the most dangerous animals to handle. Bull hooks (pointy and sharp metal hooks on long sticks) are used during rides with tourists to maintain control of the elephants, which can result in serious injuries such as infected sores and cuts.

Most elephants have very little access to veterinary care, meaning that a relatively minor illness can quickly become a big problem, causing unnecessary suffering."

[cumgranosalum]

This is a difficult issue. Some very misinformed posts above. I was glad to see Barnum and Bailys Circus will retire their herd (40 elephants) in the US because of animal rights issues.

Coconuts Bangkok has a piece on there today about elephants. The money quote by a knowledgeable animal rights activist:

She warned that pushed out of the public eye entirely through a tourism ban, the elephants would suffer much worse harm.

“It is better to keep working elephants and issues related to their welfare visible, in the eye of animal-loving tourists and general public,” she said. “It is important to keep up pressure on elephant ride operators to clean up their act.”

said earlier, this isn't actually a valid argument - it is primarily dichotomising the issues and suggesting that if riding is banned tourism will cease - Africa has a thriving tourist trade and has NVER (until recently) offered elephant rides.

the truth is that people will still pay to see elephants even if they can't ride them - there are parks in both Thailand and Laos that will acknowledge this.

Thailand has a population of elephants left over from logging - this population is , or rather should be - ageing but due to the lucrative nature to the elephant business, breeding has taken place and of course smuggling.

the fact is that the tourist trade has NOT looked after elephants well at all and there needs to be a new approach that stamps out exploitation. I firmly believe that the Thai government has a role to play in this and not simply wash there hands and leave it to the private sector to sort out....because they won't.

[hughben]

Elephant shows like them performing tricks and playing football or whatever are just as inane,

I assume they have those in Thailand?

They even have them in China now.

[Basil B]

I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels...

As long as the animals are treated well, for those do-gooder Christians who want the riding of animals banned maybe they should read the bible more, did not Mary ride a donky? did not the 3 wise men ride camels? did not Jesus ride a donkey?

stdas0148.jpg

If do-gooders really want to help, maybe set up a charity that monitors the elephant tourist attractions and issue a seal of approval to the well managed ones, without tourist incomes

"I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels..." - what's it got to do with you?

the fact that you lump elephants together with other 3 other types of animals all of which are all domesticated, suggests that you have no idea WHY elephants shouldn't be ridden. FYI - elephants are not domesticated.

Elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years as a beat of burden.

Although known for millennia by many of the peoples of Africa and Asia, elephants’ introduction to the classical West came around 331 B.C., when Alexander the Great encountered war elephants as his army swept from Persia into India. At the river Jhelum, in present-day Pakistan, Alexander defeated the Indian ruler Porus, who was said to have 100,000 war elephants in his army. Ever since, whether revered as a divine symbol of luck and wisdom, used as unique tools of diplomacy between leaders, deployed to intimidate opposing armies or put on display in the service of status or science, elephants have loomed large in the historical record. Check out 10 notable examples.

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/10-famous-elephants-from-history

[craigt3365]

With all due respect, elephants are not and can not be domesticated. They've been used as beasts of burden for a long time. But only after being broken. In very cruel ways. Even after the breaking process, they are still very dangerous animals. We report on quite a few deaths and injuries here every year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_elephants

Elephants in captivity are in most cases Asian elephants captured in the wild. Selective breeding of elephants is impractical due to their long reproductive cycle, so there are no domestic breeds. African bush elephants and African forest elephants are less amenable to training.

Asian elephants are an endangered species due to this.

[craigt3365]

Another interesting article:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/ac774e/ac774e06.htm

‘Domestic’, ‘domesticated’, or ‘captive’?

The man-elephant relationship is quite strange. While most of the domestic animals now most highly attuned to man (the dog, the cat, the water buffalo, etc.) have wild forebears which are largely untameable, many wild-caught elephants quickly and easily form intimate bonds with their keepers even though their wild temperament has never been modified through selective breeding. Some elephants form such warm and affectionate bonds with man as to deceive the observer into thinking that this animal must have been made truly domestic. Many other elephants in domesticity, however, remain unremittingly wild, hostile to man and ready to kill him at every chance. Clearly, a domesticated elephant is simply a wild animal in chains - but a wild animal frequently gentle and intelligent enough to be totally trustworthy as a baby-sitter to watch over human infants. What adjective best describes such animals when kept by man, particularly in relation to their wild congeners?

[cumgranosalum]

I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels...

As long as the animals are treated well, for those do-gooder Christians who want the riding of animals banned maybe they should read the bible more, did not Mary ride a donky? did not the 3 wise men ride camels? did not Jesus ride a donkey?

stdas0148.jpg

If do-gooders really want to help, maybe set up a charity that monitors the elephant tourist attractions and issue a seal of approval to the well managed ones, without tourist incomes

"I have no problem with people riding elephants, horses, donkeys and camels..." - what's it got to do with you?

the fact that you lump elephants together with other 3 other types of animals all of which are all domesticated, suggests that you have no idea WHY elephants shouldn't be ridden. FYI - elephants are not domesticated.

Elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years as a beat of burden.

Although known for millennia by many of the peoples of Africa and Asia, elephants’ introduction to the classical West came around 331 B.C., when Alexander the Great encountered war elephants as his army swept from Persia into India. At the river Jhelum, in present-day Pakistan, Alexander defeated the Indian ruler Porus, who was said to have 100,000 war elephants in his army. Ever since, whether revered as a divine symbol of luck and wisdom, used as unique tools of diplomacy between leaders, deployed to intimidate opposing armies or put on display in the service of status or science, elephants have loomed large in the historical record. Check out 10 notable examples.

http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/10-famous-elephants-from-history

Elephants are NOT domesticated. Get up to speed on your information before displaying your lack of knowledge.

Beasts of burden? This implies carrying - which in general they don't normally do....they pull and push but seldom carry heavy loads unless it is some human cargo.

So please check your history, sources and the science of domestication - it is clear that one search on Google is NOT sufficient . - Do you seriously think that one web site has any relevance to the the topic in hand - the argument against riding the animals today????? All it is, is a series of anecdotes about elephants in history - you'll also notice it doesn't include the word "domesticated" anywhere.

As for the use of elephants in military campaigns, it is quite clear you are grossly un-researched in their uses......and do you seriously think that this use justifies the riding of elephants in the 21st century??

PS - it seems you STILL don't appreciate the difference between riding an elephant and a horse or donkey.

Edited March 10, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[metisdead]

Nonsense posts and replies have been removed.

[The manic]

Animals do not have rights. They do not have responsibilities. Animal rights rather like the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' is made up nonsense that is the promoted by extremists.Animal rights activists planted bombs in the UK, terrorised small family butchers and threw paint at women. I strongly object to these extreme views being promoted as normal or accepted by most people. However, they are imposed on people.I say: bring back the elephants to the streets of Thailand.

[Maestro]

It is indeed difficult to imagine an animal filing a complaint about a violation of its rights. However, Thailand’s Criminal Code provides for punishment of whomever mistreats an animal:

Section 381
Whoever, cruelly ill-treats or kills an animal with unnecessary sufferings, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one month or fined not exceeding one thousand Baht, or both.

Section 382
Whoever, overworking the animal unreasonably or using it to do the unsuitable work on account of it to be ill, old or young, shall be imprisoned not out of one month or fined not out of one thousand Baht, or both.

A new “Animal Welfare Bill” entered into force on 27 December 2014 and there has been a recent news report about two men having been charged under this law.

Two men arrested in Nong Khai province were the first people to be charged under the new Animal Welfare Bill, which took effect on December 27, 2014.

Tha Bo police summoned Khamdee Khottha, 50, early yesterday after an allegation that he had tortured and injured a pet dog belonging to his neighbour Jomsri Khamphukaew.

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/789445-two-men-face-animal-cruelty-charges-in-nong-khai/

[cumgranosalum]

It is indeed difficult to imagine an animal filing a complaint about a violation of its rights. However, Thailand’s Criminal Code provides for punishment of whomever mistreats an animal:

Section 381

Whoever, cruelly ill-treats or kills an animal with unnecessary sufferings, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one month or fined not exceeding one thousand Baht, or both.

Section 382

Whoever, overworking the animal unreasonably or using it to do the unsuitable work on account of it to be ill, old or young, shall be imprisoned not out of one month or fined not out of one thousand Baht, or both.

A new “Animal Welfare Bill” entered into force on 27 December 2014 and there has been a recent news report about two men having been charged under this law.

Two men arrested in Nong Khai province were the first people to be charged under the new Animal Welfare Bill, which took effect on December 27, 2014.

Tha Bo police summoned Khamdee Khottha, 50, early yesterday after an allegation that he had tortured and injured a pet dog belonging to his neighbour Jomsri Khamphukaew.

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/789445-two-men-face-animal-cruelty-charges-in-nong-khai/

There are virtually NO LAWS to protect animals in Thailand and they are enforced even less.

The Thai criminal code is ancient and is seldom used to protect animals.....it is not actually suitable for most cases

The recent ""Animals Welfare" act is only concerned with domestic animals - it remains to be seen if it will be used to any great effect for the protection of captive elephants.

most animal welfare orgs claim it goes nowhere near far enough to be effective.

[The manic]

Of course cruelty is to be deplored. But what the animal rights mob want is beyond the current law. Out of misplaced sentimentality, anthropomorphic projection and an inherently puritanical outlook they wish to impose their view by banning everything they disssprove of. Banning not modifying or making good poor practice. The Animal rightist are extremists and should be treated with contempt.

[cumgranosalum]

Of course cruelty is to be deplored. But what the animal rights mob want is beyond the current law. Out of misplaced sentimentality, anthropomorphic projection and an inherently puritanical outlook they wish to impose their view by banning everything they disssprove of. Banning not modifying or making good poor practice. The Animal rightist are extremists and should be treated with contempt.

firstly WHAT law????

and I think that the scientific examination of treatment of animals is NOT anthropomorphic ...in fact it is anthropomorphism that allows people to look at undomesticated animals and decide they are "happy" being ridden or as you have suggested, working the streets.

you are showing a naive obsession with your own stereotypes and ignoring the science. - check out te message not your ow misconceptions of the messengers

[BSJ]

" or performing somersaults, " I really want to see that!

There are obviously bad elephant handlers but the ones I have seen are not mean to their elephant.

I think there's a lot of 'over reaction' from some posters.

But I hope the bad apples can be routed out of the elephant industry and some common sense rules are bought into use to regulate the industry.

[cumgranosalum]

" or performing somersaults, " I really want to see that!

There are obviously bad elephant handlers but the ones I have seen are not mean to their elephant.

I think there's a lot of 'over reaction' from some posters.

But I hope the bad apples can be routed out of the elephant industry and some common sense rules are bought into use to regulate the industry.

I doubt if your personal observations can be regarded as anything more than anecdotal and in fact seem to suggest you know little of "handling' and what this entails. Ever been hit with a bull hook???

[cumgranosalum]

Of course cruelty is to be deplored. But what the animal rights mob want is beyond the current law. Out of misplaced sentimentality, anthropomorphic projection and an inherently puritanical outlook they wish to impose their view by banning everything they disssprove of. Banning not modifying or making good poor practice. The Animal rightist are extremists and should be treated with contempt.

a while back you were advocating cruelty...what's brought about this catharsis?

[The manic]

I have never advocated cruelty to animals. I just disagree with the Animal Liberation front and their political wing, the animal rights movement who are extremists exploiting people and misrepresenting the relationship between animals and humans. The campaign against elephants and their keepers is part of a broader campaign against freedom of choice. Ultimately they are the worst kind of bleeding heart liberals heavily informed by an authoritarian streak. We need rescuing from them!

Edited March 14, 2015 by The manic

[cumgranosalum]

I have never advocated cruelty to animals. I just disagree with the Animal Liberation front and their political wing, the animal rights movement who are extremists exploiting people and misrepresenting the relationship between animals and humans. The campaign against elephants and their keepers is part of a broader campaign against freedom of choice. Ultimately they are the worst kind of bleeding heart liberals heavily informed by an authoritarian streak. We need rescuing from them!

I'd love to know how you think the ALF is involved in this.

there's nothing extreme about the policies advocated to improve the lot of elephants in Thailand iti is straightforward science.

furthermore you keep referring to animals and their "keepers" yet I don't think you have any idea how this operates in Thailand. yet you still seem to think you can comment on it. Lets make it clear, there is NO campaign AGAINST elephants.

As for advocating cruelty....how do you justify your earlier comment ".I say: bring back the elephants to the streets of Thailand."?

Edited March 18, 2015 by cumgranosalum